CR: COVID-19 --Political Talk

[Bullneck 18987]

43 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

And that was not as much a function of the competence of the CDC but rather a function of the contagiousness and transmission properties of Ebola. 

But 11,000 in Africa.  Is it possible the CDC isn't as bad as you think?

[TwiceHorn 31276]

9 minutes ago, Grade of D as in David said:

Probably a good idea to just go ahead and cut some of them.

 

I didn't say that, either.

But there's this Trump-provoked notion that government was just fine until he came along and fucked it up.  Well, he did fuck it up, but it wasn't just fine, either.  One can be realistic about the limitations of government without wanting to burn it all down.

[cactusflinthead 27594]

14 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

No one is absolving Trump of anything by observing that CDC and FDA did standard, administration-independent gubmint fuckups.

Indeed, the dumbass, slow-roll emergency use authorization provisions of the FDA that clogged things up were enacted during the Obama administration.

It's real popular around here to trash Trump for observing that government kind of sucks.  That Trump sucks and makes it worse does not belie that fundamental truth.

This is only partially true.

The agencies actually do, in fact, suck.  The leaders don't help.  The agencies probably suck a little worse now.

Do you trust your local county agent?

How about the health inspector?

Are there fuck ups in government?

Is It worse than bidness? 

Yes, yes,yes, no.

Remember we have health inspection because business doesn't give a shit about your health. 

[cactusflinthead 27594]

3 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I didn't say that, either.

But there's this Trump-provoked notion that government was just fine until he came along and fucked it up.  Well, he did fuck it up, but it wasn't just fine, either.  One can be realistic about the limitations of government without wanting to burn it all down.

Nah, we're going to have to go back to Reagan for it getting gutted. 

 

I got a damn flashback from him this week. 

"Reagan said trees cause more pollution than cars."

Damn the drunkest librarian. I guess I needed a reminder how long there has been a coordinated attack on good government. 

Edited April 26, 2020 by cactusflinthead

[Anastasis 23395]

7 minutes ago, Bullneck said:

Anna, you're the smartest guy in the room.  You have an answer for everything.

Doesn’t take much effort To differentiate from this crowd. 

[TwiceHorn 31276]

11 minutes ago, cactusflinthead said:

Do you trust your local county agent?

How about the health inspector?

Are there fuck ups in government?

Is It worse than bidness? 

Yes, yes,yes, no.

Remember we have health inspection because business doesn't give a shit about your health. 

Not once have I advocated for abolishing the FDA or the CDC.  The FDA is a very necessary and also very problematic agency and could probably stand a top-down revamping.  It is more responsible for out-of-control drug prices than the patent system, for example.

I know less about the CDC, but it's a government agency, so a certain level of bureaucratic incompetence can be expected.

There's a difference between advocating for abolishing government and improving it, reducing bureaucracy and institutional stupidity, where possible.

This is why we need a decent conservative party.

Edited April 26, 2020 by TwiceHorn

[pyrohornIII 4809]

 

3 hours ago, Anastasis said:

If you are advocating for a SK style tracing program, you are basically advocating for the CDC under the Trump administration to have access to all of your GPS localizing data, credit card and other financial records, police records, CCTV feeds from every major city, in essentially real time. Can you imagine the reaction if Trump would have proposed something like that in January?

1)  Take this seriously and convey said attitude to the country.

2)  Restrict travel in and out of the country.

3)  Push for social distancing, seriously, as well as SiP and facemasks.

4)  Begin a competent testing program, for Covid and antibodies.

5)  Begin a tracing program that would then use some (maybe all) of the things you list.  

Trump and his administration did ONE of these things, and did that half assed.   Just doing those first 4 would have made a big difference.  But even today he's still out there predicting this miraculous cure.

Your initial response was to take the worst part of what SK did/is doing, liberties wise, and made it seem like their only play.  The hell with all the other things they did.  To me this just came across as a big smokescreen to absolve Trump of not doing more.  

 

17 minutes ago, Grade of D as in David said:

Probably a good idea to just go ahead and cut some of them.

 

I can think of someone I'd like to cut.  

[workswithseed 2036]

16 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I didn't say that, either.

But there's this Trump-provoked notion that government was just fine until he came along and fucked it up.  Well, he did fuck it up, but it wasn't just fine, either.  One can be realistic about the limitations of government without wanting to burn it all down.

Can 3 years mess up many years of in placed bureaucracy?

Edited April 26, 2020 by workswithseed

[Biff Tannen 45495]

1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

Well, no, the FDA and CDC fuckups were good ol standard gubmint fuckups:  bureaucracy, red tape, and horseshit.  

The complete lack of recovery from the fuckups was a Trump special.

And let’s not forget the complete dismantling of the entire system that was already in place to combat this exact scenario. 

[Bullneck 18987]

13 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Doesn’t take much effort To differentiate from this crowd. 

So, smart and a lot of free time to post on message boards.  You must be a billionaire.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

It like we have a stooge puppet that does the work of our enemies for them without even realizing it because he’s such a NPD imbecile.

[Bullneck 18987]

5 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

Can 3 years mess up many years of in placed bureaucracy?

Short answer: yes, as the events of 2020 have proven.

A question: What does the word "bureaucracy" mean to you?

[pyrohornIII 4809]

I got an unsolicited text from Kevin Brady yesterday to take a poll:

It led to this poll consisting of only 1 question:

I'd like to see how some of you would answer it.

 

 

 

And if you actually would like to answer it...  here's the link   Brady Poll

I figure if wants my unsolicited opinion, he won't mind me sharing the poll link around for more opinions.

[TwiceHorn 31276]

9 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

Can 3 years mess up many years of in placed bureaucracy?

Hopefully, we find out soon.

Trump hasn't done anything, as far as I can tell, to productively improve federal agencies.  He's just appointed assclowns and fired a lot of people, mostly on the basis of some kind of loyalty test.  He's cut back regulations, but not in a measured way, just a highly political and crass way (blatantly favoring his donor constituency, as opposed to the people or even the trumpkin voters).

In some cases, quality career civil servants have left because of him, his assclowns, and his policies.  Some, like the Department of State, have undoubtedly been hurt.  Some, like the Department of Justice, won't be permanently damaged as they are highly political to begin with, both from the appointment standpoint and high turnover between government, politics, and private practice.

More technical and less political agencies like FDA and CDC, it remains to be seen.

Edited April 26, 2020 by TwiceHorn

[ChiTownDoc 21101]

This was going to be really bad no matter what, and it was/is a lot worse because of Trump.  I don't see how everyone sane can't agree on that. 

[Anastasis 23395]

9 minutes ago, Bullneck said:

So, smart and a lot of free time to post on message boards.  You must be a billionaire.

Just when you thought peak CR stupidity had been achieved Bullneck comes over the top. 

[Bama Chick 28596]

Can 3 years mess up many years of in placed bureaucracy?

Well, was this kind of mafia shit normal before the current administration?

[Bullneck 18987]

7 minutes ago, Bama Chick said:

 

Well, was this kind of mafia shit normal before the current administration?

 

 

 

 

 

"Those are our masks."  Jared

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/04/hospitals-face-a-white-house-blockade-for-coronavirus-ppe.html

Quote

The White House Has Erected a Blockade Stopping States and Hospitals From Getting Coronavirus PPE

 

Edited April 26, 2020 by Bullneck

[Bama Chick 28596]

This is disgusting and disgraceful.

[ChiTownDoc 21101]

1 minute ago, Bama Chick said:

This is disgusting and disgraceful.

 

So...right on brand.  

[cactusflinthead 27594]

28 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Not once have I advocated for abolishing the FDA or the CDC.  The FDA is a very necessary and also very problematic agency and could probably stand a top-down revamping.  It is more responsible for out-of-control drug prices than the patent system, for example.

I know less about the CDC, but it's a government agency, so a certain level of bureaucratic incompetence can be expected.

There's a difference between advocating for abolishing government and improving it, reducing bureaucracy and institutional stupidity, where possible.

This is why we need a decent conservative party.

Why is it strictly the purview of the conservatives to eliminate waste and redundancy? Seems like I remember a few calls from the left about waste. It is not about saving money. It's about whose ox gets gored. Take a gander at how much we spend on our inspectors. They don't make shit. That poor kid that could have shut my ass down for verboten palm trees didn't know what he was looking at. He walked right by. And yet we still get a crop every year of do gooders that want to make a difference. I should have italicized it. 

Trump has run off anyone that has some kind of purpose besides kissing his ass. He's the final stage of dumbing down. Birx could feel her soul slipping away. Thanks a lot conservatives.

[Bullneck 18987]

22 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Just when you thought peak CR stupidity had been achieved Bullneck comes over the top. 

So you're not a billionaire?  Shit, all that intelligence you have went to waste.  

But you're smarter than me, so you got that going for you.  Which is nice.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

 

[elfenix 34171]

8 hours ago, Biff Tannen said:

Fuck that, I’m going to listen to that wrasslin guy. 

 

[Anastasis 23395]

11 minutes ago, Bullneck said:

So you're not a billionaire?  Shit, all that intelligence you have went to waste.  

But you're smarter than me, so you got that going for you.  Which is nice.

Pretty low bar. But self awareness is a rare trait these days, so cheers to you.  

[F250 28686]

48 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

Can 3 years mess up many years of in placed bureaucracy?

Yes, considering the bureaucracy is subject to political leadership the POTUS can quickly cause a breakdown in bureaucratic rationalization. Bama Chick just provided an example of that breakdown. We have also seen a decline in bureaucratic maturity under Trump not normally seen with previous Presidents. Political appointees as agency heads isn't unusual but what has been unusual is the political interference further down into the layers of bureaucracy where Subject Matter Experts should rule.

With that said, I tend to agree with Anastasis and TwiceHorn regarding bureaucratic failures.

From a Weberian perspective, it is very possible for Trump to fuck up federal agencies and separately federal agencies trapped by the Weberian "iron cage" create their own fuck ups.

 

 

[rantanamo 143]

2 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

No one is absolving Trump of anything by observing that CDC and FDA did standard, administration-independent gubmint fuckups.

Indeed, the dumbass, slow-roll emergency use authorization provisions of the FDA that clogged things up were enacted during the Obama administration.

It's real popular around here to trash Trump for observing that government kind of sucks.  That Trump sucks and makes it worse does not belie that fundamental truth.

This is only partially true.

The agencies actually do, in fact, suck.  The leaders don't help.  The agencies probably suck a little worse now.

stop the deflection.  

[WhatTheBuck 28711]

It's Trump's FDA and Trump's CDC. 

Unitary Executive Theory over on the Right should've told ya. 

[Bama Chick 28596]

This sounds like a fun way to pass the time.

[Wanker Bob 379]

Of course the FDA and CDC were fucked up by decades of bad and corrupt politicians, but they still served a basic purpose and in emergencies mostly came through. Now that they're headed by stooges of the dumbest politician on the globe they're completely ineffectual. 

Corruption and ineptitude didn't start with Trump but he's taken both to such a ridiculous level that we can't even properly coordinate a proper national response to an attack that is killing over 50k Americans in a little over a month and will end up killing hundreds of thousands if not millions. That is only refraining from wiping out our health care system because we shut every avenue for entertainment and gathering in the entire country completely down. 

So no it didn't start with Trump just like the demolition of a building doesn't start with the detonation. 

[washparkhorn 9935]

6 hours ago, Anastasis said:

If you are advocating for a SK style tracing program, you are basically advocating for the CDC under the Trump administration to have access to all of your GPS localizing data, credit card and other financial records, police records, CCTV feeds from every major city, in essentially real time. Can you imagine the reaction if Trump would have proposed something like that in January?

Doesn't he already have access to that information?

Under the National Emergencies Act - he is one declaration away from accessing it.

Another fine Act from Congress to build the Imperial Presidency. 

[justhookit 4180]

On 4/23/2020 at 5:19 PM, 4th&Five said:

 

I’m about 2 days behind here, but this is the most bizarre thing I’ve seen/read, and there’s been a lot.This dude doesn’t have the intelligence or competence to run my next door neighbors backyard chicken farm. JFC.

[justhookit 4180]

Ok a few minutes of googling. This is the Lysol thing? What in the ever loving fuck? My methhead chicken farming neighbor would have a more intelligent idea. I understand what board I am posting on and I am pretty sure my last 2 posts are the only ones I’ve ever made here. I won’t post much if any more here, and I won’t fit in, because politics, and I don’t want to , neg away. But I think we can all agree that Trump is the least intelligent motherfucker inside any given Walmart.

[elfenix 34171]

43 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

Doesn't he already have access to that information?

 

most of it's available from god knows how many data brokers already.

[Bama Chick 28596]

How anyone can question whether Trump could cause harm to the bureaucracies at this point is mind boggling.  
He made the National Weather Service issue false reports on where a hurricane was going to land to try to cover for something dumb he said.  
He made the FDA and CDC release guidance promoting hydroxychloroquine for a month to try to cover for something dumb he said, until the evidence it was killing people became too large to ignore.  
He made the DOJ issue a false summary of the Mueller Report to try to cover for how damaging it was.
He made the State Department extort Ukraine to try to smear Biden.
He has fired countless people who were qualified for their jobs simply because they weren’t toady bootlickers, and replaced them with incompetent yes men.   And not just in the usual political appointee positions.  The scientists working on vaccines for COVID-19 don’t even escape the purity test if they dare (correctly) question Dear Leader’s latest lunatic medical misinformation. 
Look, I agree the bureaucracies are often slow moving and poor performers regardless, with the faulty test kit fiasco being  a prime example.   But we should try to improve them instead of saying burn it all down and grift what you can in the chaos, which is the new GOP ethos.
And whether or not the bureaucracies were ineffective before Trump, he’s undoubtedly made them much worse - to a cartoonishly comical degree.  This is like questioning if Nero could really let Rome burn.  Um, yes!  Have you looked outside?

And you left out the best ones!

[DigglerontheHoof 21062]

6 hours ago, Anastasis said:

Pretty low bar. But self awareness is a rare trait these days, so cheers to you.  

Yes, you should give it a shot. 

[Mrs Whiggins 13049]

8 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

 

Added to the rep on your post. Rep all around. This was awesome. I hope the folks at NIH got a kick out of that.

And as much as I like and respect Dr. Fauci, I didn't send him a graphic email. That would be weird.

[WhatTheBuck 28711]

5 hours ago, longhornmatt said:

How anyone can question whether Trump could cause harm to the bureaucracies at this point is mind boggling.  

He made the National Weather Service issue false reports on where a hurricane was going to land to try to cover for something dumb he said.  

He made the FDA and CDC release guidance promoting hydroxychloroquine for a month to try to cover for something dumb he said, until the evidence it was killing people became too large to ignore.  

He made the DOJ issue a false summary of the Mueller Report to try to cover for how damaging it was.

He made the State Department extort Ukraine to try to smear Biden.

He has fired countless people who were qualified for their jobs simply because they weren’t toady bootlickers, and replaced them with incompetent yes men.   And not just in the usual political appointee positions.  The scientists working on vaccines for COVID-19 don’t even escape the purity test if they dare (correctly) question Dear Leader’s latest lunatic medical misinformation. 

Look, I agree the bureaucracies are often slow moving and poor performers regardless, with the faulty test kit fiasco being  a prime example.   But we should try to improve them instead of saying burn it all down and grift what you can in the chaos, which is the new GOP ethos.

And whether or not the bureaucracies were ineffective before Trump, he’s undoubtedly made them much worse - to a cartoonishly comical degree.  This is like questioning if Nero could really let Rome burn.  Um, yes!  Have you looked outside?

Trump came in with Steve Bannon explicitly stating that their goal was the "deconstruction of the administrative state." From the beginning he set about dismantling the apparatus of our civil service. He ignored advice from the previous administration. He threw out Chris Christie's transition plan. He purged agencies like the CDC of professional expertise. Do we need to revisit the Vanity Fair article about the ineptitude of the transition within the Dept. of Energy?

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/07/department-of-energy-risks-michael-lewis

The fish rots from the head. The blame starts at the top and none of this gets fixed until Trump is removed from office. You can deflect attention from his incompetence by pointing out that mistakes were made by others. Well, Trump is still making mistakes and fucking up his job daily even now, months into the crisis. Pointing fingers elsewhere is just noise, just a distraction. 

[DixonHur 11217]

[HenryJames 65890]

5 hours ago, longhornmatt said:

How anyone can question whether Trump could cause harm to the bureaucracies at this point is mind boggling.  

He made the National Weather Service issue false reports on where a hurricane was going to land to try to cover for something dumb he said.  

He made the FDA and CDC release guidance promoting hydroxychloroquine for a month to try to cover for something dumb he said, until the evidence it was killing people became too large to ignore.  

He made the DOJ issue a false summary of the Mueller Report to try to cover for how damaging it was.

He made the State Department extort Ukraine to try to smear Biden.

He has fired countless people who were qualified for their jobs simply because they weren’t toady bootlickers, and replaced them with incompetent yes men.   And not just in the usual political appointee positions.  The scientists working on vaccines for COVID-19 don’t even escape the purity test if they dare (correctly) question Dear Leader’s latest lunatic medical misinformation. 

Look, I agree the bureaucracies are often slow moving and poor performers regardless, with the faulty test kit fiasco being  a prime example.   But we should try to improve them instead of saying burn it all down and grift what you can in the chaos, which is the new GOP ethos.

And whether or not the bureaucracies were ineffective before Trump, he’s undoubtedly made them much worse - to a cartoonishly comical degree.  This is like questioning if Nero could really let Rome burn.  Um, yes!  Have you looked outside?

[Anastasis 23395]

9 hours ago, pyrohornIII said:

 

1)  Take this seriously and convey said attitude to the country.

2)  Restrict travel in and out of the country.

3)  Push for social distancing, seriously, as well as SiP and facemasks.

4)  Begin a competent testing program, for Covid and antibodies.

5)  Begin a tracing program that would then use some (maybe all) of the things you list.  

Trump and his administration did ONE of these things, and did that half assed.   Just doing those first 4 would have made a big difference.  But even today he's still out there predicting this miraculous cure.

 

I agree with all of this. I agree that Trump fucked up by being dismissive of the threat, I think that we should been quicker to drop the travel restrictions, and taken a different approach with testing ramp up.  We were weeks behind in our response, and most of that goes back to #1. 

9 hours ago, pyrohornIII said:

Your initial response was to take the worst part of what SK did/is doing, liberties wise, and made it seem like their only play.  The hell with all the other things they did.  To me this just came across as a big smokescreen to absolve Trump of not doing more.  

I've talked plenty about SK test development, test roll out, culture of mask wearing, geographic size, population density and other aspects on both this thread and the other one. There is a lot of content on both, so I can understand if you missed them.  I have pointed out things that we can and should learn from SK's response, but there are also some reasons why certain aspects of their response are not so simply transferred to the United States. 

In this case, I was responding to a poster who said that "I mean you don't have to reinvent the wheel here. South Korea has already shown exactly how to do it in a democratic society." So yes, my response focuses on one of the pivotal parts of SK's response and the aspects of their system that are generally incompatible with most people's vision of American democracy. Of course, the immediate response here is "new trumpkin talking points!" and you interpret it as a "smokescreen to absolve trump". And you guys wonder why they try to keep a lid on the CR shit in the other thread?

[GW Hayduke 1952]

Facebook and a whole host of other tech firms have been harvesting our data for years but it is our vision of American Democracy keeping us from adequately responding to a pandemic. 

If we blame American Democracy along with government bureaucracy, we can water down the blame to our leadership and pretend that proper leadership would not have addressed those two supposed barriers

Edited April 26, 2020 by GW Hayduke

[Anastasis 23395]

6 hours ago, elfenix said:

most of it's available from god knows how many data brokers already.

You have a point, of course. Now, integration of all of those feeds in real time as required for tracing?

[Anastasis 23395]

1 minute ago, GW Hayduke said:

Facebook and a whole host of other tech firms that have been harvesting our data for years but it is our vision of American Democracy keeping us from adequately responding to a pandemic. 

So you support the government building a SK-style tracing system?  You want all of your financial, GPS, communication data, medical records, and anything else they might find useful tracked in real time by people at the CDC?

[Biff Tannen 45495]

41 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Do we need to revisit the Vanity Fair article about the ineptitude of the transition within the Dept. of Energy?

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/07/department-of-energy-risks-michael-lewis

Yes we do. This should be required reading for all high school students, if we decide to start teaching them government and civics again (big IF), as well as citizens in general. 

[GW Hayduke 1952]

1 minute ago, Anastasis said:

So you support the government building a SK-style tracing system?  You want all of your financial, GPS, communication data, medical records, and anything else they might find useful tracked in real time by people at the CDC?

Easily. I would very much rather it be the government than Facebook.

They won’t need financial data. Stop fear mongering. Medical data would be limited (positive to a test, negative, antibodies).

GPS data would likely be stored directly on your device and purged after a set time period.

Fear mongering is lame.

insert pic of trumpkin zombies

[Pam Cummings 9581]

7 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

So you support the government building a SK-style tracing system?  You want all of your financial, GPS, communication data, medical records, and anything else they might find useful tracked in real time by people at the CDC?

If government bureaucracies are so incompetent, why would you worry about it?

Isn't most or all of that data already mined and sold to the highest bidder?

[GRHorn 105]

 

[Anastasis 23395]

1 minute ago, GW Hayduke said:

Easily. I would very much rather it be the government than Facebook.

They won’t need financial data. Stop fear mongering. Medical data would be limited (positive to a test, negative, antibodies).

GPS data would likely be stored directly on your device and purged after a set time period.

 

These statements are not accurate representations of how the SK tracing system works. 

[Biff Tannen 45495]

2 minutes ago, GRHorn said:

 

That article is nuts. Who has been shaming people for going outside?  I’ve walked my dogs every day this shit show has been going on. People are everywhere. Have some people really not left their homes?

I guess maybe in a massive city like NYC it’s different, just based on density, but the author mentions multiple places.