CR: COVID-19 --Political Talk

[Bullneck 19181]

55 minutes ago, Bama Chick said:

lol Jacksonville

 

I'll see your Jacksonville and raise you a Brazil.

[henrygandorf 29192]

43 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

This'll go well:

 

yeah, you can go get the coivd, but if i know anything about disney theme parks, it'll be fucking expensive.

[Horn Under a Bad Sign 20447]

Leave it to somebody in the Trump administration to say out loud what everyone else in the Trump administration is thinking:

 

 

[Bama Chick 28596]

Look at this bullshit dog whistling -

“Single mothers” also don’t want their kids to get sick or die or get them sick.

If Republicans actually did the bare minimum for these people they use as talking point weapons then none of this back-end half ass crap would be an issue.


I have a long list of people I’d like to punch in the face after these last four years but she’s damn near at the top.

I’d love to smack that surgically enhanced face.

[GreenspointTexas 9662]

1 hour ago, Beau Vine said:

This'll go well:

 

Today, im ashamed to be an american

- Jim Garrison “JFK”

[Dnaguy 12002]

I want kids to go to school.

If it is true that there isn’t child to adult spread, the idea that we can have maybe a full schedule for k-5 and half online / half in person 6-12 is what we should strive for.

 

that being said, the administration isn’t doing this for kids. It’s so obvious they want to just reopen everything regardless of science and regardless of how many ppl have to die. They want better economic stats so he can get re-elected. That’s it. Nothing more.

It’s so transparent and disgusting.

 

Edited July 7, 2020 by Dnaguy

[henrygandorf 29192]

11 minutes ago, Bama Chick said:

Look at this bullshit dog whistling -

 

 

 

i know the message is nauseating, but i cannot get past her grammar.  i've read it 3x and i still can't understand it.

what's a "work in job"?  also is she using overwhelm as a noun?

who took her fucking sat?

[TwiceHorn 31507]

He's advocating reopening schools because he thinks it will be popular with worn-out parents.  And make it easier for them to work.

And thus, they might vote for him.

He's grasping at straws.

[Hookah Horns 3083]

7 hours ago, Anastasis said:

 

The vax situation is a bad setup from a safety perspective in my opinion.  Bunch of companies developing novel vax technologies (not novel in the sense of COVID, novel in the sense the some of the vaccine types are unproven in humans), accelerated development timelines, unprecendented demand for rapid roll out. I don't like it at all. The vax roll out will need to be very thoughtful.    

Do you not trust clinical trials or are you thinking they'll be truncated? 

[Hookah Horns 3083]

28 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

i know the message is nauseating, but i cannot get past her grammar.  i've read it 3x and i still can't understand it.

what's a "work in job"?  also is she using overwhelm as a noun?

who took her fucking sat?

I think she meant "they work in jobs."

[Aqua Buddha 14598]

44 minutes ago, Bama Chick said:

Look at this bullshit dog whistling -

 

 

“Single mothers” also don’t want their kids to get sick or die or get them sick.

If Republicans actually did the bare minimum for these people they use as talking point weapons then none of this back-end half ass crap would be an issue.


I have a long list of people I’d like to punch in the face after these last four years but she’s damn near at the top.

I’d love to smack that surgically enhanced face.

 

This is a go to Republican move.  Ignore Problem A and misdirect to Problem B without wanting to solve problem B.

[Bama Chick 28596]

Trump already waffling on holding the Republican National Convention in Jacksonville.

They’re going to fuck around and end up with a complete disorganized disaster because they won’t go ahead and admit that the old way won’t work.

Because that would mean that they have failed.

[MC Fresh Breath 4074]

 I would normally put this in the baseball forum MLB thread, but I'm pretty sure it would somehow be poking the 'no politics' bears.

 

From the article linked:

Quote

 

It’s also, it seems, because West is something of a COVID-19 skeptic:

“I said, ‘Look, most of these people that they’re reporting are dying are not healthy to begin with. I’ve lost 25 pounds over the winter. I’m playing golf every day in the heat. I’m fine. I’m not going to back down now.’

“I don’t believe in my heart that all these deaths have been from the coronavirus. I believe it may have contributed to some of the deaths. I said, ‘I’m not going to opt out. I’m going to work. And I’m going to work until you take me off the field or I get hurt, whatever. I’m working.’”

Alrighty then.

 

 

Sounds like my idiot co-worker.  Holy shit.  The amount of these people out there is just spooky.

[HornOnTheBayou 8936]

 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

We are the worst in the world at dealing with this.  Every other country looks at the U.S. and says, “at least we’re not as fucking stupid as those people.”  An all around embarrassing disregard for human life.  That’s where I live now.  Fuck everything.

Edited July 8, 2020 by Hugo Stiglitz

[DDD Dad 14343]

3 hours ago, babysdaddy said:

I keep seeing versions of this on various threads but it does not seem to be backed up by anything.  Kids are not drivers of the spread.  https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/pediatrics/early/2020/05/22/peds.2020-004879.full.pdf

Username checks out. 

[DDD Dad 14343]

14 minutes ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

 I would normally put this in the baseball forum MLB thread, but I'm pretty sure it would somehow be poking the 'no politics' bears.

 

From the article linked:

 

Sounds like my idiot co-worker.  Holy shit.  The amount of these people out there is just spooky.

Well his judgment has always been suspect so this is no surprise. 

[Message Board User 12395]

@Bama Chick

 

[Snake Diggity 4625]

Disgraceful that we prioritize ensuring businesses can open and stay viable over schools.  Next to hospitals, safely opening schools should be the country’s top priority.  We inject $6T to keep businesses going, but we can’t find the money to quickly make the sweeping changes needed to safely open schools?  Dramatic reduction in student/adult ratio.  A deep roster of teacher assistants, substitutes, and tutors.  A consensus curriculum for online learning.  Reasonable measures to ensure sick kids/staff don’t spread (small groups, temp checks, staying in one room except for outdoor recess, etc.).  It’s doable, we just don’t have the political/financial will, and it’s a fucking disgrace.

Edited July 8, 2020 by Snake Diggity

[Cairn Horn88 8275]

Saw the following on secrant.  This is unusual for me that conservative bunch of yokels, but nice, nonetheless:

”He’s throwing a tantrum in withdrawing from WHO and blaming China and WHO for not raising more flags. That’s the worst kind of leader there is, one who can’t accept responsibility and has to find a scapegoat for criticism. That fact is , China and the world health organization are not in charge of the United States response to a pandemic. Trump administration had the intel on the virus before any of us. 

You can’t honestly tell me a country with the intelligence and extensive resources as the United States should have the highest virus rates in the world. It’s absolutely a lapse in proactive measureA from this administration. Trump didn’t read the memos on the outbreak and he didn’t address early warnings from the world health organization which Is ridiculous If you wouldn’t follow the advice of a organization that we are funding.  

I have never known of such a small person that can’t take any responsibility for the amount of power that he has, let alone the highest office in the country. Now we all have to wear masks and economy is in danger because of his serious lapses in action. FURTHER he dismantle the pandemic response team that Obama had in place. Trump is so incompetent as a leader, I would be embarrassed to say I voted for him.”

[BradInATX 9208]

1 hour ago, Bama Chick said:

Look at this bullshit dog whistling -

 

 

“Single mothers” also don’t want their kids to get sick or die or get them sick.

If Republicans actually did the bare minimum for these people they use as talking point weapons then none of this back-end half ass crap would be an issue.


I have a long list of people I’d like to punch in the face after these last four years but she’s damn near at the top.

I’d love to smack that surgically enhanced face.

 

 

You're on a roll today

[DigDug 1672]

26 minutes ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

 I would normally put this in the baseball forum MLB thread, but I'm pretty sure it would somehow be poking the 'no politics' bears.

 

From the article linked:

 

Sounds like my idiot co-worker.  Holy shit.  The amount of these people out there is just spooky.

His brain appears to be in survival mode and he only relates everything to that survival mode, a sliver of me understands that.  But Joe, if you have diabetes that you’re dealing with and someone comes up and shoots you in the chest, what did you die from?

[Chuckie Finster 22702]

 I would normally put this in the baseball forum MLB thread, but I'm pretty sure it would somehow be poking the 'no politics' bears.
 
From the article linked:

 
It’s also, it seems, because West is something of a COVID-19 skeptic:
“I said, ‘Look, most of these people that they’re reporting are dying are not healthy to begin with. I’ve lost 25 pounds over the winter. I’m playing golf every day in the heat. I’m fine. I’m not going to back down now.’
“I don’t believe in my heart that all these deaths have been from the coronavirus. I believe it may have contributed to some of the deaths. I said, ‘I’m not going to opt out. I’m going to work. And I’m going to work until you take me off the field or I get hurt, whatever. I’m working.’”
Alrighty then.
 

 
Sounds like my idiot co-worker.  Holy shit.  The amount of these people out there is just spooky.

If COVID takes out Joe West then maybe this has all been worth it.

[WBT 20622]

Bolsonaro has tested positive.  Never saw that one coming.

[Anastasis 23477]

1 hour ago, Hookah Horns said:

Do you not trust clinical trials or are you thinking they'll be truncated? 

Well generally registration trials are not powered to safety endpoints, they are powered to clinical efficacy endpoints.  From a safety perspective, the multi-phase clinical trial system is good at generating safety signals and detecting common adverse events, but is really not built to detect serious side effects that may not be as common or are clouded by background noise. I am speaking more generally than vax trials, but the same principles apply.  Many people do not appreciate that there are actually four phases to drug development and approval.  It does not stop at phase III with an initial approval.  Phase IV is post-marketing research.  It is not uncommon at all for the FDA to approval a drug conditional on certain post-marketing commitments.  These commitments may involve observational studies, registries, or other studies intended to evaluate the relationship between drug exposure and very common events such as AMI or stroke, neoplasms, etc. or any variety of various serious but rare adverse events. These PMR studies can often take many years to complete after the drug is released to the market.  Only then do we really have a comprehensive understanding of the safety profile.  I am not as familiar with how things work on the vax side, but same general limitations of the registration process apply. 

So with that general perspective, that's why I think that this is a bad setup for a safety issue. We are compressing a vax development process that typically takes 5, 10, 15+ years into 5, 10, 15+ months. Protocol are being rushed, some of the companies really do not have the expertise for this (looking at you MRNA), and there is overwhelming pressure to ramp production and roll out in mass. Layer in that we have some really neat, but novel mechanisms of action here using viral vectors to deliver viral material, DNA or RNA injections...things that are basically first in human vaccine types, and it puts me on alert.

It's a fucking pandemic, and a vax appears to be the only way out at the moment. I don't want to stoke a fire needlessly.  The vax issue and vax safety is already a toxic topic, and this line of reasoning is not intended to and should not be used to feed into an antivax narrative. So we will do what we need to do, but let's be clear eyed about it, and ensure that we have the proper surveillance systems in place to be able to quickly detect safety events when we start lining up 300MM+ people for shots. This will be an unprecedented vaccination effort and should be treated as such. That's the bottom line for me. 

[babysdaddy 2725]

C'mon man, use your head. Think about it for like, five seconds. Covid has been pretty well contained in a lot of other countries, because they have rigorous testing and tracing regimes. That means the risk of transmission in any environment is substantially lower.
We've got basically nothing, in comparison. We don't even have universal mask use in public. We've got woefully inadequate testing, and effectively no contact tracing to speak of. The risk of transmission in every environment is substantially higher here, which is obvious if you just, you know, look around. Schools in normal times are petri dishes full of germs and viruses spreading, and good luck getting children to abide by social distancing requirements. It is actively dangerous to simply look at other countries, observe that they seem to be able to have their kids go back to school safely, and just assume that it will be fine if we send kids back to schools here without getting the virus under control first.

Are you going to address the peer reviewed piece from the pediatricians or are you just going to brush it aside and say we suck and we can’t do it? Do you have kids? Our federal government and president have fucked up everything but that is irrelevant to the fact that kids are not spreading it to other kids or adults. Just read it and then you can condescendingly respond to me since that seems to be your schtick

[conVINCEd 21469]

7 minutes ago, babysdaddy said:

Are you going to address the peer reviewed piece from the pediatricians or are you just going to brush it aside and say we suck and we can’t do it? Do you have kids? Our federal government and president have fucked up everything but that is irrelevant to the fact that kids are not spreading it to other kids or adults. Just read it and then you can condescendingly respond to me since that seems to be your schtick

I married a teacher.  The first two years we were together I  was probably sicker than the rest of my life combined.  Schools are germ factories.  The data you provided is not sufficient to overcome my real world experience.

[SaucyJack 3489]

9 hours ago, BigHorn'13 said:

Completely out of context but if I have to hear about "the young people not taking this seriously" I'mma cap a boomer.

KAREN!

 

Edited July 8, 2020 by SaucyJack

[henrygandorf 29192]

2 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

We are the worst in the world at dealing with this.  Every other country looks at the U.S. and says, “at least we’re not as fucking stupid as those people.”  An all around embarrassing disregard for human life.  That’s where I live now.  Fuck everything.

i mean, you live in louisiana, right?  this should be a local call for you.

[henrygandorf 29192]

33 minutes ago, conVINCEd said:

I married a teacher.  The first two years we were together I  was probably sicker than the rest of my life combined.  Schools are germ factories.  The data you provided is not sufficient to overcome my real world experience.

one of my first conversations about covid was with my best friend since elementary school, who went off and became a doctor.  i asked him about the virus spreading slower in the summer because of the heat.  he said, "well yeah, possibly, but mostly because schools are out."

in theory, covid is even worse, because for other cold/flu types, the child is symptomatic, and ideally stays home.  a whole classroom could have covid and not even know it until the teacher, librarian, school nurse, and janitorial staff end up in the hospital.

[Bama Chick 28596]

[mention=332]Bama Chick[/mention]
 

Oh yeah - we’re turbofucked.

Our city council was supposed to vote on a face mask ordinance tonight but I haven’t even checked Facebook yet to see what happened because all the lions will be screaming about “muh rights” and other assorted nonsense.

[4th&Five 41563]

 

[conVINCEd 21469]

6 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

one of my first conversations about covid was with my best friend since elementary school, who went off and became a doctor.  i asked him about the virus spreading slower in the summer because of the heat.  he said, "well yeah, possibly, but mostly because schools are out."

in theory, covid is even worse, because for other cold/flu types, the child is symptomatic, and ideally stays home.  a whole classroom could have covid and not even know it until the teacher, librarian, school nurse, and janitorial staff end up in the hospital.

Or the kid’s grandparents, aunts, and uncles when they all get together for a holiday or birthday party.  We’ve already buried my aunt because of this shit.  I should also add that after the first couple of years of being with my wife, I built up a little immunity to the random shit that circulates around schools and wasn’t sick as much, but those first few years sucked.

[henrygandorf 29192]

3 minutes ago, 4th&Five said:

 

this is wonderful news provided your only source of news is dumbshit's twitter feed.

[staboner 4984]

1 hour ago, WBT said:

Bolsonaro has tested positive.  Never saw that one coming.

[The Royal We 3072]

The orange hate goblin might want to check out the worldometer update for the day. I swear, he has impeccable timing. 

[Bullneck 19181]

2 hours ago, Snake Diggity said:

Disgraceful that we prioritize ensuring businesses can open and stay viable over schools.  Next to hospitals, safely opening schools should be the country’s top priority.  We inject $6T to keep businesses that won't be named going, but we can’t find the money to quickly make the sweeping changes needed to safely open schools?  Dramatic reduction in student/adult ratio.  A deep roster of teacher assistants, substitutes, and tutors.  A consensus curriculum for online learning.  Reasonable measures to ensure sick kids/staff don’t spread (small groups, temp checks, staying in one room except for outdoor recess, etc.).  It’s doable, Trump and McConnell just don’t have the political/financial will, and it’s a fucking disgrace.

fixed

[Bullneck 19181]

1 hour ago, WBT said:

Bolsonaro has tested positive.  Never saw that one coming.

One down, one to go.

[SizzleChest 8284]

58 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Well generally registration trials are not powered to safety endpoints, they are powered to clinical efficacy endpoints.  From a safety perspective, the multi-phase clinical trial system is good at generating safety signals and detecting common adverse events, but is really not built to detect serious side effects that may not be as common or are clouded by background noise. I am speaking more generally than vax trials, but the same principles apply.  Many people do not appreciate that there are actually four phases to drug development and approval.  It does not stop at phase III with an initial approval.  Phase IV is post-marketing research.  It is not uncommon at all for the FDA to approval a drug conditional on certain post-marketing commitments.  These commitments may involve observational studies, registries, or other studies intended to evaluate the relationship between drug exposure and very common events such as AMI or stroke, neoplasms, etc. or any variety of various serious but rare adverse events. These PMR studies can often take many years to complete after the drug is released to the market.  Only then do we really have a comprehensive understanding of the safety profile.  I am not as familiar with how things work on the vax side, but same general limitations of the registration process apply. 

So with that general perspective, that's why I think that this is a bad setup for a safety issue. We are compressing a vax development process that typically takes 5, 10, 15+ years into 5, 10, 15+ months. Protocol are being rushed, some of the companies really do not have the expertise for this (looking at you MRNA), and there is overwhelming pressure to ramp production and roll out in mass. Layer in that we have some really neat, but novel mechanisms of action here using viral vectors to deliver viral material, DNA or RNA injections...things that are basically first in human vaccine types, and it puts me on alert.

It's a fucking pandemic, and a vax appears to be the only way out at the moment. I don't want to stoke a fire needlessly.  The vax issue and vax safety is already a toxic topic, and this line of reasoning is not intended to and should not be used to feed into an antivax narrative. So we will do what we need to do, but let's be clear eyed about it, and ensure that we have the proper surveillance systems in place to be able to quickly detect safety events when we start lining up 300MM+ people for shots. This will be an unprecedented vaccination effort and should be treated as such. That's the bottom line for me. 

I don't really disagree with any of this, but I also see the prior development of SARS vaccines (SARS-COV-1 and MERS) as a true experiential benefit, even though COVID-19 is novel and does seem kind of "engineered", but that's not been proven.

I also think that risk is also reduced in using adenoviral vectors from animals with like respiratory systems to humans, such as the Oxford vaccine which uses a chimpanzee adenoviral vectors.  This particular vaccine type has been studied pretty thoroughly.  mRNA, as you mentioned, there really is no book on it, and barely a pamphlet.

There are other measures as well, such as dose level and dose response.  One of thing that remains attractive with the Oxford vaccine from a safety perspective is that lower doses of the vaccine could render COVID-19 to more of a common cold clinical effect and symptomology.  

Given that the vaccine needs to also work in people with a range of comorbidities and varying medical conditions, a vaxx that can be delivered at a lower dose, produce neutralizing antibodies sufficient to provide a level of protection that virtually eliminates hospitalization and death from COVID-19 is a worthy goal.  People with compromised immune systems due to autoimmune disorders, cancer / cancer treatments, and various respiratory conditions will still have some risks to manage if vaccinated, but this is all part of risk / benefit assessments.

[Anastasis 23477]

12 minutes ago, SizzleChest said:

I don't really disagree with any of this, but I also see the prior development of SARS vaccines (SARS-COV-1 and MERS) as a true experiential benefit, even though COVID-19 is novel and does seem kind of "engineered", but that's not been proven.

I also think that risk is also reduced in using adenoviral vectors from animals with like respiratory systems to humans, such as the Oxford vaccine which uses a chimpanzee adenoviral vectors.  This particular vaccine type has been studied pretty thoroughly.  mRNA, as you mentioned, there really is no book on it, and barely a pamphlet.

There are other measures as well, such as dose level and dose response.  One of thing that remains attractive with the Oxford vaccine from a safety perspective is that lower doses of the vaccine could render COVID-19 to more of a common cold clinical effect and symptomology.  

Given that the vaccine needs to also work in people with a range of comorbidities and varying medical conditions, a vaxx that can be delivered at a lower dose, produce neutralizing antibodies sufficient to provide a level of protection that virtually eliminates hospitalization and death from COVID-19 is a worthy goal.  People with compromised immune systems due to autoimmune disorders, cancer / cancer treatments, and various respiratory conditions will still have some risks to manage if vaccinated, but this is all part of risk / benefit assessments.

These are all good points. I think that we see Oxford/AZ first to market, and hopefully a recombinant following along shortly thereafter.  I have no idea how to handicap the RNA/DNA approaches like Moderna's.

Re: Oxford, some people have interpreted the initial animal studies as suggesting that the Oxford vax prevented severe manifestations of COVID, but the chimps still were swabbing as COVID positive and the titers were low.  The implication being that, as you say, the vax was effective at reducing severity and would likely aid in avoiding hospitalization and everything that follows that; however, it might not be actually conferring immunity.  Which might suggest that people would still be susceptible to COVID infection, and might be able to transmit COVID.  That sounds more like a pre-exposure "therapeutic" intervention to me, rather an immunity generating vaccine. Don't want to make too much out of the early animal data, but it has been interpreted in that way.  As you point out, even if it didn't offer immunity, a proven agent that could lower mortality and hospitalization would be great. Even if it didn't move the ball as quickly towards herd immunity.  

Gonna be really interesting to see this all play out.   

[Bama Chick 28596]

I really appreciate y’all educating us about the vaccine stuff.

I think my biggest worry outside of an effective vaccine never being developed or the safety of one being rushed to market is the potential for anti-vaxxers to use anything bad that could happen for their propaganda purposes.

I am 100% pro vaccine but I’m not going to lie - thinking about injecting myself and my family with something that’s been developed in 18 months with truncated trials is scary. And I expect there to be real doctors and scientists (not the usual anti-vaxx nutter “experts”) to be booked on cable news who will speak about the dangers. And anti-vaxxers will use that for their crusade.

And, god forbid, something happens like the similarly rushed 1976 Swine Flu vaccine. Hoo boy, they’ll be on that like pigs on stink.

[SizzleChest 8284]

Anti-vaxxers typically eat up whatever shit is shoved in front of them.  Insecure.  Gullible.  Dull.

If a "vaccine" is packaged and sold as "prophylactic therapy" like people were hoarding hydroxychloroquine for in March and April, maybe that will help.  Calling something a vaccine, that already has a years long, built-in narrative and cultural stigma with nutters and imbeciles, would actually be kinda dumb.  Call it something else, push it on social media, and perhaps more will bite.

[softlynow 1816]

3 hours ago, babysdaddy said:

Are you going to address the peer reviewed piece from the pediatricians or are you just going to brush it aside and say we suck and we can’t do it? Do you have kids? Our federal government and president have fucked up everything but that is irrelevant to the fact that kids are not spreading it to other kids or adults. Just read it and then you can condescendingly respond to me since that seems to be your schtick

Are you going to address the fact that you apparently don’t read the entire piece and that it’s initial publication predated the failed Israeli school reopening experiment?

Also, are you of the wrong-headed opinion that one study, even though peer-reviewed doesn’t close the book on an issue? Why is that?

[Bama Chick 28596]

LMFAO

[washparkhorn 9939]

It's good to be the King - don't have to hobnob with the pissboys. 

[Cairn Horn88 8275]

3 hours ago, 4th&Five said:

 

Really?  How would you know?  You don’t read and you won’t listen to the experts who do know.  So, I’m not buying it!

[Cairn Horn88 8275]

58 minutes ago, Bama Chick said:

LMFAO

 

I want Danny Patrick there, in person, without a mask, rubbing elbows with everyone.  Do it for your country.

[Dnaguy 12002]

2 hours ago, Bama Chick said:

LMFAO

 

Cowards.

Address your people or cancel.

This is beyond irresponsible 

[DigDug 1672]

5 hours ago, 4th&Five said:

 

Why, why would you talk like this you sack of shit

[Bateshorn 9928]

The people starting to talk about school openings now, are the same ones that have been flogging the death rate for the last two weeks, who were talking how well the reopenings were going a month ago, who talked up hydro chloroquine two months ago.  They will always keep preaching the end of the pandemic is around the corner, get on with your lives, this is fine. 
 

When we are in hard lockdown in 6 weeks, it’ll be a new thing (Vaseline on your nostrils prevents COVID!!! Go shopping!).  It’s a transparent panic about the tidal wave building in November. 
 

 

Edited July 8, 2020 by Bateshorn