CR: COVID-19 --Political Talk

[Brisketexan 105,383]

3 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Stop being such a whiney doucher Bozo. It's really an unfortunate look you've taken on moreso recently.

"We" would be the local government entities that are providing guidance to local businesses under their jurisdiction. 

Ahh, yes, the "patchwork approach with little consistency, to solve a problem that has zero regard for local govt boundaries" approach.  That seems just destined for roaring success.

 

[FondrenRoad 4,378]

2 hours ago, Anastasis said:

These data don't really tell us anything about the impact of re-opening, but they do suggest that we shouldn't be doing it. 

It is probably even worse than it looks in that graph. NY/NJ has been testing as much as possible while much of the rest of the nation has not been testing at the same rate, and some of the nation has been trying to pretend that the virus doesn't exist if you don't test for it. 

Total deaths compared to the year prior will paint a clearer picture when the numbers come out for states that are trying to sweep infection transparency under the rug. 

Edited May 4, 2020 by FondrenRoad

[Horn Under a Bad Sign 20,496]

We. Are. So. Fucked.

 

 

[Anastasis 23,487]

3 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Ahh, yes, the "patchwork approach with little consistency, to solve a problem that has zero regard for local govt boundaries" approach.  That seems just destined for roaring success.

Not sure exactly what you think you are arguing against, but I mention "local government" specifically in my response. 

You guys should really stop knee jerk strawmanning  to everything.

[Captainant 27,796]

1 minute ago, Anastasis said:

Not sure exactly what you think you are arguing against, but I mention "local government" specifically in my response. 

You guys should really stop knee jerk strawmanning  to everything.

You realize that local control is being tested by state government right now, right? Abbot doesn't give a fuck what mayors and city managers want, he's attempting to end-around local control. 

[DixonHur 11,389]

10 minutes ago, Horn Under a Bad Sign said:

We. Are. So. Fucked.

 

 

Call me old-fashioned, but that seem like a bit of an overreaction 

Based on what's been happening in MI, I'm guessing white shooter, POC victim  

Edited May 4, 2020 by DixonHur

[RomaVicta 30,027]

14 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Not even a plague could bring this country together.  Nope, we have the pro-plague people protesting in the streets against the anti-plague scientists that want them not to die.  

Wow.

That's a truly sorry, sad state of affairs. 

At least we got rid of the most divisive president in history. Prescient projection.

[Anastasis 23,487]

2 minutes ago, Captainant said:

You realize that local control is being tested by state government right now, right? Abbot doesn't give a fuck what mayors and city managers want, he's attempting to end-around local control. 

Yes, and I think that the governor unilaterally pre-empting the counties decision making is not appropriate and should be challenged in court. I recall it being discussed on another thread but just skimmed the legal back and forths.  

[Brisketexan 105,383]

5 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Not sure exactly what you think you are arguing against, but I mention "local government" specifically in my response. 

You guys should really stop knee jerk strawmanning  to everything.

Ummm, we realized that's exactly what you mentioned.  It's like having a mosquito control problem that is solely the responsibility of individual property owners.  I do a GREAT job getting rid of standing water and such -- I shouldn't have any fear of mosquito-borne illness!  Except my neighbor has a back yard full of used tires and old buckets.  And skeeters don't give a shit about the fence between our properties.

A communicable disease is not a "local" problem, so a "local-only" approach is doomed to fail.  That's our point.  But go on with your burned down, libertarian paradise, where the town/neighbor next door is free to completely undo any good work we are doing locally, making it all pointless.

[RomaVicta 30,027]

I don't mean to be Rodney King or anything, but I read Anastasis' post as an observation not an advocation. 

Perhaps I'm wrong, but it seems a shame that his post triggered name calling back and forth. You're all smarter guys than that.

Or I'm too dumb to see what's actually going on, a distinct possibility.

[Anastasis 23,487]

Just now, Brisketexan said:

Ummm, we realized that's exactly what you mentioned.  It's like having a mosquito control problem that is solely the responsibility of individual property owners.  I do a GREAT job getting rid of standing water and such -- I shouldn't have any fear of mosquito-borne illness!  Except my neighbor has a back yard full of used tires and old buckets.  And skeeters don't give a shit about the fence between our properties.

A communicable disease is not a "local" problem, so a "local-only" approach is doomed to fail.  That's our point.  But go on with your burned down, libertarian paradise, where the town/neighbor next door is free to completely undo any good work we are doing locally, making it all pointless.

I think that it works both ways brisket.  The appropriate solution for NY state or NY city, today, will not necessarily be the appropriate solution today for Texas, or Austin, or Kerrville. You need flexibility and local decision making engaged in the process.  I do think that a federal framework is applicable to a pandemic response. Each state has different healthcare capacity, demographics, risk factors, challenges and strengths.  In a state as big as Texas, there are going to be intrastate regional variations as well. I know how much you love the idea of an authoritarian federal government and all, but an authoritarian top down approach is not ideal nor even tenable.

[Anastasis 23,487]

31 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

It is probably even worse than it looks in that graph. NY/NJ has been testing as much as possible while much of the rest of the nation has not been testing at the same rate, and some of the nation has been trying to pretend that the virus doesn't exist if you don't test for it. 

Total deaths compared to the year prior will paint a clearer picture when the numbers come out for states that are trying to sweep infection transparency under the rug. 

This is all true.  My point regarding that graph, which needs some help anyways (axis labels anyone?), is that it doesn't support the claim that was being attached to it.  We won't really know the impact of the re-opening for some time due to the lag in new onset, and to your point, really the further lag in death.  So we are 3-4 weeks out from actually have a firm grasp of the impact. 

My point about re-opening was that we need local data, specifically local new case counts, to drive that decision.  That graph peels out NY and NJ, showing an upward trajectory, which "suggests" to me that we shouldn't be doing it.  But it's really inconclusive since we need more localized data to inform those decisions. Based on what I see in the Travis county numbers, I don't think we are there yet myself.  I'd like to see some big consecutive down days in new cases before we go there. 

Edited May 4, 2020 by Anastasis

[Biff Tannen 45,745]

30 minutes ago, Horn Under a Bad Sign said:

We. Are. So. Fucked.

 

 

Link

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/michigan/2020/05/03/police-flint-guard-shooting-mask-family-dollar/3075515001/

[DigglerontheHoof 21,254]

Toilet Paper hording and murders over protective masks.  What a country. 

[Grade of D as in David 13,253]

3 minutes ago, DigglerontheHoof said:

Toilet Paper hording and murders over protective masks.  What a country. 

[Francisco 2.0 32,430]

6 minutes ago, DigglerontheHoof said:

Toilet Paper hording and murders over protective masks.  What a country. 

Season 4 of The Trump Administration is just full of plot twists and entertainment.  

When Season 1 came out, no one could have envisioned what the series could devolve into.

Edited May 4, 2020 by Francisco 2.0

[Aqua Buddha 14,621]

43 minutes ago, Horn Under a Bad Sign said:

We. Are. So. Fucked.

 

 

Very fine people.

[Wanker Bob 379]

6 hours ago, Lobo said:

 

Back to politics....Trump this morning is already walking back some his numbers from his interview at Lincoln Memorial.  At least he's up and LYING

 

 

[4th&Five 41,591]

meanwhile...

 

[Brisketexan 105,383]

28 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

I think that it works both ways brisket.  The appropriate solution for NY state or NY city, today, will not necessarily be the appropriate solution today for Texas, or Austin, or Kerrville. You need flexibility and local decision making engaged in the process.  I do think that a federal framework is applicable to a pandemic response. Each state has different healthcare capacity, demographics, risk factors, challenges and strengths.  In a state as big as Texas, there are going to be intrastate regional variations as well. I know how much you love the idea of an authoritarian federal government and all, but an authoritarian top down approach is not ideal nor even tenable.

"I do think that a federal framework is applicable to a pandemic response."  Problem: we functionally don't have a federal approach.  The feds are largely MIA.  Quit arguing the fucking extreme -- we don't need an authoritarian federal government....we need SOME federal government, ANY federal government.  

For fuck's sake, even to the extent that the feds discuss general guidelines and trigger points, many of the state and local governments aren't following them for shit.  We have clean yards here, and disposed tires in the very next lot, all over the goddamned country.  This isn't an issue of "mosquito control measures need to be different in Phoenix compared to Baton Rouge" -- it's an issue of needing consistently applied and enforced measures in all areas of similar habitats.  We don't have that.  We have a non-functional federal government at a time when federal leadership and even enforcement is needed.

[Wanker Bob 379]

3 hours ago, Patrick Bateman said:

Correct. If you look at the top 15 states in cases confirmed, only one has a fatality rate of under 3 -- Texas at 2.7%. Next highest?  Florida, who has been beset by allegations of fudging numbers and not ignoring data.  They're at 3.8%!  Texas is also only putting out numbers from one place and aren't allowing county or city ME departments to put out their own numbers.  There should be a ton of scrutiny how some of these states are collecting and classifying data and it should start with states like Florida, Tennessee, and absolutely Texas.

Why we're definitely well over 100k deaths from this at this moment. 

republicans can't keep from lying about their own people dying 

[DigDug 1,672]

56 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

Call me old-fashioned, but that seem like a bit of an overreaction 

Based on what's been happening in MI, I'm guessing white shooter, POC victim  

Nope

 

[Anastasis 23,487]

5 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

"I do think that a federal framework is applicable to a pandemic response."  Problem: we functionally don't have a federal approach.  The feds are largely MIA.  Quit arguing the fucking extreme -- we don't need an authoritarian federal government....we need SOME federal government, ANY federal government.  

You are the one throwing around hyperlocalized examples about mosquito control in your backyard to dismiss the appropriate role for local decision making during this response, and you are telling me not to argue extremes when I suggest that there is an appropriate federal framework that is applicable to our response?

5 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

For fuck's sake, even to the extent that the feds discuss general guidelines and trigger points, many of the state and local governments aren't following them for shit....We have a non-functional federal government at a time when federal leadership and even enforcement is needed.

Just out of curiosity, what exactly is it that you think that the hypothetical functional federal government should do when a state like Michigan doesn't follow the guidelines put out at federal level?  What about a state like Georgia? Or New York?  What exactly does federal enforcement mean in this context?

[Francisco 2.0 32,430]

Sick burn from the Home Affairs and Law minister of Singapore.  Sure, they have their own issues regarding human rights, but they aren't fucking around:

 

 

[Chooky 13,319]

5 minutes ago, DigDug said:

Nope

 

Oh.  When I first read that I thought the suspects were probably freedom fighters or noble guardians of the caucasia oath.  But with the pictures of the suspects I can now tell they are thugs.  

[Wanker Bob 379]

2 hours ago, Foosters said:

 

Meanwhile, over on the DT thread, the prevailing sentiment seems to be that the exact opposite will happen.

That thread need to be renamed

"Coronavirus thread for dipshits God hates"

[DigDug 1,672]

5 minutes ago, Chooky said:

Oh.  When I first read that I thought the suspects were probably freedom fighters or noble guardians of the caucasia oath.  But with the pictures of the suspects I can now tell they are thugs.  

Considering they just blew a guys head off for trying to keep store patrons safe, I would say thugs or pieces of shit would be pretty accurate.

[FondrenRoad 4,378]

1 hour ago, Horn Under a Bad Sign said:

We. Are. So. Fucked.

 

 

Now imagine for a second if an imam had tweeted Liberate Michigan and then a muslim killed someone for trying to make him follow state law. 

[DigDug 1,672]

btw if you google dollar store murder, you get a ton of hits.  Man people be getting killed down at the discount store.

[Message Board User 12,396]

Remember we’re all in this together.

[Brisketexan 105,383]

10 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

You are the one throwing around hyperlocalized examples about mosquito control in your backyard to dismiss the appropriate role for local decision making during this response, and you are telling me not to argue extremes when I suggest that there is an appropriate federal framework that is applicable to our response?

Sure.  There are national/global standards for all kinds of things that are triggered based on regional specifics.  There are standards on how to plumb houses -- the application of those standards depends on the zone the property is in -- is it in an area that regularly experiences temperatures below 20 degrees for extended periods of time?  Then you need to apply the portion of the standard that applies in that area.  Folks in Miami don't need to follow that part of the standard.  You set a standard that accounts for different conditions, then apply it consistently.

In this case, there are already some federal "guidelines" (declining cases for 14 days, etc.).  Not many, and they're not really applied, but they can and should exist.  What applies to NYC won't apply to Possum Spittle, Arkansas.  But SOME things that apply to NYC (say, guidelines for occupancy in mass transit) will apply EVERYWHERE there is a train or bus service.  Some things that apply in Possum Spittle (avoid group singing in enclosed spaces, like churches or concerts) will apply everywhere.

Quote

Just out of curiosity, what exactly is it that you think that the hypothetical functional federal government should do when a state like Michigan doesn't follow the guidelines put out at federal level?  What about a state like Georgia? Or New York?  What exactly does federal enforcement mean in this context?

First, be coherent and cooperative.  It's easier to catch flies with honey than vinegar.  Demonstrate good leadership with some good science, and most states will largely follow your lead.  As far as utterly defiant states, who say "fuck this, we're gonna be fully open," the federal government can and should exercise its authority to limit interstate commerce and travel between the states.  If Michigan wants to create super-spreaders and send them out in to the world, the Feds can do exactly what Texas did at the Louisiana border, and restrict cross-border traffic.

Here's a thought -- were the blackout restrictions in Hawaii and along the west coast in early WWII solely a creature of local ordinance, or federal war response?  Hint: the feds issued the orders, and let local authorities customize local rules etc. to comply with same.  A standard, with some local variation in application and implementation.  But federal leadership was essential.  And if you want to go even further down that rabbit hole, you can look up how local resistance to blackout rules on the east coast meant that allied shipping was silhouetted against backlighting, making easy targets for U-boats.  Giving local jurisdiction that much leeway had NATIONAL negative implications.  It was dumb then, it's dumb now.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,367]

 

[4th&Five 41,591]

I'll take the over...

 

[Wanker Bob 379]

1 hour ago, Anastasis said:

I think that it works both ways brisket.  The appropriate solution for NY state or NY city, today, will not necessarily be the appropriate solution today for Texas, or Austin, or Kerrville. 

The appropriate solution is the same everywhere. Stay out of large groups. Refrain from touching public surfaces with your hands. Keep distance from others and 100 percent everyone wears a mouth and nose mask when in public. 

Only one political party refuses to do this. And with the nature of the virus the rest of us are in greater danger because of their selfish stupidity. 

[Wanker Bob 379]

20 minutes ago, Message Board User said:

Remember we’re all in this together.

But half of us don't give a shit about following protocol and are risking the lives of the other half. 

That half is causing the break down of this country. 

[Continental Op 3,934]

2 hours ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

Huh. Who's "we" and what mechanisms do "we" use to collectively do things and agree in good faith to take action together? Is it the stuff that the burn it down guys burned down?

Well what you apparently don't understand is that if you just say "We shouldn't be doing it" without saying "Well, it really tells us nothing but..." first then you can't continue to exist in some nebulous reality were there is no such thing as objective truth and continue to portray yourself as being above the fray. 

[Anastasis 23,487]

24 minutes ago, Continental Op said:

Well what you apparently don't understand is that if you just say "We shouldn't be doing it" without saying "Well, it really tells us nothing but..." first then you can't continue to exist in some nebulous reality were there is no such thing as objective truth and continue to portray yourself as being above the fray. 

The objective reality is that the data that the twatter shared are completely useless to supporting the assertion accompanying the twat.  Sorry for pointing that out. 

[Bozo_Casanova 26,570]

Shot:

2 hours ago, Anastasis said:

"We" would be the local government entities that are providing guidance to local businesses under their jurisdiction. 

Chaser:

2 hours ago, Horn Under a Bad Sign said:

We. Are. So. Fucked.

 

 

 

[Anastasis 23,487]

solid contribution Bozo. 

[Pancho 45,021]

 

[Anastasis 23,487]

45 minutes ago, Wanker Bob said:

The appropriate solution is the same everywhere. Stay out of large groups. Refrain from touching public surfaces with your hands. Keep distance from others and 100 percent everyone wears a mouth and nose mask when in public. 

Yeah, I agree that these measures are a universally important part of the solution.  The whole managing the economic re-entry thing is a bit more complex however. 

[Underdog 28,776]

Odds Trump blames the killing of the Security Guard on Whitmer?

Edited May 4, 2020 by Underdog

[jimmyjazz 46,187]

4 hours ago, Lagunamadre said:

This brought up memories of my favorite description of Houston from Hunter S. Thompson. 

"Houston is a cruel, crazy town on a filthy river in east Texas with no zoning laws and a culture of sex, money and violence. It's a shabby, sprawling metropolis ruled by brazen women, crooked cops and super-rich pansexual cowboys who live by the code of the west—which can mean just about anything you need it to mean, in a pinch."''
 

Holy shit, that is spot on.  How did I ever miss that?  Where did he write that?

I'm going to be embarrassed by the answer, I'm sure.

[Wanker Bob 379]

24 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Yeah, I agree that these measures are a universally important part of the solution.  The whole managing the economic re-entry thing is a bit more complex however. 

If 100 percent compliance or close to it were achieved by the people then it would be a lot easier to perform the economic reopening under these conditions. Having half the country be complete idiots makes any attempt at an economic reopening almost certainly doomed to failure. Especially when the testing/tracing/quarantine procedures aren't put in place. 

Adherence to universal proper safety protocols and opening up businesses in a safe manner aren't mutually exclusive. 

Edited May 4, 2020 by Wanker Bob

[DigDug 1,672]

24 minutes ago, Underdog said:

Odds Trump blames the killing of the Security Guard on Whitmer?

I would say somewhere between 99 & 101 percent.

[Wanker Bob 379]

11 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Holy shit, that is spot on.  How did I ever miss that?  Where did he write that?

I'm going to be embarrassed by the answer, I'm sure.

"Fear and Loathing in the Dirty South" 

A lesser known work. 

[Jack Straw 2,954]

2 hours ago, Wanker Bob said:

Why we're definitely well over 100k deaths from this at this moment. 

republicans can't keep from lying about their own people dying 

Republicans not only accept, but are absolutely proud of Trump's, and their own fundamental and pathological dishonesty.

[henrygandorf 29,195]

2 hours ago, Francisco 2.0 said:

Season 4 of The Trump Administration is just full of plot twists and entertainment.  

When Season 1 came out, no one could have envisioned what the series could devolve into.

that's just good writing.

[DixonHur 11,389]

1 hour ago, 4th&Five said:

I'll take the over...

 

If it's doubling to 135,000, that means we already hit the previous target.  Doesn't sound like the best model ever.

[Lagunamadre 1,975]

25 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Holy shit, that is spot on.  How did I ever miss that?  Where did he write that?

I'm going to be embarrassed by the answer, I'm sure.

A 2004 article opining on the Bush presidency. https://www.commondreams.org/views04/1028-29.htm

Such a wonderful description. I live in Houston and wear that quote as a badge of honor. It must be all the time I spent in Nuevo Laredo growing up that left me with an affinity for chaos.