CR: COVID-19 --Political Talk

[Brisketexan 105,177]

1 minute ago, 4th&Five said:

The thing is.....I don't necessarily think that's wildly off-target.  As I understand, they are ramping up manufacturing even now, before final approval.  If that's done, there will be some sunk costs on some vaccines that may not be recovered, but it's absolutely how you end up with enough of what you need as soon as you can deploy it -- it's wartime manufacturing.

I mean, I'd also really LIKE it to be true.  For us to be able to go into next summer as an open society, with our citizens able to travel to other countries, and vice versa?  Yeah, that would be awesome.

[Queen Bitch 1,692]

20 minutes ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

Didn't someone post on here about it relating to Cain's final wishes or some such?

“Never... stop... owning... the libs....”

 

[Anastasis 23,480]

11 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

The thing is.....I don't necessarily think that's wildly off-target.  As I understand, they are ramping up manufacturing even now, before final approval.  If that's done, there will be some sunk costs on some vaccines that may not be recovered, but it's absolutely how you end up with enough of what you need as soon as you can deploy it -- it's wartime manufacturing.

I mean, I'd also really LIKE it to be true.  For us to be able to go into next summer as an open society, with our citizens able to travel to other countries, and vice versa?  Yeah, that would be awesome.

I agree.  Scott Gottlieb was just on CNBC as asked the question.  His perspective was an emergency use authorization for high risk group likely this year with a more broad approval late first half 2021. April may be doable, but optimistic. 

[GRHorn 105]

 

[4th&Five 41,571]

Lulz

[elfenix 34,330]

23 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

The thing is.....I don't necessarily think that's wildly off-target.  As I understand, they are ramping up manufacturing even now, before final approval.  If that's done, there will be some sunk costs on some vaccines that may not be recovered, but it's absolutely how you end up with enough of what you need as soon as you can deploy it -- it's wartime manufacturing.

I mean, I'd also really LIKE it to be true.  For us to be able to go into next summer as an open society, with our citizens able to travel to other countries, and vice versa?  Yeah, that would be awesome.

i better jump on the next $300 airfare to spain next summer that i see

[gmr548 16,590]

https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/09/bonkers-federal-podcast-downplays-covid-19-blasts-health-restrictions/
 
 

In a stunning podcast released by the Department of Health and Human Services, two top officials at the department repeatedly downplayed the COVID-19 pandemic, railed against mitigation efforts, called closures of in-person schooling “nonsense,” and said US journalists do not “[give] a damn about public health information.”

 

The podcast, released on the HHS website September 11, is part of a series hosted by Michael Caputo, who currently holds the title of HHS assistant secretary of public affairs. Though Caputo has no background in health care, the White House installed him in the department in April—a move reportedly made to assert more White House control over HHS Secretary Alex Azar. Caputo is a longtime Trump loyalist and former campaign official. He got his start as a protégé of Roger Stone and later worked as a Moscow-based advisor to Boris Yeltsin and did public relations work for Vladimir Putin.

 

Caputo has most recently made headlines for working to interfere with and alter scientific reports on COVID-19 prepared by researchers at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. The meddling was intended to make reports more in line with messaging from Trump, who has admitted to downplaying the pandemic. Caputo also raised eyebrows with a Facebook live video, reported by The New York Times Monday, in which, without evidence, he accused government scientists of engaging in “sedition” and claimed that the CDC is harboring a “resistance unit.” He also spoke of long “shadows” in his DC apartment and said left-wing “hit-squads” were preparing for armed insurrection after the election.

 
Spoiler

With his slightly more upbeat HHS podcast series, The Learning Curve, Caputo spotlights the work of HHS officials so that listeners can “learn from the people that I am learning from.” In the September 11 episode—in which he notably calls government scientists “an incredible group of experts”—Caputo spoke with Elinore McCance-Katz, head of the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration (SAMHSA), which is a branch of the HHS.
McCance-Katz, who Caputo described as “one of the angels of the department,” is a psychiatrist and holds a PhD from Yale in infectious disease epidemiology. She was the chief medical officer of SAMHSA during the Obama administration but resigned after two years saying SAMHSA wasn’t doing enough to treat people with serious mental illnesses. The Trump administration reappointed her to the agency in 2017, and she has since publicly aligned with some of Trump’s views on the pandemic.
In the podcast, Caputo and McCance-Katz’s conversation began unremarkably, with the two discussing the opioid epidemic and related HHS efforts. But about 20 minutes into the hour-long episode, the discussion shifted to criticism of stay-at-home orders and other mitigation efforts. Both Caputo and McCance-Katz suggested that stay-at-home orders were unnecessary and only exacerbated the mental toll the pandemic is having on Americans.
“Nonsense”
Though public health experts have long noted that lockdowns are indeed draconian, they also acknowledge that they’ve been necessary to curb the insidious spread of the novel coronavirus, SARS-CoV-2. Such movement restrictions and distancing measures have largely been effective at controlling outbreaks in countries worldwide—apart from in the United States, of course, which has failed spectacularly at managing the deadly pandemic.
Still, Caputo and McCance-Katz dismissed the mitigation strategy as one promoted only by rich people, who can easily manage to stay at home. “The people who say ‘It’s safer at home. Stay at home,’ tend to be people who are fairly affluent,” Caputo said.
“Yeah, it probably is safer at home for them,” McCance-Katz responded. “They go to some nice house, some big house with all the amenities.”
They went on to suggest that activities such as going to a football game or a movie theater are mainly enjoyed by people of the “lower strata of our economic system" and that is why those activities have been restricted. Meanwhile, “wealthy people with the house on the beach, they’re watching Netflix and every other streaming platform,” Caputo added. People who are essential workers, such as those who work in hospitals, “don’t have access to these subscriptions,” he said.
“And I’ll just, I’m going to say it,” McCance-Katz said soon after. “We shut down the entire country before the virus, in my opinion, had a chance to get around the entire country. Why?” The stay-at-home orders are akin to using “a sledge hammer when I think we needed a scalpel,” she added.
Caputo agreed, saying, “No doubt. And you know what? To me, the damage is done.”
Death and despair
The two go on to discuss the pandemic’s impact on children, expressing disgust that in-person learning has been suspended in many places to try to curb disease spread. “What is this nonsense that somehow it’s unsafe to return to school?” McCance-Katz asked after noting that most children infected with SARS-CoV-2 do not get seriously ill. Though moments before they noted that people in the “lower strata” often live in more crowded, multigenerational homes, they failed to discuss the risk of children passing on the virus to family members and other people in their communities.
Caputo—who, as noted, has been interfering with CDC’s scientific reports on the pandemic—moved on to blaming the US media for being “dishonest” and warping the public’s perception of the virus. He also blamed the media for “knocking the president” and “trampling” optimism over COVID-19 treatments and vaccines. “I don't think the United States media gives a damn about public health information,” he said.
“I don’t, too,” McCance-Katz responded.
Toward the end, McCance-Katz offered a lighter outlook. Though she speculated that “thousands” might die from pandemic-related despair, she argued that Americans are resilient and that “the despair will abate.”
Caputo, however, ended on a darker, confusing note. Though he had spent much of the episode downplaying the pandemic, he concluded by emphasizing the seriousness of COVID-19 and its death toll. “I find myself every morning, the first time I use my voice, I’m talking about death,” he said.
“We hear reports in our meetings... These people [with COVID-19], they drown in their own fluids,” he said. “And the doctors have told me that it is the most profound fear that one can have. And that the looks on their faces when they’re dying is just something that they can't forget. These doctors can’t forget it. And the way—and I talk—this is the first thing I talk about in the morning.”
According to a fresh report by Politico, Caputo called an emergency staff meeting Tuesday to apologize to HHS employees about his comments on the Facebook live video, in which he claimed the CDC was harboring a “resistance unit.” Some HHS staff told Politico they got the impression Caputo planned to step down.
To date, the United States has reported more than 6.5 million cases of COVID-19 and over 195,000 deaths.

 
Third world country, folks.

[4th&Five 41,571]

Just now, Anastasis said:

I agree.  Scott Gottlieb was just on CNBC as asked the question.  His perspective was an emergency use authorization for high risk group likely this year with a more broad approval late first half 2021. April may be doable, but optimistic. 

Must be what he meant when he said it would be gone by April!

[Gap03 3,308]

27 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

I agree.  Scott Gottlieb was just on CNBC as asked the question.  His perspective was an emergency use authorization for high risk group likely this year with a more broad approval late first half 2021. April may be doable, but optimistic. 

A related question is whether having enough vaccine available for everyone is going to solve the problem.  If the vaccines that are approved end up being only 50-60% effective (possible) and only 50% of people are willing to take the vaccine because of "MiCrOChiPs iN mY BlOOD!" and the Trump admin fucking over all trust in science / CDC / et al. (pretty damn likely), it will only end up slowing the spread.  In that case, we'll still be fighting through lingering community spread and the legacy of "YOU CAN'T MAKE ME WEAR A MASK!1!! Muh freedumbs!", so I question whether other countries are going to let Americans come visiting ... unless maybe Biden wins and can Jedi mindtrick the Trumptards into following a universal mask mandate.  Yeah, I'm not planning on being able to leave the country any time soon.  

[Bama Chick 28,596]

I despise anti-vaxxers and do not believe the insert chips in your body HOWEVER I would be lying if I said I’ll be lining up to get a vaccine that was rushed through with truncated safety trials.

I’m likely to wait a year or so and let some other folks be guinea pigs to make sure there’s no side effects or deadly reactions.

And I don’t imagine I’m alone in that thought.

[4th&Five 41,571]

[Mo Horn 8,852]

Fuck this administration

[Biff Tannen 45,695]

Now, now, I'm sure it was just a simple mistake and certainly not mandated from the toddler in chief.

[4th&Five 41,571]

 

[Neonmoon 38,129]

1 minute ago, 4th&Five said:

 

[4th&Five 41,571]

 

[27-25 2,047]

27 minutes ago, 4th&Five said:

 

Deep RedState?

[Gap03 3,308]

1 minute ago, 4th&Five said:

 

Just full-blown propaganda from Kudlow and Navarro these days ...

 

[GreenspointTexas 9,662]

What

a

shit

show

[Wanker Bob 379]

It's every man/woman for himself and his family in this country. 

[Okie State 3,821]

I despise anti-vaxxers and do not believe the insert chips in your body HOWEVER I would be lying if I said I’ll be lining up to get a vaccine that was rushed through with truncated safety trials.

I’m likely to wait a year or so and let some other folks be guinea pigs to make sure there’s no side effects or deadly reactions.

And I don’t imagine I’m alone in that thought.

This is pretty much everyone I know regardless of their thoughts on Covid.

[CowboyFred 1,151]

15 minutes ago, Okie State said:

On 9/19/2020 at 11:34 AM, Bama Chick said:

I despise anti-vaxxers and do not believe the insert chips in your body HOWEVER I would be lying if I said I’ll be lining up to get a vaccine that was rushed through with truncated safety trials.

I’m likely to wait a year or so and let some other folks be guinea pigs to make sure there’s no side effects or deadly reactions.

And I don’t imagine I’m alone in that thought.

This is pretty much everyone I know regardless of their thoughts on Covid.

yup.  I'll wait until politicians and the like have received theirs before I get in line for mine.  I don't mind not going out for a few months more.

[Neonmoon 38,129]

I mean technically all the front line workers, elderly, etc. will get the vaccine first so they'll be the guinea pigs, by the team us regular folks get a dose, any side effects and dangers would have already been exposed. 

[Brisketexan 105,177]

39 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

I mean technically all the front line workers, elderly, etc. will get the vaccine first so they'll be the guinea pigs, by the team us regular folks get a dose, any side effects and dangers would have already been exposed. 

Yeah, I'm thinking that will generally be the timeline.  And FWIW, so far, the mainstream vaccines we've been seeing in process aren't being rushed through development in a manner that ignores the standard phases.  There may be some emergency use authorizations for some promising candidates ahead of the normal timeframe, but in terms of general release, they look like they'll be following the right sequence.

[Pancho 44,878]

1

[4th&Five 41,571]

 

[Bama Chick 28,596]

Yeah, I'm thinking that will generally be the timeline.  And FWIW, so far, the mainstream vaccines we've been seeing in process aren't being rushed through development in a manner that ignores the standard phases.  There may be some emergency use authorizations for some promising candidates ahead of the normal timeframe, but in terms of general release, they look like they'll be following the right sequence.

Maybe so.

 

But I want details on the demographics and make up of the trial participants.

 

Are they excluding folks over a certain age?

 

Are they including people with - asthma? COPD? High blood pressure? Diabetes? Auto-Immune disorders? Cancer? What medications are they on?

 

What’s the racial make up? How many men and women? What’s the age breakdown?

 

Lots of clinical trials exclude unhealthy people for reasons spanning actual safety concerns to not wanting “sick” people to taint the results.

 

These trials need a wide variety of people in these trials - young, old, sick, healthy, black, white, hispanic, fat, thin etc.

 

Because in a perfect world, this vaccine will be for everyone. And chances are the healthy 31 year old CrossFit dude will fare better than the 67 year old sedentary woman with COPD if there is a problem with the vaccine that doesn’t manifest itself until given to a less than healthy patient.

 

And if the trial subjects lean more towards the CrossFit dude, we won’t have any idea how safe and effective this vaccine truly is until we roll the dice when the “real people” start getting injected.

[Doc Sam Beckett 5,797]

20 minutes ago, 4th&Five said:

 

 

[Planet Houston 4,930]

3 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

I mean technically all the front line workers, elderly, etc. will get the vaccine first so they'll be the guinea pigs, by the team us regular folks get a dose, any side effects and dangers would have already been exposed. 

Well, I know for a fact that Texas Medical Center is not allowing their front line workers to take a vaccine that is rushed to market and doesn’t go through Phase 3 trials. I don’t think anyone will be taking a vaccine in October. 

[Anastasis 23,480]

41 minutes ago, Bama Chick said:

Maybe so.

 

But I want details on the demographics and make up of the trial participants.

 

Are they excluding folks over a certain age?

 

Are they including people with - asthma? COPD? High blood pressure? Diabetes? Auto-Immune disorders? Cancer? What medications are they on?

 

What’s the racial make up? How many men and women? What’s the age breakdown?

 

Lots of clinical trials exclude unhealthy people for reasons spanning actual safety concerns to not wanting “sick” people to taint the results.

 

These trials need a wide variety of people in these trials - young, old, sick, healthy, black, white, hispanic, fat, thin etc.

 

Because in a perfect world, this vaccine will be for everyone. And chances are the healthy 31 year old CrossFit dude will fare better than the 67 year old sedentary woman with COPD if there is a problem with the vaccine that doesn’t manifest itself until given to a less than healthy patient.

 

And if the trial subjects lean more towards the CrossFit dude, we won’t have any idea how safe and effective this vaccine truly is until we roll the dice when the “real people” start getting injected.

The study protocols (or blueprints as the NYT insists on calling them) have all been publically posted. 

 

The safety profile, like any new vax or drug, will not be established until we have a lot of exposure.

 

That said, I would probably be willing to take one of the mrna vaccines, but wouldn't line my elementary aged kids up immediately.  That is more of an individualized risk/benefit assessment though. 

Edited September 22, 2020 by Anastasis

[Anastasis 23,480]

27 minutes ago, Planet Houston said:

Well, I know for a fact that Texas Medical Center is not allowing their front line workers to take a vaccine that is rushed to market and doesn’t go through Phase 3 trials.

They are all (PFE, MRNA, AZN) in phase 3 trials.  They have interim analysis points outlined in the protocols. I think that there will be EUA's granted if they hit the IA thresholds.  Not sure why a medical center would restrict any of their high risk employees from voluntarily consenting to vaccination.  

[HenryJames 66,134]

 

[HenryJames 66,134]

 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,367]

I have a friend that works for a defense contractor, he’s always preaching to me about the dangers of socialism with single payer healthcare and such.  The irony of his paycheck being funded almost 100% from the government is lost on him. 

Edited September 22, 2020 by Hugo Stiglitz

[Dnaguy 12,015]

1 hour ago, HenryJames said:

 

[Mo Horn 8,852]

200K dead, but there's a silver lining. 

[4th&Five 41,571]

 

[BehoId, The Underminer! 11,669]

4 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

I have a friend that works for a defense contractor, he’s always preaching to me about the dangers of socialism with single payer healthcare and such.  The irony of his paycheck being funded almost 100% from the government is lost on him. 

i think there is a easy line to draw between defense spending coming from the government and (literally) every single other type of spending.

 

here are the list of socialist countries, as defined by countries where defense spending comes from the government

1. every single one 

2. maybe not vatican city, i suppose.

[WhatTheBuck 28,794]

17 minutes ago, BehoId, The Underminer! said:

i think there is a easy line to draw between defense spending coming from the government and (literally) every single other type of spending.

 

here are the list of socialist countries, as defined by countries where defense spending comes from the government

1. every single one 

2. maybe not vatican city, i suppose.

The Vatican has a police force. 

[Bama Chick 28,596]

First of many I suspect.

[Jiggy-Z 3,433]

31 minutes ago, Bama Chick said:

First of many I suspect.

 

 

[FondrenRoad 4,378]

On 9/21/2020 at 2:06 PM, Gap03 said:

Just full-blown propaganda from Kudlow and Navarro these days ...

 

To be fair, they were always full blown propaganda. Neither have ever been truthful about anything. 

[clapclapclap 9,000]

On 9/18/2020 at 10:23 AM, hayden_horn said:

this is the problem that so many fail to grasp. it's not about you. it's not about the college football players. it's not about your mask preventing your contracting covid. 

it's about society.

none of those dead people irresponsibly attended that wedding. none. yet 7 are dead because of that event.

Seriously, I agree.  But does this standard apply to everyone, or do we make exceptions?

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2020/09/01/ruth-bader-ginsburg-officiates-couples-wedding/3453910001/

 

[FondrenRoad 4,378]

1 hour ago, BehoId, The Underminer! said:

i think there is a easy line to draw between defense spending coming from the government and (literally) every single other type of spending.

 

here are the list of socialist countries, as defined by countries where defense spending comes from the government

1. every single one 

2. maybe not vatican city, i suppose.

The amount we spend on defense is atrocious. The issue is that it is simply a self fulfilling pig trough rather than a force for actual defense. We prefer the most expensive weapon over the most effective weapon. 

We could have almost no military at all and nobody is going to invade us. All of our "defense" wars over the past century have been elsewhere. For the biggest one, we ramped up on the fly which is what normal countries that give a shit about their own citizenry do.

Vatican City does have a small force.  It is incapable of preventing invasion from Italy. Italy is incapable of preventing invasion from Germany or France. Yet all are satisfied with their defense spending.

 

Edited September 22, 2020 by FondrenRoad

[Jiggy-Z 3,433]

11 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

Vatican City does have a small force.  It is incapable of preventing invasion from Italy. Italy is incapable of preventing invasion from Germany or France. Yet all are satisfied with their defense spending.

But the Vatican has other defenses.

 

[BehoId, The Underminer! 11,669]

4 minutes ago, Jiggy-Z said:

But the Vatican has other defenses.

 

i believe that is tel aviv's defense mechanism

[Jiggy-Z 3,433]

5 minutes ago, BehoId, The Underminer! said:

i believe that is tel aviv's defense mechanism

I was going for the wrath of God angle, but I agree.

[FondrenRoad 4,378]

23 hours ago, CowboyFred said:

yup.  I'll wait until politicians and the like have received theirs before I get in line for mine.  I don't mind not going out for a few months more.

How do you know if they really received it? If Trump went on stage and injected himself, the only way I would believe it wasn't a placebo would be if I watched it every step of the way from manufacture to injection. 

[WhatTheBuck 28,794]

31 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

The amount we spend on defense is atrocious. The issue is that it is simply a self fulfilling pig trough rather than a force for actual defense. We prefer the most expensive weapon over the most effective weapon. 

We could have almost no military at all and nobody is going to invade us. All of our "defense" wars over the past century have been elsewhere. For the biggest one, we ramped up on the fly which is what normal countries that give a shit about their own citizenry do.

Vatican City does have a small force.  It is incapable of preventing invasion from Italy. Italy is incapable of preventing invasion from Germany or France. Yet all are satisfied with their defense spending.

 

[FondrenRoad 4,378]

1 minute ago, WhatTheBuck said:

They have cooler uniforms than us too.