Formerly DT: COVID-19 - Featuring Lots of Politics, now CR because political talk not going away

[The Dog 44,774]

30 minutes ago, gmr548 said:

 

 

That's not the post I quoted. The post I quoted was based on the leading question, "Do you really think there's better out there?" Thats a silly question because 1.) What data there is says yes, and 2.) That's highly subjective and heavily influenced by your individual circumstances. Either way, to ask that question as if it's absurd is dead wrong.

As for the gap in life expectancy between Canada, US, and Mexico: the UN rankings for 2019 have Canada at 82.3 years, USA at 78.9 years (3.4 year gap), and Mexico at 75.0 years (3.9 year gap). Other sources effective less recently but within the past five years estinate a similar gap. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/list_of_countries_by_life_expectancy

You could pick nits about being a couple months better than right in the middle, but you get the point. I would imagine it's abject poverty in black and rural communities in this country that doesn't exist in Canada, and really does resemble third world conditions, that explains that difference.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_life_expectancy

Take a look at the states with increased life expectancy and those with decreased life expectancy. It's not what you'd expect. 

(life expectancy talk not going away)

Edited May 13, 2020 by The Dog
pasted wrong link derp

[Wulaw Horn 19,561]

1 hour ago, gmr548 said:

In terms of health and quality of life indicators, America is not on par with northern/western Europe, Canada, etc. We are decidedly below. Life expectancy fell for four straight years from 2015-18. The gap between us and Canada is as wide as the gap between us and Mexico.

Depending on how you look at it, America's usually somewhere in the 20-40 tier for overall quality of life. The only things we're objectively number one at are incarceration, 'beetus, and college football. I'll stick around for the last one but let's not pretend it's silly to say other places are better off.

America is still a really great place to be in the top 20-25 percent or so. Added bonus if you happen to be white. Beyond that, we're looking more and more like the former Soviet bloc or better off nations in Latin America every year. Sure, I'm glad I'm from here as opposed to most other places in the world, but right now we're absolutely the shitty house in the nice neighborhood. We need to get our shit together before we have to move to the other side of town.

Ultimately it's subjective, but blind American exceptionalism in the face of a different reality is like a 7-5 team touting its superiority. Don't be aggy.

You are the one equating us to Eastern Europe and Latin America. Good god get ahold of yourself. 

Also as a bonus, based upon your American Citizenship if you don’t actually like it here you more or less have the opportunity to move wherever the hell you want in the rest of the world. 

I will believe I wasn’t fortunate to be born in America when I see the rests of the fucking world stop trying to immigrate here. 

Edited May 13, 2020 by Wulaw Horn

[Treefidy 1,504]

Anyone else  ever get the feeling the occupational backgrounds on surly look something like this?

5 physicians, 2 accountants, 3 realtors, couple of small business owners, maybe a dozen tech guys, a military lifer or two, half a dozen construction contractors, couple of teachers, a few unemployed oil barons, a handful of retirees, 4 professional douchebags and around 6,000 lawyers?

 

[The Dog 44,774]

Just now, Treefidy said:

Anyone else  ever get the feeling the occupational backgrounds on surly look something like this?

5 physicians, 2 accountants, 3 realtors, couple of small business owners, maybe a dozen tech guys, a military lifer or two, half a dozen construction contractors, couple of teachers, a few unemployed oil barons, a handful of retirees, 4 professional douchebags and around 6,000 lawyers?

 

Most of us are just gainfully employed slackers.

[Cheeseweasel 26,439]

Canada talk not going away. Are they part of the realignment?

[Hate 20,232]

You could have just said 6004 douchebags.

[workswithseed 2,201]

13 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

Spend January in the PNW then report back on winter in Vancouver.

I'm tired of the shitty weather.

[Wulaw Horn 19,561]

8 minutes ago, Treefidy said:

Anyone else  ever get the feeling the occupational backgrounds on surly look something like this?

5 physicians, 2 accountants, 3 realtors, couple of small business owners, maybe a dozen tech guys, a military lifer or two, half a dozen construction contractors, couple of teachers, a few unemployed oil barons, a handful of retirees, 4 professional douchebags and around 6,000 lawyers?

 

I own 2 small businesses in real estate and am a lawyer. Was a teacher for a couple years. Had a brief investment in oil. Helped my mom and dad and brother build some spec homes. This hits close to home. 

[MNLonghornFUKM 8,964]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_life_expectancy
Take a look at the states with increased life expectancy and those with decreased life expectancy. It's not what you'd expect. 
(life expectancy talk not going away)

Everything is bigger in Texas. Besides life expectancy

[gmr548 16,681]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_life_expectancy
Take a look at the states with increased life expectancy and those with decreased life expectancy. It's not what you'd expect. 
(life expectancy talk not going away)

You wouldn't expect secsecsec to be at the bottom with actual developing nation numbers?

You are the one equating is to Easyern Europe and Latin America. Good god get ahold of yourself. 
Also as a bonus, based upon your American Citizenship if you don’t actually like it here you more or less have the opportunity to move wherever the hell you want in the rest of the world. 
I will believe I wasn’t fortunate to be born in America when I see the rests of the fucking world stop trying to immigrate here. 

I didn't say that, I said that's the trend, but it keep showing your ass with some absolutist bullshit.

[SydneyCarton 49,334]

Hahaha. No wonder I got PMs from folks wondering if rational people who actually wanted to talk about the Coronavirus had gone somewhere else to converse. I fucking pop back in here and skim the last 2 pages to see an actual conversation has erupted discussing on whether or not America is a fucking good place to live or be born, and people actually have to come on and fucking defend it. Oh, and it's been spearheaded by WashparkHorn? Well knock me over with a motherfuckin' feather.  

But I'm sure to a substantial chunk of posters on this thread, this is in no way shape or form a political discussion, amirite?  Looks like my lack of urgency to seek any kind or Coronavirus updates the last couple weeks was well timed. Jesus fucking christ, some of you fucking people. I've got a buddy who did several tours in the army, ended up working as a handler for CIA operatives all over the world. Let him spend 45 minutes talking to you about the level of hopeless, depressing, utter despair it is to be born and living in Africa, where life means literally nothing and graft is a way of life at every political level (in ways the pieces of shit US politicians can't even fathom as possible) and tell me you're not lucky to be born an American after the first 5 minutes. A place where adult males rape 8 year old girls and their reasoning is their semen will CURE them of AIDS. Or maybe you can be a rural peasant in communist china, where the pollution of water and air pretty much guarantees you're going to live to 45-50 tops and die of a really shitty kind of cancer. A place with over a billion people. But yeah, you've gotta wonder if you were lucky to be born in the United States. 

I'm not even going to waste my time with a specific rebuke on how stupid a statement that us, I'm just going to render a hearty Fuck You to anyone seriously rationalizing that line of thought. Some of you motherfuckers, I swear. But yeah, this is the non political Coronavirus thread. Go hug your family, and try to stop going out of your way to find reasons to be miserable. 

Edited May 13, 2020 by SydneyCarton

[Captainant 28,410]

6 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

Go hugh your family

Jackman or Grant?

[Brisketexan 106,641]

 

Just now, gmr548 said:

I didn't say that, I said that's the trend, but it keep showing your ass with some absolutist bullshit.

Bingo.  Folks love to spend a lot of time talking about where we've been as a country (and as someone whose family had to drink from separate drinking fountains etc. in much of Texas for much of the last century, oh, let's DO talk about how great things were for huge chunks of our population), but what matters is where we're going and where we've been going.  Every trend line that matters puts us more in line with countries we generally don't admire.

The fact that we choose to ignore that to just shout over and over 'GREATEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD!" just means that we are committed to not doing a damned thing to reverse those trends.

I have a fine life here - I'm top whatever percent.  I was born with an intellect, and parents who had the means to foster it, and a state university system that was cheap as hell to hone it and equip me for professional life.  Yippee.  I can also find plenty of folks who live a grand life in countries many would describe as shitty.  The top tier does well wherever you go.  That's not where our problems are.  As emphasized by the attitude so many people are taking towards simple measures to protect their fellow man in this crisis, like wearing masks, we're killing our middle class and the common good at the altar of "ME, MY, AND MINE!"

It makes me sad as hell.  We could be so much more, but we consciously choose not to, at the expense of the well-being of the vast majority of our countrymen.  I just don't get it.

[SydneyCarton 49,334]

Just now, Captainant said:

Jackman or Grant?

I actually edited and fixed thattype like 4 minutes before you quoted it. FOR THE RECORD.

[SydneyCarton 49,334]

19 minutes ago, Captainant said:

Jackman or Grant?

Also, that's a pretty tough one. Hugh Jackman is great, but I have to admit that Grant's recent turn in The Gentleman is possibly the best work of his career. 

[NeverMarryAStripper 22,242]

2 hours ago, gmr548 said:

In terms of health and quality of life indicators, America is not on par with northern/western Europe, Canada, etc. We are decidedly below. Life expectancy fell for four straight years from 2015-18. The gap between us and Canada is as wide as the gap between us and Mexico.

Depending on how you look at it, America's usually somewhere in the 20-40 tier for overall quality of life. The only things we're objectively number one at are incarceration, 'beetus, and college football. I'll stick around for the last one but let's not pretend it's silly to say other places are better off.

America is still a really great place to be in the top 20-25 percent or so. Added bonus if you happen to be white. Beyond that, we're looking more and more like the former Soviet bloc or better off nations in Latin America every year. Sure, I'm glad I'm from here as opposed to most other places in the world, but right now we're absolutely the shitty house in the nice neighborhood. We need to get our shit together before we have to move to the other side of town.

Ultimately it's subjective, but blind American exceptionalism in the face of a different reality is like a 7-5 team touting its superiority. Don't be aggy.

 

[Brisketexan 106,641]

As further emphasis as to how the US is seen as a source of the disease, not a solution, the current discussion is that Canada will extend its ban on non-essential travel from the US through June 21: https://thepostmillennial.com/canada-us-border-likely-to-remain-closed-through-june-21?fbclid=IwAR3I0D2-aTC74m2215TlFNTQ6gqgB02sEcGxndHnNA019Ly6Nwfkdao5iaM

Cool, cool.

[Cheeseweasel 26,439]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

As further emphasis as to how the US is seen as a source of the disease, not a solution,

Keep pushing that CCP propaganda.

[Js1 86,953]

1 minute ago, Cheeseweasel said:

Keep pushing that CCP propaganda.

It says a source, not the source  

Keep burying your head in the sand. America can do and has done no wrong! LOOK CHINA! 

[Brisketexan 106,641]

2 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

Keep pushing that CCP propaganda.

Are you clinically insane?  A country that borders ours -- with a much lower number of cases -- doesn't want people from the adjoining country with a much higher number of cases coming in and infecting them.  Note that Canada also has similar restrictions as to other high-infection countries (yep, including China).

Just now, Js1 said:

It says a source, not the source  

Keep burying your head in the sand. America can do and has done no wrong! LOOK CHINA! 

That's all he can do.  America is not a hazard to Canada at all....because China.  It's a fascinating intellectual exercise to watch.

[SHOOTER12 8,883]

52 minutes ago, Treefidy said:

Anyone else  ever get the feeling the occupational backgrounds on surly look something like this?

5 physicians, 2 accountants, 3 realtors, couple of small business owners, maybe a dozen tech guys, a military lifer or two, half a dozen construction contractors, couple of teachers, a few unemployed oil barons, a handful of retirees, 4 professional douchebags and around 6,000 lawyers?

 

 

50 minutes ago, The Dog said:

Most of us are just gainfully employed slackers.

Oh hell, you mean we're not paid to surf Surly all day?

[Cheeseweasel 26,439]

I like you guys. Outside of the political bullshit, you guys are great posters so I'm not going to "match insults" over something that is opinion. 

Enjoy the rest of your day & we'll chat about better things on other threads. I'm done with this one.

Peace, friends.

[Js1 86,953]

4 minutes ago, SHOOTER12 said:

 

Oh hell, you mean we're not paid to surf Surly all day?

Shit don’t tell my employer 

[SHOOTER12 8,883]

2 minutes ago, Js1 said:

Shit don’t tell my employer 

Lulz, mine either

[TornACL 7,792]

1 hour ago, Incredulity said:

Well maybe if you have 1, or a half dozen points to look at....

But thousands of restaurants with dozens of customers each night for two weeks.  It's data so massive maybe the NSA could process it.  No way the county health board, with newly on-boarded "contact tracers" is capable.

If anyone took any fucking accountability in this country, a positive test case could, ya know, immediately contact at least some of the high traffic places he visited over the past 10 days. 

 

[gmr548 16,681]

 

I'm not even going there, but the fact that one would mock the idea that somewhere better off might exist, then become a defensive little bitch when called out on that, is laughable.

 

I'd rather live here than most/any other place in the world and said as much, but the only rebuttal is to twist my words and go with the 'ol standby "If you don't like it you can get out," which doesn't actually address anything.

 

It's apolotical. America is where it is because of a long line of actions from both major political parties. We can be better. It's okay to admit that. Bottom line, don't spout dumb bullshit, won't get called out on dumb bullshit.

 

[aggie08 21,734]

1 hour ago, SydneyCarton said:

Hahaha. No wonder I got PMs from folks wondering if rational people who actually wanted to talk about the Coronavirus had gone somewhere else to converse. I fucking pop back in here and skim the last 2 pages to see an actual conversation has erupted discussing on whether or not America is a fucking good place to live or be born, and people actually have to come on and fucking defend it. Oh, and it's been spearheaded by WashparkHorn? Well knock me over with a motherfuckin' feather.  

But I'm sure to a substantial chunk of posters on this thread, this is in no way shape or form a political discussion, amirite?  Looks like my lack of urgency to seek any kind or Coronavirus updates the last couple weeks was well timed. Jesus fucking christ, some of you fucking people. I've got a buddy who did several tours in the army, ended up working as a handler for CIA operatives all over the world. Let him spend 45 minutes talking to you about the level of hopeless, depressing, utter despair it is to be born and living in Africa, where life means literally nothing and graft is a way of life at every political level (in ways the pieces of shit US politicians can't even fathom as possible) and tell me you're not lucky to be born an American after the first 5 minutes. A place where adult males rape 8 year old girls and their reasoning is their semen will CURE them of AIDS. Or maybe you can be a rural peasant in communist china, where the pollution of water and air pretty much guarantees you're going to live to 45-50 tops and die of a really shitty kind of cancer. A place with over a billion people. But yeah, you've gotta wonder if you were lucky to be born in the United States. 

I'm not even going to waste my time with a specific rebuke on how stupid a statement that us, I'm just going to render a hearty Fuck You to anyone seriously rationalizing that line of thought. Some of you motherfuckers, I swear. But yeah, this is the non political Coronavirus thread. Go hug your family, and try to stop going out of your way to find reasons to be miserable. 

Hyperbole much? Jesus.

No one anywhere has said that America isn't a great place to live and be born in.

[StruggleBus 3,922]

27 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Are you clinically insane?  A country that borders ours -- with a much lower number of cases -- doesn't want people from the adjoining country with a much higher number of cases coming in and infecting them.  Note that Canada also has similar restrictions as to other high-infection countries (yep, including China).

File this under "no shit, brisket"

What are you even arguing here? 

[Coelenterate Fuccboi 13,387]

1 hour ago, MNLonghornFUKM said:

Everything is bigger in Texas. Besides life expectancy

Would take 50 years in Texas over 70 years in Oklahoma.

[Wulaw Horn 19,561]

15 minutes ago, gmr548 said:

I'm not even going there, but the fact that one would mock the idea that somewhere better off might exist, then become a defensive little bitch when called out on that, is laughable.

 

I'd rather live here than most/any other place in the world and said as much, but the only rebuttal is to twist my words and go with the 'ol standby "If you don't like it you can get out," which doesn't actually address anything.

 

It's apolotical. America is where it is because of a long line of actions from both major political parties. We can be better. It's okay to admit that. Bottom line, don't spout dumb bullshit, won't get called out on dumb bullshit.

 

Fuck. I specifically said, maybe you’d rather be Swedish or something but shit- in the genetic lotto you hit the jackpot. Don’t be fucking obtuse. 

[Incredulity 11,861]

16 minutes ago, TornACL said:

If anyone took any fucking accountability in this country, a positive test case could, ya know, immediately contact at least some of the high traffic places he visited over the past 10 days. 

 

So is the standard, "at least some" or everyone and everywhere?

[Brisketexan 106,641]

1 minute ago, StruggleBus said:

File this under "no shit, brisket"

What are you even arguing here? 

See the post I responded to, which accused me of parroting "CCP propaganda."

[atomheartbevo 90,550]

1 hour ago, gmr548 said:

You wouldn't expect secsecsec to be at the bottom with actual developing nation numbers?

Having lived in a few of those states as a kid, trailer parks no less (we moved a lot, dad was in O&G), yeah, they are absolutely nothing to write home about.   I used to be embarrassed about being poor as a kid - first house we had that didn’t have wheels on it wasn’t until I was almost finished with elementary school.  Now I’m thankful, as it has given me an appreciation and perspective that way too many friends and family members don’t have.  

I wonder how some of those places did with covid (although it did see where we lived in Louisiana had a blow up), but then again, most of them were hopefully able to get their folks to larger cities since the distances weren’t so bad.

[Poe It Up 126]

America is the best and there’s not a close second, so shut the hell up you ungrateful fucks.  
 

[gmr548 16,681]

Fuck. I specifically said, maybe you’d rather be Swedish or something but shit- in the genetic lotto you hit the jackpot. Don’t be fucking obtuse. 

Do you actually think there’s better out there?

Yeah, I'm being obtuse.

I'm sorry to all for my hand in threadjacking. I'm done here.

[EE2B 1,569]

Uh, Tim Horton of Tim Horton's restaurant in Hamilton, Ontario.  Probably the best restaurant in North America.  

[Hank_Hill 19,786]

12 minutes ago, Poe It Up said:

America is the best and there’s not a close second, so shut the hell up you ungrateful fucks.  
 

I mean it’s objectively not, but I like it here.

[dcar00 14,907]

1 hour ago, The Dog said:

Most of us are just gainfully employed slackers.

thats where the 6000 lawyers come in.  you are double counting like Wuhan virus deaths.

[dcar00 14,907]

28 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

Hyperbole much? Jesus.

No one anywhere has said that America isn't a great place to live and be born in.

you should feel right at home, we are barely top 25 apparently.  come to think of it, we could put that on the wall...

[workswithseed 2,201]

56 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Are you clinically insane?  A country that borders ours -- with a much lower number of cases -- doesn't want people from the adjoining country with a much higher number of cases coming in and infecting them.  Note that Canada also has similar restrictions as to other high-infection countries (yep, including China).

That's all he can do.  America is not a hazard to Canada at all....because China.  It's a fascinating intellectual exercise to watch.

Not too many moving to Canada. What reason is there?

[Coelenterate Fuccboi 13,387]

18 minutes ago, Poe It Up said:

America is the best and there’s not a close second, so shut the hell up you ungrateful fucks.  
 

You forget how many on here hate our country.

[dcar00 14,907]

2 hours ago, Lobo said:

Uh, Tim Horton of Tim Horton's restaurant in Hamilton, Ontario.  Probably the best restaurant in North America.  

Anyway, back to 'Murica.  I am glad I live here, but I don't take any special pride in the fact that I was born here.  I had nothing to do with it, so it seems like a weird thing to lead with as a personality trait.  I'm also 6'1" and ambidextrous, two qualities I had nothing to do with (maybe a little bit, I quit smoking when I was 7 because I felt it was stunting my growth).  Now, I am very thankful that I was born in the United States in 1976, and not 150 years earlier.  I am very thankful I am tall and can use both hands equally to pleasure South Austin's mom, but again it's not pride.  There is a very stark difference to me between being thankful and being proud.  You can be thankful for things you had nothing to do with.  And you can be thankful for things you had everything to do with (like the will power to lose weight or learn a language).  You can be proud for things you had everything to do with (fitting into a smaller clothing size or showing off your new Italian conversation skills).  But being proud for things you had nothing to do with (the sunrise, the city of your birth, the DJIA closing figures, what language you heard at home as an infant, or the rainfall in Austin yesterday).....I understand why people do it but it has never made any sense to me. 

Pride is a sin, Thankfullness is a virtue.  This nation would do well to remember that.  

are you going to let  kevin bacon throw a prom where they can dance?

Edited May 13, 2020 by dcar00

[Brisketexan 106,641]

1 minute ago, workswithseed said:

Not too many moving to Canada. What reason is there?

Because Canada has pretty tight immigration controls?  That's usually the primary reason for not many people moving someplace relatively nice.  

[JBJ 3,780]

28 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

So is the standard, "at least some" or everyone and everywhere?

It's not the latter.

[dcar00 14,907]

1 minute ago, Casual Encounter said:

You forget how many on here hate our country.

as I understand it we had a decent 8 year run then it all went to hell.  kind of like prime FUPM.  Glory days..they'll pass you by.

[Scary Stranger 1,723]

3 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Because Canada has pretty tight immigration controls?  That's usually the primary reason for not many people moving someplace relatively nice.  

But, I was told that this was extremely racist and wrong.

[Brisketexan 106,641]

4 minutes ago, Casual Encounter said:

You forget how many on here hate our country.

Or, we feel about our country the way that we felt about our beloved Longhorns during the McWilliams and Mackovick years.  Hating getting our asses kicked 66-3, and not understanding how people bristle at any criticism of coaching and gametime decisions, doesn't mean hating our team. In fact, it's the exact opposite.  This is our home, it's where we're from, it's where our descendants may live out their lives.  We'd like it to be improving, not declining.  We'd like the dominant social attitude to be one that values your fellow citizens and their well-being as opposed to just "ME MY MINE," because that will help us be a happier, healthier country.  Silly us.

[workswithseed 2,201]

2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Because Canada has pretty tight immigration controls?  That's usually the primary reason for not many people moving someplace relatively nice. 

Then why is it America always called the racist one?

[Brisketexan 106,641]

6 minutes ago, Scary Stranger said:

But, I was told that this was extremely racist and wrong.

Quote

Then why is it America always called the racist one?

Did I say that I approved of that particular Canadian policy in its entirety?  And let's use actual numbers -- our net immigration rate in the US is 3.8 per 1000 population.  Canada is nearly twice that, at 6.4-6.5 during the same period.  So, "nobody is moving to Canada" is, like, not even true.

So, Canada has a more open immigration policy than we do.  Has a greater life expectancy.  Has a happier population.

I mean, I'll concede that their native grub isn't worldclass, so it's not a PARADISE, but I would be perfectly happy living out the rest of my days in Canada.

Edited May 13, 2020 by Brisketexan

[atomheartbevo 90,550]

2 hours ago, Incredulity said:

Well maybe if you have 1, or a half dozen points to look at....

But thousands of restaurants with dozens of customers each night for two weeks.  It's data so massive maybe the NSA could process it.  No way the county health board, with newly on-boarded "contact tracers" is capable.

Well, if we don’t figure it out, enjoy the shutdown in the fall when it hits again.   And don’t bitch when we lose more businesses and more jobs.

 I’m not going to repeat everything ChiTownDoc said on the matter, but he or somebody else linked to a few stories about, and it’s not as massive as you think.  South Korea and others have done it successfully, and been able to mostly get back to normal.

The data is not insurmountable - 15-20 years ago, I worked at a large tech company building large servers/databases/etc. for other large companies, such as point-of-sales stuff for large grocery chains, and the amount of data we were handling was much more comprehensive than a contact-tracing app.   Facebook, Google, etc. store an insane amount of data as well.

KISS theory (Keep It Simple Stupid):  You have an app on your phone. You are assigned an ID number.  You go to a restaurant that’s been assigned an ID number in a database, and the app registers that you were there at such-and-such time.  Somebody tests positive, it’s flagged in the app, and the database pulls the ID #’s of the stores or whatever from where they went over the past week or two, and the times they were at those locations.  It sends out a ping to all the ID #’s of those who were at those locations around those times.  You get an alert saying you may have been exposed, and to please quarantine yourself for two weeks.

It doesn’t have to have your name and contact info in a database if the app can send you a message on your phone.  Quite a bit of the info in the database can be handled anonymously.    Current cities are asking for names and contact info because they don’t have an app to do it automatically.

It will drive hypochondriacs crazy of course.

But the point is, we can try this in an effort to keep our economy going, or we can do another shutdown like we just experienced.