CR: COVID-19 --Political Talk

[Neonmoon 38129]

1 hour ago, Biff Tannen said:

I really can’t wrap my head around the “if we test more, we find more cases” defense. It’s illogical. It’s insane. I don’t understand how people can think it’s a good excuse. I just can’t. 

The large majority of Americans are lazy and or idiots. If you say it enough they will believe it. 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

We just got banned from the Bahamas 

[Hookah Horns 3083]

3 hours ago, kevwun said:

It's very common for the tests to not catch it in the early stages of the infection.

Yeah that goes for any virus. Takes time for the virus to replicate to detectable levels. 

[DDD Dad 14334]

I’m in New Hampshire this week. You would almost never know there was a pandemic. Rather bizarre. Maybe 50 percent mask usage.

 

Lots of Trump signs on the lake.

 

We got tested (negative) before traveling and are staying with close friends who have been distanced for at least 2 weeks.

[PsychMike 1550]

5 hours ago, Horn Under a Bad Sign said:

What a strange disease this is. Fishermen test positive despite spending 35 days at sea and testing negative before they left.

https://news.yahoo.com/coronavirus-fishermen-test-positive-despite-232641456.html

 

Did they use the Fisher's exact test? There's always something fishy about stories like this where they get the test bass ackwards.

[Bama Chick 28596]

Just ignore all the corpses!!

[Horn Under a Bad Sign 20395]

This is perhaps the best (and most depressing) article about how we fucked up and how we're destined to continue the fuckery. Everybody on this forum should read this.

 

"The fumbling of the virus was not a fluke: The American coronavirus fiasco has exposed the country’s incoherent leadership, self-defeating political polarization, a lack of investment in public health, and persistent socioeconomic and racial inequities that have left millions of people vulnerable to disease and death.

In this big, sprawling, demographically and culturally diverse nation, the decentralized political structures gave birth to patchwork policies that don’t make sense when applied to a virus that ignores state boundaries and city limits.

While other countries endured some of the same setbacks, few have suffered from all of them simultaneously and catastrophically. If there was a mistake to be made in this pandemic, America has made it.

The single biggest miscalculation was rushing to reopen the economy while the virus was still spreading at high rates through much of the country, experts say. The only way to reopen safely, epidemiologists said as far back as early April, was to “crush the curve” — to drive down the rate of viral transmission to the point that new infections were few and far between."

"The death rate from covid-19 in the United States looks like that of countries with vastly lower wealth, health-care resources and technological infrastructure."

 

"Even before the pandemic hit, local public health agencies had been decimated by years of staffing and budget cuts.

They had lost almost a quarter of their overall workforce since 2008 — a cut of almost 60,000 workers, according to national associations of health officials. The agencies’ main source of federal funding — the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s emergency preparedness budget — had been cut 30 percent since 2003.

Public health is an enterprise with an intrinsic problem: People can’t see sicknesses avoided or deaths averted.

“You don’t see the results. It’s a dog that doesn’t bark,” said David Himmelstein, professor of public health and health policy at the CUNY School of Public Health.

“The question is, does the water come out of your tap clean? Are the sewer systems being inspected? Are restaurants and food being inspected? Those things, you don’t notice until they fail,” he said."

 

"America, experts say, is approaching a tipping point at which its public health systems could become so overwhelmed they begin to collapse. Already, coronavirus test results take so long to come back they are almost useless for anything except as a historical record.

The delays have a cascading effect. Contact tracing is rendered ineffectual. Containing the virus by isolation becomes impossible. And as hospitals fill, the virus’s fatality rate could inch upward because of overtaxed ICU nurses and doctors struggling to care for so many.

But the most dangerous cascading effect could be despair — a loss of hope, along with the resolve to fight the virus, warned Michael T. Osterholm, director of the University of Minnesota’s Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy.

“When that happens, you lose the ability to act rationally. You lose the commitment to fight. You lose all chance of beating back the virus,” he said."

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/other/the-crisis-that-shocked-the-world-america-s-response-to-the-coronavirus/ar-BB16WaBS?ocid=hponeservicefeed

[relapse98 634]

12 hours ago, Lobo said:

Kind of a dick move using Freddie's likeness considering another deadly, contagious virus took him out.  

But I like the lyrical twist.  

That was also a virus that our president and government completely fucked up their response to.

Actually fits perfectly.

[washparkhorn 9939]

Quote

 

"Even before the pandemic hit, local public health agencies had been decimated by years of staffing and budget cuts.They had lost almost a quarter of their overall workforce since 2008 — a cut of almost 60,000 workers, according to national associations of health officials. The agencies’ main source of federal funding — the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s emergency preparedness budget — had been cut 30 percent since 2003.

Public health is an enterprise with an intrinsic problem: People can’t see sicknesses avoided or deaths averted.

“You don’t see the results. It’s a dog that doesn’t bark,” said David Himmelstein, professor of public health and health policy at the CUNY School of Public Health.“The question is, does the water come out of your tap clean? Are the sewer systems being inspected? Are restaurants and food being inspected?

Those things, you don’t notice until they fail,” he said."

 

That is baked into our current economic policies. We prize efficiency. We encourage breaking things. Sometimes it works. Every so often, economic black swan events appear on the horizon. You are either ready for them or you are not. You plan for them or you don't. You prevent dire effects at all costs. 

Horrible economic failure - these idiotic displays of promoting spread of a deadly disease. The world is watching and deciding whether they have found the new bogeyman. The economic effects are mitigated with mask usage.  Period. There are thousands of reasons to wear a surgical mask for the health of our economy.

Economically, we need to the country to keep working. After 9/11, the economic engine adjusted to the economic reality. After Covid, the economic engine that drives the United States forward should adjust accordingly - if working.

Masks save jobs. Jobs create profit. The engine is cycling properly only when jobs are saved and then created as the Nation moves out of this Eastern US version of the Wave. The West Coast absorbed the wave from Asia. The NY dam broke somewhere upstream after the horror show in NY. There is worry that sunny Californians are not prepared. Looks like Florida, the South, Texas and Arizona are greasing the skids as it hurls towards the sunny portions of California.

Inefficient. 

[washparkhorn 9939]

Pointed at mask patriots - not any of you, of course.

 

[washparkhorn 9939]

https://gothamist.com/arts-entertainment/we-all-want-pretend-isnt-happening-mask-free-pandemic-parties-are-popping-nyc

NY is going to sink again it appears. 

[Nivek 16923]

Neoliberalism (our economic system since the 1970's) promotes efficiency. Efficiency leads to increased profits. There is no chapter for where the system starts eating the economic structure. We saw it with Thatcher taking on workers in Britain. Reagan broke a union of air traffic controllers. And there is always Chile. 
At some point, the structure fails - to be consumed by an even more efficient structure. Sometimes it works like magic. But there should be an economic term for the moment when an  efficiency begins devouring the seed corn. We are way past that moment and towards a point of no return. 50 years of austerity for people and 50 years of profit extracted. 
This virus exposed all the social fabric torn in this nation . . . and the potential for a deep fall from our place of prominence in the world economic order - where the dollar is king.
Americans need to take this more seriously and come together. That social fabric was a safety net, not a floor.
 

The slight issue here is that there is no coming together. As the great Kyle Reece once said :

They cannot be reasoned with, they cannot be bargained with. They do not feel pity or remorse.

[Mo Horn 8832]

 

Glad we moved from Missouri to Kansas a few years ago. What an idiot. 

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

I'm weary of paying for elected officials' rather nice healthcare when they seem so ill concerned about their constituents' health.

"Oh, you'll be fine!" says the governor to the parent who has no job, no healthcare, and is looking at medical bills.

"You can recover at home!" says the governor to the person who has been evicted or dispossessed because (see above.)

[4th&Five 41525]

[Anastasis 23469]

Here's the actual article from Lancet.

https://www.thelancet.com/lancet/article/s0140-6736(20)31604-4

 

[Fudge Nuggets 19190]

20 hours ago, jimmyjazz said:

They could sell those N95 masks to the general public in a heartbeat.  That seems like a bad business move to sit on production.  I'd buy a half dozen for every adult in our house (5).

I thought the “free markets” were supposed to solve this. 

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

Quote

Glad we moved...to Kansas a few years ago. 

said no one ever.

[Pig Bellmont 8713]

24 minutes ago, 4th&Five said:

Trump will try and take credit for the development of the UK vaccine. He’s going to throw a big party 

[bolverk 29668]

17 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Here's the actual article from Lancet.

https://www.thelancet.com/lancet/article/s0140-6736(20)31604-4

 

This is good news, right?

Findings Between April 23 and May 21, 2020, 1077 participants were enrolled and assigned to receive either 
ChAdOx1 nCoV-19 (n=543) or MenACWY (n=534), ten of whom were enrolled in the non-randomised ChAdOx1 
nCoV-19 prime-boost group. Local and systemic reactions were more common in the ChAdOx1 nCoV-19 group and 
many were reduced by use of prophylactic paracetamol, including pain, feeling feverish, chills, muscle ache, headache, 
and malaise (all p<0·05). There were no serious adverse events related to ChAdOx1 nCoV-19. In the ChAdOx1 nCoV-19 
group, spike-specific T-cell responses peaked on day 14 (median 856 spot-forming cells per million peripheral blood 
mononuclear cells, IQR 493–1802; n=43). Anti-spike IgG responses rose by day 28 (median 157 ELISA units [EU], 
96–317; n=127), and were boosted following a second dose (639 EU, 360–792; n=10). Neutralising antibody responses 
against SARS-CoV-2 were detected in 32 (91%) of 35 participants after a single dose when measured in MNA80 and in 
35 (100%) participants when measured in PRNT50. After a booster dose, all participants had neutralising activity (nine of 
nine in MNA80 at day 42 and ten of ten in Marburg VN on day 56). Neutralising antibody responses correlated strongly 
with antibody levels measured by ELISA (R²=0·67 by Marburg VN; p<0·001).

[Anastasis 23469]

Just now, bolverk said:

This is good news, right?

Yeah, I think so.  Seems like we got at least 3 legit vax candidates working through the system.   

Of course, the Chinese and the Russians are already rolling out targeted vaccinations to military and industry heads. 

[bolverk 29668]

4 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Yeah, I think so.  Seems like we got at least 3 legit vax candidates working through the system.   

Of course, the Chinese and the Russians are already rolling out targeted vaccinations to military and industry heads. 

Seriously? Hadn't heard that yet.

[Anastasis 23469]

1 minute ago, bolverk said:

Seriously? Hadn't heard that yet.

Yeah, Russians are running a trial with military subjects, and there are reports that influential business and political leaders have been getting the shots.

China is already giving shots to military, and same reports regarding business and political leaders.  I'll look for some links. 

[Brisketexan 105096]

2 minutes ago, bolverk said:

Seriously? Hadn't heard that yet.

I mean, what could go wrong with injecting yourself with something that was rushed through a Russian or Chinese military lab?

[bolverk 29668]

2 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Yeah, Russians are running a trial with military subjects, and there are reports that influential business and political leaders have been getting the shots.

China is already giving shots to military, and same reports regarding business and political leaders.  I'll look for some links. 

Thanks. I'd appreciate that 

[Anastasis 23469]

Russia: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-07-20/russian-elite-got-experimental-covid-19-vaccine-from-april

China: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/16/business/china-vaccine-coronavirus.html

Excerpt from NYT behind the tags.

 

In Coronavirus Vaccine Race, China Strays From the Official Paths

Beijing is offering several vaccine candidates to employees of state-owned companies and the armed forces, while also conducting clinical trials in other countries.

 

The offer to employees at the state-owned oil giant was compelling: Be among the first in China to take a coronavirus vaccine.

The employees at PetroChina could use one of two vaccines “for emergency use” to protect themselves when working overseas as part of China’s ambitious infrastructure program, according to a copy of the notice, which was reviewed by The New York Times. They would effectively be guinea pigs for testing the unproven vaccines outside the official clinical trials.

The offer was backed by the government. It stressed that data from clinical trials showed that the products, both made by Sinopharm, were safe. It did not mention the possible side effects, or warn against the false sense of security from taking a vaccine that regulators hadn’t approved.

“I don’t think this is right ethically,” said Joan Shen, the Shanghai-based chief executive officer of the pharmaceutical firm I-Mab Biopharma.

The unorthodox move, to test people separately from the normal regulatory approval process, reflects the formidable challenge facing China as it races to develop the world’s first coronavirus vaccine.

[Red Five 40853]

36 minutes ago, bolverk said:

This is good news, right?

Findings Between April 23 and May 21, 2020, 1077 participants were enrolled and assigned to receive either 
ChAdOx1 nCoV-19 (n=543) or MenACWY (n=534), ten of whom were enrolled in the non-randomised ChAdOx1 
nCoV-19 prime-boost group. Local and systemic reactions were more common in the ChAdOx1 nCoV-19 group and 
many were reduced by use of prophylactic paracetamol, including pain, feeling feverish, chills, muscle ache, headache, 
and malaise (all p<0·05). There were no serious adverse events related to ChAdOx1 nCoV-19. In the ChAdOx1 nCoV-19 
group, spike-specific T-cell responses peaked on day 14 (median 856 spot-forming cells per million peripheral blood 
mononuclear cells, IQR 493–1802; n=43). Anti-spike IgG responses rose by day 28 (median 157 ELISA units [EU], 
96–317; n=127), and were boosted following a second dose (639 EU, 360–792; n=10). Neutralising antibody responses 
against SARS-CoV-2 were detected in 32 (91%) of 35 participants after a single dose when measured in MNA80 and in 
35 (100%) participants when measured in PRNT50. After a booster dose, all participants had neutralising activity (nine of 
nine in MNA80 at day 42 and ten of ten in Marburg VN on day 56). Neutralising antibody responses correlated strongly 
with antibody levels measured by ELISA (R²=0·67 by Marburg VN; p<0·001).

Duh.

[jimmyjazz 45900]

Did this make it into the discussion yet?   UK company claims their nebulizer treatment using "interferon beta" is considerably more effective than remdesivir.  Small double-blind study, no peer review yet.  Pretty bold claims (79% reduction in severe disease).

Synairgen interferon beta treatment

[relapse98 634]

I like that the new deflection is to focus on how since 1/1, the Covid death rate per 100k in New York is much worse than Florida, Texas, Arizona, etc.
Uhm yeah, I wonder if the doctors maybe learned something in New York that the southern states are now using to reduce the death rate.

Whatever makes you sleep better, I guess, but feels like we might be trying to hide the fact that Florida and Texas are currently a dumpster fire.

 

[FondrenRoad 4378]

48 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Yeah, Russians are running a trial with military subjects, and there are reports that influential business and political leaders have been getting the shots.

China is already giving shots to military, and same reports regarding business and political leaders.  I'll look for some links. 

In I am Legend, how long did it take for vaccinated people to become zombies?  A year or two?

[Mo Horn 8832]

1 hour ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

said no one ever.

I never in a million years thought I'd make that statement. We have a Democratic governor and House rep. Missouri had Parson, Kander, and Blunt. Moving a mile across the state line has been a good thing. 

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

2 minutes ago, Mo Horn said:

I never in a million years thought I'd make that statement. We have a Democratic governor and House rep. Missouri had Parson, Kander, and Blunt. Moving a mile across the state line has been a good thing. 

i have a theory that kansans (kansanites?) are actually cyborgs. i've never met a group of people with less personality. 

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

I disagree, (with the exception of the Koch family). Kansas has an amazing natural beauty. The sunflower fields (okay, that's agriculture and not "natural") are beautiful in bloom and in the spring, the green Flint Hills will make the sky seem so broad and blue as to go on forever. I haven't known many Kansans, but the ones I've met are friendly enough.

[4th&Five 41525]

 

[Bama Chick 28596]

Ghouls.

Republicans are straight up ghouls.

[Anastasis 23469]

31 minutes ago, 4th&Five said:

 

 

How does he keep the orange makeup from rubbing off all over the black mask?

I honestly think that that concern was the core of his push back on mask wearing. 

[kevwun 15774]

I guarantee you the whole reason he was against masks is because they fucked up his comb-over and makeup.  There is no doubt in my mind.  There are millions of people running around screaming about their freedoms because that idiot can't admit he's bald and thinks orange is a good skin tone.

Edited July 20, 2020 by kevwun

[4th&Five 41525]

Dotard will hate this. 

 

[Guest Lobo]

25 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

 

How does he keep the orange makeup from rubbing off all over the black mask?

I honestly think that that concern was the core of his push back on mask wearing. 

When I saw him get off Marine One after the Tulsa rally, you could see that orange ring of shit around his dress shirt collar now that it was fully unbuttoned.  And i realize that's why he doesn't wear a mask.  To have a ring of burnt orange grease around his shirt collar, another one around his pant waist after he take the  belt off his gut, another one formed in his  boxers from his Air Force one anal leakage.  And all his golf hats have a ring of that crap after he's done a round.  And then you add on a ring of it inside his mask after each wear.  It's gotta be a taxing effort.  I mean, it's okay for an obese 74 year old's body to have more leaks than a Trump Cabinet.  But yeah, his has got to be a different battle.  Just oozing orange makeup and orange fluids from every orifice into every garment.  That's gotta be rough. But what a strong leader he is!!!

[Grade of D as in David 13253]

11 minutes ago, Lobo said:

When I saw him get off Marine One after the Tulsa rally, you could see that orange ring of shit around his dress shirt collar now that it was fully unbuttoned.  And i realize that's why he doesn't wear a mask.  To have a ring of burnt orange grease around his shirt collar, another one around his pant waist after he take the  belt off his gut, another one formed in his  boxers from his Air Force one anal leakage.  And all his golf hats have a ring of that crap after he's done a round.  And then you add on a ring of it inside his mask after each wear.  It's gotta be a taxing effort.  I mean, it's okay for an obese 74 year old's body to have more leaks than a Trump Cabinet.  But yeah, his has got to be a different battle.  Just oozing orange makeup and orange fluids from every orifice into every garment.  That's gotta be rough. But what a strong leader he is!!!

They must go through tons of Oxiclean

[Bartles 769]

ZERO positive tests from week one in the NBA bubble, which is probably the toughest week as players could have been infected back in their home markets before arriving.

I wish people would realize sports are a shining example of how to create and execute a safe plan to return to normal. Imagine if hospitals, schools, etc. were given the resources to do this at some point during the spring/summer. Yes, it requires frequent testing which costs money and is logistically challenging.

There have been two (?) massive relief bills passed, the money has been there all along. A new relief bill might not be so badly needed today had testing been part of the plan from the start. And the Defense Protection Act has been sitting right there to create a massive testing infrastructure.

We're like the island whose population died out when their crops were destroyed by drought, because their society didn't consider fish to be edible. (That may not be a real thing but I remember reading about it.)

[4th&Five 41525]

not a lot of profit for billionaires in testing.

[FondrenRoad 4378]

1 minute ago, Bartles said:

ZERO positive tests from week one in the NBA bubble, which is probably the toughest week as players could have been infected back in their home markets before arriving.

I wish people would realize sports are a shining example of how to create and execute a safe plan to return to normal. Imagine if hospitals, schools, etc. were given the resources to do this at some point during the spring/summer. Yes, it requires frequent testing which costs money and is logistically challenging.

There have been two (?) massive relief bills passed, the money has been there all along. A new relief bill might not be so badly needed today had testing been part of the plan from the start. And the Defense Protection Act has been sitting right there to create a massive testing infrastructure.

We're like the island whose population died out when their crops were destroyed by drought, because their society didn't consider fish to be edible. (That may not be a real thing but I remember reading about it.)

The NBA bubble is an actual bubble.  It isn't really a shining example of how to do things nor is it a return to normal.  No family is allowed in the bubble until after the first round of the playoffs.  Nowhere else can emulate that because nowhere else is paying employees enough to make them consider moving into their office and live away from their families for 2 months. 

Overall though, we do need increased testing efforts, and we need social distancing and mask mandates if we want to get this under control.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

33 minutes ago, 4th&Five said:

Dotard will hate this. 

I hate this.  

Fauci should not be throwing out any pitches right now.  I'll go ahead and predict this will not age well. Disregard mass death, acquire nachos.

[ruitxn 296]

34 minutes ago, Lobo said:

When I saw him get off Marine One after the Tulsa rally, you could see that orange ring of shit around his dress shirt collar now that it was fully unbuttoned.  And i realize that's why he doesn't wear a mask.  To have a ring of burnt orange grease around his shirt collar, another one around his pant waist after he take the  belt off his gut, another one formed in his  boxers from his Air Force one anal leakage.  And all his golf hats have a ring of that crap after he's done a round.  And then you add on a ring of it inside his mask after each wear.  It's gotta be a taxing effort.  I mean, it's okay for an obese 74 year old's body to have more leaks than a Trump Cabinet.  But yeah, his has got to be a different battle.  Just oozing orange makeup and orange fluids from every orifice into every garment.  That's gotta be rough. But what a strong leader he is!!!

Orange grease, NOT burnt orange damn it.

[Hookah Horns 3083]

17 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

I hate this.  

Fauci should not be throwing out any pitches right now.  I'll go ahead and predict this will not age well. Disregard mass death, acquire nachos.

How is him throwing a ball disregarding mass death? And what else is wrong with it? And how would it not age well? 

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

I disagree with you, Hugo. The man is almost 80 years old, a lifelong baseball fan, and has received death threats, been the center of conspiracy theories, had to deal with people who think AIDS shouldn't be cured because: GAYS, and most of all: has never once booped Trump on his nose for all the crap.

If it doesn't age well, then so be it. The cheers in the stadium will be deafening. I'd say he can throw a pitch and have himself a night.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

5 minutes ago, Hookah Horns said:

How is him throwing a ball disregarding mass death? And what else is wrong with it? And how would it not age well? 

Everyone is pissed off because we still have this virus killing 1000+/day.  We can’t go anywhere, we’re banned from the Bahamas and all of Europe.  But the guy we’ve been relying on for information over the past 5 months to help fix this is throwing out a first pitch?  Seems tone deaf. 
 

maybe I’m just an asshole. 

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

No, you're not Hugo. IMO, we all know the devastation caused by this virus. We're not going to ever forget it and we certainly aren't through with it. But he's not golfing every weekend, he's throwing out a pitch at a game we weren't sure would ever be played.

 

[Hookah Horns 3083]

10 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Everyone is pissed off because we still have this virus killing 1000+/day.  We can’t go anywhere, we’re banned from the Bahamas and all of Europe.  But the guy we’ve been relying on for information over the past 5 months to help fix this is throwing out a first pitch?  Seems tone deaf. 
 

maybe I’m just an asshole. 

I guess I'm not clear on whether you're saying that he shouldn't be risking catching the virus, that he shouldn't be taking personal time away from work, that he shouldn't be honored, or...?