Formerly DT: COVID-19 - Featuring Lots of Politics, now CR because political talk not going away

[DigglerontheHoof 21,186]

8 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Like this guy here. If I met him in public and broke his jaw, should that be ok? It's not like he'd be likely to die. And if he did, well, survival of the fittest, right?

We think alike, in this case.  Breaking this asshole's jaw would be cathartic. 

[wildcat09 29,349]

1 minute ago, Cheeseweasel said:

So we all agree that air pollution is bad and I assume you will be the first one giving up your car, right? 

If alternative public transportation is made available? Sure. I lived in Europe without a car for a little while and it was really cool, actually.

[Anastasis 23,469]

 

 

Now consider your community as if it was just a large household. 

[Trey3216 15,346]

41 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Guys we can compromise. If you want to assume the risk, fine. But if you do, and you end up getting someone else sick and they're hospitalized, you're on the hook for their medical costs. And if you can't afford them we garnish your paycheck until they're paid. And if they die, you'll be executed.

I think that sounds fair. Don't y'all agree?

You gonna do that when your kid gets norovirus at daycare?  You get flu from being on an elevator with someone who is just trying to keep their job??  How far does it go?  I guess we could employ an extra million people to join the Communicable Disease Gestappo.  

[MoJames 8,244]

Honestly I agree it is time to move forward. The chance of a variant is there, specifically in places like India. I do not see the possibility of a variant in the US that would change the course of this. The reason Influenza has the ability to produce so many variants is due to the reservoir. It is passed between Chickens, Pigs and Humans every year in China with 100% mortality of the pigs. Every year, there is a new batch of pigs without any natural immunity to stir the pot once again on a variant. Coronavirus has been shown to be passed between humans and potentially bats and pangolins. None of these species live in close contact with each other.  The ability of Coronavirus to mutate is much much less because of this. As well, the idea that there is a unique long term issue with Coronavirus has no scientific bearing as of yet. And Coronavirus in many other forms has been present for years. ARDS has been present for years as well and it's long term complications are well documented and not unique to Coronavirus. There was a recent study done on those who died from Covid and there was no significant changes in their brain tissue on autopsy.

Nothing we due in regards to mask wearing or getting more people vaccinated will change what is happening in India. We have moved the needle substantially in the majority of our communities (some more so than others) with vaccinations as well as infections. We are seeing that change in the numbers. I continue to have daily discussions with my patient's about this as well as recommend anyone that is eligible should strongly consider getting vaccinated. Most have. Those that haven't I don't feel they will.

Unless there is a huge community that is still having a hard time providing vaccinations to all that wish to get it, I feel it is time to move forward.

[Brisketexan 105,095]

1 minute ago, Trey3216 said:

You gonna do that when your kid gets norovirus at daycare?  You get flu from being on an elevator with someone who is just trying to keep their job??  How far does it go?  I guess we could employ an extra million people to join the Communicable Disease Gestappo.  

We long ago decided on the acceptable levels of risk for the common cold, norovirus, the flu, etc.  So, we don't need to alter those levels of risk.  

COVID is different.  It has a much higher rate of death/serious bodily injury than those other illnesses.  AND....it is almost entirely preventable with a vaccine (which is not the case with noro, colds, or flu).  Put those two together, and it's fucking nuts that we as a society can't take the simple measure to knock the risk down to what we already determined is acceptable -- get the fucking shot.

[Trey3216 15,346]

2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

We long ago decided on the acceptable levels of risk for the common cold, norovirus, the flu, etc.  So, we don't need to alter those levels of risk.  

COVID is different.  It has a much higher rate of death/serious bodily injury than those other illnesses.  AND....it is almost entirely preventable with a vaccine (which is not the case with noro, colds, or flu).  Put those two together, and it's fucking nuts that we as a society can't take the simple measure to knock the risk down to what we already determined is acceptable -- get the fucking shot.

I have gotten the fucking shot.  My point was hyperbole, and how far some are willing to take it.  Because if you allow an inch, a mile will be taken.  

[Cheeseweasel 26,438]

1 minute ago, Trey3216 said:

I have gotten the fucking shot.  My point was hyperbole, and how far some are willing to take it.  Because if you allow an inch, a mile will be taken.  

[wildcat09 29,349]

I personally wouldn't really mind if we decided to require some different behaviors or policies to help prevent transmission of the flu. I frankly didn't think of it much before covid because I've never had the flu, but something that can kill 60,000 per year is still pretty bad. That's nearly twice as many people as die in car accidents each year, and we regulate the shit out of cars and driver behavior to try to mitigate car accident deaths and injuries. 

We all owe a duty of reasonable care to everyone else because we live in a society. When it comes to communicable diseases it gets pretty hard to figure out where the line of reasonableness is, and it varies from disease to disease. But the duty exists. If people want to flagrantly ignore it, we should treat that as a waiver of their own right not to be harmed by others. 

Edited May 5, 2021 by wildcat09

[gyroprotagonist 2,592]

13 minutes ago, GRHorn said:

Is it both sides? Yes. 

Unelected bureaucrats with an inflated sense of self worth want to keep having a say in how millions of people go about their everyday lives? I guess that’s what it is?
 

I’m looking for reasons why they release guidance that has no scientific basis like the kids masking stuff. 

OK, thanks for your take.  I don't see it that way.  Maybe they are being too cautious, but doing it just to feel like big men/women and lusting after their newfound power?  not buying that.  

The kids and masking guidance.  I agree they are too cautious.  The data is there that say kids are not going to suffer serious hospitalization/death; no guessing here.  I am guessing that kid to kid transmission is at a lower rate vs adults due to kids having a higher asymptomatic rate (when they are infected) and thus lower transmission rate?   Is there a large school district that did not do any masking or SD that would show this as fact?  or did those that did in person schooling have lower transmission and case rate because they wore masks and the school did all they could to SD?  That, in my opinion is where the CDC is coming from right or wrong. 

I am biased.  My kids have been in school all year and had to wear a mask.  Honest to God, they have not complained once about it and loved being able just to go to school.  Would i prefer they could go w/o mask?  Sure there is a lot lost from facial expressions and the youngest does some speech therapy at school.   I don't see it as cruel or child abuse though for them to wear a mask, but again, I am using a sample size of 2.

 

[Guest Lobo]

16 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

So we all agree that air pollution is bad and I assume you will be the first one giving up your car, right? 

But there is also a greater good in having affordable, reliable transportation.  It serves a high function for society.   My car carries me to/from work, my kids to/from school, groceries from the store, and my mom to doctor's appointments.  If we all gave up our cars, the air would be cleaner but our society would crumble. 

There is no greater good in extra people just walking around sans vaccine, transmitting the Covid-19.  There is no societal benefit to people being selfish when it comes to a disease that's extremely communicable with a far higher fatality rate than the flu.  If there was a greater good to everybody being a complete asshole, then Surlyhorns would be fucking Shangri-La.  And we're the High Lama and Conway.

Edited May 5, 2021 by Lobo

[washparkhorn 9,939]

36 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

Replace YOLO with "social contract"

 

 

[Brisketexan 105,095]

 
 

The social contract is socialism communism and means you hate America, commie!

The thinking really is that simple. The American ethos is 100% freedom, 0% responsibility.

And that’s going about as you’d expect.

[Message Board User 12,395]

17 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

If people want to flagrantly ignore it, we should treat that as a waiver of their own right not to be harmed by others. 

“Oh you’re not wearing a mask?  You’re within 6 feet of me?  You’re not making your 5 year old wear a mask?

How about I punch you in the face?”

I sometimes wonder if some posters on here actually live life and talk to real people outside of their online bubble.

[Incredulity 11,665]

2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

The social contract is socialism communism and means you hate America, commie!

The thinking really is that simple. The American ethos is 100% freedom, 0% responsibility.

And that’s going about as you’d expect.

Bull fucking shit.

The American ethos is freedom, opportunity and self reliance.

 

[wildcat09 29,349]

2 minutes ago, Message Board User said:

“Oh you’re not wearing a mask?  You’re within 6 feet of me?  You’re not making your 5 year old wear a mask?

How about I punch you in the face?”

I sometimes wonder if some posters on here actually live life and talk to real people outside of their online bubble.

I said "flagrantly ignore" it. If someone without a mask decided to stand 4 feet from me I'd first ask them to back up a bit, but if they were an asshole and moved closer instead? Why shouldn't they get punched in the face then?

Edited May 5, 2021 by wildcat09

[Wulaw Horn 19,069]

On 5/3/2021 at 4:16 PM, blacklab said:

So you're opposed to private companies doing what's best for their bottom line?

I'm not talking about regulation, I'm talking about insurance companies changing their policies.

Yeah- this is a good example of a market based approach that would definitely help get more people vaxed, has nothing to do with the government, and would be super easy to implement (and might even be a sop to big business). If we could just find some way to fuck over the mainstream media it should touch every conservative hot button out there. I honestly have no idea how you’d get any pushback at all on this. 

[Cheeseweasel 26,438]

3 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

I said "flagrantly ignore" it. If someone without a mask decided to stand 4 feet from me I'd first ask them to back up a bit, but if they were an asshole and moved closer instead? Why shouldn't they get punched in the face then?

Because you could splatter their Covid germs to people nearby, thus infecting them and killing us all.

[Guest Lobo]

3 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

Bull fucking shit.

The American ethos is freedom, opportunity and self reliance.

 

I agree with freedom and opportunity.  Most of the "self-reliant" people I meet have no idea what a drain on society they are, which is getting more and more pervasive.  

[washparkhorn 9,939]

2 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

The American ethos is freedom, opportunity and self reliance.

The Constitution is based on Social Contract theory.

You are describing anarchy and rejection of the Constitution. 

[wildcat09 29,349]

Just now, Cheeseweasel said:

Because you could splatter their Covid germs to people nearby, thus infecting them and killing us all.

Do you have a serious answer to the question? I'm honestly interested. If a guy decides to stand close to me, I ask him to move, and he moves even closer to me in response, should I still owe him a legal duty to not harm him? 

[Incredulity 11,665]

1 minute ago, washparkhorn said:

The Constitution is based on Social Contract theory.

You are describing anarchy and rejection of the Constitution. 

nope, representative government and the rule of law.

[Dahobbs 17,534]

2 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

Bull fucking shit.

The American ethos is freedom, opportunity and self reliance.

What does freedom mean? What does self reliance mean? 

Freedom to do whatever you want without restriction?

Self reliance except for all the public infrastructure and societal benefits that are necessary to support modern life? 

You're just parroting buzzwords without any understanding of nuance or what they actually mean. 

[Incredulity 11,665]

Just now, Dahobbs said:

What does freedom mean? What does self reliance mean? 

Freedom to do whatever you want without restriction?

Self reliance except for all the public infrastructure and societal benefits that are necessary to support modern life? 

You're just parroting buzzwords without any understanding of nuance or what they actually mean. 

see above.

[wildcat09 29,349]

Just now, Incredulity said:

nope, representative government and the rule of law.

So a majority of Americans should be able to vote to have the government impose mask requirements?

[Dahobbs 17,534]

Just now, Incredulity said:

nope, representative government and the rule of law.

Representative government. The majority wants everyone to get vaccinated. Rule of law. Failure to get vaccinated will result in fines/penalties.  

Sounds American to me. 

[Incredulity 11,665]

Just now, wildcat09 said:

So a majority of Americans should be able to vote to have the government impose mask requirements?

 

It's the representative governments responsibility to make that call and be held accountable by elections.

[washparkhorn 9,939]

4 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

nope, representative government and the rule of law.

You can't be that dense, so I assume you are trolling. 

Social Contract Theory includes our representative form of democracy and the rule of law.  You are advocating for Social Contract theory in your post. 

edit: do yourself a favor and watch the less than 2 minute video from McCombs (UT's business school in case you didn't know what McCombs is). It is short and simple.  Good luck.

Edited May 5, 2021 by washparkhorn

[Wulaw Horn 19,069]

13 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

I said "flagrantly ignore" it. If someone without a mask decided to stand 4 feet from me I'd first ask them to back up a bit, but if they were an asshole and moved closer instead? Why shouldn't they get punched in the face then?

Is that true?  Do you actually ask every maskless person within 5 feet of you to get away from you?  Like at all times?  Where do you live?  How often do you have that conversation?  I’m completely fascinated. Will you continue to do this as fully vaccinated people creep over 50% and it becomes statistically more likely than not that they are fully vaxed?  Are you fully vaxed and has that changed this action on your part?    
BTW- is fully support you punching the guy under most circumstances. He’s the asshole in that instance. He can get punched for acting like a 5 year old. 

Edited May 5, 2021 by Wulaw Horn

[Incredulity 11,665]

Just now, Dahobbs said:

Representative government. The majority wants everyone to get vaccinated. Rule of law. Failure to get vaccinated will result in fines/penalties.  

Sounds American to me. 

I haven't argued against vaccinations or requirements to be vaccinated.

I think the current state of mask mandates/vaccine uptake is fucking clownshow of the first order.

[hayden_horn 11,362]

on the mask guidance, i think this thread is a perfect microcosm of why the cdc has been cautious on that front. once you relax too much, then you'll have tons more unvaxxed selfish assholes not wearing masks because they are selfish assholes.

if yall would just own that people who refuse to vax or mask up are selfish assholes, i think this conversation would be more straightforward. it is not about you.

yes, the vaccine has a personal benefit to you in that you are now nominally safe from covid-19. it also has a massive societal benefit because even if you catch covid and are largely asymptomatic, you can still spread it to tons of people you yourself have now told masks are not necessary. so they are at risk, you are a risk, because you are selfish.

get the fucking shot so we can go on about with our lives. your continued intransigence is dragging this shit on longer than it needs to be.

[Cheeseweasel 26,438]

5 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Do you have a serious answer

Have you met me or read anything I've posted on Shaggy/Surly? 

[Incredulity 11,665]

1 minute ago, washparkhorn said:

You can't be that dense, so I assume you are trolling. 

Social Contract Theory includes our representative form of democracy and the rule of law.  You are advocating for Social Contract theory in your post. 

Jesus fucking christ, I never argued against "Social Contract Theory".

 

I shit posted about Brisket bloviating about "social contract" ad-nauseum.

[Cheeseweasel 26,438]

6 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Do you have a serious answer to the question? I'm honestly interested. If a guy decides to stand close to me, I ask him to move, and he moves even closer to me in response, should I still owe him a legal duty to not harm him? 

[Cheeseweasel 26,438]

7 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

What does freedom mean?

Just another word for nuthin left to lose

[wildcat09 29,349]

1 minute ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Is that true?  Do you actually ask every maskless person within 5 feet of you to get away from you?  Like at all times?  Where do you live?  How often do you have that conversation?  I’m completely fascinated. Will you continue to do this as fully vaccinated people creep over 50% and it becomes statistically more likely than not that they are fully vaxed?  Are you fully vaxed and has that changed this action on your part?    

I don't anymore because I'm vaxxed. Before I was vaxxed I'd first move myself if I thought someone was too close, unless I was in line for something and someone lined up too close behind me, in which case I did ask a few people to back up a bit. Nobody was ever an ass about it.

But I think it's a fair question to put to the people who don't think covid has warranted changes in behavior. If I had asked a guy to back up a bit and instead he moved closer, should he still be legally protected from physical retaliation? What if he hadn't just moved closer, but had intentionally exhaled right in my face? Where's the line where those who disregard their own legal duty forfeit legal protection? Or are certain people always protected and others only sometimes protected?

 

[MoJames 8,244]

3 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

i think this thread is a perfect microcosm of why the cdc has been cautious on that front. once you relax too much, then you'll have tons more unvaxxed selfish assholes not wearing masks because they are selfish assholes.

I'd argue that the vast majority of those people have never worn a mask throughout this, specifically after dotard made it political and joe rogan decided to make it about masculinity.

Fell more in love with Burr after this interaction.

 

[workswithseed 2,101]

2 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

 

1 minute ago, wildcat09 said:

I don't anymore because I'm vaxxed. Before I was vaxxed I'd first move myself if I thought someone was too close, unless I was in line for something and someone lined up too close behind me, in which case I did ask a few people to back up a bit. Nobody was ever an ass about it.

But I think it's a fair question to put to the people who don't think covid has warranted changes in behavior. If I had asked a guy to back up a bit and instead he moved closer, should he still be legally protected from physical retaliation? What if he hadn't just moved closer, but had intentionally exhaled right in my face? Where's the line where those who disregard their own legal duty forfeit legal protection? Or are certain people always protected and others only sometimes protected?

 

Are you legally able to kill him? Are you afraid for your life?

[DigglerontheHoof 21,186]

8 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

see above.

Okay, Ethan Allen.

[wildcat09 29,349]

1 minute ago, workswithseed said:

 

Are you legally able to kill him? Are you afraid for your life?

Before I was vaxxed, I'd say it would've been reasonable for me to treat someone who wasn't wearing a mask, who intentionally moved closer to me when asked to back up, and who intentionally breathed in my face, as a threat to my life. I bet there are many here who would disagree, though.

[Hefeweizen 5,311]

18 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

Bull fucking shit.

The American ethos is freedom, opportunity and self reliance.

 

Self reliance is a good one .  How did that go in the winter storm this year minus water and power supplied by “public” utilities?  The people who like self reliance probably really like Medicaid and social security too, right?  
 

Look the US is to me the best country in the world but the myth of self reliance is just that.  Unless you live off the grid and grow your own food you rely on the system. 

[Wulaw Horn 19,069]

10 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

I don't anymore because I'm vaxxed. Before I was vaxxed I'd first move myself if I thought someone was too close, unless I was in line for something and someone lined up too close behind me, in which case I did ask a few people to back up a bit. Nobody was ever an ass about it.

But I think it's a fair question to put to the people who don't think covid has warranted changes in behavior. If I had asked a guy to back up a bit and instead he moved closer, should he still be legally protected from physical retaliation? What if he hadn't just moved closer, but had intentionally exhaled right in my face? Where's the line where those who disregard their own legal duty forfeit legal protection? Or are certain people always protected and others only sometimes protected?

 

I edited to say that the dude deserved to be punched. 
as to your question I’m pretty sure the behavior you described could be prosecuted as battery. Typically it never is bc even if you won what would your damages be?  But in the time of Covid I could see that being a cause of action or brought up as a defense for after you hit the guy (IE I was just protecting myself- this response was proportionally appropriate as this dude committed a battery). 

Edited May 5, 2021 by Wulaw Horn

[Incredulity 11,665]

1 minute ago, DigglerontheHoof said:

Okay, Ethan Allen.

Better than Ilya Ehrenburg

[Wulaw Horn 19,069]

3 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Before I was vaxxed, I'd say it would've been reasonable for me to treat someone who wasn't wearing a mask, who intentionally moved closer to me when asked to back up, and who intentionally breathed in my face, as a threat to my life. I bet there are many here who would disagree, though.

Yeah man if you did that, and I was on your jury my guess is I’d vote for manslaughter. You had a view that this guy was threatening your life but it wasn’t objectively reasonable. I think that’s the differentiation between murder an manslaughter when raising the affirmative defense of self defense. 

[Incredulity 11,665]

4 minutes ago, Hefeweizen said:

Self reliance is a good one .  How did that go in the winter storm this year minus water and power supplied by “public” utilities?  The people who like self reliance probably really like Medicaid and social security too, right?  
 

Look the US is to me the best country in the world but the myth of self reliance is just that.  Unless you live off the grid and grow your own food you rely on the system. 

What pays for the system? 

[bernorange 8,359]

1 hour ago, bernorange said:

I started a thread on this topic way back when (March 2020):

Sorry... I linked the wrong thread..

 

[MNLonghornFUKM 8,817]

Never trust someone with those set of eyebrows

[Hefeweizen 5,311]

Just now, Incredulity said:

What pays for the system? 

Self reliant fuckos in coonskin caps like yourself.  Because us smart ones evade taxes using our self reliance.

[Incredulity 11,665]

Just now, Hefeweizen said:

Self reliant fuckos in coonskin caps like yourself.  Because us smart ones evade taxes using our self reliance.

name calling, the calling card of a genius.

 

[Don Johnson 4,753]

1 hour ago, wildcat09 said:

I'm actually kind of intrigued by this idea that people shouldn't be held responsible for harming others, though I'm not sure the people espousing it will actually continue to do so if we start taking it seriously.

We are getting close to the point where if you get harmed by Covid, its nobody's fault but your own.