CR: COVID-19 --Political Talk

[HenryJames 66,079]

There’s the obvious exception for front line health care workers. Wales has them in the second group. But what about essential workers? I’m considered an essential worker (which is why I only have 13,000 posts on this hellsite). It’s laughable that I should be included in a group that is prioritized over another group with a much higher mortality rate.

[BradInATX 9,208]

Just now, aggie08 said:

Honestly, we should probably give it to the super spreaders first. You know, Republicans.

They're doing fine giving themselves immunity without the vax.

[Brisketexan 105,151]

11 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

I don't think that is necessarily the best metric to use. I get where they are coming from, but I think you have to look at blend between mortality and chance of exposure. Front line healthcare workers are pretty much guaranteed to get Covid. I think your expected negative outcomes in that population given the increased exposure (and downstream effects of having sick healthcare workers) is almost certainly higher than any other group.

 

3 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

Yeah, that doesn't really make sense to me. If the healthcare workers all get it, then the olds at nursing homes are basically bubbled off from the virus without actually getting the vaccine. Healthcare workers, teachers, and other essential workers don't have the option to be bubbled off from the world. 

Not only that but if healthcare workers start getting it, it decreases quality of care across the board for everyone in ICU. 

This seems like people searching for reasons to be upset where they're not there. Healthcare workers then olds is absolutely the way to go. I'd even put retail and other essential workers ahead of the olds, but that one's not as clear-cut to me. 

Nate Silver should probably stick to being wrong about election results.

Yeah, it's not just about mortality.  It's also about the people who could most easily catch it, and most easily transmit it.  Healthcare workers being high priority is a no-brainer.  If for no other reason, then it allows them to perform their important job without being in significant fear of their job killing them.  We give cops body armor, we give firefighters protective clothing, we give soldiers vests and helmets.  Protection is important in helping people do their job with some sense of security.

So, essential folks do need to be in that mix.  Not instead of age classes, but in addition to.

[BradInATX 9,208]

Just now, HenryJames said:

There’s the obvious exception for front line health care workers. Wales has them in the second group. But what about essential workers? I’m considered an essential worker (which is why I only have 13,000 posts on this hellsite). It’s laughable that I should be included in a group that is prioritized over another group with a much higher mortality rate.

Olds have the luxury of being able to sit at home and ride it out for another few months. Retail, teachers, etc. don't have that luxury. So it's a matter of what's more important; ensuring that people who are sacrificing and risking themselves for the greater good are taken care of, or letting old folks see their grandkids and go play golf a couple  months ahead of schedule? Seems obvious to me. 

 

[HenryJames 66,079]

6 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

If the healthcare workers all get vaccinated, then the olds at nursing homes are basically bubbled off from the virus without actually getting the vaccine.

What evidence is there currently that getting the vaccine means you can’t infect others?

[Dahobbs 17,544]

2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

 

Yeah, it's not just about mortality.  It's also about the people who could most easily catch it, and most easily transmit it.  Healthcare workers being high priority is a no-brainer.  If for no other reason, then it allows them to perform their important job without being in significant fear of their job killing them.  We give cops body armor, we give firefighters protective clothing, we give soldiers vests and helmets.  Protection is important in helping people do their job with some sense of security.

So, essential folks do need to be in that mix.  Not instead of age classes, but in addition to.

Yeah, if you were to just use mortality, bubble boy would be the first person in the country to get it despite have no risk for exposure and that Covid would be around item #3,001 on the list of things that would kill him if an exposure event happened. 

[BradInATX 9,208]

11 minutes ago, HenryJames said:

What evidence is there currently that getting the vaccine means you can’t infect others?

I understand that they haven't fully proven that yet, but it's pretty unlikely that the vaccine isn't going to prevent or at least severely reduce your ability to pass the virus on to others. The recent research has shown that asymptomatic spread is not nearly as significant as believed early on, and the vaccine certainly suppresses symptoms, even if you catch the 'rona while you have it.

I mean, if it doesn't, we're pretty much fucked and this thing is going to be a serious problem forever. Or at least until morons stop believing anti-science on Facebook. So forever.

 

BTW - aren't you a doctor? Didn't you just post a picture of you in your scrubs looking like you were going to leave work and go climb a mountain and fight a dragon?

Edited December 18, 2020 by BradInATX

[Dahobbs 17,544]

1 minute ago, HenryJames said:

What evidence is there currently that getting the vaccine means you can’t infect others?

Well, that premise is literally why we do vaccinations for pretty much any disease. So, in some ways we have to believe there is at least some reduction in the ability to spread the virus. That said, the data are coming: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/08/health/covid-vaccine-mask.html

[Wanker Bob 379]

18 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

Yeah, if you were to just use mortality, bubble boy would be the first person in the country to get it despite have no risk for exposure and that Covid would be around item #3,001 on the list of things that would kill him if an exposure event happened. 

Besides, bubble boy is a dick

[GopherRock 1,765]

2 hours ago, HenryJames said:

Should we prioritize the vaccine by mortality? 

Agree that age may not be the best metric to use, but it's certainly one that can't be end-run. 

[washparkhorn 9,939]

1 hour ago, BradInATX said:

 scrubs looking like you were going to leave work and go climb a mountain and fight a dragon?

@Mo Horn is the dragon fighting health hero you are looking for (IIRC).

My thanks again to all the dragon slaying healthcare heroes out there. 

___________________________________________________________________

Interesting research coming out on aspirin therapy reducing mortality. From the study (preprint, peer-review pending):

Among COVID-19 positive Veterans:

• preexisting aspirin prescription was associated with a statistically and clinically significant decrease in overall mortality at 14-days (OR 0.38, 95% CI 0.32-0.46) and at 30-days (OR 0.38, 95% CI 0.33-0.45), cutting the odds of mortality by more than half.
• Findings demonstrated that pre-diagnosis aspirin prescription was strongly associated with decreased mortality rates for Veterans diagnosed with COVID-19.
• Prospective evaluation is required to more completely assess this correlation and its implications for patient care.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.12.13.20248147v1

***CONSULT WITH YOUR HEALTHCARE PROVIDER BEFORE STARTING ANY MEDICATION*** Seriously - don't F around with blood thinners. 

Edited December 18, 2020 by washparkhorn

[Wanker Bob 379]

There's a question about the vaccines that I have. My understanding is that the RNA vaccine is comprised of a spliced piece of the virus RNA pertaining to the spike proteins on the virus placed into some lipids that when injected cause the body to form antibodies and defenses against those spikes causing the virus to not be able to attach to the cells. Does that mean it will also protect against mutated versions of the virus as long as they use the same spike proteins to enter cells?

Would be nice if once vaccinated don't have to worry much about mutations from all the goobers not getting it and passing it around between themselves. 

Edited December 18, 2020 by Wanker Bob

[BradInATX 9,208]

There's a question about the vaccines that I have. My understanding is that the RNA vaccine is comprised of a spliced piece of the virus RNA pertaining to the spike proteins on the virus placed into some lipids that when injected cause the body to form antibodies and defenses against those spikes causing the virus to not be able to attach to the cells. Does that mean it will also protect against mutated versions of the virus as long as they use the same spike proteins to enter cells?
Would be nice if once vaccinated don't have to worry much about mutations from all the goobers not getting it and passing it around between themselves. 

My understanding is that that's the theoretical concept, but it's purely conceptual at this point. Life finds a way and all that.

[jimmyjazz 45,962]

3 hours ago, BradInATX said:

Olds have the luxury of being able to sit at home and ride it out for another few months.

Yesterday, we found out that my wife's brother, who is about as typical a Texas Baptist music minister as you could possibly imagine, has been taking my wife's parents out to dinner once or twice a week for a while now.  They are in their 90's, with failing health, including Parkinson's disease, diabetes, and a heart condition.

We had already told them they couldn't come over for Christmas dinner.  They came for Thanksgiving and we had a nice time eating outside, but Christmas weather is harder to predict and the forecast doesn't look good.  

My wife is livid.  It's just so fucking STUPID.  Her brother is going to kill one (or both) of them.  Fucking Trumpy-ass motherfucker.

[4th&Five 41,558]

They have money the brother wants?

[jimmyjazz 45,962]

Just now, 4th&Five said:

They have money the brother wants?

Good point.  Unfortunately, whatever money they do have will split (at least) 6 ways between 1 son and 5 sisters.  No pics.

[jimmyjazz 45,962]

Quote

The new Covid-19 vaccines from Pfizer and Moderna seem to be remarkably good at preventing serious illness. But it’s unclear how well they will curb the spread of the coronavirus.

That’s because the Pfizer and Moderna trials tracked only how many vaccinated people became sick with Covid-19. That leaves open the possibility that some vaccinated people get infected without developing symptoms, and could then silently transmit the virus — especially if they come in close contact with others or stop wearing masks.

Someone explain this like I'm 5 years old.  Are they trying to say the vaccine trials only assessed for symptoms?  That can't be right.  Surely they administered periodic tests to everybody in the test.  Surely that 95% number is vaccine recipients who did not contract the virus, regardless of whether they developed symptoms.  Right?

[Neonmoon 38,129]

1 hour ago, Wanker Bob said:

There's a question about the vaccines that I have. My understanding is that the RNA vaccine is comprised of a spliced piece of the virus RNA pertaining to the spike proteins on the virus placed into some lipids that when injected cause the body to form antibodies and defenses against those spikes causing the virus to not be able to attach to the cells. Does that mean it will also protect against mutated versions of the virus as long as they use the same spike proteins to enter cells?

Would be nice if once vaccinated don't have to worry much about mutations from all the goobers not getting it and passing it around between themselves. 

I just read a great Twitter thread about the science. To answer your last question, they stated if it mutates to not have this protein, the virus would then be less infectious as that was the protein that allowed it to spread so rapidly. So double bonus 

[washparkhorn 9,939]

5 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Someone explain this like I'm 5 years old.  Are they trying to say the vaccine trials only assessed for symptoms?  That can't be right.  Surely they administered periodic tests to everybody in the test.  Surely that 95% number is vaccine recipients who did not contract the virus, regardless of whether they developed symptoms.  Right?

From my limited understanding, there is a question as to whether the vaccinated could contract the disease with no symptoms and, therefore, still remain a carrier. 

But I could be dead ass wrong on the framing of the issue.

[BradInATX 9,208]

From my limited understanding, there is a question as to whether the vaccinated could contract the disease with no symptoms and, therefore, still remain a carrier. 
But I could be dead ass wrong on the framing of the issue.

What I've been reading is that spread is mostly limited to symptomatic. Which is why guidance changed recently. So even in that scenario spread would be rare. But who knows.

[Neonmoon 38,129]

12 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Someone explain this like I'm 5 years old.  Are they trying to say the vaccine trials only assessed for symptoms?  That can't be right.  Surely they administered periodic tests to everybody in the test.  Surely that 95% number is vaccine recipients who did not contract the virus, regardless of whether they developed symptoms.  Right?

I think we might not understand (especially me) how much virus one needs in their system to “contract” the virus, spread the virus, and elicit a positive test of the virus. 

[lemonlime 5,503]

16 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Someone explain this like I'm 5 years old.  Are they trying to say the vaccine trials only assessed for symptoms?  That can't be right.  Surely they administered periodic tests to everybody in the test.  Surely that 95% number is vaccine recipients who did not contract the virus, regardless of whether they developed symptoms.  Right?

My understanding, and I'm hardly a scientist, is that the vaccine doesn't actually prevent the recipient from contracting Covid.  Rather it prevents their body from reacting to the Covid infection.  And also, therefore, it's very possible that the vaccine recipient could still spread Covid to others.

[Helobious 9,454]

41 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Yesterday, we found out that my wife's brother, who is about as typical a Texas Baptist music minister as you could possibly imagine, has been taking my wife's parents out to dinner once or twice a week for a while now.  They are in their 90's, with failing health, including Parkinson's disease, diabetes, and a heart condition.

We had already told them they couldn't come over for Christmas dinner.  They came for Thanksgiving and we had a nice time eating outside, but Christmas weather is harder to predict and the forecast doesn't look good.  

My wife is livid.  It's just so fucking STUPID.  Her brother is going to kill one (or both) of them.  Fucking Trumpy-ass motherfucker.

That’s really stupid of brother in law, because covid is a very shitty way to die. But then again so is dying while locked in a room as those other ailments kill you shortly anyway. I don’t know what I would do. 90s and failing health I may want to go out living it up somewhat.

[HenryJames 66,079]

The point of entry for the virus is the through the respiratory tract. They don’t know yet whether the vaccine creates an immune response at this location or elsewhere in the body. So it’s not known whether there would be enough antibodies in the nose and mouth to prevent the virus from spreading when you exhale.

Edited December 18, 2020 by HenryJames

[elfenix 34,262]

about 115,000 currently hospitalized per covid tracking.  at $10,000 per day for hospital care that would be almost 4.9% of GDP.  that's a huge number.

[Sawbonz 27,565]

49 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Yesterday, we found out that my wife's brother, who is about as typical a Texas Baptist music minister as you could possibly imagine, has been taking my wife's parents out to dinner once or twice a week for a while now.  They are in their 90's, with failing health, including Parkinson's disease, diabetes, and a heart condition.

We had already told them they couldn't come over for Christmas dinner.  They came for Thanksgiving and we had a nice time eating outside, but Christmas weather is harder to predict and the forecast doesn't look good.  

My wife is livid.  It's just so fucking STUPID.  Her brother is going to kill one (or both) of them.  Fucking Trumpy-ass motherfucker.

I’m torn on this. If I make it to my 90’s and have my faculties I want to be free to do as I please even if said activities are risky to my health/life. I know my kids will miss me but it’s not about them

[washparkhorn 9,939]

3 minutes ago, elfenix said:

about 115,000 currently hospitalized per covid tracking.  at $10,000 per day for hospital care that would be almost 4.9% of GDP.  that's a huge number.

MMT: Hold my beer.

[Captainant 27,678]

19 minutes ago, elfenix said:

about 115,000 currently hospitalized per covid tracking.  at $10,000 per day for hospital care that would be almost 4.9% of GDP.  that's a huge number.

I wonder how much of that $10k/day actually goes into care and physician pay, and how much goes to insurance companies for doing nothing but collecting premiums

[washparkhorn 9,939]

20 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

I want to be free to do as I please even if said activities are risky to my health/life.

Hard to argue with that. 

But, there are negative externalities (associated with that decision in a pandemic (risks to healthcare workers treating you, inefficient use of public resources, and, inter alia, putting others at risk of infection if one becomes a typhoid mary)).  

Negative externalities must be reconciled or your freedom is merely a boot on another's throat.

“You are always free at the expense of someone else”

Quote

 

Sometimes, while exercising our freedom, we cross personal boundaries to interfere with the freedom of others and restrict it. That is why Camus does not propose the search for absolute freedom that can degenerate into debauchery and chaos, but advocates a sense of justice and order based on individual conscience.

“Rebellion is in no way a demand for total freedom […] It precisely discusses the unlimited power that authorizes a superior to violate the prohibited border.”

“Absolute freedom is the right for the strongest to dominate. Thus, it maintains the conflicts that benefit injustice. Absolute justice passes through the suppression of all contradictions: it destroys freedom. The revolution for justice, for freedom, ends up pitting them against each other”.

Camus was convinced that adopting the “anything goes” mentality and advocating absolute freedom would actually have the opposite effect because the strongest would end up overwhelming and dominating the weakest. The absolute freedom of some would considerably limit the freedom of others. Therefore, the search for that unlimited freedom would actually end up becoming – sooner – a repression of freedom.

 

https://psychology-spot.com/freedom-limits-philosophy-camus-albert/

 

Edited December 18, 2020 by washparkhorn

[Jive Turkey 12,604]

 

[washparkhorn 9,939]

4 minutes ago, Jive Turkey said:

 

What a fucking tool.

[TwiceHorn 31,488]

A speech doesn't block stimulus checks.  Does that mean the Senate cut them?

[BradInATX 9,208]

Yesterday, we found out that my wife's brother, who is about as typical a Texas Baptist music minister as you could possibly imagine, has been taking my wife's parents out to dinner once or twice a week for a while now.  They are in their 90's, with failing health, including Parkinson's disease, diabetes, and a heart condition.
We had already told them they couldn't come over for Christmas dinner.  They came for Thanksgiving and we had a nice time eating outside, but Christmas weather is harder to predict and the forecast doesn't look good.  
My wife is livid.  It's just so fucking STUPID.  Her brother is going to kill one (or both) of them.  Fucking Trumpy-ass motherfucker.

Man. I feel your pain there. My sister in law has their mom picking her kids up from school. MIL is 80 with extremely serious comorbidities. I get your BIL or my SIL not being overly concerned about themselves if they're healthy. But damn if it's not jaw dropping to see them putting their high risk family in danger.

To add even more to it, SIL just popped Covid positive on Tuesday.

[Sawbonz 27,565]

16 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

Hard to argue with that. 

But, there are negative externalities (associated with that decision in a pandemic (risks to healthcare workers treating you, inefficient use of public resources, and, inter alia, putting others at risk of infection if one becomes a typhoid mary)).  

Negative externalities must be reconciled or your freedom is merely a boot on another's throat.

“You are always free at the expense of someone else”

https://psychology-spot.com/freedom-limits-philosophy-camus-albert/

 

I haven’t heard of any nonagenarian superspreaders but I take your point in general

[4th&Five 41,558]

 

[BradInATX 9,208]

nonagenarian

Ok now you're just making words up

[InkaUtexas 25,951]

From the Department of State today. 

Quote

12/18/2020 02:37 PM EST

 

Michael R. Pompeo, Secretary of State

It has now been a year since China first identified a patient in Wuhan stricken with an unknown pneumonia, now known as COVID-19. Since then, the United States and other free nations, such as Germany and the United Kingdom, have led a remarkable and unprecedented vaccine development effort that is delivering hope across the world.

This is no accident. Time and again, democracies that value transparency, the rule of law, property rights, and free-market capitalism have produced innovative solutions to public health crises. Freedom unleashes human potential, and competition spurs better outcomes, at lower costs.

In contrast, authoritarian regimes control information and stifle innovation. The Chinese Communist Party punished brave Chinese scientists, doctors, and journalists who tried to alert the world to the dangers of the spreading virus, allowing a controllable outbreak to become a global pandemic.

Even today, nearly a year after the world first learned of the outbreak, the Chinese Communist Party is still spreading disinformation regarding the virus and obstructing a World Health Organization investigation into its origin and spread. It is also peddling vaccines that lack essential data on safety and efficacy, due to a fundamental disregard for transparency and accountability regarding results from clinical trials. Both actions put Chinese citizens, and the world, at risk.

Nations of the world should demand transparency from Beijing about the origin and spread of the pandemic that has led to more than one million lives lost and millions of livelihoods ruined. If they do not do so, China’s record of public-health crises makes another future pandemic originating from China depressingly likely.

https://www.state.gov/the-free-worlds-leadership-will-defeat-covid-19/

[Bama Chick 28,596]

[washparkhorn 9,939]

17 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

nonagenarian

 

7 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

Ok now you're just making words up

 

[Aqua Buddha 14,598]

Doctor in Dallas:

[Longhorn_Fan68 33,872]

strong eyebrow game

[Sbbruin 21,858]

Is it wrong that I want all of these people to die?  Because I want all of these people to die.

 

[Longhorn_Fan68 33,872]

I don't think it's wrong to want them all to die, preferably slowly and painfully

[Red Five 40,859]

I wonder what they think of things like stoplights and seat belts. 

[jimmyjazz 45,962]

Any idea if masks are mandatory there?  If so, I'd strongly consider filing charges, because fuck them.  This shit has gone on too long.

[Scheiss Meister 8,408]

Nah, fuck 'em all.

[LurkingHorn 1,066]

Moderna vaccine approved for emergency use. Let’s go!!

[Anastasis 23,474]

16 minutes ago, LurkingHorn said:

Moderna vaccine approved for emergency use. Let’s go!!

LFG. 

 

What is sad is that everyone knew this was the inevitable outcome in mid November when the data were released, and we should be on the second round for the first wave at this point. 

[LurkingHorn 1,066]

10 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

LFG. 

 

What is sad is that everyone knew this was the inevitable outcome in mid November when the data were released, and we should be on the second round for the first wave at this point. 

Yep. A colleague’s elderly parent passed away a week or so ago from covid. I can’t help but wonder what could have been. 

[JimmyJames 12,271]

19 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

LFG. 

 

What is sad is that everyone knew this was the inevitable outcome in mid November when the data were released, and we should be on the second round for the first wave at this point. 

Hard to disagree with this. Who is to blame?