CR: COVID-19 --Political Talk

[Lurch 5931]

Ok, my bad. I was being lazy. 

[BradInATX 9208]

38 minutes ago, GRHorn said:

Which part is not supported by science? The no masks at school or attending in person at all?

I linked a joint study above by the Swedish and Finnish Public Health Agencies that suggest there’s not necessarily any improvement with keeping primary schools closed, according to a couple benchmarks. 

 

Isn't that study pretty old? I can't find a date on it but I think it's the same one I read a couple months back. It's definitely not conclusive or an end-all be-all, but it is interesting. I'd be interested to see if anyone wants to dig through it and take the opposite position and go back and forth with you. Not gonna be me, I have too much going on right now and no energy left to use. I'm basically a meme poster until we get through buying/selling a house and some other stuff.

It's also maddening that the best information we have to inform our local leaders and parents on how best to protect our children is a questionable two month old study from Scandinavia. What an absolute failure of leadership. We should be leading the research and data science on this and we are completely MIA. There just aren't enough superlatives to explain what a terrible failure we have been in that regard. America - we have the money, the resources, the science, the brain power, and the infrastructure to be leading the world through this via research and wisdom. Where the fuck are we?

We are failing our people and our children. 

Edited July 14, 2020 by BradInATX

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

1 hour ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

 

I have to be honest with you.  I use tweetdeck sporadically to get some info about various subjects (non-political usually).  I also enjoy the convenience of tweets posted that often express what I wish I could say--plenty of funny, articulate folks out there.   So I feel a bit hypocritical when I say this, but I don't trust much in the way of trends on that platform because I would be hard pressed to tell you how many unigue, non-bot, honest individuals there are out there.

You're absolutely correct, but it's entertainment for me. Scrolling through the tweets, there are loads of bots but it's still a window into the strange world wide web that we have created. This could have been a wonderful moment for science and medicine world-wide but the very characteristics that make us human give us the frailties which we deny. Such is life.

26 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

 What an absolute failure of leadership. We should be leading the research and data science on this and we are completely MIA. There just aren't enough superlatives to explain what a terrible failure we have been in that regard. America - we have the money, the resources, the science, the brain power, and the infrastructure to be leading the world through this via research and wisdom. Where the fuck are we?

We are failing our people and our children. 

Not gonna lie. I read this like you were Al Pacino talking to the headmaster, Mr. Trask at the meeting of the disciplinary committee in Scent Of A Woman.

You need a flamethrower though.

[Gil Bang 26048]

Mississippi Governor

 

[Wanker Bob 379]

39 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

 

Isn't that study pretty old? I can't find a date on it but I think it's the same one I read a couple months back. It's definitely not conclusive or an end-all be-all, but it is interesting. I'd be interested to see if anyone wants to dig through it and take the opposite position and go back and forth with you. Not gonna be me, I have too much going on right now and no energy left to use. I'm basically a meme poster until we get through buying/selling a house and some other stuff.

It's also maddening that the best information we have to inform our local leaders and parents on how best to protect our children is a questionable two month old study from Scandinavia. What an absolute failure of leadership. We should be leading the research and data science on this and we are completely MIA. There just aren't enough superlatives to explain what a terrible failure we have been in that regard. America - we have the money, the resources, the science, the brain power, and the infrastructure to be leading the world through this via research and wisdom. Where the fuck are we?

We are failing our people and our children. 

I think that was the study before Israel had single digits cases per day and opened schools fully only to see an explosion. 

[Wanker Bob 379]

8 minutes ago, Gil Bang said:

Mississippi Governor

 

Ahhh the old "let's sacrifice over a million lives, destroy our medical professionals, and potentially set up tens of million of Americans with permanent health damage" plan

Hitler would be proud. 

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

2 minutes ago, Wanker Bob said:

Ahhh the old "let's sacrifice over a million lives, destroy our medical professionals, and potentially set up tens of million of Americans with permanent health damage" plan

Hitler would be proud. 

You need to read his whole thread. It isn't like that at all.

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

 

[GRHorn 105]

55 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

 

Isn't that study pretty old? I can't find a date on it but I think it's the same one I read a couple months back. It's definitely not conclusive or an end-all be-all, but it is interesting. I'd be interested to see if anyone wants to dig through it and take the opposite position and go back and forth with you. Not gonna be me, I have too much going on right now and no energy left to use. I'm basically a meme poster until we get through buying/selling a house and some other stuff.

It's also maddening that the best information we have to inform our local leaders and parents on how best to protect our children is a questionable two month old study from Scandinavia. What an absolute failure of leadership. We should be leading the research and data science on this and we are completely MIA. There just aren't enough superlatives to explain what a terrible failure we have been in that regard. America - we have the money, the resources, the science, the brain power, and the infrastructure to be leading the world through this via research and wisdom. Where the fuck are we?

We are failing our people and our children. 

I didn’t know it was old. Not here to argue it necessarily. Thought it was an interesting data point though.
 

For me the risk/reward calculation still favors attempting in person school for kids this fall. Too much guaranteed harm to kids’ development by punting another year without trying. 

[Bama Chick 28596]

lol Cuomo is a bit of an oddball.

[Chuckie Finster 22752]

19 minutes ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

 

It pisses me off that so many of these GOP politicians are clearly nowhere as stupid as they pretend to be to score political points.  

[Aqua Buddha 14624]

1 minute ago, Chuckie Finster said:

It pisses me off that so many of these GOP politicians are clearly nowhere as stupid as they pretend to be to score political points.  

Yeah, when it comes nuttin’ time, they change.

[jimmyjazz 46225]

It's amazing that the Republican Governor of Mississippi gets it, tries to lay it out, and half the readers completely get it backwards.

[Wanker Bob 379]

30 minutes ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

You need to read his whole thread. It isn't like that at all.

I meant the herd immunity argument people 

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

3 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:

It pisses me off that so many of these GOP politicians are clearly nowhere as stupid as they pretend to be to score political points.  

It was a teeth grinder watching the Impeachment Hearings.

Now Devin Nunes, Devin is in over his head I believe. But if he just decided to channel Tim Blake Nelson as Delmar O'Donnell, then he ought to get one of the President's awards.

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

1 minute ago, Wanker Bob said:

I meant the herd immunity argument people 

Apologies. I misunderstood.

I agree, my comment is usually "You first," when anyone brings it up around me.

[RDCanecutter 26476]

3 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

It's amazing that the Republican Governor of Mississippi gets it, tries to lay it out, and half the readers completely get it backwards.

We are in a world where the Mississippi Governor is one of the smartest guys in the room.

And I'm glad we have him.

[washparkhorn 9939]

22 minutes ago, Bama Chick said:

lol Cuomo is a bit of an oddball.

I saw that graphic today when I caught part of his briefing. Thanks for linking the explanation.

It looks like a Six Flags of Texas park map mated with the murals from UFO paintings at Denver International Airport. Cuomo marches to the beat of a different drummer at times - hence the nipple rings protruding through his Brooks Bros. Oxford shirts. 

Kudos to NY for having the determination to get through the worst of it. 

[triplehorn 2664]

31 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

It looks like a Six Flags of Texas park map mated with the murals from UFO paintings at Denver International Airport. Cuomo marches to the beat of a different drummer at times - hence the nipple rings protruding through his Brooks Bros. Oxford shirts. 

 

Spoiler

 

 

[MC Fresh Breath 4074]

Quote

 

President Trump is blaming his biggest problem on his favorite enemy.

Trump held a press conference Monday where he was asked to explain why he constantly blames surging COVID-19 case counts on more testing. But he refused to acknowledge there simply are more coronavirus cases and hospitalizations out there now, instead asking why the gathered reporters weren't talking about the COVID-19 failures of the Obama administration.

"We have one of the lowest mortality rates anywhere," Trump falsely said Monday when asked how the U.S. will stop COVID-19 spread. Not only is America's coronavirus mortality rate far from the lowest in the world, it's also been deflated due to rampant testing and rising case numbers — not to mention that many people with COVID-19 face severe and debilitating illness without dying.

"Biden and Obama stopped their testing," Trump then said, referring to former President Barack Obama and former Vice President Joe Biden. "I'm sure you don't want to report it," Trump added to the reporter, which is probably true — the new coronavirus hadn't even infected a person until late 2019, well into Trump's presidency.

Trump also mistakenly said, as he often has, that the 1918 flu pandemic started in 1917.

 

https://theweek.com/speedreads-amp/925307/trump-complains-biden-obama-stopped-coronavirus-testing-even-though-didnt-exist-during-administration

 

Holy shit, America!  Look at what you have fucking done!  Look at this delusional, insane, unhinged criminal you have let loose upon the rest of us!  Holy fucking shit, every single day since 2016 I have thought he can't top the shit he said the day before.  I'm like Charlie Brown and Trump is an orange gibbon Lucy holding the football.  

Geeezus, he should be forced to be psychologically tested.  It has been said before, but he is 100% unfit.  Completely. 

[MC Fresh Breath 4074]

Quote

"Biden and Obama stopped their testing," Trump then said, referring to former President Barack Obama and former Vice President Joe Biden. "I'm sure you don't want to report it," Trump added to the reporter, which is probably true — the new coronavirus hadn't even infected a person until late 2019, well into Trump's presidency.

 

I am not sorry for double posting.  Goddamn this man.  Goddamn him.  Holy shit, pass the Tylenol.

[Neonmoon 38130]

America isn’t getting back to normal until there is an effective vaccine. Effective being the key word. There are too many people who just have to travel or go on vacation. They have been holed up for a couple months and the kids are getting restless. What do you expect people to do?

[4th&Five 41599]

 

[UpperWestside 6190]

1 hour ago, jimmyjazz said:

It's amazing that the Republican Governor of Mississippi gets it, tries to lay it out, and half the readers completely get it backwards.

Yes he laid the facts out pretty well in his explanation of why herd immunity is not possible and why no one with an IQ above potato should be claiming it will happen. This will not stop people who shun facts and data from laughing at him.

[Bama Chick 28596]

Lock him up.

[jimmyjazz 46225]

Somebody needs to lock Bob up for naming his shitty KC BBQ joint "Bob-Be-Que".

And yes, I know it's shitty.  It's in Kansas City.

[TheStoicPaisano 9939]

Caddy Dan is due back in Boys Town on 11/4.

[Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand 13588]

"The man said he had an exemption to the mask order: He then lifted up his shirt, revealing a gun in a holster on his hip."

 

This encapsulates the GOP platform. Supremacy. Hierarchy. A 2 Tiered Legal System. They don't feel the need to hide it anymore.

[Horn Under a Bad Sign 20506]

 

Paul Krugman:  How America Drank Away it's Children's Future

 

A brief history of the past four months in America:

Experts: Don’t rush to reopen, this isn’t over.

Donald Trump: LIBERATE!

Covid-19: Wheee!

Trump officials: Here’s our opposition research on Anthony Fauci.

And we’re now faced with an agonizing choice: Do we reopen schools, creating risks of a further viral explosion, or do we keep children home, with severe negative effects on their learning?

None of this had to happen. Other countries stuck with their lockdowns long enough to reduce infections to rates much lower than those prevailing here; Covid-19 death rates per capita in the European Union are only a 10th those in the United States — and falling — while ours are rising fast. As a result, they’re in a position to reopen schools fairly safely.

 

 

And the experience of the Northeast, the first major epicenter of the U.S. pandemic, shows that we could have achieved something similar here. Death rates are way down, although still higher than in Europe; on Saturday, for the first time since March, New York City reported zero Covid-19 deaths.

Would a longer lockdown have been economically sustainable? Yes.

It’s true that strong social distancing requirements led to high unemployment and hurt many businesses. But even America, with its ramshackle social safety net, was able to provide enough disaster relief — don’t call it stimulus! — to protect most of its citizens from severe hardship.

Thanks largely to expanded unemployment benefits, poverty didn’t soar during the lockdown. By some measures it may even have gone down.

True, there were holes in that safety net, and many people did suffer. But we could have patched those holes. Yes, emergency relief costs a lot of money, but we can afford it: The federal government has been borrowing huge sums, but interest rates have remained near historical lows.

Put it this way: At its most severe, the lockdown seems to have reduced G.D.P. by a little over 10 percent. During World War II, America spent more than 30 percent of G.D.P. on defense, for more than three years. Why couldn’t we absorb a much smaller cost for a few months?

 

 

So doing what was necessary to bring the coronavirus under control would have been annoying, but entirely feasible.

But that was the road not taken. Instead, many states not only rushed to reopen, they reopened stupidly. Instead of being treated as a cheap, effective way to fight contagion, face masks became a front in the culture war. Activities that posed an obvious risk of feeding the pandemic went unchecked: Large gatherings were permitted, bars reopened.

And the cost of those parties and open bars extends beyond the thousands of Americans who will be killed or suffer permanent health damage as a result of Covid-19’s resurgence. The botched reopening has also endangered something that, unlike drinking in groups, can’t be suspended without doing long-run damage: in-person education.

Some activities hold up fairly well when moved online. I suspect that there will be a lot fewer people flying cross-country to stare at PowerPoints than there were pre-Covid, even once we finally beat this virus.

Education isn’t one of those activities. We now have overwhelming confirmation of something we already suspected: For many, perhaps most students there is no substitute for actually being in a classroom.

But rooms full of students are potential Petri dishes, even if the young are less likely to die from Covid-19 than the old. Other countries have managed to reopen schools relatively safely — but they did so with much lower infection rates than currently prevail in America, and with adequate testing, which we still don’t have in many hot spots.

So we’re now facing a terrible, unnecessary dilemma. If we reopen in-person education, we risk feeding an out-of-control pandemic. If we don’t, we impair the development of millions of American students, inflicting long-term damage on their lives and careers.

 

And the reason we’re in this position is that states, cheered on by the Trump administration, rushed to allow large parties and reopen bars. In a real sense America drank away its children’s future.

Now what? At this point there are probably as many infected Americans as there were in March. So what we should be doing is admitting that we blew it, and doing a severe lockdown all over again — and this time listening to the experts before reopening. Unfortunately, it’s now too late to avoid disrupting education, but the sooner we deal with this the sooner we can get our society back on track.

But we don’t have the kind of leaders we need. Instead, we have the likes of Donald Trump and Ron DeSantis, Florida’s governor, politicians who refuse to listen to experts and never admit having been wrong.

So while there have been a few grudging policy adjustments, the main response we’re seeing to colossal policy failure is a hysterical attempt to shift the blame. Some officials are trying to blacken Dr. Fauci’s reputation; others are diving into unhinged conspiracy theories.

As a result, the outlook is grim. This pandemic is going to get worse before it gets better, and the nation will suffer permanent damage.

[Wanker Bob 379]

I think it's pretty clear at this point Europe and pretty much every developed nation will be way on the downside of this and opened back up while we're still dealing with massive numbers of infections. This disparity could possibly last months. 

What does that do to US dominance world wide? Most likely the EU and most countries will ban travel from the US and therefore their citizens won't come here either. Tourism will be devastated for a long time. Could this have a negative impact on exports? On international business dealings? Does it get so bad long enough that the US slides down the superpower ladder and the world looks more to the likes of China? 

[InkaUtexas 26169]

2 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

America isn’t getting back to normal until there is an effective vaccine. Effective being the key word. There are too many people who just have to travel or go on vacation. They have been holed up for a couple months and the kids are getting restless. What do you expect people to do?

This. I got into an argument tonight with a friend. Told her I was not going anywhere for my birthday. She wanted to invite a bunch of friends to her cousins, have a bbq, etc. Fuck it, gonna stay at home, order a nice bottle of something, smoke a joint, watch a few bad ass movies and wash my masks. 

She did not understand I have no desire to go to her cousins, hang out with her friends, who I know do not take this seriously, and add to the problem. I want the nation to open up dammit, but people need to be smart. And a lot of our fellow citizens are dumb, selfish and full of shit. 

[Hookah Horns 3083]

10 hours ago, triplehorn said:

I read the WaPo article above stemming from the positive findings in the Henry Ford study and the WaPo article ("three major randomized trials" that have found *** is not effective in treating or preventing covid-19) that is embedded with a link in the article.  I generally have a positive regard for WaPo, but the reporting here is garbage in that it lacks critical medical nuance needed to understand essential distinctions in research to date, and additionally STILL incorporates a fake study into the media reporting sausage to shape perception.  jfc.  It's also striking how medical reporting on this in the US is confined to the relative vacuum of US studies.  Internationally, there's over 50 to date with positive findings.  The 14 negative studies mentioned in the 50+ study link have something in common - late intervention/already severe cases.  That's instructive.

And anytime you have big pharma giving any oxygen whatsoever to the drug that will not be named, that tells you all you need to know about whether or not they see it as a viable and legitimate threat to their bottom line.  Like this Gilead press release from 3 days ago .  (You have to get half way through it to spot the talking point against _***).  Not to mention re-splicing data into a 14 day window to capture the favorable spin for their own product.  ignorance and greed stirred with politics is the fucking deadly cocktail people need to be aware of. 

 

 

 

 

 

Which study is fake? 

[GRHorn 105]

11 hours ago, BradInATX said:

 

Isn't that study pretty old? I can't find a date on it but I think it's the same one I read a couple months back. It's definitely not conclusive or an end-all be-all, but it is interesting. I'd be interested to see if anyone wants to dig through it and take the opposite position and go back and forth with you. Not gonna be me, I have too much going on right now and no energy left to use. I'm basically a meme poster until we get through buying/selling a house and some other stuff.

It's also maddening that the best information we have to inform our local leaders and parents on how best to protect our children is a questionable two month old study from Scandinavia. What an absolute failure of leadership. We should be leading the research and data science on this and we are completely MIA. There just aren't enough superlatives to explain what a terrible failure we have been in that regard. America - we have the money, the resources, the science, the brain power, and the infrastructure to be leading the world through this via research and wisdom. Where the fuck are we?

We are failing our people and our children. 

I get a lot of covid emails from different hospital systems. One does provide a literature review by an Infectious Disease doc a few times a week. There happened to be a summary of some of the studies out on kids and covid transmission as it relates to school. I'll spoiler it here and probably cross post in the medical discussion thread.

Spoiler

VII editorial: Part of the theme of today’s Daily Briefing revolves around the controversy how and when to reopen schools. One thing is clear, truly little is clear and there is no roadmap. The dilemma is how to minimize the spread of SARS-CoV-2 in schools while making sure students are prepared for the future. The UK’s Royal College of Pediatrics and Child Health has warned that leaving schools closed “risks scarring the life chances of a generation of young people.” The organization’s American counterpart, the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP), has urged administrators to begin from “a goal of having students physically present in school.” Keeping schools closed for prolonged periods of time has serious implications for social, academic, and child development. For many students, school serves more than just a place for academics, but also serves as a place where they can receive reliable meals and health care as well as physical and mental development. As the article below (and comment) suggests most evidence to date suggests that even if children under 12 are infected at the same rates as the adults around them, they are less likely to spread it. The experience from abroad has indicated that measures such as social distancing, masking, increasing cleaning, daily screening, hand washing, installation of physical barriers, repurposing gyms and cafeteria to increase space, and using available outdoor space can make a difference. Students with underlying medical problems should be offered full distance learning. Superintendents must also consider the safety of their teachers some who may be older and/or have underlying medial conditions. Teachers should be given necessary appropriate equipment and physical barriers in their classroom and in other common areas. Since the pandemic is unpredictable, schools need to be flexible and have several alternative plans for the coming year: traditional classroom learning, full distance learning, and a hybrid of inclassroom learning and distance learning. School may need to have staggered schedules depending on the number of students and ability to maintain social distancing at school. Implementing appropriate measures, however, will be costly and districts will need both financial and technical support. Parents need schools too. They need school to help raise their children and many parents also need to work and depend on children being in school as a safe place for them while they are at work. I agree with IDSA/HIVMA(see below) that local officials should have the discretion to tailor actions based on local conditions on the ground. This should not be political-we should adopt reasonable measures so we can open schools as safely as possible so we can meet the educational and social needs of our children. As the AAP acknowledges, the best interventions can reduce risk, but not entirely eliminate risk. Also included the today’s COVID-19 Daily Briefing an article on hold long taste and smell return after SARS-CoV-2 infection, an article on risk of PPIs and SARS-CoV-2 infection, a study on the incidence of stillbirth and preterm delivery during the pandemic, and lastly the measurement of airborne particle exposure during simulated tracheal intubation using various proposed aerosol containment devices(e.g. intubation box) during the COVID-19 pandemic.

COVID-19 in Children and the Dynamics of Infection in Families Pediatrics published online July 2020 Unlike with other viral respiratory infections, children do not seem to be a major vector of severe acute SARS-CoV-2 transmission, with most pediatric cases described inside familial clusters and no documentation of child-to-child or child-to-adult transmission. The aim of this work was to describe the clinical presentation of the first 40 pediatric cases of COVID-19 in Geneva and the dynamics of their familial clusters. From March 10 to April 10, 2020, all patients <16 years old with SARS-CoV-2 infection were identified by means of the Geneva University Hospital’s surveillance network. The network notifies the institution’s pediatric infectious diseases specialists about results of nasopharyngeal specimens tested for SARS-CoV-2 by PCR. Among a total of 4310 patients with SARS-CoV-2, 40 were <16 years old (0.9%). All but one was available for evaluation. 29 (74%) patients were previously healthy; the most frequently reported comorbidities were asthma (10%), diabetes (8%), obesity (5%), premature birth (5%), and hypertension (3%). Seven patients (18%) were hospitalized to the ward, for a median duration of 3 days (IQR: 2–4) No patient required ICU admission or SARS-CoV-2–specific therapies. The others 32 patients were managed as outpatients. All patients had a complete resolution of symptoms by day 7 after diagnosis. In 79% of households, ≥1 adult family member was suspected or confirmed for COVID-19 before symptom onset in the study child, confirming that children are infected mainly inside familial clusters. Surprisingly, in 33% of households, symptomatic household contacts (HHCs) tested negative despite belonging to a familial cluster with confirmed SARSCoV-2 cases, suggesting an underreporting of cases. In only 8% of households did a child develop symptoms before any other HHC, which is in line with previous data in which it is shown that children are index cases in <10% of SARS-CoV-2 familial clusters. Comment: The study sample may not represent the total number of pediatric SARS-CoV-2 cases during this time period since patients with milder or atypical presentation might not have sought medical attention. In addition, the recall of symptom onset among HHCs might be inaccurate, although this seems less likely because of the confinement measures and anxiety in the community. These findings are consistent with other recently published HHC investigations in China. Similarly, transmission of SARS-CoV-2 by children outside household settings seems uncommon, although information is limited. In a study from France, a 9-year-old boy with respiratory symptoms associated with picornavirus, influenza A, and SARS-CoV-2 coinfection was found to have exposed over 80 classmates at 3 schools; no secondary contacts became infected, despite numerous influenza infections within the schools, suggesting an environment conducive to respiratory virus transmission. (Clin Infect Dis published online April 11, 2020). In a publication from Australia, 9 students and 9 staff infected with SARS-CoV-2 across 15 schools had close contact with a total of 735 students and 128 staff. Only 2 secondary infections were identified, none in adult staff; 1 student in primary school was potentially infected by a staff member, and 1 student in high school was potentially infected via exposure to 2 infected schoolmates. (National Centre for Immunization Research and Surveillance; 2020) On the basis of these data, SARS-CoV-2 transmission in schools may be less important in community transmission than initially feared. This would be another manner by which SARS-CoV-2 differs drastically from influenza, for which school-based transmission is well recognized as a significant driver of epidemic disease and forms the basis for most evidence regarding school closures as public health strategy. Accumulating evidence and collective experience argue that children, particularly school-aged children, are far less important drivers of SARS-CoV-2 transmission than adults. This information should be considered in allowing schools to remain open, even during periods of COVID-19 spread.

Infectious Diseases Society of America(IDSA) and the HIV Medicine Association(HIVMA) Call for Evidence based Decisions on School Reopenings published July 10, 2020 highlights IDSA/HIVMA recognize the need to balance concerns surrounding the ongoing COVID-19 pandemic with community concerns, including the benefits of reliable nutrition, physical activity and social development that are provided by onsite education of our children. While data indicate that children are less likely to develop serious illness due to COVID-19 and to transmit the disease, instances in which children have fallen seriously ill — including with multi-system inflammatory syndrome in children (MIS-C) – and in which children have died, should raise concerns, given that much remains unknown about the dynamics of the new coronavirus. In addition, teachers, school administrators and other adults critical to school operation may be more vulnerable, due to age or conditions carrying higher risks to severe COVID-19 disease and death. Flexibility must be provided for students, teachers and staff with underlying health conditions that place them at risk for complications from COVID-19. Provisions for at-risk students should include distance learning only, and for their at-risk teachers, the option to provide only distance education. Policies for symptom screening of students and school staff, and responses in the event of student or staff member COVID-19 illness, must be in place prior to school reopening, with the understanding that those policies must be adapted to continued advances in our understanding of the virus. Recognizing that a substantial proportion of individuals who are asymptomatic may be capable of transmitting infection, adequate access to testing is also a concern. New funding for all school systems is essential, and it must be adequate to ensure safe conditions, including appropriate physical distancing, as well as sufficient quantities of masks and other personal protective equipment, hand sanitizer, and appropriate cleaning and disinfection of classrooms and surfaces in common areas, school buses and other community forms of transportation for students. In settings where remote learning remains necessary, funding is needed to support access to tablet or laptop computers and broadband in the home so that educational disruption is minimized. Sustained reductions in overall community transmission rates are critical to safe school reopening, and the use of face masks and appropriate distancing in all settings for all community members must remain paramount. No school should be forced to open in a situation that presents unacceptable risks.

 

[Captainant 27824]

8 minutes ago, GRHorn said:

I get a lot of covid emails from different hospital systems. One does provide a literature review by an Infectious Disease doc a few times a week. There happened to be a summary of some of the studies out on kids and covid transmission as it relates to school. I'll spoiler it here and probably cross post in the medical discussion thread.

  Reveal hidden contents

VII editorial: Part of the theme of today’s Daily Briefing revolves around the controversy how and when to reopen schools. One thing is clear, truly little is clear and there is no roadmap. The dilemma is how to minimize the spread of SARS-CoV-2 in schools while making sure students are prepared for the future. The UK’s Royal College of Pediatrics and Child Health has warned that leaving schools closed “risks scarring the life chances of a generation of young people.” The organization’s American counterpart, the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP), has urged administrators to begin from “a goal of having students physically present in school.” Keeping schools closed for prolonged periods of time has serious implications for social, academic, and child development. For many students, school serves more than just a place for academics, but also serves as a place where they can receive reliable meals and health care as well as physical and mental development. As the article below (and comment) suggests most evidence to date suggests that even if children under 12 are infected at the same rates as the adults around them, they are less likely to spread it. The experience from abroad has indicated that measures such as social distancing, masking, increasing cleaning, daily screening, hand washing, installation of physical barriers, repurposing gyms and cafeteria to increase space, and using available outdoor space can make a difference. Students with underlying medical problems should be offered full distance learning. Superintendents must also consider the safety of their teachers some who may be older and/or have underlying medial conditions. Teachers should be given necessary appropriate equipment and physical barriers in their classroom and in other common areas. Since the pandemic is unpredictable, schools need to be flexible and have several alternative plans for the coming year: traditional classroom learning, full distance learning, and a hybrid of inclassroom learning and distance learning. School may need to have staggered schedules depending on the number of students and ability to maintain social distancing at school. Implementing appropriate measures, however, will be costly and districts will need both financial and technical support. Parents need schools too. They need school to help raise their children and many parents also need to work and depend on children being in school as a safe place for them while they are at work. I agree with IDSA/HIVMA(see below) that local officials should have the discretion to tailor actions based on local conditions on the ground. This should not be political-we should adopt reasonable measures so we can open schools as safely as possible so we can meet the educational and social needs of our children. As the AAP acknowledges, the best interventions can reduce risk, but not entirely eliminate risk. Also included the today’s COVID-19 Daily Briefing an article on hold long taste and smell return after SARS-CoV-2 infection, an article on risk of PPIs and SARS-CoV-2 infection, a study on the incidence of stillbirth and preterm delivery during the pandemic, and lastly the measurement of airborne particle exposure during simulated tracheal intubation using various proposed aerosol containment devices(e.g. intubation box) during the COVID-19 pandemic.

COVID-19 in Children and the Dynamics of Infection in Families Pediatrics published online July 2020 Unlike with other viral respiratory infections, children do not seem to be a major vector of severe acute SARS-CoV-2 transmission, with most pediatric cases described inside familial clusters and no documentation of child-to-child or child-to-adult transmission. The aim of this work was to describe the clinical presentation of the first 40 pediatric cases of COVID-19 in Geneva and the dynamics of their familial clusters. From March 10 to April 10, 2020, all patients <16 years old with SARS-CoV-2 infection were identified by means of the Geneva University Hospital’s surveillance network. The network notifies the institution’s pediatric infectious diseases specialists about results of nasopharyngeal specimens tested for SARS-CoV-2 by PCR. Among a total of 4310 patients with SARS-CoV-2, 40 were <16 years old (0.9%). All but one was available for evaluation. 29 (74%) patients were previously healthy; the most frequently reported comorbidities were asthma (10%), diabetes (8%), obesity (5%), premature birth (5%), and hypertension (3%). Seven patients (18%) were hospitalized to the ward, for a median duration of 3 days (IQR: 2–4) No patient required ICU admission or SARS-CoV-2–specific therapies. The others 32 patients were managed as outpatients. All patients had a complete resolution of symptoms by day 7 after diagnosis. In 79% of households, ≥1 adult family member was suspected or confirmed for COVID-19 before symptom onset in the study child, confirming that children are infected mainly inside familial clusters. Surprisingly, in 33% of households, symptomatic household contacts (HHCs) tested negative despite belonging to a familial cluster with confirmed SARSCoV-2 cases, suggesting an underreporting of cases. In only 8% of households did a child develop symptoms before any other HHC, which is in line with previous data in which it is shown that children are index cases in <10% of SARS-CoV-2 familial clusters. Comment: The study sample may not represent the total number of pediatric SARS-CoV-2 cases during this time period since patients with milder or atypical presentation might not have sought medical attention. In addition, the recall of symptom onset among HHCs might be inaccurate, although this seems less likely because of the confinement measures and anxiety in the community. These findings are consistent with other recently published HHC investigations in China. Similarly, transmission of SARS-CoV-2 by children outside household settings seems uncommon, although information is limited. In a study from France, a 9-year-old boy with respiratory symptoms associated with picornavirus, influenza A, and SARS-CoV-2 coinfection was found to have exposed over 80 classmates at 3 schools; no secondary contacts became infected, despite numerous influenza infections within the schools, suggesting an environment conducive to respiratory virus transmission. (Clin Infect Dis published online April 11, 2020). In a publication from Australia, 9 students and 9 staff infected with SARS-CoV-2 across 15 schools had close contact with a total of 735 students and 128 staff. Only 2 secondary infections were identified, none in adult staff; 1 student in primary school was potentially infected by a staff member, and 1 student in high school was potentially infected via exposure to 2 infected schoolmates. (National Centre for Immunization Research and Surveillance; 2020) On the basis of these data, SARS-CoV-2 transmission in schools may be less important in community transmission than initially feared. This would be another manner by which SARS-CoV-2 differs drastically from influenza, for which school-based transmission is well recognized as a significant driver of epidemic disease and forms the basis for most evidence regarding school closures as public health strategy. Accumulating evidence and collective experience argue that children, particularly school-aged children, are far less important drivers of SARS-CoV-2 transmission than adults. This information should be considered in allowing schools to remain open, even during periods of COVID-19 spread.

Infectious Diseases Society of America(IDSA) and the HIV Medicine Association(HIVMA) Call for Evidence based Decisions on School Reopenings published July 10, 2020 highlights IDSA/HIVMA recognize the need to balance concerns surrounding the ongoing COVID-19 pandemic with community concerns, including the benefits of reliable nutrition, physical activity and social development that are provided by onsite education of our children. While data indicate that children are less likely to develop serious illness due to COVID-19 and to transmit the disease, instances in which children have fallen seriously ill — including with multi-system inflammatory syndrome in children (MIS-C) – and in which children have died, should raise concerns, given that much remains unknown about the dynamics of the new coronavirus. In addition, teachers, school administrators and other adults critical to school operation may be more vulnerable, due to age or conditions carrying higher risks to severe COVID-19 disease and death. Flexibility must be provided for students, teachers and staff with underlying health conditions that place them at risk for complications from COVID-19. Provisions for at-risk students should include distance learning only, and for their at-risk teachers, the option to provide only distance education. Policies for symptom screening of students and school staff, and responses in the event of student or staff member COVID-19 illness, must be in place prior to school reopening, with the understanding that those policies must be adapted to continued advances in our understanding of the virus. Recognizing that a substantial proportion of individuals who are asymptomatic may be capable of transmitting infection, adequate access to testing is also a concern. New funding for all school systems is essential, and it must be adequate to ensure safe conditions, including appropriate physical distancing, as well as sufficient quantities of masks and other personal protective equipment, hand sanitizer, and appropriate cleaning and disinfection of classrooms and surfaces in common areas, school buses and other community forms of transportation for students. In settings where remote learning remains necessary, funding is needed to support access to tablet or laptop computers and broadband in the home so that educational disruption is minimized. Sustained reductions in overall community transmission rates are critical to safe school reopening, and the use of face masks and appropriate distancing in all settings for all community members must remain paramount. No school should be forced to open in a situation that presents unacceptable risks.

 

Thanks for sharing the info, can you also link the underlying sources that are being summarized? I couldn't find that in your quoted text box

[GRHorn 105]

12 minutes ago, Captainant said:

Thanks for sharing the info, can you also link the underlying sources that are being summarized? I couldn't find that in your quoted text box

They aren’t directly. The sources are in parentheses in a couple locations. For the study of Swiss children it’s here. 
https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2020/07/08/peds.2020-1576

[BradInATX 9208]

I get a lot of covid emails from different hospital systems. One does provide a literature review by an Infectious Disease doc a few times a week. There happened to be a summary of some of the studies out on kids and covid transmission as it relates to school. I'll spoiler it here and probably cross post in the medical discussion thread.
Spoiler

VII editorial: Part of the theme of today’s Daily Briefing revolves around the controversy how and when to reopen schools. One thing is clear, truly little is clear and there is no roadmap. The dilemma is how to minimize the spread of SARS-CoV-2 in schools while making sure students are prepared for the future. The UK’s Royal College of Pediatrics and Child Health has warned that leaving schools closed “risks scarring the life chances of a generation of young people.” The organization’s American counterpart, the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP), has urged administrators to begin from “a goal of having students physically present in school.” Keeping schools closed for prolonged periods of time has serious implications for social, academic, and child development. For many students, school serves more than just a place for academics, but also serves as a place where they can receive reliable meals and health care as well as physical and mental development. As the article below (and comment) suggests most evidence to date suggests that even if children under 12 are infected at the same rates as the adults around them, they are less likely to spread it. The experience from abroad has indicated that measures such as social distancing, masking, increasing cleaning, daily screening, hand washing, installation of physical barriers, repurposing gyms and cafeteria to increase space, and using available outdoor space can make a difference. Students with underlying medical problems should be offered full distance learning. Superintendents must also consider the safety of their teachers some who may be older and/or have underlying medial conditions. Teachers should be given necessary appropriate equipment and physical barriers in their classroom and in other common areas. Since the pandemic is unpredictable, schools need to be flexible and have several alternative plans for the coming year: traditional classroom learning, full distance learning, and a hybrid of inclassroom learning and distance learning. School may need to have staggered schedules depending on the number of students and ability to maintain social distancing at school. Implementing appropriate measures, however, will be costly and districts will need both financial and technical support. Parents need schools too. They need school to help raise their children and many parents also need to work and depend on children being in school as a safe place for them while they are at work. I agree with IDSA/HIVMA(see below) that local officials should have the discretion to tailor actions based on local conditions on the ground. This should not be political-we should adopt reasonable measures so we can open schools as safely as possible so we can meet the educational and social needs of our children. As the AAP acknowledges, the best interventions can reduce risk, but not entirely eliminate risk. Also included the today’s COVID-19 Daily Briefing an article on hold long taste and smell return after SARS-CoV-2 infection, an article on risk of PPIs and SARS-CoV-2 infection, a study on the incidence of stillbirth and preterm delivery during the pandemic, and lastly the measurement of airborne particle exposure during simulated tracheal intubation using various proposed aerosol containment devices(e.g. intubation box) during the COVID-19 pandemic.
COVID-19 in Children and the Dynamics of Infection in Families Pediatrics published online July 2020 Unlike with other viral respiratory infections, children do not seem to be a major vector of severe acute SARS-CoV-2 transmission, with most pediatric cases described inside familial clusters and no documentation of child-to-child or child-to-adult transmission. The aim of this work was to describe the clinical presentation of the first 40 pediatric cases of COVID-19 in Geneva and the dynamics of their familial clusters. From March 10 to April 10, 2020, all patients Infectious Diseases Society of America(IDSA) and the HIV Medicine Association(HIVMA) Call for Evidence based Decisions on School Reopenings published July 10, 2020 highlights IDSA/HIVMA recognize the need to balance concerns surrounding the ongoing COVID-19 pandemic with community concerns, including the benefits of reliable nutrition, physical activity and social development that are provided by onsite education of our children. While data indicate that children are less likely to develop serious illness due to COVID-19 and to transmit the disease, instances in which children have fallen seriously ill — including with multi-system inflammatory syndrome in children (MIS-C) – and in which children have died, should raise concerns, given that much remains unknown about the dynamics of the new coronavirus. In addition, teachers, school administrators and other adults critical to school operation may be more vulnerable, due to age or conditions carrying higher risks to severe COVID-19 disease and death. Flexibility must be provided for students, teachers and staff with underlying health conditions that place them at risk for complications from COVID-19. Provisions for at-risk students should include distance learning only, and for their at-risk teachers, the option to provide only distance education. Policies for symptom screening of students and school staff, and responses in the event of student or staff member COVID-19 illness, must be in place prior to school reopening, with the understanding that those policies must be adapted to continued advances in our understanding of the virus. Recognizing that a substantial proportion of individuals who are asymptomatic may be capable of transmitting infection, adequate access to testing is also a concern. New funding for all school systems is essential, and it must be adequate to ensure safe conditions, including appropriate physical distancing, as well as sufficient quantities of masks and other personal protective equipment, hand sanitizer, and appropriate cleaning and disinfection of classrooms and surfaces in common areas, school buses and other community forms of transportation for students. In settings where remote learning remains necessary, funding is needed to support access to tablet or laptop computers and broadband in the home so that educational disruption is minimized. Sustained reductions in overall community transmission rates are critical to safe school reopening, and the use of face masks and appropriate distancing in all settings for all community members must remain paramount. No school should be forced to open in a situation that presents unacceptable risks.

 

Thanks for posting that. Definitely small sample size and some optimistic assumptions, but it's the best we've got so far.
It's difficult to reconcile this virus not being spread via kids when they're germ sponges and distributors with everything else. Hard to wrap your head around.

[maninblack 7974]

 

[Guest Lobo]

I like that in Florida, an 88.6% swing is considered only "skewed" 

Reminds me of "a tad", which in space terms is about a half million miles:

 

Edited July 14, 2020 by Lobo

[Captainant 27824]

4 minutes ago, maninblack said:

 

Isn't that worse news then? Hospitals and morgues are overflowing and they're only testing 9.4% positive. 

[Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand 13588]

Meanwhile, in Prague...

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2020/07/14/how-czech-republic-beat-covid-require-everyone-wear-face-masks-column/5426602002/

"Anyone interested in a real world case study on the extraordinary effectiveness of face masks in suppressing the spread of the coronavirus need look no farther than Prague. In this capital city of 1.3 million, among the first in Europe to decree mandatory universal mask-wearing almost four months ago, life has now returned to normal. "

 

[Guest Lobo]

So they were okay with somebody putting a Czech on their Freedoms? 

 

[crash_davis 23115]

Fucking LULZ. Mulvaney gonna Republican.

Too bad they are too fucking stupid for self awareness. Idiocy and hypocrisy know no bounds.

 

Then: It's a HOAX.

https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4857785/mick-mulvaney-calls-coronavirus-media-hoax-day

Now: I want my test results for my kids NOW!

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/13/politics/mick-mulvaney-coronavirus-testing/index.html

 

"I know it isn't popular to talk about in some Republican circles, but we still have a testing problem in this country," Mulvaney wrote. "My son was tested recently; we had to wait 5 to 7 days for results. My daughter wanted to get tested before visiting her grandparents, but was told she didn't qualify. That is simply inexcusable at this point in the pandemic."

[Irwin F Fletcher 3550]

Hey Mulvaney, Eat a bag of dicks!

[InkaUtexas 26169]

21 minutes ago, Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand said:

Meanwhile, in Prague...

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2020/07/14/how-czech-republic-beat-covid-require-everyone-wear-face-masks-column/5426602002/

"Anyone interested in a real world case study on the extraordinary effectiveness of face masks in suppressing the spread of the coronavirus need look no farther than Prague. In this capital city of 1.3 million, among the first in Europe to decree mandatory universal mask-wearing almost four months ago, life has now returned to normal. "

 

I work daily with an epidemiologist who lives in Prague. He is from Texas, based there. And yep. The sucked it up, stayed the fuck home and wore masks. Asshole was at a brewery Saturday sending me pictures. I might charge him double. 

[Brisketexan 105432]

1 minute ago, Irwin F Fletcher said:

Hey Mulvaney, Eat a bag of dicks!

Add him to the list of fuckers who need to burn in hell. His name, his family, his legacy -- all must be shit, for eternity.  Add his to the list of graves I'll tour the country to shit on.

[crash_davis 23115]

Darwin: "I'm working overtime bitches!"

 

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/florida/os-ne-florida-county-commission-coronavirus-20200713-zk5nxsjarnh2fbe6hfbgixbcym-story.html

A St. Johns County commissioner who voted against requiring the wearing of masks in the county this month is now in the hospital because of coronavirus, according to a report from Florida Politics.

The website reported that Ashley Waldron Zapata, the daughter of Commissioner Paul Waldron, posted to Facebook on Friday that he is “critical” condition with complications from COVID-19.

“The hospital is working hard to keep him comfortable and continuously monitoring him,” Zapata posted. “His blood gas levels have improved today and numbers are holding.”

Waldron was one of three people to vote against a county wide mask order, Florida Politics reported. Waldron has been on the St. Johns County Commission since 2016 and is up for re-election this year without an opponent.

[4th&Five 41599]

39 minutes ago, Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand said:

Meanwhile, in Prague...

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2020/07/14/how-czech-republic-beat-covid-require-everyone-wear-face-masks-column/5426602002/

"Anyone interested in a real world case study on the extraordinary effectiveness of face masks in suppressing the spread of the coronavirus need look no farther than Prague. In this capital city of 1.3 million, among the first in Europe to decree mandatory universal mask-wearing almost four months ago, life has now returned to normal. "

 

I’m supposed to be there right fucking now. Fuck this administration for making our passports useless. 

[MC Fresh Breath 4074]

[FondrenRoad 4378]

40 minutes ago, crash_davis said:

Fucking LULZ. Mulvaney gonna Republican.

Too bad they are too fucking stupid for self awareness. Idiocy and hypocrisy know no bounds.

 

Then: It's a HOAX.

https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4857785/mick-mulvaney-calls-coronavirus-media-hoax-day

Now: I want my test results for my kids NOW!

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/13/politics/mick-mulvaney-coronavirus-testing/index.html

 

"I know it isn't popular to talk about in some Republican circles, but we still have a testing problem in this country," Mulvaney wrote. "My son was tested recently; we had to wait 5 to 7 days for results. My daughter wanted to get tested before visiting her grandparents, but was told she didn't qualify. That is simply inexcusable at this point in the pandemic."

It is inexcusable.  "We really need to have Twinkies here," says arsonist who burned down the Twinkie factory.

He shouldn't even be allowed to get a test until every other American that wants one has already had one.

[Biff Tannen 45750]

10 hours ago, Wanker Bob said:

Does it get so bad long enough that the US slides down the superpower ladder and the world looks more to the likes of China? 

Yes