Formerly DT: COVID-19 - Featuring Lots of Politics, now CR because political talk not going away

[Cheeseweasel 26,437]

12 minutes ago, BurntOrange&White said:

Why does it matter what someone chooses to do?

Welcome to 2021

[Captainant 27,447]

36 minutes ago, Message Board User said:

 

And the perception of a stolen election led thousands of fascists to attack our nation's capitol at the behest of a loser, despite it all being a big lie. What's your point? That low-information rubes are being manipulated into bad decisions by non-public health and non-democratic sources? 

[Enchubben 5,509]

27 minutes ago, BurntOrange&White said:

Why does it matter what someone chooses to do?

My favorite part of everything so far has been the white conservatives in Texas a few years ago making fun of California ant-vaxxers to only become anti vaxxers themselves now. 

ha. agreed. Same as the my body my choice crowd wanting to limit the freedoms of people not wanting to get vaccinated.  Hypocrisy be thy name in the 2020's.

[Don Johnson 4,745]

16 minutes ago, The Dog said:

Shaming and pressuring is the wrong approach and only causes people to dig in.

IMHO the best thing to say to someone like that is to simply ask them if they've talked to their doctor about it. If they haven't then suggest they ask him/her and leave it at that. 

I agree.  And have stated many times the best approach is to sell life returning to normal, but that seems so hard for some.

Also - and this is going to really annoy some - but if people really wanted to reach a certain segment of the population, they would hail this vaccine publicly as a huge Trump accomplishment.  I don't know exactly how, and egos would have to be impossibly set aside, but in fairytale land wouldn't it be great if Biden could enlist Trump to go on a roadshow encouraging his base to get the vaccine that he expedited and has taken himself?  That will never happen because Trump would stab Biden in the back the whole way and Biden would never want to act like he needed Trump's help, but if we could find a way somehow get in the ballpark of that happening.  Maybe Pence.  Or the Biden administration giving the Trump administration some kudos for Operation Warp Speed.  Something to make it not such a political divide. 

[mchookem 16,206]

Quote

 

Same as the my body my choice crowd wanting to limit the freedoms of people not wanting to get vaccinated.  Hypocrisy be thy name in the 2020's.

 

honestly doesn't seem the same at all 🤔🤨

'my body my choice' - effects me.

anti-vax - effects me and literally everybody i come in contact with.

not looking for an abortion debate, just think that's a false equivalency on the simplest level. 

[LABEVO 928]

https://newrepublic.com/article/162000/bill-gates-impeded-global-access-covid-vaccines

 

Quote

How Bill Gates Impeded Global Access to Covid Vaccines

Through his hallowed foundation, the world’s de facto public health czar has been a stalwart defender of monopoly medicine.

 

[Cheeseweasel 26,437]

2 minutes ago, mchookem said:

anti-vax - effects me and literally everybody i come in contact with.

Not if you get vaccinated. 

[Dahobbs 17,444]

2 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

Not if you get vaccinated. 

If you get vaccinated you protect yourself AND the other people you come into contact with. If you don't get vaccinated, you put yourself at risk AND the other people you come into contact with, including those that cannot get vaccinated. We aim for high vaccination rates for other diseases to protect those that can't get vaccinated. Everyone that can, should. 

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12,301]

9 minutes ago, Don Johnson said:

I agree.  And have stated many times the best approach is to sell life returning to normal, but that seems so hard for some.

Also - and this is going to really annoy some - but if people really wanted to reach a certain segment of the population, they would hail this vaccine publicly as a huge Trump accomplishment. 

What’s stopping the handful of right wing news sources where these people consume their truth from doing just that? They are responsible for creating the perception of reality these people live in. 

[Don Johnson 4,745]

1 minute ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

What’s stopping the handful of right wing news sources where these people consume their truth from doing just that? They are responsible for creating the perception of reality these people live in. 

Nothing.  I think they should.  But, like everyone these days, they profit from the divide.

[Cheeseweasel 26,437]

5 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

If you get vaccinated you protect yourself AND the other people you come into contact with. If you don't get vaccinated, you put yourself at risk AND the other people you come into contact with, including those that cannot get vaccinated. We aim for high vaccination rates for other diseases to protect those that can't get vaccinated. Everyone that can, should. 

And if you never leave the house, you have nothing to worry about. Everyone that can, should.

I've been vaccinated, I give zero fucks about what everyone else does now. Mask/no mask/vax/no vax. Zero. Fucks. Given.

[The Dog 43,802]

1 minute ago, LABEVO said:

you stupid fucking idiot. just because you are vaccinated, it doesn't mean that you all 100% immune.

that's the case with ALL vaccines. 

what this does is lower the COVID risk for the vaccinated to a point where COVID is too low of a risk to be a personal concern anymore.

Back in April, the CDC reported 5800 infections out of 77 million fully vaccinated people. Now keep in mind that doesn't include asymptomatic or people whose symptoms were not enough to bother to be tested so the number I've seen is to multiply that number by 4 (due to the r number and whatnot and unfortunately I don't have a link). So assume 23,222 infections out of 77,000,000. That's ridiculously low. 

[Don Johnson 4,745]

1 minute ago, The Dog said:

that's the case with ALL vaccines. 

what this does is lower the COVID risk for the vaccinated to a point where COVID is too low of a risk to be a personal concern anymore.

Back in April, the CDC reported 5800 infections out of 77 million fully vaccinated people. Now keep in mind that doesn't include asymptomatic or people whose symptoms were not enough to bother to be tested so the number I've seen is to multiply that number by 4 (due to the r number and whatnot and unfortunately I don't have a link). So assume 23,222 infections out of 77,000,000. That's ridiculously low. 

And of those 5800 out of 77,000,000 only 74 required hospitalization.

 

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12,301]

10 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

OK, Doomer.

i'm out here living my best life, brother. have had less than a handful of convos about covid in the past 7 months.

but, yeah, let's roll with that.

[Cheeseweasel 26,437]

[dcar00 14,035]

5 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

i'm out here living my best life, brother. have had less than a handful of convos about covid in the past 7 months.

but, yeah, let's roll with that.

but are you living your authentic truth? 

[Buzzrock 14,870]

I’ve been having some pretty significant heart palpitations for the last several days, mostly at night. I’ve had them before but it’s been 15 years or so. I’ve got a doc appt Thursday to see what’s up, but there are some associations of myocarditis with the vaccines.

[GopherRock 1,765]

COVID takes out Oktoberfest again.

 

 

[Queen Bitch 1,692]

Jackie Daytona is having a real one on this thread

[Message Board User 12,389]

46 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

And if you never leave the house, you have nothing to worry about. Everyone that can, should.

I've been vaccinated, I give zero fucks about what everyone else does now. Mask/no mask/vax/no vax. Zero. Fucks. Given.

This is my attitude exactly at this point now that I’ve been fully vaxxed.

Wear a mask.  Or don’t.  I don’t give a shit.

Get vaxxed.  Or don’t.  I don’t give a shit.

 

[Cheeseweasel 26,437]

10 minutes ago, Queen Bitch said:

Jackie Daytona is having a real one on this thread

[Dahobbs 17,444]

1 hour ago, Cheeseweasel said:

And if you never leave the house, you have nothing to worry about. Everyone that can, should.

I've been vaccinated, I give zero fucks about what everyone else does now. Mask/no mask/vax/no vax. Zero. Fucks. Given.

Right, other people not getting vaccinated doesn't directly effect you anymore. But not everyone has that option. The question was why should we require people to get vaccinated. The answer is that because it isn't just about personal safety, but also protecting the vulnerable that cannot get vaccinated. We want them to be able to participate in society as well. And the way we do that is by getting everyone else vaccinated. I'm not sure why that is controversial. It is the same way we approach vaccinations for other contagious diseases. 

Edited May 3, 2021 by Dahobbs

[Sawbonz 27,422]

1 hour ago, LABEVO said:

you stupid fucking idiot. just because you are vaccinated, it doesn't mean that you all 100% immune. it is a high % but until we have mass vaccination then infection is still possible.

 

gfy

You know that’s true even if 100% of people get vaccinated right?

[Sawbonz 27,422]

1 hour ago, Don Johnson said:

And of those 5800 out of 77,000,000 only 74 required hospitalization.

 

[Wulaw Horn 18,980]

3 hours ago, BurntOrange&White said:

Why does it matter what someone chooses to do?

 

My favorite part of everything so far has been the white conservatives in Texas a few years ago making fun of California ant-vaxxers to only become anti vaxxers themselves now. 

I haven't run into any of those.  The anit vax nuts then were still anti vax nuts now- and those who kept to all the shots for them and their kids are getting this one.  Are you talking to lots of people that have changed their mind?  

[Neonmoon 38,127]

There will always be a small percent of people in society that are too crazy to reach with logic. The goal is to limit the spread of their craziness to alligator rodeos and meth jamborees 

[BabaYaga 15,210]

1 hour ago, Dahobbs said:

The question was why should we require people to get vaccinated.

So you are going on record of requiring, via the threat of punishment, mandatory vaccination for everyone?

[Dahobbs 17,444]

Just now, BabaYaga said:

So you are going on record of requiring, via the threat of punishment, mandatory vaccination for everyone?

I don't think any regulation can be a blanket requirement. As I said, there has to at least be an exception for those that cannot get the vaccine for medical reasons. And I wouldn't be in favor of a fine or jail time or anything like that. But, I think it would be reasonable to make it a prerequisite for participating in certain aspects of public life (e.g., air travel). We do the same thing for public schools and vaccinations for common childhood ailments. It is a carrot and stick approach. I think you need both to some extent. 

[Queen Bitch 1,692]

14 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

I haven't run into any of those.  The anit vax nuts then were still anti vax nuts now- and those who kept to all the shots for them and their kids are getting this one.  Are you talking to lots of people that have changed their mind?  

https://texags.com/forums/38/topics/3019034

https://texags.com/forums/12/topics/3018443

https://texags.com/forums/12/topics/2599864

Might I suggest Texags' pre-COVID reaction to anti-vaxxers?

[BabaYaga 15,210]

2 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

I don't think any regulation can be a blanket requirement. As I said, there has to at least be an exception for those that cannot get the vaccine for medical reasons. And I wouldn't be in favor of a fine or jail time or anything like that. But, I think it would be reasonable to make it a prerequisite for participating in certain aspects of public life (e.g., air travel). We do the same thing for public schools and vaccinations for common childhood ailments. It is a carrot and stick approach. I think you need both to some extent. 

So here we circle back to the vaccine passport.  So we don't allow people with updated immunization records that are up to date fly now?

[Cheeseweasel 26,437]

5 minutes ago, Queen Bitch said:

Might I suggest Texags'

[DDD Dad 14,251]

5 hours ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

Oh look, @Cheeseweasel is unable to defend his position.

it was a simple question...do you have an answer?

Did you really expect one?

[BabaYaga 15,210]

6 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

I'm sure they are also laughing their asses off of they regrettably stumble into the Austin Chapter of the Democratic Undegrou.....er, I mean CR.  

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12,301]

31 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

I haven't run into any of those.  The anit vax nuts then were still anti vax nuts now- and those who kept to all the shots for them and their kids are getting this one.  Are you talking to lots of people that have changed their mind?  

yeah half of my family went down the rush limbaugh/fox news rabbithole...they've spent years bashing anti-vaxxers and now all of the sudden have done their own independent research and decided against a covid vax. their brains have turned to mush, and there would be zero point in even attempting to convince them they're wrong.

[Dahobbs 17,444]

9 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

So here we circle back to the vaccine passport.  So we don't allow people with updated immunization records that are up to date fly now?

I assume you meant without. That isnt currently a requirement for other illnesses. As I said, the context you see it right now is public schooling. There may be other examples, I haven't researched the full panoply of health regulations across the country. My only suggestion here is that should require covid vaccinations for some aspects of public life and I provided flying as a possible example. Ideally, any such regulation would be targeted to things that are more likely to result in spread AND that requiring vaccination would likely increase our vaccination rates. 

[Captainant 27,447]

21 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

So here we circle back to the vaccine passport.  So we don't allow people with updated immunization records that are up to date fly now?

We have restricted travel for non-vaccinated people before, and it was pretty key to the containment and eventual neutralization of smallpox. Today's anti-vax arguments and rhetoric  are even echos from the past: “A scar from forced vaccination is a brand, a mark of medical tyranny and despotism.” (in relation to a smallpox vaccine)

[BabaYaga 15,210]

4 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

I assume you meant without. That isnt currently a requirement for other illnesses. As I said, the context you see it right now is public schooling. There may be other examples, I haven't researched the full panoply of health regulations across the country. My only suggestion here is that should require covid vaccinations for some aspects of public life and I provided flying as a possible example. Ideally, any such regulation would be targeted to things that are more likely to result in spread AND that requiring vaccination would likely increase our vaccination rates. 

Public schooling is required because those viruses are especially deadly to children.  This one is not.  Statistically it has a mortality rate of zero.  A hospitalization rate not much higher.  We also now know children are not significant transmission vectors.  So tell me again the point?  The flu kills kids.  It wrecks them.   We don't do anything even remotely close to these steps to protect them.  So what exactly is the rationale here?  

[Dahobbs 17,444]

1 minute ago, BabaYaga said:

Public schooling is required because those viruses are especially deadly to children.  This one is not.  Statistically it has a mortality rate of zero.  A hospitalization rate not much higher.  We also now know children are not significant transmission vectors.  So tell me again the point?  The flu kills kids.  It wrecks them.   We don't do anything even remotely close to these steps to protect them.  So what exactly is the rationale here?  

I didn't say to require it for public schooling as to covid. That would make no sense as it would be pointless and impossible right now. I was giving an example of a similar restriction. 

[BabaYaga 15,210]

1 minute ago, Captainant said:

We have restricted travel for non-vaccinated people before, and it was pretty key to the containment and eventual neutralization of smallpox. Today's anti-vax arguments and rhetoric  are even echos from the past: “A scar from forced vaccination is a brand, a mark of medical tyranny and despotism.” (in relation to a smallpox vaccine)

Great example

Quote

The year was 1885. U.S. border officials in the late 19th century did not expect travelers to carry the identification documents that international transit requires today—but they did often require passengers to provide evidence that they had been vaccinated from smallpox.

Smallpox?  A disease that historians debate has killed between 300-500 millions people over the years?  

[BabaYaga 15,210]

1 minute ago, Dahobbs said:

I didn't say to require it for public schooling as to covid. That would make no sense as it would be pointless and impossible right now. I was giving an example of a similar restriction. 

I was always told having to carry a document to verify your status was racist.  Who knew....

[DDD Dad 14,251]

21 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Great example

Smallpox?  A disease that historians debate has killed between 300-500 millions people over the years?  

Well let's see here.  It took generations for a smallpox vaccine to be developed.  The deaths occurred over hundreds of years.  COVID-19 has killed over 3 million in just about a year, half a million in the US alone.  I'm thinking a vaccine passport isn't such a bad idea.

Edited May 3, 2021 by DDD Dad

[Captainant 27,447]

Just now, BabaYaga said:

Great example

Smallpox?  A disease that historians debate has killed between 300-500 millions people over the years?  

The quote I shared was from a 1923 publication and about halfway down the article - but points to you for at least opening the link to find something in the second paragraph to ignore my point. But is there another more recent global epidemic that you'd like me to compare this against? 

[The Dog 43,802]

Requiring a vaccine shot for international travel is common and accepted. 

Requiring proof of vaccination for DOMESTIC travel is another thing entirely. 

 

[Sawbonz 27,422]

27 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Public schooling is required because those viruses are especially deadly to children. 

Chickenpox is deadly to children? German measles and mumps are deadly to children? 
 

eta smallpox may not have killed you but you might end up looking all fucked up. Do a google image search for smallpox scars

Edited May 3, 2021 by Sawbonz

[Cheeseweasel 26,437]

The one trick to improve your Surly enjoyment:

[Dahobbs 17,444]

51 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

I was always told having to carry a document to verify your status was racist.  Who knew....

Your analogy is as simplistic as it is irrelevant. We've already heard about abortion. By all means, see if you can shoehorn in unions. May as well get all your talking points out in one place. 

[Anastasis 23,394]

 

[Anastasis 23,394]

1 hour ago, Captainant said:

But is there another more recent global epidemic that you'd like me to compare this against? 

Would be fun to do HIV/AIDS. 

[Hate 20,103]

1 minute ago, Anastasis said:

Would be fun to do HIV/AIDS. 

[BabaYaga 15,210]

5 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Would be fun to do HIV/AIDS. 

Because we all know these "passports" will ONLY be utilized for this single incident and NEVER see any type of mission creep whatsoever.

They are critical as you could catch, be just fine, and pass it someone that is not safe.  It's a much, much, much better response than just targeting with vaccinations those that are are not safe in the first place.....