Formerly DT: COVID-19 - Featuring Lots of Politics, now CR because political talk not going away

[Loco 3754]

26 minutes ago, MonkeyDoughnut said:

Even if starting up new, if you've seen a bottling or canning line run you can appreciate the decades of engineering and design improvements that it took to reach the levels they are at now.

I don't think they are suggesting a test in a bottle.  I had no idea there there were so many on Surly pessimistic about American ingenuity or fighting spirit.    Best just let the olds die, it's too hard and I want a haircut.

[Cheeseweasel 26439]

Just now, Loco said:

tl/dr

"I'm no Nobel prize winning economist, but if it can't be done overnight it's not worth doing!"

Do you not believe that companies who have plants, people and equipment to do so aren't already working on this? Should everyone who owns a plant of some sort spend the millions of dollars in re-equipping, retraining work force, licensing to the FDA, etc. to meet a demand that won't be there when they are finished?

[Liquor and Poker 3659]

3 minutes ago, Loco said:

tl/dr

"I'm no Nobel prize winning economist, but if it can't be done overnight it's not worth doing!"

A lot of good things happen at night. 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

1 minute ago, Brew said:

Our local hospital bought the equipment needed for same day results over a month ago. It wasn’t a very expensive piece of equipment in the grand scheme of things. A month later and they are still waiting to get the reagents required to run the test, so all local testing is still going through the state health department and taking 5+ days for results. They have been told multiple times they would have the reagent soon, but still nothing.

Things take time regardless of the need.  Supply chains are physical things, not theoretical problems.  I'm sure people are moving as fast as they can.

[Liquor and Poker 3659]

Just now, Loco said:

I don't think they are suggesting a test in a bottle.  I had no idea there there were so many on Surly pessimistic about American ingenuity or fighting spirit.    Best just let the olds die, it's too hard and I want a haircut.

“American fighting spirit” has largely been directed at each other for the better part of three decades. 

[SydneyCarton 49504]

13 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

I don't think he was suggesting that we should rely on the market for the $50 billion. 

No, that part I got. I assume it would still take time for Abbott or another entity in the pharmaceutical industry to ramp up testing. But, I'm pretty sure if we gave them $50 billion to do it, it could happen pretty fucking quickly (I mean fuck, that is more than a quarter of their entire market cap). 

I addressed that in my post when I specified “operated at a net loss by the government.” Thats a lot of money for a temporary demand need. And you know what it still wont happen overnight. Or even in a couple months. Has Ford delivered any ventilators yet? Will they at all? Maybe they’ll be useful in a second wave. 
 

Were better off taking a step back and formulating a plan and facility for manufacturing and testing development from start to finish that we can transition to different tests for different diseases and have it be a government thing. As opposed to rushing off on knee jerk fantasies by ivory tower clowns with no practical experience in how any of this works but can give a good sound byte. 

Edited April 23, 2020 by SydneyCarton

[Cheeseweasel 26439]

Just now, Onboard 2.0 said:

Things take time regardless of the need.  Supply chains are physical things, not theoretical problems.  I'm sure people are moving as fast as they can.

Nah. Every plant has a Big Red Button that instantaneously switches product lines. WHY AREN'T WE JUST PUSHING THE BUTTON?!?!?!

[SydneyCarton 49504]

4 minutes ago, Brew said:

Our local hospital bought the equipment needed for same day results over a month ago. It wasn’t a very expensive piece of equipment in the grand scheme of things. A month later and they are still waiting to get the reagents required to run the test, so all local testing is still going through the state health department and taking 5+ days for results. They have been told multiple times they would have the reagent soon, but still nothing.

Exactly. Which I referenced in my first post. 

Edited April 23, 2020 by SydneyCarton

[XYZ 2154]

That America has to rely on China for almost every chemical is insane.

[SydneyCarton 49504]

4 minutes ago, Loco said:

I don't think they are suggesting a test in a bottle.  I had no idea there there were so many on Surly pessimistic about American ingenuity or fighting spirit.    Best just let the olds die, it's too hard and I want a haircut.

That video clip was literally a guy suggesting a test in a bottle overnight. I’m not pessimistic about ingenuity. I’m realistic about how the world works. Saying “go america were the best!” Isnt a fucking solution either, it’s just shouting at clouds and living in a delusion. Sort of like someone shouting Jesus will heal the Covid if you is it attend sermons and congregate for prayer. Saying it doesn’t make it real. 

[TexasGolf 5465]

43 minutes ago, MonkeyDoughnut said:

Absolutely and I bet we'll be able to by 2022, but what will we do in the meantime?

use contaminated ones from CDC and China ?

[stone oak 639]

3 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

Nah. Every plant has a Big Red Button that instantaneously switches product lines. WHY AREN'T WE JUST PUSHING THE BUTTON?!?!?!

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

3 minutes ago, Loco said:

I don't think they are suggesting a test in a bottle.  I had no idea there there were so many on Surly pessimistic about American ingenuity or fighting spirit.    Best just let the olds die, it's too hard and I want a haircut.

It's not pessimism, it's Reality. Of course there are companies working to get tests created, approved, supply chains set up, materials ordered, and shipped, funds released.

Thanks Monty Python,

Alan: Hello. 

Noel: Hello. 

Alan: Well, last week we showed you how to become a gynaecologist. And this week on 'How to do it' we're going to show you how to play the flute, how to split an atom, how to construct a box girder bridge, how to irrigate the Sahara Desert and make vast new areas of land cultivatable, but first, here's Jackie to tell you all how to rid the world of all known diseases. 

Jackie: Hello, Alan. 

Alan: Hello, Jackie. 

Jackie: Well, first of all become a doctor and discover a marvelous cure for something, and then, when the medical profession really starts to take notice of you, you can jolly well tell them what to do and make sure they get everything right so there'll never be any diseases ever again. 

Alan: Thanks, Jackie. Great idea. How to play the flute. (picking up a flute) Well here we are. You blow there and you move your fingers up and down here. 

Noel: Great, great, Alan. Well, next week we'll be showing you how black and white people can live together in peace and harmony, and Alan will be over in Moscow showing us how to reconcile the Russians and the Chinese. So, until next week, cheerio. 

Alan: Bye. 

Jackie: Bye. 

 

[GabrielsHorn 2246]

Just now, XYZ said:

That America has to rely on China for almost every chemical is insane.

Our reliance on them for our healthcare needs is not good. Freakonomics today interviewed two people who focus on US-China relations, and the idea they floated was viewing health care (PPE, antibiotics, etc) as a national security issue for other resources due to China’s actions during this pandemic. Hard to argue against it at this point, even if it would be costly. 

[Loco 3754]

Just now, Cheeseweasel said:

Do you not believe that companies who have plants, people and equipment to do so aren't already working on this? Should everyone who owns a plant of some sort spend the millions of dollars in re-equipping, retraining work force, licensing to the FDA, etc. to meet a demand that won't be there when they are finished?

No I don't believe the majority of companies (within reason) are working towards bulk testing.  There are probably extant capabilities that are need that are unknown...  no project coordination.  Most are trying to enrich their shareholders and that big retooling is not in shareholder's best interests is it?  

Do you believe the free market/private sector would have delivered the atomic bomb with out government direction/resources?

[CleverNickname 1345]

So is the plan:

(1) we shelter in place and keep it so few ever get Covid19, stalling until a vaccine or excellent treatment is available? Or

(2) we shelter in place, knowing eventually most will get it, but doing enough to "flatten the curve?"

Because if its #2 I will volunteer for variolation trials. If I am going to get it, give me a lose dose exposure in controlled circumstances. 

[GabrielsHorn 2246]

3 minutes ago, Loco said:

No I don't believe the majority of companies (within reason) are working towards bulk testing.  There are probably extant capabilities that are need that are unknown...  no project coordination.  Most are trying to enrich their shareholders and that big retooling is not in shareholder's best interests is it?  

Do you believe the free market/private sector would have delivered the atomic bomb with out government direction/resources?

Uh, just two counter points off the top of my head. 

Exhibit A: Abbott developing a test rapidly into this, even though there are issues scaling production and getting it to people. 
 

Exhibit B: The modern space race between labs to develop a vaccine that has been going on since the genome was decoded in January. 

[Cheeseweasel 26439]

3 minutes ago, Loco said:

Do you believe the free market/private sector would have delivered the atomic bomb with out government direction/resources?

If there was a market for atomic bombs, yes.

[Dahobbs 18324]

8 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

So just hand out $50b without any plan, just give it to them ?  And by plan I mean something that is workable and definitely feasible.  $50b Plans aren't created over night. The mans comments are typical of high IQ folks who live in a world of academia not the real world.

 

2 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

I addressed that in my post when I specified “operated at a net loss by the government.” Thats a lot of lonely for a temporary demand need. And you know what it still wont happen overnight. Or even in a couple months. Has Ford delivered any ventilators yet? Will they at all? Maybe they’ll be useful in a second wave. 
 

Were better off taking a step back and formulating a plan and facility for manufacturing and testing development from start to finish that we can transition to different tests for different diseases and have it be a government thing. As opposed to rushing off on knee jerk fantasies by ivory tower clowns with no practical experience in how any of this works but can give a good sound byte. 

Man, y'all just jump up and down over nothing. No one said "don't come up with a plan, just hand them the money." No one said it would happen over night. Hell, I don't think anyone said it would happen in a month. The argument was that we should have an ability to test in mass so that we can deal with this and other pandemics. And, in order to do that, we should heavily invest in developing that ability. The market is a wonderful thing for resource allocation, but sometimes it doesn't operate efficiently when handling common, but dispersed needs. This is a tragedy of the commons/prisoner's dilemma type of situation. I mean, fuck, Sydney, I'm pretty sure if you talked to the guy he'd agree with everything you just said. But no, y'all listened to the first part of the plan, or rather the  bare formation of an idea, and decided to attack because he sounded like an "ivory tower clown." I'm perplexed by this reaction. 

[Scary Stranger 1726]

So what I got out of all this is that soda can cure covid19.  Right?

[po elvis 2141]

3 minutes ago, CleverNickname said:

So is the plan:

(1) we shelter in place and keep it so few ever get Covid19, stalling until a vaccine or excellent treatment is available? Or

(2) we shelter in place, knowing eventually most will get it, but doing enough to "flatten the curve?"

Because if its #2 I will volunteer for variolation trials. If I am going to get it, give me a lose dose exposure in controlled circumstances. 

How bout just give you some blood with the antibodies instead?

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

Just now, Dahobbs said:

 

Man, y'all just jump up and down over nothing. No one said "don't come up with a plan, just hand them the money." No one said it would happen over night. Hell, I don't think anyone said it would happen in a month. The argument was that we should have an ability to test in mass so that we can deal with this and other pandemics. And, in order to do that, we should heavily invest in developing that ability. The market is a wonderful thing for resource allocation, but sometimes it doesn't operate efficiently when handling common, but dispersed needs. This is a tragedy of the commons/prisoner's dilemma type of situation. I mean, fuck, Sydney, I'm pretty sure if you talked to the guy he'd agree with everything you just said. But no, y'all listened to the first part of the plan, or rather the  bare formation of an idea, and decided to attack because he sounded like an "ivory tower clown." I'm perplexed by this reaction. 

Look, the mans own words made this steam of the thread. We can make x number cans of soda, but can't make tests (for a new) virus at the same rate. It was a silly comment from someone who doesn't work in an actual economy.  Ivory tower condo dweller is not exactly a far fetched idea regarding a Nobel laureate.

[Cheeseweasel 26439]

2 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

But no, y'all listened to the first part of the plan, or rather the  bare formation of an idea, and decided to attack because he sounded like an "ivory tower clown." I'm perplexed by this reaction. 

No. I listened to the talking head that was posted from the CNN clip and he said (paraphrased) Soda costs 50 billion dollars to produce and we should spend 50 billion dollars to produce tests.

I stand by my assertion that this is naive as hell and this "Nobel Prize" winner should comment on things he knows about, not things he doesn't. If my annual costs to produce a product is 50 billion dollars, it is ridiculous to believe that I could spend that same amount of money to produce a brand new product. Has the Nobel Prize winner ever heard of startup costs? 

[Hate 20249]

Why do you want people to die??!!!!

[gmr548 16701]

even if it would be costly. 

Aaaaaand you just lost corporate America.

[SydneyCarton 49504]

5 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

 

Man, y'all just jump up and down over nothing. No one said "don't come up with a plan, just hand them the money." No one said it would happen over night. Hell, I don't think anyone said it would happen in a month. The argument was that we should have an ability to test in mass so that we can deal with this and other pandemics. And, in order to do that, we should heavily invest in developing that ability. The market is a wonderful thing for resource allocation, but sometimes it doesn't operate efficiently when handling common, but dispersed needs. This is a tragedy of the commons/prisoner's dilemma type of situation. I mean, fuck, Sydney, I'm pretty sure if you talked to the guy he'd agree with everything you just said. But no, y'all listened to the first part of the plan, or rather the  bare formation of an idea, and decided to attack because he sounded like an "ivory tower clown." I'm perplexed by this reaction. 

I outlined what I think should happen several posts before this one. Guess what, it looks a lot like what you typed. The reason everyone reacted that way to the guy in that video was because he sensationalized the issue and used it as a chastisement of our ability using a stupid oversimplification. His comments werent benign, and shockingly enough neither was the response to them. And you came here to defend it. Hence the reaction. 
 

And if you or others are going to make blanket statements of all the things we should do, without a timeline or expectations, well fuck, why stop at this? You know what, we make a lot of soda every day. We should cure cancer. Maybe world hunger while we’re at it, god knows we grow enough food, amirite!?! 

Stop being obtuse, or stop being naive about that guys comments, and ideally stop being both. 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

Just now, Hate said:

Why do you want people to die??!!!!

I'm opening a mortuary ............ I need product.

[SydneyCarton 49504]

1 minute ago, Hate said:

Why do you want people to die??!!!!

Forgot to sign your post -Loco

[Cheeseweasel 26439]

4 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

I'm opening a mortuary ............ I need product.

[GabrielsHorn 2246]

4 minutes ago, gmr548 said:

 

 

Aaaaaand you just lost corporate America.

 

Ha, it would definitely require some government funding or creating incentives to build it. They also discussed using our allies that we trust to not make faulty medical equipment (South Korea, Taiwan, Japan, Germany, etc) to help and also help with our global partnerships. It definitely would be complicated and costly, but would help significantly in the long run to either get China to actually play ball or weaken them by strengthening our partners in East Asia. 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

Just now, Cheeseweasel said:

So does death my friend.....

[Dahobbs 18324]

Just now, SydneyCarton said:

I outlined what I think should happen several posts before this one. Guess what, it looks a lot like what you typed. The reason everyone reacted that way to the guy in that video was because he sensationalized the issue and used it as a chastisement of our ability using a stupid oversimplification. His comments werent benign, and shockingly enough neither was the response to them. And you came here to defend it. Hence the reaction. 
 

And if you or others are going to make blanket statements of all the things we should do, without a timeline or expectations, well fuck, why stop at this? You know what, we make a lot of soda every day. We should cure cancer. Maybe world hunger while we’re at it, god knows we grow enough food, amirite!?! 

Stop being obtuse, or stop being naive about that guys comments, and ideally stop being both. 

He didn't do any of those things, at least not in that clip. Y'all just inferred it was there because you were looking for something to be offended by. It was a just a soundbite, which by its very nature is short and rarely represents the complete thought. He said we should spend significantly more resources on testing, in line with want we spend on everyday luxuries, and that doing so would increase our ability to test. Those shouldn't have been controversial statements. 

[Cheeseweasel 26439]

Just now, Dahobbs said:

He said we should spend significantly more resources on testing, in line with want we spend on everyday luxuries,

He's mixing personal spending with government spending. My cutting back on "soda" shouldn't matter. It's stupid and he should give his prize back for being that dumb.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

Just now, Dahobbs said:

He didn't do any of those things, at least not in that clip. Y'all just inferred it was there because you were looking for something to be offended by. It was a just a soundbite, which by its very nature is short and rarely represents the complete thought. He said we should spend significantly more resources on testing, in line with want we spend on everyday luxuries, and that doing so would increase our ability to test. Those shouldn't have been controversial statements. 

 How do you spend before hand for a test for a virus that has just burst on the scene ?  

What we should be spending on is a huge stock pile of masks, gloves, other viral protection equipment, and clothing, immediate care MASH style filed hospitals.  Those are things we can spend on (thru gov't resources).

[SydneyCarton 49504]

4 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

He didn't do any of those things, at least not in that clip. Y'all just inferred it was there because you were looking for something to be offended by. It was a just a soundbite, which by its very nature is short and rarely represents the complete thought. He said we should spend significantly more resources on testing, in line with want we spend on everyday luxuries, and that doing so would increase our ability to test. Those shouldn't have been controversial statements. 

They shouldn't be, sure, but maybe he should pick something other than a private, for profit industry to make his comparison. "Americans buy TVs, they should pay for Tests" doesn't really ring true to many people. He should have said "National Defense" or any host of other things. Also, this is news to me, but the US Government gives 50 billion a year to the Soda Industry to make and sell Soda?

[SydneyCarton 49504]

1 minute ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

 How do you spend before hand for a test for a virus that has just burst on the scene ?  

What we should be spending on is a huge stock pile of masks, gloves, other viral protection equipment, and clothing, immediate care MASH style filed hospitals.  Those are things we can spend on (thru gov't resources).

I mean, I think those things can go hand in hand. A big government set of labs that handle a wide array of testing capabilities, as well as potentially tied in manufacturing ability of reagents and other supplies we need makes sense, and it makes sense to be operating by a not "For Profit" company. There's plenty of ways to look at it. PPE and the things you mention could be a branch of this operation, etc. 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

Just now, SydneyCarton said:

I mean, I think those things can go hand in hand. A big government set of labs that handle a wide array of testing capabilities, as well as potentially tied in manufacturing ability of reagents and other supplies we need makes sense, and it makes sense to be operating by a not "For Profit" company. There's plenty of ways to look at it. PPE and the things you mention could be a branch of this operation, etc. 

They can, but the testing facility component is going to be on stand by a lot. 

[Cheeseweasel 26439]

3 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

Also, this is news to me, but the US Government gives 50 billion a year to the Soda Industry to make and sell Soda?

Fucking Big Soda, man.

[The Dog 44861]

That America has to rely on China for almost every chemical is insane.

[SydneyCarton 49504]

1 minute ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

They can, but the testing facility component is going to be on stand by a lot. 

Yeah. So are air craft carriers and airplanes. Defense is defense. There's a fuck ton of energy plants in Texas that sit around on Standby all year till summertime as well. 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

Just now, SydneyCarton said:

Yeah. So are air craft carriers and airplanes. Defense is defense. There's a fuck ton of energy plants in Texas that sit around on Standby all year till summertime as well. 

We keep those at sea, manned and in a constant state of drilling. Is that what we do with the labs ?  I don't think the energy plants are a good example.  They do one very known thing. Testing facilities would have to deal with an Incalculable amount of potential new viruses.  The point isn't lost on me though.

[ChickenSandwich 9959]

Is all of this about a test for anti-bodies or just a test for the virus?  
 

[Dahobbs 18324]

 

2 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

 How do you spend before hand for a test for a virus that has just burst on the scene ?  

What we should be spending on is a huge stock pile of masks, gloves, other viral protection equipment, and clothing, immediate care MASH style filed hospitals.  Those are things we can spend on (thru gov't resources).

He just said we should spend more. He didn't say anything about whether we should have spent more before the virus hit. But, in general, its probably a good idea to have a national apparatus capable of mass producing these kinds of tests. 

1 minute ago, SydneyCarton said:

They shouldn't be, sure, but maybe he should pick something other than a private, for profit industry to make his comparison. "Americans buy TVs, they should pay for Tests" doesn't really ring true to many people. He should have said "National Defense" or any host of other things. Also, this is news to me, but the US Government gives 50 billion a year to the Soda Industry to make and sell Soda?

Why? What does it matter that the soda industry is private? He was just giving a different way to think about priorities. If we're willing to spend 50 billion a year on producing soda as a society, maybe we should be willing to spend that on an important health function like testing. You may disagree, but I don't think it is inflammatory to make that suggestion. 

4 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

He's mixing personal spending with government spending. My cutting back on "soda" shouldn't matter. It's stupid and he should give his prize back for being that dumb.

He didn't say to sacrifice your soda. He was just illustrating the amount of resources we allocate to something fairly mundane and unimportant. 

Again, this all looks like an exercise in looking to be offended as opposed to just considering the actual idea presented. This emotional response is completely out of line with the original clip and suggestion, but I do understand what motivates it even if I think it is misplaced here.

[MonkeyDoughnut 10803]

43 minutes ago, Loco said:

I don't think they are suggesting a test in a bottle.  I had no idea there there were so many on Surly pessimistic about American ingenuity or fighting spirit.    Best just let the olds die, it's too hard and I want a haircut.

By saying they could churn out 30M tests a day by 2022 I think I was showing great optimism and praise in American ingenuity and fighting spirit.  Producing a million of anything is not an easy task. Producing 30M a day is incredible and doing it daily (remember they have to source, produce and distribute) requires some time for logistics alone.

I mean we're talking ~350 tests per second for a single plant running 24/7 with absolutely no down time.  So likely would need like a dozen high capacity plants to ramp up for a single test that likely will need to change many times.

...Or could just tweet something out to disparage the perceived lack of effort or care

[stone oak 639]

41 minutes ago, Hate said:

Why do you want people to die??!!!!

Ballgame!!!!!!!

[Cheeseweasel 26439]

24 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

Again, this all looks like an exercise in looking to be offended as opposed to just considering the actual idea presented.

Nah, man. It's a shitty idea and it should be mocked. It's like saying "we should listen to the people saying we should intentionally expose people to flatten the curve". We shouldn't "consider the actual idea presented", we should mock it for being dumb.

[Js1 87185]

1 hour ago, Scary Stranger said:

So what I got out of all this is that soda can cure covid19.  Right?

Glad I'm in the office today.  Gonna walk outta here with about 12 24-packs of soda. 

[Cheeseweasel 26439]

2 minutes ago, Js1 said:

Glad I'm in the office today.  Gonna walk outta here with about 12 24-packs of soda. 

Ball game.

[MNLonghornFUKM 8984]

https://www.mercurynews.com/gov-newsom-coroners-to-examine-deaths-dating-back-to-december-for-covid-19-death-toll-tops-1350

Cali about to start looking into December deaths

[Hate 20249]

Glad I'm in the office today.  Gonna walk outta here with about 12 24-packs of soda. 

You should be walking out with 288 tests instead you bastard - dahobbs & loco