Formerly DT: COVID-19 - Featuring Lots of Politics, now CR because political talk not going away

[Hmbre97 6297]

https://www.clickondetroit.com/health/2021/04/07/michigan-has-highest-number-of-covid-cases-in-the-nation/

K-12 schools top the list of outbreak locations with high schools being particularly problematic.

sEnD tHe KiDs BaCk To ScHoOl!

[Guest Lobo]

Yeah, we haven't learned much about proactive measures to prevent Covid-19 infection in 15 long months.  I would at least have thought we might at least have learned some perfunctory geographic knowledge about country along the way. 

The concept of a "State" is important to Federalism and the Constitution, but not terribly relevant to an airborne disease.  It's not about states, it was about a national plan to be deployed in every corner of the nation.  It was never about people per square mile, it was about people per square foot.  If it was, Boston and Miami and Dallas would have decimated.  Instead, it was simply about where are people gathering in ways they shouldn't---and every state of whatever size or political tilt has things called homes and things called buildings and things called stores.  We have proved time and time again, the heat didn't kill this fucking thing.  North States, Blue States, Warm States, Cool States, Red States, South States.  States just fucked this up because they had no direction from above and they had disparate implementation below them at the county/city levels. 

And here we go with another binary factor---Uh, States with stricter measures are seeing spikes, that must be why.  Well, then South Korea would have had the worst surge of anywhere on Earth as it had the strictest measures of any nation on Earth---by far.  And the most casual restrictions, or no restrictions, would lead to declining cases then right?  I would think the most lax place in America for restrictions was the White House in the Autumn of 2020.  And wasn't there a few dozen cases out of just a few hundred people?  

The continued mitigating factor in all of this is not about fucking state boundaries.  How can it be?  It's about the individual behavior of people.  You can talk about mask mandates, % restrictions on bars, bike rallies, nursing homes, sporting events, curbside pickup, whatever you want.  The end-all, be-all of this thing was "Are people being stupid and gathering in mid-size groups indoors and/or large-size groups outdoors?"  Places where people aren't being fucking assholes, the rates go down.  Places where people are being selfish, the rates go up.  Thankfully, different parts of the country took turns being stupid...so we weren't completely fucked in every single corner of the nation.  But make no mistake, we were all selfish and stupid and certain points of this pandemic.  And the vaccine process is the final question on the stupid exam.  

Edited April 8, 2021 by Lobo

[Johnny Sack 8397]

Why is it a big deal if K-12 kids get the virus?  It is a nothingburger for them.

People who are at risk from the virus should already have the vaccine, which makes the virus a nothingburger for them.

If you are at risk and for some reason have not been able to get the virus, figure out a way to get the vaccine and keep your ass home until you do.

[Anastasis 23394]

14 minutes ago, Hmbre97 said:

https://www.clickondetroit.com/health/2021/04/07/michigan-has-highest-number-of-covid-cases-in-the-nation/

sEnD tHe KiDs BaCk To ScHoOl!

People age 20 to 29 and 30 to 39 have the highest case rates.

K-12 schools top the list of outbreak locations with high schools being particularly problematic. 

 

Makes sense. 

 

Also, this doesn't appear to have anything to do with in class education. 

Since January, basketball, hockey and wrestling have had the highest number of cases and clusters with 376 cases linked to basketball and 256 to hockey. That includes school-affiliated teams and club and travel teams.

Edited April 8, 2021 by Anastasis

[gmr548 16517]

In my experience here in TX, big cities and urban areas tend to take COVID seriously, and the smaller towns tend to have more political flags flying than facemasks on faces. I wonder what the breakdown is geographically on the Michigan case data

The epicenter on a per capita basis has been the thumb of the mitten, a rural area, but at this point it’s errybody. It’s weird because while the B117 variant is estimated to be dominant there at this point, their estimated share of cases isn’t out of line with other areas - red, blue, urban, or rural - that aren’t experiencing similar explosions. Either those estimates are way off or there’s something else afoot. Really weird honestly.

[DaysOff 7853]

Because every new infection is a chance for a mutation and new variant. Not to mention bringing said infection home to the family. It's also not a nothing burger for every teenager. Some do end up as long haulers with neurological problems.

[Chewbacca 7730]

Because every new infection is a chance for a mutation and new variant. Not to mention bringing said infection home to the family. It's also not a nothing burger for every teenager. Some do end up as long haulers with neurological problems.

Yep. I don't worry about my kids dying from COVID, but i do worry about long term effects that we are seeing in many, even those that had mild cases.

[Hmbre97 6297]

2 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

People age 20 to 29 and 30 to 39 have the highest case rates.

K-12 schools top the list of outbreak locations with high schools being particularly problematic. 

 

Makes sense. 

Makes total sense when you think about all those school kids all living together on their own and there is no way they could be bringing it home to other people/family members. Makes total sense.

[Poe It Up 126]

I consider it a borderline miracle that I never caught this virus. Hell, I don’t have any friends or family that have caught it either. It’s bizarre to be in pandemic and not know anyone affected by it. My kids have been in preschool since last summer and they’ve only had one teacher miss time due to covid, I have to think transmission between young kids is essentially zero. 

[BabaYaga 15212]

Just now, Poe It Up said:

I have to think transmission between young kids is essentially zero. 

That's been proven to be essentially true via studies

[Anastasis 23394]

3 minutes ago, Hmbre97 said:

Makes total sense when you think about all those school kids all living together on their own and there is no way they could be bringing it home to other people/family members. Makes total sense.

Schools, especially elementary schools, are just not a site where wide spread outbreaks are occurring.  The Michigan definition for a school-based outbreak is extremely low, requiring basically two cases, and doesn't even restrict them to being on campus.  

[Hmbre97 6297]

8 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

People age 20 to 29 and 30 to 39 have the highest case rates.

K-12 schools top the list of outbreak locations with high schools being particularly problematic. 

 

Makes sense. 

 

Also, this doesn't appear to have anything to do with in class education. 

Since January, basketball, hockey and wrestling have had the highest number of cases and clusters with 376 cases linked to basketball and 256 to hockey. That includes school-affiliated teams and club and travel teams.

Except you left off a sentence before what you quoted

Quote

K-12 schools top the list of outbreak locations with high schools being particularly problematic. There is also concern about youth sports. Since January, basketball, hockey and wrestling have had the highest number of cases and clusters with 376 cases linked to basketball and 256 to hockey. That includes school-affiliated teams and club and travel teams.

So no, that is not saying it "doesn't appear to have anything to do with in class education". It is saying it's an additional concern...

[lmao 178]

1 hour ago, GRHorn said:

 

This thing has been too politicized for either side to admit a mistake & correct course. 

[pearlandhorn 3269]

7 minutes ago, Poe It Up said:

I consider it a borderline miracle that I never caught this virus. Hell, I don’t have any friends or family that have caught it either. It’s bizarre to be in pandemic and not know anyone affected by it. My kids have been in preschool since last summer and they’ve only had one teacher miss time due to covid, I have to think transmission between young kids is essentially zero. 

COVID made a run through my kid's preschool in January after the holidays.  Teacher came to work on a Friday and tested positive the next Monday after she woke up feeling bad.  My son tested positive 1/15, my wife tested positive 1/21 and we were both sick for a week.  He had a snotty nose and coughed 3 times for a day.  My wife and I were down for about 10 days.

It sucked.  Daycare was closed for two weeks as over 50% of the parents whose kids attend the daycare were sick.  At least, that's what the owner of the daycare told me.  We've had no issues with the daycare since they reopened.  I know that one can argue "well, maybe the parents/kids got sick somewhere else and not through the daycare worker."  You may be correct, no way to know.

Edited April 8, 2021 by pearlandhorn

[dcar00 14035]

29 minutes ago, GRHorn said:

Sounds like they need to lock down harder. 

4 masks should do it.

[Hmbre97 6297]

3 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Schools, especially elementary schools, are just not a site where wide spread outbreaks are occurring.  The Michigan definition for a school-based outbreak is extremely low, requiring basically two cases, and doesn't even restrict them to being on campus.  

A 3 second google search kinda shits on your theory but whatever. 

[Kyle 207]

8 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

That's been proven to be essentially true via studies

The anti-science crowd continues to ignore the data about school transmission rates.

Edited April 8, 2021 by Kyle

[dcar00 14035]

3 minutes ago, Hmbre97 said:

A 3 second google search kinda shits on your theory but whatever. 

so 4 per school?

[Cheeseweasel 26437]

3 minutes ago, Hmbre97 said:

A 3 second google search kinda shits on your theory but whatever. 

The phrase surge is racist. Please report this article for retraining.

[Hmbre97 6297]

5 minutes ago, pearlandhorn said:

COVID made a run through my kid's preschool in January after the holidays.  Teacher came to work on a Friday and tested positive the next Monday after she woke up feeling bad.  My son tested positive 1/15, my wife tested positive 1/21 and we were both sick for a week.  He had a snotty nose and coughed 3 times for a day.  My wife and I were down for about 10 days.

It sucked.  Daycare was closed for two weeks as over 50% of the parents whose kids attend the daycare were sick.  At least, that's what the owner of the daycare told me.  We've had no issues with the daycare since they reopened.  I know that one can argue "well, maybe the parents/kids got sick somewhere else and not through the daycare worker."  You may be correct, no way to know.

I believe you're wrong, sir. I've been assured many times in this thread that the chance of kids spreading covid is essentially zero. 

[dcar00 14035]

Just now, Cheeseweasel said:

The phrase surge is racist. Please report this article for retraining.

I would call it a "cis-virus pressured increase event"

[Johnny Sack 8397]

Schools should be open.  We have plenty of data on it.  The costs to society of keeping them closed, especially to the most vulnerable, is criminal.  But the teacher's unions:

[Anastasis 23394]

1 minute ago, Hmbre97 said:

A 3 second google search kinda shits on your theory but whatever. 

A correlation between the number of cases observed among school aged children and the extent of community transmission is not a particularly compelling argument related to in school transmission, but congrats for using google.

Here is the Michigan tracking of school outbreaks.  The vast majority of cases are coming from Colleges.

https://www.michigan.gov/coronavirus/0,9753,7-406-98163_98173_102480---,00.html

 

[Kyle 207]

5 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

so 4 per school?

teh science. #mathishard

[Kyle 207]

38 minutes ago, Lobo said:

Yeah, we haven't learned much about proactive measures to prevent Covid-19 infection in 15 long months.  I would at least have thought we might at least have learned some perfunctory geographic knowledge about country along the way. 

The concept of a "State" is important to Federalism and the Constitution, but not terribly relevant to an airborne disease.  It's not about states, it was about a national plan to be deployed in every corner of the nation.  It was never about people per square mile, it was about people per square foot.  If it was, Boston and Miami and Dallas would have decimated.  Instead, it was simply about where are people gathering in ways they shouldn't---and every state of whatever size or political tilt has things called homes and things called buildings and things called stores.  We have proved time and time again, the heat didn't kill this fucking thing.  North States, Blue States, Warm States, Cool States, Red States, South States.  States just fucked this up because they had no direction from above and they had disparate implementation below them at the county/city levels. 

And here we go with another binary factor---Uh, States with stricter measures are seeing spikes, that must be why.  Well, then South Korea would have had the worst surge of anywhere on Earth as it had the strictest measures of any nation on Earth---by far.  And the most casual restrictions, or no restrictions, would lead to declining cases then right?  I would think the most lax place in America for restrictions was the White House in the Autumn of 2020.  And wasn't there a few dozen cases out of just a few hundred people?  

The continued mitigating factor in all of this is not about fucking state boundaries.  How can it be?  It's about the individual behavior of people.  You can talk about mask mandates, % restrictions on bars, bike rallies, nursing homes, sporting events, curbside pickup, whatever you want.  The end-all, be-all of this thing was "Are people being stupid and gathering in mid-size groups indoors and/or large-size groups outdoors?"  Places where people aren't being fucking assholes, the rates go down.  Places where people are being selfish, the rates go up.  Thankfully, different parts of the country took turns being stupid...so we weren't completely fucked in every single corner of the nation.  But make no mistake, we were all selfish and stupid and certain points of this pandemic.  And the vaccine process is the final question on the stupid exam.  

Like limiting international air travel at the onset? Interesting ... 

[Cheeseweasel 26437]

17 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

A correlation between the number of cases observed among school aged children and the extent of community transmission is not a particularly compelling argument related to in school transmission, but congrats for using google.

Here is the Michigan tracking of school outbreaks.  The vast majority of cases are coming from Colleges.

https://www.michigan.gov/coronavirus/0,9753,7-406-98163_98173_102480---,00.html

 

I blame all those highschool girls who are dating college guys.

[Hmbre97 6297]

24 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

A correlation between the number of cases observed among school aged children and the extent of community transmission is not a particularly compelling argument related to in school transmission, but congrats for using google.

Here is the Michigan tracking of school outbreaks.  The vast majority of cases are coming from Colleges.

https://www.michigan.gov/coronavirus/0,9753,7-406-98163_98173_102480---,00.html

 

You're right. Cases are on the rise and cases at high schools are surging as well but since it's not a compelling argument of those case being outside or in school transmission, they should just keep doing what they're doing since it's working so well right now. 

[Anastasis 23394]

10 minutes ago, Hmbre97 said:

You're right. Cases are on the rise and cases at high schools are surging as well but since it's not a compelling argument of those case being outside or in school transmission, they should just keep doing what they're doing since it's working so well right now. 

Maybe they should require a mandatory 14 day in home quarantine for all unvaccinated 20-40 year olds. That would likely snuff this right out. 

[BabaYaga 15212]

2 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Maybe they should require a mandatory 14 day in home quarantine for all unvaccinated 20-40 year olds. That would likely snuff this right out. 

Not sure what the enforcement mechanism would look like or how effective it would be (in terms of keeping all those locked down)

[Anastasis 23394]

Just now, BabaYaga said:

Not sure what the enforcement mechanism would look like or how effective it would be (in terms of keeping all those locked down)

You're probably right.  It is of course much easier to just close school and disenfranchise children of education.  Never mind the inequity of the impact. Michigan can control their surge by shutting down a school where 2 unrelated kids got COVID. 

[Neonmoon 38127]

Is it possible there is a new variant in Michigan? Maybe the poor water quality multiplies the covid infection. Kidding. 

[GRHorn 105]

1 hour ago, Hmbre97 said:

https://www.clickondetroit.com/health/2021/04/07/michigan-has-highest-number-of-covid-cases-in-the-nation/

 

 

sEnD tHe KiDs BaCk To ScHoOl!

 

Are you saying they shouldn’t have gone back to school?

26 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Maybe they should require a mandatory 14 day in home quarantine for all unvaccinated 20-40 year olds. That would likely snuff this right out. 

Not happening it seems 

 

[bolverk 29405]

2 hours ago, Anastasis said:

I've been periodically checking the national heat map that NYTimes provides. I wish you could go back in time looking at that thing (like you once suggested) to watch the progression like a time lapse, but the initial outbreak for this current wave started in one of those counties near the thumb of the mitten and it's been spreading out from that point since.

Edit: Found one from the Mayo Clinic that covers the last 60 days. Their shading scheme is a little different, but over the last month you can seen those mitten thumb counties and a couple near the top of the mitten really take off. Pretty fascinating to watch it over time. 

https://www.mayoclinic.org/coronavirus-covid-19/map/michigan

Texas:

https://www.mayoclinic.org/coronavirus-covid-19/map/texas

US (states only unfortunately)

https://www.mayoclinic.org/coronavirus-covid-19/map

Edited April 8, 2021 by bolverk

[workswithseed 2037]

10 minutes ago, GRHorn said:

Are you saying they shouldn’t have gone back to school?

Not happening it seems 

 

Damn, she can't keep killing old people, but she can still try to cover it up.

[Bruno Sardine 147]

2 hours ago, Johnny Sack said:

The main problem is they negotiate with the same politicians they have bought off.  And since there is no profit requirement, there is no market check.  Just raise taxes because schools or police forces won't be going out of business.

If you go back and look at discussion and debate in the late 19^th century, when state constitutions across the country were altered to give municipal governments the power to level property taxes for the purpose of funding public schools, it isn’t that difficult to make the argument that many public school systems have run afoul of their original mandate. In any event, we can at least agree, surely, that public schools were established with the understanding that instruction would be in-person rather than conducted via the exchange of written materials through the postal system or, with advances in technology, conducted virtually.

Could a court be found that would buy the argument, this school system has violated the mandate that entitles it to take my taxes by refusing to provide in-person instruction, in the face of numerous scientific studies advocating for in-person instruction, even given the very serious risks posed by covid?

PS - what a pleasant place this is without a certain poo-flinger. People actually talking to each other without engaging in personal insults.

 

[Guest Lobo]

1 hour ago, Kyle said:

Like limiting international air travel at the onset? Interesting ... 

We let 40,000 people into our country with flights originating in Eastern Asia, primarily China, after the travel ban was implemented.  Nevermind the rest of the globe.

[Kyle 207]

1 minute ago, Lobo said:

We let 40,000 people into our country with flights originating in Eastern Asia, primarily China, after the travel ban was implemented.  Nevermind the rest of the globe.

Or Mexico.

[Guest Lobo]

There was a flight ban with Mexico last year?  I didn't hear about that.  But a "China Travel Ban" that allows for 40,000 people to still come from there after the fact isn't really a "Ban"  

[BabaYaga 15212]

1 hour ago, Lobo said:

There was a flight ban with Mexico last year?  I didn't hear about that.  But a "China Travel Ban" that allows for 40,000 people to still come from there after the fact isn't really a "Ban"  

Agreed it was not stringent enough and delayed to help salvage a trade deal that was in the works.  But at the time, it was savaged by his detractors as being xenophobic, racist, and every other "ism" you can think of.  Pelosi and Cuomo encouraged travel and to frequent certain parts of the city.  Basically just the opposite of anything stated by the administration.

Now the talking points are that it was not draconian enough (which I agree with), but you can't have it both ways.  If we are being intellectually honest, the left would have LOST.  THEIR.  MINDS had it been a total and complete lockdown.

#litterallyHitler

There's plenty of other criticisms of the administration, but this one is tenuous.  

[gmr548 16517]

Is it possible there is a new variant in Michigan? Maybe the poor water quality multiplies the covid infection. Kidding. 

A variant capable of wrecking Michigan so thoroughly and uniquely likely originated in Columbus.

[Cheeseweasel 26437]

2 minutes ago, gmr548 said:

A variant capable of wrecking Michigan so thoroughly and uniquely likely originated in Columbus.

[Guest Lobo]

Fair points.  There were way too many stupid people on both sides of the issue (IMO, flight bans during a global pandemic into a nation bounded by two massive oceans was reasonable considering that's how most people get into our country despite the southern border hyperbole; 100k via air each day versus 1k by illegal crossings at the South each day). 

But then people chimed in, "Yeah, but the 40,000 coming back from China are mostly Americans so it's cool."  Uh, not real sure the virus knows the passport of origin in the pocket of its host body.  It was fear-mongering to call it xenophobic.  It has been proven and acknowledged time and time again by both political parties that our most vulnerable points of entry for this country in terms of immigrants and illnesses are our vast network of international airports.  We should have dropped the hammer down.  You're a U.S. citizen and want to fly home from anywhere around the world, especially China...you spend 14 days in quarantine at the port of entry just like Vito Corleone at Ellis Island.  But it's all hindsight now, but we now realize that when my neighbor, my oldest daughter, and I were really sick in early February of 2020---it could have likely been that he had just returned from Wuhan on behalf of Applied Materials, right before the travel ban in late January.  I know a bunch of people think they had it early on, but the guy was literally in Wuhan in late January, came home and we all hung out one day with the kids and felt sick less than a week later for about two weeks.  But who knows?  

All I know is we aren't setup like most other Western Nations in terms of geography.  We don't have hundreds of land-based border crossings.  We don't have dozens of passenger-centric rail-lines connecting us with other countries.  We receive very few foreigners by boat for a country of our size.  Sure, some drugs and people get through on the southern border, but in the grand scheme, based on proportion, it's statistically very little.  Our most vulnerable points of entry are by far and away our international airports based on gross numbers and on per capita basis.  The Democrats and Republicans should have worked out a plan and a message, and gotten resources behind all of it.  We should have halted almost all international air travel for a few months.  If you were a U.S. national living abroad, you should have stayed there in a hotel or facility monitored by our embassy (at our government's expense which would have been pricey but a fuckton cheaper than what Covid19 ended up costing us), or come home and be quarantined at a government facility in the U.S.).  Everybody else shold have been locked out.  The virus still would have come in, but in far less of an initial wave and we could have ramped up everything in March instead of dicking around until July.  Anybody from either party who thinks that would have been draconian can get fucked, especially Pelosi.

[BabaYaga 15212]

20 minutes ago, Lobo said:

The Democrats and Republicans should have worked out a plan and a message, and gotten resources behind all of it

"Never let a good crisis go to waste"

[Anastasis 23394]

5 hours ago, InkaUtexas said:

Meanwhile, in Canada....

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-canada-sex-idUSKBN25T2Y9

“Like other activities during COVID-19 that involve physical closeness, there are some things you can do to minimize the risk of getting infected and spreading the virus,” she said.

Skip kissing, avoid face-to-face closeness, wear a mask that covers your mouth and nose, and monitor yourself and your partner for symptoms ahead of any sexual activity, Tam said.

“The lowest risk sexual activity during COVID-19 involves yourself alone,” she added.

[BabaYaga 15212]

26 minutes ago, gmr548 said:

A variant capable of wrecking Michigan so thoroughly and uniquely likely originated in Columbus.

[BabaYaga 15212]

3 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

The lowest risk sexual activity during COVID-19 involves yourself alone,” she added.

To quote the great and powerful Luther Campbell......Face down ass up! That's the way we like to fuck!

[Cheeseweasel 26437]

7 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Meanwhile, in Canada....

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-canada-sex-idUSKBN25T2Y9

“Like other activities during COVID-19 that involve physical closeness, there are some things you can do to minimize the risk of getting infected and spreading the virus,” she said.

Skip kissing, avoid face-to-face closeness, wear a mask that covers your mouth and nose, and monitor yourself and your partner for symptoms ahead of any sexual activity, Tam said.

“The lowest risk sexual activity during COVID-19 involves yourself alone,” she added.

[Guest Lobo]

1 minute ago, BabaYaga said:

"Never let a good crisis go to waste"

I remember a couple of years ago during the immigration policy debates of that time (I guess they're like war with Eastasia though, they're always going), one side pointed out that a huge influx of our "illegal immigrants" happen via overstayed visas by who arrived here by plane.  We know this because they never show up for their flight home.  And this is absolutely true, more people come here that way than by land/river crossings to our south.  So paying more attention to those airports, more robust reporting, more personnel, more tracking, more follow-up, etc.  All of that would drastically minimize illegal immigration via air travel to the U.S.  It was seen as progressive and effective at curbing tens of thousands of illegal extended stays/relocations in our country.  

But doing those same measures during Covid-19 early stages, to prevent thousands of spreader events effecting tens of millions of Americans at hundreds of international airports ?  Nah, that's racist!  

This thread has monday-morning quarterbacked the mitigation, the science, the politics, the messaging, the vaccination, etc.  All of it.  The virus found a nice home here because we are a massive country with a massive urge to politicize everything.  But one thing that I think that got overlooked was our network of airports and how people get into our country.  All we really ever heard was China Ban, China Ban, China Ban.  And then Xenophobe, Xenophobe, Xenophobe.  When in reality, the issue was much broader, more nuanced, and much more of a lethal threat than our political leaders on both sides realized. 

While we were dicking around with nursing homes, hoping for warm weather, looking for hand sanitizer, mask shaming, and ramping up toilet paper production.............our CBP who has been proudly and incompetently run for decades by both parties asked 100,000 international air travelers everyday for months, "Uh, do you have any fruits and vegetables with you?  What about sickness, do you feel sick at all?"  And that was pretty our mitigation strategy.  That's not partisan, that's just bureaucratic incompetence in its deadliest form.  

[Kyle 207]

4 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

One of funnier covid-related things has been some covid hysteria among lifestylers ... I was always like, "hum ... may not be the #1 concern here ..." 

[Anastasis 23394]

8 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

To quote the great and powerful Luther Campbell......Face down ass up! That's the way we like to fuck!

Yeah, unfortunately the ass up part of that equation is high risk for COVID transmission due to the fecal shedding. 

What a world.