Formerly DT: COVID-19 - Featuring Lots of Politics, now CR because political talk not going away

[Bruno Sardine 147]

58 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

So we should have done what all the other nations weren't doing ? ?  It's not wailing, it's asking why other nations didn't close down. Why are people just selectively bashing our country ?  The western world has acted about the same in many cases.

It does seem odd. I know the numbers aren't perfect, but here are some numbers showing actual deaths per million people:

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/?utm_campaign=homeAdUOA?Si

USA - 107 deaths/million population

Netherlands 202

Switzerland 153

Sweden 139

Belgium 445

Spain - 417

Italy - 367

France - 276

UK - 215

Anybody can play the "look at this country, they did things so much better than we did" game. Heck, I'm playing that game right now. Only in reverse. Bottom line is all the western intelligence agencies, all the western countries had access to more or less the same data at more or less the same time. Is the Netherlands a backwards country run by buffoons? Switzerland? Sweden? I don't think I'm guilty of a straw man argument here. There really does seem to be a sentiment afoot that there was something atypical about the way we responded to this crisis compared to other western countries - something negligent which resulted in an unusually large number of deaths as a percentage of our population. This is not true. 

[atomheartbevo 89416]

12 hours ago, gmr548 said:

I have seen it reported that local officials tried to keep information from Beijing out of fear of reprisal/demotion/whatever. Doesn't that thought kind of go against the idea it came out of a lab though? It's not like the lab was run by the local government. I imagine a newly minted BSL 4 in China of all places has monitoring directly from Beijing. Any breach or what have you at that facility would have sounded alarm bells far beyond the mayor of Wuhan, no?

Once you get a cover up going, and other people’s jobs/lives are at stake, it gets easy to involve them, even if it wasn’t their fault or bailiwick.

It’s possible the coverup started at the national level from the get-go, but it’s also believable that lab and local officials (and later regional) tried to keep things quiet in the hopes they could shut it down, and once shit really hit the fan, they were fired/scrubbed from history while the national government tried their hand at covering it up.  

Denial is also a helluva drug.  Look at Chernobyl.  

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

7 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

Well, except, at least for the folks on this thread, China. 

Anyway, I don't think we needed to stop all travel or do a shutdown in January or February. We just needed to be gearing up so that we could do the things South Korea, Norway, and now Germany are doing: rapid identification, testing, and isolation of infected individuals. You do that, and the disease doesn't get crazy out of control, individual and societal risk stays low, and no shut down is necessary. We had more warning than most, that should have been doable. Regardless, it is still the only real path forward to allow us to reopen and keep our healthcare system from being overwhelmed. 

China gets little quarter. It originated there. Either in their wet markets, which are horrendously inhumane, and dangerously unhygienic, or it slipped out of a lab. They lied about it, and then covered it up. They continue to lie about it to this day. 

Much of the world is pissed at their gov't for the pandemic, and with good reason.  It's not just the people on this site.

[Longhorn94 2427]

1 minute ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Not at all trying to be a dick here, but do y’all have some special health problems or comorbidities that make you susceptible to serious harm from this thing? Because 2 alone might not ever happen/might be years away (viruses are hard to treat or cure). 

Are you prepared to keep your family completely locked down for 12-18 months? 

No, we dont have any health problems at all. We are all fit and healthy. But as the person who is responsible for keeping my family safe, I am not going to send them out to get sick before there are therapies in place to address. I don't think therapies are that far off. Vaccines are another story. 

I am prepared to do whatever it takes to keep my family happy and healthy. But I don't believe it will be 12-18 months. I believe we can get mass testing in place over the next 60-90 days, if we start now. I believe we will have effective therapies over the same period of time. We have masks so we are good on that one.

[atomheartbevo 89416]

5 hours ago, Loco said:

Ah some good news.

  Reveal hidden contents

In before someone just says they'll get dumped on the other side of this

 

Let’s just hope there wasn’t a tiger sanctuary in the area.  

[GringoSalado 1651]

1 hour ago, stork642 said:

I’m thinking his choice of music is the Smiths.  Girlfriends got Corona I know I know it’s serious.  

Jesus now I can't unhear this in my head.

 

 

[atomheartbevo 89416]

4 hours ago, VABuckeye said:

China has reported 1290 new deaths for today.  This after a month of 0,1,2,3 deaths a day reports.  Lying sacks of shit they are.

I bet we are going to get “updated” numbers from China every week or two.  Drip, drip, drip.  

[Loco 3752]

Just now, gmr548 said:

DRs have estimated there's a pretty significant false negative rate, I've seen between 20-40 percent quoted. Between that and not really knowing how long it takes to completely leave the system, it's very possible that these are the original nfections just hanging on longer than realized. Absolutely something that should be looked into though. A change to our assumptions surrounding immunity would have huge implications.

If you read the article, they are looking at the test, however some of the recovered patients are showing symptoms again (albeit mild symptoms).  No signs of tansmission from a "recovered" patient.   Fingers crossed on that one

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

4 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I believe in our smart guys.

But I believe they can absolutely be hamstrung by who is in charge and what they do.  I won't go CR.  But leadership matters.  Someone has to listen to the smart guys, and someone has to use the force of law and the power of the governmental apparatus to make the smart guys' ideas happen on a broad scale.

Again what would you have had them do  ?  The bug was in NYC in late November, December or very early January at the latest.  What if Cuomo had been told he had to shut down subways and self quarantine in December ?  That's the only way this thing would have been made much less worse.

[Pig Bellmont 8691]

It is impossible to discuss our federal response to the coronavirus without discussing politics. But cool thread guys

[dcar00 14035]

19 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

Well, except, at least for the folks on this thread, China. 

Anyway, I don't think we needed to stop all travel or do a shutdown in January or February. We just needed to be gearing up so that we could do the things South Korea, Norway, and now Germany are doing: rapid identification, testing, and isolation of infected individuals. You do that, and the disease doesn't get crazy out of control, individual and societal risk stays low, and no shut down is necessary. We had more warning than most, that should have been doable. Regardless, it is still the only real path forward to allow us to reopen and keep our healthcare system from being overwhelmed. 

we absolutely should have shut down all foreign incoming travel(except US citzens) at the same time we did China.

[utee94 15745]

1 minute ago, Pig Bellmont said:

It is impossible to discuss our federal response to the coronavirus without discussing politics. But cool thread guys

That isn't true at all.  I see discussion just above your comment that is doing just that.

Talking about actions, and questioning actions, is appropriate.

Talking about your suspected political motivations behind those actions, is not appropriate.  If that's what you want to do then there's another thread on another forum that is dedicated to that.  It's really quite simple.

 

[dcar00 14035]

2 minutes ago, Captainant said:

Just circling back around to this horseshit - I'm not defending china or their denial of information to the global community on COVID-19. I AM advocating for keeping the discussion focused on what actually fucking matters and what we as a country can expect to have some modicum of control over. 

You're over here posting pumping up a conspiracy theory that originated from a fox fucking news interview, and posting a single video from the epoch times who's been outed for hiding their trump campaign ties before - all to downplay the maladministration of the federal response at large. Sure, you may post a sentence here or there on how "we could have done $THING better", but your pages and pages of posts in this thread are predominantly jumping down people's throats for imagined CR arguments, while at the same time posting political talking points that totally aren't political because you didn't say politics.

But back to the point - I agree that China isn't to be trusted and we can't expect them to be helpful in a crisis. So why then are we letting our goddamn government off the hook for taking away what little visibility we had into their country, ignoring intel reports from January and February that there was a pandemic ramping up, and failing to do fucking ANYTHING until their hand was forced? I get that it's not constructive in the middle of a crisis to monday morning QB a response, but when we have a moment of calm we should be talking about what we actually can hope to make a fucking difference with if/when there's another wave of infections. I don't know about you, but I don't really think much will be accomplished or learned by saying "CHINA BAD!" when we've been failing our own benchmarks on testing, PPE, and governors are re-opening beaches and states because economy.

You've done a great job building your safe space over here, and demonizing anyone who dares disagree with your mob. Have fun attacking an enemy nation-state for acting like an enemy nation-state, while ignoring our own nation's absolute failure and abdication of responsibility for anything negative. 

exactly.  Why the fuck was Fauci saying go on about your business on March 1st?

[Brisketexan 104590]

Just now, Onboard 2.0 said:

Again what would you have had them do  ?  The bug was in NYC in late November, December or very early January at the latest.  What if Cuomo had been told he had to shut down subways and self quarantine in December ?  That's the only way this thing would have been made much less worse.

Well, I'll do my level best to not going CR.  Cuomo should have been told just that.  But there's a WAY that he should be told - in private, not by news conferences, not by tweets.  Lay out the data, tell him that you'd much prefer that he take these measures - and you can either take the credit, or if you want to point a finger at the Feds, we'll let you do that -- than make you force him to do so.  And it's not just Cuomo -- it's DeSantis, it's even Abbott, it's others.  Have some standards that are based on local metrics, all of which would have been triggered earlier.

It's not just leading.  It's HOW you lead.  

As a "fighting lawyer," I tell people all the time that I just have one job: convincing someone else to do what I want them to do.  Sometimes, I have to convince a judge.  Other times, I have to convince the other side, sometimes I have to convince my client.  And I use different techniques for all.  Sledgehammer sometimes, sweet talk others.  I don't give a shit which - I pick the tool that gets the job done.  Read up on effective leaders -- that's what almost all of them do.  Decide what goal you want to accomplish, then use the right tools to do it.

[DDD Dad 14251]

Could someone remind me again why it matters whether the virus outbreak originated in a lab or a wet market (or somewhere else)?  Also, how does that affect how we are addressing it here?

(hint:  it doesn't)

Edited April 17, 2020 by DDD Dad

[dcar00 14035]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

Well, I'll do my level best to not going CR.  Cuomo should have been told just that.  But there's a WAY that he should be told - in private, not by news conferences, not by tweets.  Lay out the data, tell him that you'd much prefer that he take these measures - and you can either take the credit, or if you want to point a finger at the Feds, we'll let you do that -- than make you force him to do so.  And it's not just Cuomo -- it's DeSantis, it's even Abbott, it's others.  Have some standards that are based on local metrics, all of which would have been triggered earlier.

It's not just leading.  It's HOW you lead.  

As a "fighting lawyer," I tell people all the time that I just have one job: convincing someone else to do what I want them to do.  Sometimes, I have to convince a judge.  Other times, I have to convince the other side, sometimes I have to convince my client.  And I use different techniques for all.  Sledgehammer sometimes, sweet talk others.  I don't give a shit which - I pick the tool that gets the job done.  Read up on effective leaders -- that's what almost all of them do.  Decide what goal you want to accomplish, then use the right tools to do it.

you are assuming Cuomo wasn't told.

[Wulaw Horn 18980]

16 minutes ago, Longhorn94 said:

No, we dont have any health problems at all. We are all fit and healthy. But as the person who is responsible for keeping my family safe, I am not going to send them out to get sick before there are therapies in place to address. I don't think therapies are that far off. Vaccines are another story. 

I am prepared to do whatever it takes to keep my family happy and healthy. But I don't believe it will be 12-18 months. I believe we can get mass testing in place over the next 60-90 days, if we start now. I believe we will have effective therapies over the same period of time. We have masks so we are good on that one.

Yeah- specifically I had honed in on 2 being a problem as virus treatments are really hard. 

I’m assuming everyone in my family will get it at some point in time and while I don’t welcome it I’m not particularly afraid of it for us. 

My in-laws have multiple co-morbidities and they are sheltering in place until there is a vaccine- which I think is a totally reasonable response to their situation- even if it is 12-18 months. We won’t be doing that but I get why they are. 

Edited April 17, 2020 by Wulaw Horn

[InkaUtexas 25506]

16 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

I bet we are going to get “updated” numbers from China every week or two.  Drip, drip, drip.  

GI Joe Kung Flu grip. 

[Jimbaround 973]

13 minutes ago, Captainant said:

You're over here posting pumping up a conspiracy theory

Is it a conspiracy theory that the Chinese were researching how the virus acts in bats and they had shitty safety procedures?  How is that a conspiracy?  Seems more like negligence to me.

DDD has a good point though: why do we care where it originated?

Edited April 17, 2020 by Jimbaround

[Brisketexan 104590]

5 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

you are assuming Cuomo wasn't told.

No.  I'm assuming that whatever path was followed, it didn't accomplish the goal.  If the goal was to get NY to take stronger measures sooner, someone failed miserably in achieving that goal.  If it was "suggested" to him, it didn't work.  So something else should have been tried.  I've "suggested" to lots of people that they should settle a case.  Sometimes, they don't take that suggestion.  So, I deploy another tool, and get a judgment against them.  Leadership requires using the right tools at the right times to GET RESULTS.  Results are the only metric that matters.

[Sgt Hulk 13647]

55 minutes ago, Longhorn94 said:

Fuck China for how they handled this. Fuck the US Government for how they continue to handle this. 

No one from my family will venture out into the world until:

1. Widespread and readily available testing is put in place so we can isolate and contact trace;

2. Effective therapies have been developed that reduce the risk of serious illness; and

3. Masks are worn until the virus has been effectively defeated.

 

 

Junior?    what If I told you that there are other dangers in the world outside of the rona that can get you too.  Might i suggest a bunker in the nations heartland off the grid get some livestock and learn to garden

[GringoSalado 1651]

12 minutes ago, Captainant said:

You're over here posting pumping up a conspiracy theory that originated from a fox fucking news interview

it did not originate from there. But so what if it had? What if it is accurate? I think CNN is trash but I don't reflexively ignore everything they report because I like to make up my own mind. You should try it.

 

 

[GreenspointTexas 9564]

Elective surgeries back up and running in 5 days

[dcar00 14035]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

No.  I'm assuming that whatever path was followed, it didn't accomplish the goal.  If the goal was to get NY to take stronger measures sooner, someone failed miserably in achieving that goal.  If it was "suggested" to him, it didn't work.  So something else should have been tried.  I've "suggested" to lots of people that they should settle a case.  Sometimes, they don't take that suggestion.  So, I deploy another tool, and get a judgment against them.  Leadership requires using the right tools at the right times to GET RESULTS.  Results are the only metric that matters.

states have rights as Cuomo has asserted many times.

[Foosters 17730]

1 minute ago, Jimbaround said:

Is it a conspiracy theory that the Chinese were researching how the virus acts in bats and they had shitty safety procedures?  How is that a conspiracy?  Seems more like negligence to me.

If the evidence of a fact is limited to investigations by the Epoch times and random YouTube videos, then it's safe to call it a conspiracy theory until additional evidence comes out. 

I haven't been following this that closely, but what you're saying sounds like established fact. Is that the case?

[dcar00 14035]

2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

No.  I'm assuming that whatever path was followed, it didn't accomplish the goal.  If the goal was to get NY to take stronger measures sooner, someone failed miserably in achieving that goal.  If it was "suggested" to him, it didn't work.  So something else should have been tried.  I've "suggested" to lots of people that they should settle a case.  Sometimes, they don't take that suggestion.  So, I deploy another tool, and get a judgment against them.  Leadership requires using the right tools at the right times to GET RESULTS.  Results are the only metric that matters.

and this thing is going to come in under 100K dead and potentially tied with the estimated worst flu season  after it was 2.2M possible.

[Loco 3752]

3 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

  Leadership requires using the right tools at the right times to GET RESULTS.  Results are the only metric that matters.

Settle down Machiavelli

[Brisketexan 104590]

1 minute ago, dcar00 said:

states have rights as Cuomo has asserted many times.

Yes.  They do. And the Feds have powers.  Set up a fight that makes Cuomo look bad, to test the Fed powers.  I don't have to win the fight in court - I just need to make you look bad enough that you eventually decide to save face.  Lots of pressure points.  Lots.  I use them all the time.

[dcar00 14035]

Just now, Brisketexan said:

Yes.  They do. And the Feds have powers.  Set up a fight that makes Cuomo look bad, to test the Fed powers.  I don't have to win the fight in court - I just need to make you look bad enough that you eventually decide to save face.  Lots of pressure points.  Lots.  I use them all the time.

I have no doubt you are brilliant.  again you are assuming that wasn't done.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

13 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Well, I'll do my level best to not going CR.  Cuomo should have been told just that.  But there's a WAY that he should be told - in private, not by news conferences, not by tweets.  Lay out the data, tell him that you'd much prefer that he take these measures - and you can either take the credit, or if you want to point a finger at the Feds, we'll let you do that -- than make you force him to do so.  And it's not just Cuomo -- it's DeSantis, it's even Abbott, it's others.  Have some standards that are based on local metrics, all of which would have been triggered earlier.

It's not just leading.  It's HOW you lead.  

As a "fighting lawyer," I tell people all the time that I just have one job: convincing someone else to do what I want them to do.  Sometimes, I have to convince a judge.  Other times, I have to convince the other side, sometimes I have to convince my client.  And I use different techniques for all.  Sledgehammer sometimes, sweet talk others.  I don't give a shit which - I pick the tool that gets the job done.  Read up on effective leaders -- that's what almost all of them do.  Decide what goal you want to accomplish, then use the right tools to do it.

So a gov. can't make his own decisions  about his own city ?  He certainly made decisions about who was going to be put on ventilators.

Please stop, stop stop with the Monday morning QB'ing. This thing is getting close to the CR angle, and I'm not going there.

[Brisketexan 104590]

2 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

and this thing is going to come in under 100K dead and potentially tied with the estimated worst flu season  after it was 2.2M possible.

If our death toll from inception to vaccine is under 100k, I'll dance in the streets.  Dead serious.  I think a goal of under 250k over the entire course of the disease is more reasonable.

[Brisketexan 104590]

1 minute ago, dcar00 said:

I have no doubt you are brilliant.  again you are assuming that wasn't done.

Actually, I know it wasn't done -- because the Feds didn't order NY to do it.

[GringoSalado 1651]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

If our death toll from inception to vaccine is under 100k, I'll dance in the streets.  

And I'm sure you're a fabulous dancer.

[dcar00 14035]

Just now, Brisketexan said:

Actually, I know it wasn't done -- because the Feds didn't order NY to do it.

they can't.

[utee94 15745]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

If our death toll from inception to vaccine is under 100k, I'll dance in the streets.  Dead serious.  I think a goal of under 250k over the entire course of the disease is more reasonable.

Right-- and still a massive win compared to the original estimates.

[Macanudo 12926]

28 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

I bet we are going to get “updated” numbers from China every week or two.  Drip, drip, drip.  

I've been saying for WEEKS that you should add zeroes to all of Chinas numbers.

[Brisketexan 104590]

1 minute ago, GringoSalado said:

And I'm sure you're a fabulous dancer.

That's a negative, Ghostrider.

1 minute ago, dcar00 said:

they can't.

Sure they can.  It might not ultimately hold up in court.  Those are two different standards.

Just now, utee94 said:

Right-- and still a massive win compared to the original estimates.

Agreed.  Which I think speaks to the measures already taken....and I hope the continued measures (ahem, TESTING) to be taken.

[GringoSalado 1651]

1 minute ago, Captainant said:

Fox is currently defending a lawsuit on their coverage of COVID-19 as 1st amendment protected speech because "false and outrageous speech are protected". They're objectively biased and prone to non-factual reporting. They're literally arguing that in federal court in their own defense. Fuck me for not taking anything they say seriously, right?

...therefore whatever they report is wrong? They can't be right even once?

 

 

Nice heuristic I guess.

[Liquor and Poker 3659]

I've never been a fan of Abbot - but this "plan" seems OK to me.  Mainly because he declared all schools closed for the remainder of the year.

Monday State Parks reopen, but you must wear a mask, not be in groups over 5, and not be within 6 feet of people outside your household.

April 22 - non-essential medical and surgical

April 22 - non-essential retail can go to a to-go/delivery model

April 27 - more orders to continue re-opening

"Strike Force" (OK, that made me actually laugh) list of doctors, politicians and business chiefs was half his speech.

Does this violate the "no politics" thing?  

Edited April 17, 2020 by Liquor and Poker

[Cheeseweasel 26437]

41 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

Well, except, at least for the folks on this thread, China. 

Damn right. I don't think I need to but here's my disclaimer:

Any and all statements by Cheeseweasel in this thread assume that "China is Asshole. Don't Trust China." unless otherwise noted. 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

Actually, I know it wasn't done -- because the Feds didn't order NY to do it.

They didn't have to. He's the MAYOR of his city. He could have done it. He probably had the same general intel as the federal gov't.  

Why didn't Cuomo call for a halt to public gatherings, stop the subways, close restaurants when he knew those were factors ?  You're damned determined to go political.  The veneer of your argument is paper thin.

[dcar00 14035]

4 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

If our death toll from inception to vaccine is under 100k, I'll dance in the streets.  Dead serious.  I think a goal of under 250k over the entire course of the disease is more reasonable.

I actually meant thru end of year but since I didn't say that I will go through Feb next year(approx 12 months).  people are still dying of H1N1 Swine but in very small numbers so it is rolled into seasonal.  

[Bevo 13526]

39 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

Going forward, unless it takes another century for something similar, it will be easier to get things slowed down earlier.  Hell, if people start wearing masks, washing hands rigorously, and sanitizing better, we might not have to reach the total shutdown scenario.  

Except populations and urban areas are growing in much of the country.

[TXSG8R 3360]

20 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

we absolutely should have shut down all foreign incoming travel(except US citzens) at the same time we did China.

Anytime you add except to something, you reduce its effectiveness.  Any travel ban would have been just as problematic without testing and mandatory quarantining of incoming US citizens and very thorough data collection.  Not ask a few questions and check their temps while they stand in a gaggle, actual viral testing upon arrival, and during their quarantine period.  Plane loads should have been isolated upon arrival to reduce contamination of other plane loads, and to reduce the tracing necessary if/when someone popped positive.  As soon as any of them popped during their quarantine period, it would need to reset the test cycle for anyone else that was on that plane with them.    

[bigup2dahorns 3343]

For the first time in 50 years, San Diego Comic Con has been canceled.

Organizers behind the annual event announced Friday that the pop culture celebration would no longer occur in July due to the ongoing coronavirus outbreak. The show will return in 2021.

[justhookit 4178]

Wait, there’s an argument on this thread now that Cuomo should have been told to quarantine and shut down subways  in December?  Admittedly I was listening to Abbott and only skimming this thread.

Edited April 17, 2020 by justhookit

[UT_OB1 2200]

3 minutes ago, Liquor and Poker said:

...

Monday State Parks reopen, but you must wear a mask, not be in groups over 5, and not be within 6 feet of people outside your household.

April 22 - non-essential medical and surgical

April 22 - non-essential retail can go to a to-go/delivery model

April 27 - more orders to continue re-opening

"Strike Force" (OK, that made me actually laugh) list of doctors, politicians and business chiefs was half his speech.

I really hope that Galveston takes this a que to open up the beaches.  Tomorrow.  

[Liquor and Poker 3659]

42 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

Going forward, unless it takes another century for something similar, it will be easier to get things slowed down earlier.  Hell, if people start wearing masks, washing hands rigorously, and sanitizing better, we might not have to reach the total shutdown scenario.  

The burkha was so ahead of its time.

[dcar00 14035]

4 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

That's a negative, Ghostrider.

Sure they can.  It might not ultimately hold up in court.  Those are two different standards.

Agreed.  Which I think speaks to the measures already taken....and I hope the continued measures (ahem, TESTING) to be taken.

It wouldn't hold up in court and both sides know that.  Cuomo did the same with Rhode Island...

[Cheeseweasel 26437]

Just now, bigup2dahorns said:

For the first time in 50 years, San Diego Comic Con has been canceled.