CR: COVID-19 --Political Talk

[triplehorn 2664]

1 hour ago, GRHorn said:

Gonna have to take a wait and see approach after the HCQ fiasco 

Re dexamethasone, great news if true. 

Another old generic repurposed drug from the 50's?  If only they turned profits for big pharma.

[gmr548 16580]

Triple will find a way to positively spin a study that shows that HCQ causes a 75% increase in the chances of your dick falling off.

25 percent of patents keep their dicks!

[Dirk X West 772]

2 minutes ago, gmr548 said:

1 hour ago, kevwun said:

Triple will find a way to positively spin a study that shows that HCQ causes a 75% increase in the chances of your dick falling off.

25 percent of patents keep their dicks!

Why isn't this being reported!!?!

[triplehorn 2664]

3 minutes ago, gmr548 said:

25 percent of patents keep their dicks!

corona free * 

[safe sex 11735]

Given the choice between HCQ and decadron...I'll take the decadron

[Dahobbs 17625]

47 minutes ago, triplehorn said:

Above, I pointed out that what was said about the FDA policy change was misunderstood in this thread.  That's all.  The Trump official at the table explained it.  The communication and messaging around everything is just so mangled.  And again, in the bulleted information you included, the studies and conclusions almost entirely relate to hospitalized patients with advanced illness.  People's understanding is fixated on the results of late stage application.  

Can someone point me to a US study on early application where mitigation of illness severity or incidence of need for hospitalization was measured?  A single US study?  On the international front, there's been quite a bit of arrogant ridicule of international scientists and physicians they disagree with, and mocking of preprints and published non-US research.  In the meantime, there is mounting evidence internationally that early application is where the effect is observed. 

Regarding the kids warning and malpractice scare, welcome to medicine!  No kid should have access to your prescriptions ever.  That's includes your Tylenol which can also be fatal.  Informed consent goes along with any prescribed use of medication, whether it's on or off-label.  And HCQ is a lot less likely to cause any meaningful adverse event in 5 days of use than a multitude of medications prescribed for their FDA approved use.  People are acting like off-label use of anything by definition is some rogue act.  It's not.  Are there some off-label uses that are not safe and completely unsupported by anything? Yes, of course.  But that is not the case here. 

So today, at the federal level, HCQ can be used off-label in the US for early intervention of Covid infection.  However some individual States may still have policies in place that restrict use to hospitalized patients or clinical trials.

You are absolutely wrong. The media has reported the FDA policy change correctly. The FDA has reported the science correctly. The Trump official was trying to spin the FDA policy change. 

Here is the way medical science works: it is the responsibility of the person making a claim that drug/treatment provides a benefit to PROVE it. The FDA policy change stated the simple fact that there is no proven benefit to HCQ. It went further and stated that NIH guidelines no longer just recommend HCQ usage for clinical trials, but actively recommend NOT PRESCRIBING HCQ outside of clinical trials.

That there is no regulation specifically saying that doctors cannot prescribe HCQ for Covid-19 does not mean that it is professionally responsible to do so. Rather, HCQ shares the same status as any other medication, a doctor should only prescribe if the benefits outweigh the risks and the patient has provided informed consent. Basically, any doctor prescribing HCQ for Covid-19 outside of the clinical trial setting and without fully informing the patient that we have no scientific evidence of benefit and that there are known risks to HCQ is committing medical malpractice. Full stop.

I'm having a real hard time not negging you for this blatant misinformation. 

Edited June 16, 2020 by Dahobbs

[Wanker Bob 379]

15 hours ago, 4th&Five said:

 

If the Texas excessive pneumonia as primary cause of death statistics for 2020 hold true all over the country we may already be over 201k right now. By October might be over 500k 

[Wanker Bob 379]

8 hours ago, washparkhorn said:

Fatal health risk for kids taking malaria drugs (drugs that kill mosquito protozoa in your blood).

You treat malaria with heavy brutish weapons loaded with risk Serious accidental overdose risk for kids with as little as two rather than on tablet. This is well known, but malaria is a horror show in Africa.

Journal of Emergency Medicine (pre-Covid) - https://www.jem-journal.com/article/S0736-4679(05)00030-2/fulltext

Trump misled the American public. He needs to say he was wrong and warn the people who trust him for medical advice. 

Eh, anyone looking to trump for medical advice is too stupid to live. Let's focus on saving people who are just ignorant

[Brisketexan 105158]

13 minutes ago, Wanker Bob said:

If the Texas excessive pneumonia as primary cause of death statistics for 2020 hold true all over the country we may already be over 201k right now. By October might be over 500k 

I said over a month ago that holding national deaths below 250k or so by year end would be a win.  Looks like we may be shooting for the over.  I don't think it will be by a huge number, but 300k certainly looks like it's in reach.

[GRHorn 105]

1 hour ago, trauma babe said:

Given the choice between HCQ and decadron...I'll take the decadron

True. Just may have to tolerate some intense burning in your crotch when it’s given. 

[triplehorn 2664]

30 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

 

"You are absolutely wrong. The media has reported the FDA policy change correctly. The FDA has reported the science correctly. The Trump official was trying to spin the FDA policy change."

- I'm still trying to understand exactly what happened, but I took it to mean that by the FDA retracting the emergency approval of HCQ in hospitalized patients, they are essentially saying "you do not need our emergency approval to apply this medication for off-label use."  In effect, I took it to mean their emergency approval was saying that by default all other applications required similar emergency approval.  My understanding is that limit is gone now.  Other aspects of what you assert may very well be accurate and in effect without any conflict with the former change.

 

"Here is the way medical science works: it is the responsibility of the person making a claim that drug/treatment provides a benefit to PROVE it. The FDA policy change stated the simple fact that there is no proven benefit to HCQ. It went further and stated that NIH guidelines no longer just recommend HCQ usage for clinical trials, but actively recommend NOT PRESCRIBING HCQ outside of clinical trials.  [...] "Basically, any doctor prescribing HCQ for Covid-19 outside of the clinical trial setting and without fully informing the patient that we have no scientific evidence of benefit and that there are known risks to HCQ is committing medical malpractice. Full stop."  "

- Look, there are at least half a dozen or more widely applied off-label uses of HCQ, and for conditions a lot less likely to put you in the ICU on a vent, or dead within weeks.  Why isn't the FDA dropping the hammer there?  I expect it's because of safety.  HCQ has a robust and very long track record for safety.  Yes it carries some risks, but that can be avoided when use or not is determined 1:1 under medical supervision, like so many other examples.  That gives the medical community a much wider space to find ways to help sick patients.  So the risk/benefit of using HCQ in a patient without contraindications to treat Covid-19 tilts heavily in favor of early use of HCQ.  And the evidence is mounting internationally (and less reported in the US) that early application of HCQ has a mitigating effect on course and severity of Covid-19 illness.  You saying no scientific evidence of benefit exists is a head scratcher.  Here's a helpful PDF file of world studies to date

 

 

 

 

[triplehorn 2664]

1 hour ago, trauma babe said:

Given the choice between HCQ and decadron...I'll take the decadron

Wise choice.  No one is giving HCQ when you're hospitalized anymore. 

Alternatively, no one is getting IV/IM dexamethasone sitting at home with early uncomplicated symptoms.

[Aqua Buddha 14598]

Can someone help me with the HCQ truthers?  I have a friend that is convinced HCQ is working around the world but we refuse to use it because of some grand conspiracy.  Is it working worldwide?  Thanks, I'll hang up and listen.

[MC Fresh Breath 4074]

Welp, so far Central Oregon has managed to get by unscathed.  However, there are certainly some issues in the rest of the State:

Quote

 

Spike in Oregon COVID-19 cases tied to Union County church

SALEM, Ore. (AP) — Oregon’s coronavirus cases continue to rise, with 184 new cases reported Monday - the highest daily count in the state since the start of the pandemic.

The Oregon Health Authority says a portion of the increase is due to an outbreak in Union County in the rural northeastern part of the state, where 99 people tested positive for COVID-19. A number of cases are associated with the Lighthouse Pentecostal Church in Union County, said Dr. Paul Cieslak, medical director for infectious diseases and immunizations at the Health Authority Public Health Division.

Authorities weren’t more specific about exactly how many cases were tied to the church.

Cieslak said because there were cases associated with the church, the county worked with it to host a testing clinic.

“We have been doing testing, especially targeted testing, around the places where we are starting to see clusters,” Cieslak. “The clusters cue us off where the disease transmission is going on and once you find a cluster and have a testing event like this, you find a lot of people infected.”

Cieslak said 365 people in Union County were tested over the weekend, and officials are expecting the remaining test results Tuesday.

Union County has a population of nearly 27,000 according to the U.S. Census. Prior to the latest, Union County had fewer than 25 confirmed cases during the pandemic.

“We were surprised by the number that tested positive,” Cieslak said.

The county moved into phase 2 of the state’s reopening plan, which loosens restrictions on restaurants and gatherings, June 5.

“One of our messages that we are trying to get out to the public is that large gatherings, especially in close quarters if distancing can’t be maintained, are really an efficient way in spreading COVID-19,” Cieslak said. “Whether it be in a workplace, or especially a closed assembly area, this is really a concern.”

Monday’s reported cases across the state bring the new total number of people who have tested positive for coronavirus in Oregon to 5,820. In addition, four more people have died from the disease, raising the state’s death toll to 180. The second highest daily case count in the state was 178 cases on Thursday.

In response to the increasing case counts Gov. Kate Brown last week said she was putting all county applications for further reopening from her COVID-19 restrictions on hold for seven days.

For most, the coronavirus causes mild or moderate symptoms, such as fever and cough that clear up in two to three weeks. For some, especially older adults and people with existing health problems, it can cause more severe illness, including pneumonia and death.

 

https://apnews.com/2306ec25bf15f2529cf44471d5131556

[Francisco 2.0 32395]

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-usa-bailout-insigh/did-elite-david-boies-law-firm-get-a-pandemic-bailout-its-a-secret-idUSKBN23N1OG

 

Quote

When the U.S. government announced a multibillion-dollar bailout of struggling small businesses amid the coronavirus pandemic, one of the top U.S. law firms sensed an opportunity.

Leaders of the high-profile firm founded by David Boies circulated an email asking shareholder partners to authorize the firm to seek up to $20 million in forgivable government loans, two sources familiar with the matter told Reuters. Boies Schiller Flexner, where partners commonly earn seven-figure compensation, is known for representing Hollywood producer Harvey Weinstein against sexual-assault accusations and companies ranging from Oracle to Theranos.

 

Quote

The firm declined to comment on whether it actually applied for or received the money under the U.S. government’s Paycheck Protection Program. And the government won’t say - because of a policy that keeps all such applications and awards secret. 

The U.S. Small Business Administration (SBA), which oversees the program, declined to comment on whether Boies Schiller has applied for a PPP loan. The agency previously told Reuters that it would post individual loan data when its current round of PPP funding runs out. But it did not say whether that data will include borrower names or amounts or detail what it plans to release. U.S. Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin told the U.S. Senate’s small business committee on Wednesday that borrower names and amounts received would not be made public, calling the information proprietary and confidential.

 

Quote

Critics say the government is violating public records laws and handing out billions of dollars in taxpayer money with no public accountability. 

Several major news organizations, including The Washington Post and The New York Times, have sued the SBA in Washington D.C. federal court, arguing that borrowers’ names and loan amounts are legally public. Reuters is not among the plaintiffs. They point out that the SBA has for years released such information on borrowers receiving loans under other programs.

 

Spoiler

The SBA said on Friday in a court filing that some or all of the documents and information the plaintiffs have requested are exempt from disclosure under the Freedom of Information Act, without specifying which ones. 

To apply for a loan, applicants must certify that they need the cash to cover basic needs such as salaries and rent and that “current economic uncertainty makes this loan necessary to support” ongoing operations. With some exceptions, companies have to have 500 or fewer employees to be eligible. 

Companies do not have to pay back the loans as long as they spend the money on eligible expenses. 

PPP loans are capped at $10 million. The two sources, who declined to be identified, said they did not know why Boies Schiller asked its partners about applying for double that amount. Some applicants have sought and received multiple loans by making applications through more than one subsidiary. 

The April email from the managing partners seeking partner approval caused concern among some of the firm’s members, the two sources said. 

Some partners believed that the firm’s leadership had not been transparent about its finances and that it might not need the money, the sources said. Boies Schiller does not disclose its financial information, but last year its shareholder partners earned an average of more than $3 million, according to the American Lawyer. 

Managing partners Nicholas Gravante and Natasha Harrison followed up with lawyers who didn’t immediately respond to the April email, sources said. 

Since the launch of the PPP, some companies, such as Shake Shack and Ruth Hospitality Group Inc, have reported receiving funds in regulatory filings. Both companies have said they will return the money, in response to public backlash against big companies taking the loans even though they have other means of funding not available to small businesses. The SBA has said it will audit loans over $2 million. 

Unlike public companies, which must periodically report on their finances, private law firms have no such requirements. 

The coronavirus pandemic has hit many U.S. law firms hard. More than 25 of the 200 top grossing U.S. law firms, according to the American Lawyer, have laid off or furloughed employees since March. The U.S. legal sector lost a net 62,800 jobs from March to May, according to data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics. 

Boies Schiller declined to comment on whether and to what extent the pandemic has impacted its finances. 

Founded in 1997, Boies Schiller has about 245 lawyers in the U.S. and U.K. according to the firm’s website. In 2019 the firm grossed $405 million, according to the American Lawyer. At least some of its partners bill more than $1,000 an hour, a source familiar with the firm said. 

Boies, the firm’s chairman, is well-known for representing the U.S. government in antitrust litigation against Microsoft Corp and former Vice President Al Gore in the U.S. Supreme Court case over the 2000 presidential election recount. He more recently advised failed blood-testing startup Theranos and Weinstein, who was convicted of sexual assault and rape in a New York court in February. 

The firm’s reputation has recently suffered in the wake of media reports that Boies had used aggressive tactics to defend clients, including hiring the Israeli private intelligence firm Black Cube to quash negative publicity about Theranos and Weinstein. It declined to comment on the reports. 

Since January, more than 25 partners have left the firm, Reuters has reported, including two top litigators who jumped to another firm last week. Leaders of the firm have said many of the departures are tied to an internal restructuring.

 

[elfenix 34322]

the way PPP was done you'd be financially irresponsible not to take one of the loans.  if you qualify for forgiveness, it's free money.

[Post Oak 20246]

4 hours ago, Francisco 2.0 said:

 

I didn't think I'd wake up this morning agreeing with this bitch but here we are. 

 

[JBJ 3655]

20 minutes ago, Aqua Buddha said:

Can someone help me with the HCQ truthers?  I have a friend that is convinced HCQ is working around the world but we refuse to use it because of some grand conspiracy.  Is it working worldwide?  Thanks, I'll hang up and listen.

It's too dangerous to use in the quantities required to be an effective treament.

It has the data backing to form a valid hypothesis that it is effective as a prophylaxis.

There's been one study completed and it reduced infection by 16.7% which was insignificant for the sampling (the 3-sigma was -50% to +15%).  HQC also unfortunately allows many participants to identify whether they are in the control group or not because of nild but obvious side effects. 

So basically no results from clinical trails.

[MC Fresh Breath 4074]

11 minutes ago, elfenix said:

the way PPP was done you'd be financially irresponsible not to take one of the loans.  if you qualify for forgiveness, it's free money.

 

I wonder how I could have scammed some of that free money for my personal get high and play video games business?

 

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/06/16/congress-small-business-loan-320625

Quote

 

Members of Congress took small-business loans — and the full extent is unknown

At least four members of Congress have reaped benefits in some way from the half-trillion-dollar small-business loan program they helped create.

And no one knows how many more there could be.

It’s a bipartisan group of lawmakers who have acknowledged close ties to companies that have received loans from the program — businesses that are either run by their families or employ their spouse as a senior executive.

Republicans on the list include Rep. Roger Williams of Texas, a wealthy businessman who owns auto dealerships, body shops and car washes, and Rep. Vicky Hartzler of Missouri, whose family owns multiple farms and equipment suppliers across the Midwest. The Democrats count Rep. Susie Lee of Nevada, whose husband is CEO of a regional casino developer, and Rep. Debbie Mucarsel Powell of Florida, whose husband is an executive at a restaurant chain that has since returned the loan.

And there are almost certainly more, according to aides and lawmakers. But only the Small Business Administration and Treasury Department have that information, and the Trump administration is refusing to provide any details. That leaves it entirely up to business owners — including elected officials — to decide whether to come forward about a loan, which can be as large as $10 million.

Democrats have tried to pry free the list of recipients. But their push in the House to require disclosure of at least some companies was blocked on the floor late last month by Republicans — including Williams and Hartzler, who voted against the bill. Lee and Powell joined all Democrats in supporting it. All four lawmakers have previously voted in favor of the small-business program.

“This is the largest distributor of taxpayer money in human history, and we need to ensure taxpayers know where it’s going,” the author of that bill, Rep. Dean Phillips, said in an interview. The Minnesota Democrat added that his bill “was not written to expose members of Congress, because frankly I expected members of Congress to be forthright and transparent to begin with.”

 

 

(that's not the entire article, btw)

[justhookit 4191]

1 hour ago, Wanker Bob said:

If the Texas excessive pneumonia as primary cause of death statistics for 2020 hold true all over the country we may already be over 201k right now. By October might be over 500k 

Seriously, this shit again?

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/index.htm Scroll down to table 1. There are 174,470 deaths in the country so far this year from covid, pneumonia, and flu. Combined. So even if you are trying to assume that every single flu and pneumonia death this year are actually from covid LOL, you still can’t make it to 200,000.

i agree with you that we are undercounting covid deaths. But the number isn’t nearly as large as what you keep trying to say. just stop.

[DDD Dad 14339]

Can we just set up an entirely new forum for HCQ discussion?

We could call it triplehorn's corner.

[Dahobbs 17625]

1 hour ago, triplehorn said:

- I'm still trying to understand exactly what happened, but I took it to mean that by the FDA retracting the emergency approval of HCQ in hospitalized patients, they are essentially saying "you do not need our emergency approval to apply this medication for off-label use."  In effect, I took it to mean their emergency approval was saying that by default all other applications required similar emergency approval.  My understanding is that limit is gone now.  Other aspects of what you assert may very well be accurate and in effect without any conflict with the former change.

Dear god, no. An Emergency Use Authorization removes regulatory red tape from the manufacturers and distributors of medical products.  Basically, it allows the manufacturers and distributors of an unapproved product (unapproved for any purpose) to distribute the product to the public. And it also allows manufacturers and distributors to distribute an approved product for an unapproved use (in this case, distributing HCQ and CQ for use to treat Covid-19), including making changes to their labeling and advertising without going through the typical regulatory process with the FDA. 

In this particular instance, the EUA was specifically aimed at allow the Strategic National Stockpile to distribute oral formulations of HCQ and CQ to the public for use in treating Covid-19. Revocation of the EUA means the SNS cannot continue to distribute product for that purpose (and neither can private entities). 

Quote

- Look, there are at least half a dozen or more widely applied off-label uses of HCQ, and for conditions a lot less likely to put you in the ICU on a vent, or dead within weeks.  Why isn't the FDA dropping the hammer there?  I expect it's because of safety.  HCQ has a robust and very long track record for safety.  Yes it carries some risks, but that can be avoided when use or not is determined 1:1 under medical supervision, like so many other examples.  That gives the medical community a much wider space to find ways to help sick patients.  So the risk/benefit of using HCQ in a patient without contraindications to treat Covid-19 tilts heavily in favor of early use of HCQ.  And the evidence is mounting internationally (and less reported in the US) that early application of HCQ has a mitigating effect on course and severity of Covid-19 illness.  You saying no scientific evidence of benefit exists is a head scratcher.  Here's a helpful PDF file of world studies to date

No, no, no, no. That is not how the medical profession works. Off-label use of a drug of medical device is fine IF there is evidence that benefits outweigh any risks. A manufacturer or seller can't advertise the product for that purpose, but a doctor can prescribe the treatment, subject to liability for malpractice if it isn't actually an appropriate treatment. The big key here is that there must be established benefits to the treatment, not conjecture. 

HCQ is considered safe and effective for treating certain conditions, mainly malaria, but also some forms of lupus and arthritis. That is because despite the known complications associated of HCQ, its benefits in treating those conditions outweighs those risks. If a patient doesn't have one of those conditions, there is no known benefit to HCQ. Accordingly, if there is ANY risk (and there is) associated with HCQ, then the benefits cannot outweigh them and it cannot be considered an appropriate treatment. 

Here is another example that highlights the problem with your reasoning: chemotherapy. You cannot conclude chemotherapy is generally safe just because it is safe for the treatment for cancer.  Chemotherapy is poison. It literally kills a person from the inside out. But, it also has the beneficial effect of killing cancer cells, and typically doing so faster than it kills the person. So, chemotherapy is considered a safe and effective treatment . . . for cancer. It isn't a safe treatment for any other purpose. And, even if were effective at say killing sars-cov-2, the cure would quite literally be worse than the disease because of how terrible chemotherapy is for human body. It is only safe for the treatment of cancer because cancer is such a god awful fucking disease.

Edited June 16, 2020 by Dahobbs

[triplehorn 2664]

52 minutes ago, Aqua Buddha said:

Can someone help me with the HCQ truthers?  I have a friend that is convinced HCQ is working around the world but we refuse to use it because of some grand conspiracy.  Is it working worldwide?  Thanks, I'll hang up and listen.

Re-linking this PDF from bottom of last page.  There's quite a lot out there.

 

 

13 minutes ago, JBJ said:

It's too dangerous to use in the quantities required to be an effective treament.

How do you derive this assertion?

[JBJ 3655]

10 minutes ago, triplehorn said:

How do you derive this assertion?

Okay, thay was too broad an assertion. 

Many studies ran have against the safety wall for the treatments they used, casting doubt on it's effectiveness as a treatment.

----

I should also incude that it's not "truther" material.  It's being seriously studied around the globe and new studies are being published or preprinted at least weekly, probably daily.  Science (the journal) has a side-blog dedicated to it.

Edited June 16, 2020 by JBJ

[triplehorn 2664]

2 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

Dear god, no. An Emergency Use Authorization removes regulatory red tape from the manufacturers and distributors of medical products.  Basically, it allows the manufacturers and distributors of the an unapproved product (in this case, oral formulations of HCQ and CQ) to distribute the product to the public. It also allows manufacturers and distributors to distribute an approved product for an unapproved use (in this case, distributing HCQ and CQ for use to treat Covid-19), including making changes to their labeling and advertising without going through the typical regulatory process with the FDA. 

In this particular instance, the EUA was specifically aimed at allow the Strategic National Stockpile to distribute oral formulations of HCQ and CQ to the public for use in treating Covid-19. Revocation of the EUA means the SNS cannot continue to distribute product for that purpose (and neither can private entities). 

Ok, in this specific EUA case, "the product" was a specific batch of HCQ held in bulk in US stockpile that was manufactured in Pakistan that lacked adequate production certification.  It was not generalizable to "all sources" of (H)CQ.  I think that's where the public confusion arises and what the Trump official explains if you go back and listen.  total public messaging clusterfuck.

 

7 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

 HCQ is considered safe and effective for treating certain conditions, mainly malaria, but also some forms of lupus and arthritis. That is because despite the known complications associated of HCQ, its benefits in treating those conditions outweighs those risks.

Hold up here.  HCQ is primarily used as pre-exposure prophylaxis in healthy unaffected people.  So we're talking about millions of doses of HCQ being taken for decades by people WITH NO EXISTING MEDICAL CONDITION that would warrant taking it.  Think about what you're saying.

[safe sex 11735]

1 hour ago, GRHorn said:

True. Just may have to tolerate some intense burning in your crotch when it’s given. 

Better than heart block.

[4th&Five 41559]

Just now, DDD Dad said:

Can we just set up an entirely new forum for HCQ discussion?

We could call it triplehorn's corner.

 

[Dahobbs 17625]

11 minutes ago, triplehorn said:

Hold up here.  HCQ is primarily used as pre-exposure prophylaxis in healthy unaffected people.  So we're talking about millions of doses of HCQ being taken for decades by people WITH NO EXISTING MEDICAL CONDITION that would warrant taking it.  Think about what you're saying.

If you live in California or Utah or Minnesota, or pretty much anywhere in the US, a doctor would be committing malpractice by prescribing you HCQ to prevent or treat malaria. There is no threat of encountering malaria. Here is the label:

Quote

 

Prophylaxis Adults: 400 mg (310 mg base) once weekly on the same day of each week starting 2 weeks prior to exposure, and continued for 4 weeks after leaving the endemic area. Weight-based dosing in adults and pediatric patients: 6.5 mg/kg (5 mg/kg base), not to exceed 400 mg (310 mg base), once weekly on the same day of the week starting 2 weeks prior to exposure, and continued for 4 weeks after leaving the endemic area.

Treatment of Uncomplicated Malaria Adults: 800 mg (620 mg base) followed by 400 mg (310 mg base) at 6 hours, 24 hours and 48 hours after the initial dose (total 2000 mg hydroxychloroquine sulfate or 1550 mg base). Weight based dosage in adults and pediatric patients: 13 mg/kg (10 mg/kg base), not to exceed 800 mg (620 mg base) followed by 6.5 mg/kg (5 mg/kg base), not to exceed 400 mg (310 mg base), at 6 hours, 24 hours and 48 hours after the initial dose. PLAQUENIL film-coated tablets cannot be divided, therefore they should not be used to treat patients who weigh less than 31 kg. For radical cure of P. vivax and P. malariae infections, concomitant therapy with an 8­ aminoquinoline compound is necessary.

 

A doctor shouldn't be prescribing HCQ unless the person is likely to be exposed to malaria, has been exposed malaria, or currently has uncomplicated malaria. 

Stop with your nonsense. 

Edited June 16, 2020 by Dahobbs

[Horn Dog 9875]

52 minutes ago, Post Oak said:

I didn't think I'd wake up this morning agreeing with this bitch but here we are. 

 

 Amazingly COVID19 is not the most dangerous virus currently circulating in this country.  I like to call it FOXID19 and there is no vaccine that will save us.

[triplehorn 2664]

7 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

If you live in California or Utah or Minnesota, or pretty much anywhere in the US, a doctor would be committing malpractice by prescribing you HCQ to prevent or treat malaria. There is no threat of encountering malaria. Here is the label:

A doctor shouldn't be prescribing HCQ unless the person is likely to be exposed to malaria, has been exposed malaria, or currently has uncomplicated malaria. 

Stop with your nonsense. 

You're missing the point.  It has a longstanding and well established safety profile.  In a risk/benefit scenario, it's so safe that people take it with no existing medical condition, and with only a *chance* they will be exposed to the malaria protozoa.  No one is trying to put one over on their patients or trying to coerce them.  Anyone prescribing it off-label should be doing 1:1 due diligence for standard medical screening and consent like for any other on-label or off-label consideration.  A lot of people will remain afraid to ever consider it, even with their own positive Covid-19 test, and that's perfectly fine.  We need to adhere to evidence based approaches whenever and wherever possible, but medicine in real time practice during a deadly novel pandemic creates real pressure to go outside of that limit to immediately save lives.  Please drop the blanket off-label malpractice diatribe.

 

 

[Dahobbs 17625]

29 minutes ago, triplehorn said:

You're missing the point.  It has a longstanding and well established safety profile.  In a risk/benefit scenario, it's so safe that people take it with no existing medical condition, and with only a *chance* they will be exposed to the malaria protozoa.  No one is trying to put one over on their patients or trying to coerce them.  Anyone prescribing it off-label should be doing 1:1 due diligence for standard medical screening and consent like for any other on-label or off-label consideration.  A lot of people will remain afraid to ever consider it, even with their own positive Covid-19 test, and that's perfectly fine.  We need to adhere to evidence based approaches whenever and wherever possible, but medicine in real time practice during a deadly novel pandemic creates real pressure to go outside of that limit to immediately save lives.  Please drop the blanket off-label malpractice diatribe.

 

 

Please drop your blatant misinformation. There is no demonstrated benefit to hcq for treatment of covid-19. It doesnt matter what the safety profile is for other indications, the benefits cannot exceed the risks when treating for covid-19 because it has no demonstrated benefits. None. Stop it. I'm negging every post with this nonsense from here on out. 

[triplehorn 2664]

5 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

There is no demonstrated benefit to hcq for treatment of covid-19.

Stop saying this.

 

American Journal of Epidemiology: 

Early Outpatient Treatment of Symptomatic, High-Risk Covid-19 Patients that Should be Ramped-Up Immediately as Key to the Pandemic Crisis

"Five studies, including two controlled clinical trials, have demonstrated significant major outpatient treatment efficacy."

 

Quote

Hydroxychloroquine+azithromycin has been widely misrepresented in both clinical reports and public media, and outpatient trials results are not expected until September. Early outpatient illness is very different than later hospitalized florid disease and the treatments differ. Evidence about use of hydroxychloroquine alone, or of hydroxychloroquine+azithromycin in inpatients, is irrelevant concerning efficacy of the pair in early high-risk outpatient disease. Five studies, including two controlled clinical trials, have demonstrated significant major outpatient treatment efficacy. Hydroxychloroquine+azithromycin has been used as standard-of-care in more than 300,000 older adults with multicomorbidities, with estimated proportion diagnosed with cardiac arrhythmias attributable to the medications 47/100,000 users, of which estimated mortality is <20%, 9/100,000 users, compared to the 10,000 Americans now dying each week. These medications need to be widely available and promoted immediately for physicians to prescribe.

 

 

[Bama Chick 28596]

Dude, read the room.

Make a HCQ thread. You’ve been slapped down repeatedly by smart people who are correcting your fantasies and your attempts to twist the data.

Or take it to the DT COVID thread - you’ll fit in just fine.

[hookem2010 2624]

Are India's death numbers today just a backlog? They have been steadily increasing all day and are over 2,000 now.

[triplehorn 2664]

4 minutes ago, Bama Chick said:

Dude, read the room.

Make a HCQ thread. You’ve been slapped down repeatedly by smart people who are correcting your fantasies and your attempts to twist the data.

Or take it to the DT COVID thread - you’ll fit in just fine.

It's not fantasy and it's not twisting data.  See my post above yours.  My condolences on the tragic loss of your close friend to this plague.  

To your other point, direct some of your attention to those on this thread who continue to talk about it while sending me notifications indicating they're drawing a disagreement.  I'm responding, not randomly showing up to lob shit.

[DigglerontheHoof 21203]

Seriously, break off the HCQ discussion; it's a massive waste of bandwidth.

[triplehorn 2664]

2 hours ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

Welp, so far Central Oregon has managed to get by unscathed.  However, there are certainly some issues in the rest of the State:

https://apnews.com/2306ec25bf15f2529cf44471d5131556

I think Oregon has a pretty intact contact tracing effort underway.  I know the state put out a notice of recruitment to fill 600 newly created positions for statewide tracing the other month.  The days in the last week that have spiked are associated with discovering clusters at food processing plants (Bob's Red Mill near PDX and one or two fish canneries near Newport and Lincoln City on the coast.  Now there's the bunch of singing Pentecostals at the church way out in La Grande.  Multnomah County (Portland) has been steadily in the 20-40 new cases per day for a couple months.  So it's in the community, just not blowing up (yet).  Widespread mask wearing around here has to be helping.  Also, Gov. Kate Brown postponed shut down restrictions for PDX to enter Phase 1 re-opening.  Not much protest over that that I can see.

[AngryDragon 270]

5 hours ago, GRHorn said:

True. Just may have to tolerate some intense burning in your crotch when it’s given. 

Many in Surly have already learned to live with this.

[MC Fresh Breath 4074]

2 hours ago, triplehorn said:

I think Oregon has a pretty intact contact tracing effort underway.  I know the state put out a notice of recruitment to fill 600 newly created positions for statewide tracing the other month.  The days in the last week that have spiked are associated with discovering clusters at food processing plants (Bob's Red Mill near PDX and one or two fish canneries near Newport and Lincoln City on the coast.  Now there's the bunch of singing Pentecostals at the church way out in La Grande.  Multnomah County (Portland) has been steadily in the 20-40 new cases per day for a couple months.  So it's in the community, just not blowing up (yet).  Widespread mask wearing around here has to be helping.  Also, Gov. Kate Brown postponed shut down restrictions for PDX to enter Phase 1 re-opening.  Not much protest over that that I can see.

 

I have not seen wide spread face mask wearing in Central Oregon, sadly.  Yet somehow Deschutes County has so far been relatively spared.  Agreed on the contract tracing efforts.  They seem substantial.

[elfenix 34322]

reddit visualizations:

 

 

not sure why every other thing from reddit embeds and autoplays but this won't:

county level growth of cases from 1/21

https://preview.redd.it/o7p1mo987a551.gif?format=mp4&s=7315a940652432fed343b5fd197166cbe15b8b11

 

Edited June 17, 2020 by elfenix

[LABEVO 928]

Given our inability to enact decent policy, what % of the population ultimately is infected and what % dies?

we have to assume that this isn’t going away until their is a vaccine which at best is Q4 and mass production at best Q2 2021....

[jimmyjazz 45978]

That "mean center" graph is interesting.  I guess Washington and California were overweighting by distance against New York early on, putting the center of "mass" somewhere near Couchburn, WV.

[washparkhorn 9939]

New Zealand, which days ago became COVID-19 free, loses track of two Brits on vacation who broke quarantine.  Turns out they have the Rona. So - New Zealand calls in the military. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/17/new-zealand-brings-in-military-after-covid-19-quarantine-fiasco?utm_term=RWRpdG9yaWFsX0d1YXJkaWFuVG9kYXlVS19XZWVrZGF5cy0yMDA2MTc%3D&utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&CMP=GTUK_email&utm_campaign=GuardianTodayUK

NZ was a beacon of hope with their zero cases and their ability to resume rugby with fans in the seats.  Bums me out they lost that valiant fight.

 

Edited June 17, 2020 by washparkhorn

[LABEVO 928]

 

[washparkhorn 9939]

15 minutes ago, LABEVO said:

 

This was not our best hour. The vast majority of Americans have been doing the right thing - whatever that means for your community. 

Watch hospital numbers - and remember this is not an automatically to the ICU event anymore. "All beds" become more important than the first wave and they fill up fast - especially with delayed and necessary surgeries. Treaters have studied and learned. They are saving lives now that would have been lost in the first wave. And that takes capacity. 

The fight against COVID-19 is not over. Thank you to those who attend to those with the virus - from the maintenance crews to the nurses - you don't get enough credit. Docs are glory boys (and girls) - they get enough hype.

 

[safe sex 11735]

Sure could go for a strong nurses union in Texas, like the fab California Nurse's Association. 

[Bama Chick 28596]

This was not our best hour. The vast majority of Americans have been doing the right thing - whatever that means for your community. 
Watch hospital numbers - and remember this is not an automatically to the ICU event anymore. "All beds" become more important than the first wave and they fill up fast - especially with delayed and necessary surgeries. Treaters have studied and learned. They are saving lives now that would have been lost in the first wave. And that takes capacity. 
The fight against COVID-19 is not over. Thank you to those who attend to those with the virus - from the maintenance crews to the nurses - you don't get enough credit. Docs are glory boys (and girls) - they get enough hype.
 

I agree with all of this except the classification of this spike being somehow separate from the “first wave”.

We are not experiencing a second wave - we are still in the first wave.

And I also don’t think the “vast majority of Americans” are currently doing the right things. Not by a long shot.

[washparkhorn 9939]

20 minutes ago, Bama Chick said:

I agree with all of this except the classification of this spike being somehow separate from the “first wave”.

We are not experiencing a second wave - we are still in the first wave.

And I also don’t think the “vast majority of Americans” are currently doing the right things. Not by a long shot.

I hear you. Alabama is in the eye of the storm. Someone close to me lives in Clemson, SC - and she said there is zero distancing and absolutely no masks, I am just hoping the smart ones are laying lower, washing their hands and wearing a face covering. 

I agree with you about this still being the first wave - there are three peaks - the largest one is the second peak. I have avoided the articles about this being still part of the first wave probably out of a fear of looking at the predicted numbers. So much unnecessary pain and death. 

And I am sorry about your friend. I cannot imagine how you feel. My best to you.

Edited June 17, 2020 by washparkhorn

[washparkhorn 9939]

33 minutes ago, trauma babe said:

Sure could go for a strong nurses union in Texas, like the fab California Nurse's Association. 

Without nurses, hospitals and doctors would grind to a halt. Thank goodness for nurses. Nothing better than hearing the kind nurses in the OR (and especially in the recovery rooms). 

Thank you TB.

[elfenix 34322]

2 hours ago, jimmyjazz said:

That "mean center" graph is interesting.  I guess Washington and California were overweighting by distance against New York early on, putting the center of "mass" somewhere near Couchburn, WV.

ny had a shit ton of cases early on.  now it's south and west of the mean center which means that the cases it's measuring are more south and west than north and east.