CR: COVID-19 --Political Talk

[wildcat09 29354]

1 hour ago, Both Tacos said:

6 hours ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Is my sperm human and alive?

Not trying to debate about abortion/human life, just the fact that people want to be protected from the government in interfering with their body but don't have a problem when it fits their agenda. Sometimes having freedoms, such as being able to have abortions may have other consequential rights.

*Brings up abortion*

"Look I don't want to debate abortion!"

Get the fuck out of here.

[lmao 178]

20 minutes ago, SmokeyTheBear said:

It's pretty hard to trust what the Trump administration says when they were in pure reaction to whatever dumb shit he said. Forced to make things up to make what he said reality, instead of reality dictating what he said. So yes, everyone has a feeling that China fucked up and inadvertently let loose this virus, but that doesn't mean we blindly take the word of Trump without some sort of independent investigation to prove out the cause. 

So this all because we don't want to see it as win (it isn't) for Trump? I despise the guy as much as anyone else but this is dumb.

[wildcat09 29354]

40 minutes ago, slorch said:

But xenophobia…

Trump was promptly told to STFU when this was broached.  Not that he ever listened.

 

The deferential treatment of China is a fucking problem. It is NOT the China virus, remember?

Oh no, some people were critical of the weak powerless President of the United States so he didn't do his job, and that's your defense of him?

[Dahobbs 17534]

1 minute ago, lmao said:

So this all because we don't want to see it as win (it isn't) for Trump? I despise the guy as much as anyone else but this is dumb.

What this are you referring to? 

[SmokeyTheBear 5562]

4 minutes ago, lmao said:

So this all because we don't want to see it as win (it isn't) for Trump? I despise the guy as much as anyone else but this is dumb.

Uhhhh no. That was in response to the common assertion that Trump had an investigation that showed China was clearly to blame and then Biden shut down a completely above board investigation to make some political win. 

[Captainant 27669]

7 minutes ago, lmao said:

Do people spike the football on someone who didn't get the flu vaccine yet dies from the flu? This is so bizarre. I got the JJ vaccine. If someone doesn't want to get it that's their (stupid imo) decision and risk they want to take. Other than that who gives a fuck.

I for one am happy that there's one less racist neonazi in the law enforcement community. From the right wing violence thread:
 

 

[jimmyjazz 45957]

Donald J. Trump is biologically incapable of directing policy that isn't structured to produce a desired outcome.  Now, to be fair, his desired outcome changes randomly, but the idea of a legit intelligence community investigation into the source of the virus wasn't even floated by anyone in power until after January 19, 2021.

[wildcat09 29354]

3 minutes ago, Captainant said:

I for one am happy that there's one less racist neonazi in the law enforcement community. From the right wing violence thread:
 

 

As a lib, I'm feeling really fucking owned right now. I don't think I could take more nazis owning me like this.

[RomaVicta 29908]

1 hour ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

It used to be small pockets of citizens. Religious groups, homeopathic types. The Jenny McCarthy/Andrew Wakefield 'vaccines cause autism' bit created confusion for parts of the population. Social media gave anti-vax proponents a way to spread their ideology quickly across a variety of groups and the platform algorithms helped as well. In addition, there was organization by these groups to reach out to specific communities, such as the ultra Orthodox observers, etc. Pamphlets, seminars, etc. Grifters came in and began to profit by making videos, and other satellite productions. Entities that wish to take advantage of sowing division within our country also have been proven to spread the disinformation.

A part of our populace cannot be vaccinated due to immunity issues and/or allergic reactions. This part of the population relies on the vaccinated for protection. Each virus has a threshold and if more and more people opt out, the protection goes down. Plus vaccines don't work on everyone so that is a risk as well. Texas has had measles outbreaks in schools where vaccine waiver use is high. Life is a risk and always has been, but public health was designed so communities weren't laid waste due to the variables of disease.

 

At the time of 9/11, the autism anti-vaxxers were a background whisper in my awareness. I had no opinion about it.

There was an article about some post attack legislation (maybe the bill to protect insurance companies? Poor insurance companies.) that slipped in some measure pretty much killing the autism anti-vaxxers cause. I recall thinking that this was a sinister governmental shield for monied interests against the little guy.

I suspect that those anti-vaxxers were (are) sincere in their beliefs. I think science has defeated their argument since then, but I'm not sure. In short, my only awareness about anti-vaxxers was as fringe groups peddling fear rumors or small groups of persons raising legitimate questions.

It was not a movement whatsoever in my memory. I suppose abortion fits this discussion because it is another issue that shouldn't really fall along partisan lines. For the same reasons as politicizing abortion, vaccines are now a political position. It's a cynical move by wicked people who don't care whom they harm in search of power after power.

Quote

Thomas Hobbes postulates that men are driven by “a perpetual and restless desire of power after power, that ceaseth only in death.” 

These malign elements are putting the rule of law to the test. They have enormous governmental power which has been used to set aside actual law or even investigation.

When justice is gone, there's always force. Laurie Anderson, O Superman.*

 

*ok boomer. I know.

[jimmyjazz 45957]

Honest question, because I've never had any problem nor minded showing proof of vaccination for my kids:

What public entities disallow participation if kids aren't vaccinated?  I truly don't know.  Can a non-vaxxed kid attend a public school?

I remember proving my daughter had received the meningitis vaccine to UT.  I guess that's one.

[RomaVicta 29908]

1 hour ago, Neonmoon said:

The internet has weaponized stupidity 

World War I says Tally Ho! Over the top boys! There was an assassination of an archduke in Sarajevo, there's no going back now!

Huzzah! Huzzah!

Stupid fucking domino killed millions to pretty much no practical end.

[RomaVicta 29908]

1 hour ago, slorch said:

But xenophobia…

Trump was promptly told to STFU when this was broached.  Not that he ever listened.

 

The deferential treatment of China is a fucking problem. It is NOT the China virus, remember?

Gee, I don't suppose this alleged failure to investigate Covid origins would be raised to balance the stonewalling of the Jan. 6 investigations would it? Quick, boys!, we gotta generate a "both sides" argument stat!

We won't investigate Jan 6 unless we can use the same committee to investigate Antifa, Black Lives Matter, China's role in the Covid outbreak, the Bermuda Triangle, and, oh, what the hell, BENGHAZI!

What a bunch of dicks.

[WhatTheBuck 28781]

2 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

The GOP has weaponized stupidity 

Fify 

[NWBuck 8567]

17 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Honest question, because I've never had any problem nor minded showing proof of vaccination for my kids:

What public entities disallow participation if kids aren't vaccinated?  I truly don't know.  Can a non-vaxxed kid attend a public school?

I remember proving my daughter had received the meningitis vaccine to UT.  I guess that's one.

But even then there are exemptions for health and religious reasons. The Ohio Bill seeks to do what many religiously motivated legislation attempts do- force everyone to play by their rules, under the guise of "individual freedom". 

And while I currently love sky cake, I'm also struck by the irony that many of these same folks are terrified by "sharia law" and so forth.

[NWBuck 8567]

double post. Instead, here's a culturally relevant gif.

Edited May 28, 2021 by NWBuck

[RomaVicta 29908]

1 hour ago, slorch said:

Who suggested taking Trump’s word just because?  There was no investigation, independent or otherwise… or we risked upsetting China. GASP!

 

 

Negged for an obvious and knowing distortion amounting to a lie.

This suggestion that "upsetting China" blocks any action is absurd. It's best to get along with the other major powers of the world where possible than to escalate tensions. We had a team in China that Trump de-funded that may have provided insight into the origin of the disease based on science. That likely would have pointed blame at China for allowing these markets to continue to generate plagues or for a breech in their lab protocols. 

There is no one that I know of saying the Chinese do not bear responsibility. The disease started there in some likely preventable way. They kept quiet about it. I'm not reading science journals or spending nights combing the internet to find these facts. They're common knowledge.

The objection to calling it the China Virus was that it adds a useless potential slur to the discussion. We now learn the cost of that malign addition to the discussion by President Trump, whom nobody who defends his policies never admit to supporting.

You're an exception to that rule, of course.

Edited May 28, 2021 by RomaVicta

[MNLonghornFUKM 8817]

Honest question, because I've never had any problem nor minded showing proof of vaccination for my kids:
What public entities disallow participation if kids aren't vaccinated?  I truly don't know.  Can a non-vaxxed kid attend a public school?
I remember proving my daughter had received the meningitis vaccine to UT.  I guess that's one.

I’m sure public schools would adore the reality of an enrollment drop if they mandate covid vaccines for kids to attend.

[MNLonghornFUKM 8817]

Do people spike the football on someone who didn't get the flu vaccine yet dies from the flu? This is so bizarre. I got the JJ vaccine. If someone doesn't want to get it that's their (stupid imo) decision and risk they want to take. Other than that who gives a fuck.

Nobody gives a shit. My local grocery store I went to last night already removed its “vaccinated can be unmasked while unvaccinated must continue to wear them” sign they had up last week.

I expect this’ll be the trend going forward, everywhere.

[NameAlreadyInUse 5112]

17 minutes ago, MNLonghornFUKM said:

I’m sure public schools would adore the reality of an enrollment drop if they mandate covid vaccines for kids to attend.

So what's the difference between that and the other vaccines that the schools already require and that parents routinely get for their kids?  Aside from the fact that this one has been politicized in a way that it wasn't when we were doing the same thing for smallpox and rubella and measles and polio?

[Guest]

1 hour ago, wildcat09 said:

Oh no, some people were critical of the weak powerless President of the United States so he didn't do his job, and that's your defense of him?

I’m not defending him. I am describing what happened. It doesn’t require your acknowledgment. But oh no, somebody didn’t wish eternal death upon Trump so they are a Trump supporter, right?

[washparkhorn 9939]

3 hours ago, Both Tacos said:

7 hours ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Is my sperm human and alive?

Not trying to debate about abortion/human life, just the fact that people want to be protected from the government in interfering with their body but don't have a problem when it fits their agenda. Sometimes having freedoms, such as being able to have abortions may have other consequential rights.

I get it.  From NPR - libertarian ethics during a pandemic:

Quote

 

FLANIGAN: I think that there's two questions about this.

The first is, should people wear masks and stay home? And I think there, the libertarian answer is yes because libertarians believe or they should believe that people should wear masks because infecting someone with a harmful illness violates their bodily rights. Self-ownership and bodily rights are foundational to libertarianism. So masks make it less likely that people will violate these rights, so all libertarians should support mask-wearing and staying home when it's possible.

The second question is harder, though. Should the government enforce mask mandates and lockdowns? And there, the answer is more, it depends. The government should only restrict people's freedom in private spaces when it's necessary and when the benefits of enforcing it exceed the cost of enforcing it.

So some cases of preventing people from exposing other people to risks are less problematic. For example, the government enforces speed limits on public roads. But mask mandates or things like lockdowns would apply to private businesses as well. And in those cases, there's a higher burden of proof that the government would need to clear to establish that there really should be a mandate. But it's not as clear in some contexts that that burden of proof had been met.

. . . 

FLANIGAN: . . .We should really weigh the risks on both sides because on one hand, the virus is disproportionately harmful to marginalized communities. But on the other hand, expanding people's vulnerability to police power - that expansion of legal interference or the threat of law enforcement - is also going to potentially be disproportionately harmful to people who are marginalized or people who lack social power.

And so when we're making these types of risk-benefit judgments, we should consider the risks of enforcement and the discriminatory effects of law enforcement or the disproportionate harms of law enforcement alongside the disproportionate harms of the virus to communities who are more marginalized.

MARTIN: That's Jessica Flanagan, professor of bioethics at the University of Richmond and author of the book "Pharmaceutical Freedom: Why Patients Have A Right To Self Medicate."

 

https://www.npr.org/2020/07/19/892855760/bioethicist-on-libertarian-views-toward-face-mask-laws

[Captainant 27669]

2 minutes ago, slorch said:

I’m not defending him. I am describing what happened. It doesn’t require your acknowledgment. But oh no, somebody didn’t wish eternal death upon Trump so they are a Trump supporter, right?

When someone is desperate to cast blame on other people whenever trump comes up... You tend to come off as a redhat.

[Guest]

43 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

Negged for an obvious and knowing distortion amounting to a lie.

This suggestion that "upsetting China" blocks any action is absurd. It's best to get along with the other major powers of the world where possible than to escalate tensions. We had a team in China that Trump de-funded that may have provided insight into the origin of the disease based on science. That likely would have pointed blame at China for allowing these markets to continue to generate plagues or for a breech in their lab protocols. 

There is no one that I know of saying the Chinese do not bear responsibility. The disease started there in some likely preventable way. They kept quiet about it. I'm not reading science journals or spending nights combing the internet to find these facts. They're common knowledge.

The objection to calling it the China Virus was that it adds a useless potential slur to the discussion. We now learn the cost of that malign addition to the discussion by President Trump, whom nobody who defends his policies never admit to supporting.

You're an exception to that rule, of course.

Lolz.  Never change motherfucker

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Captainant said:

When someone is desperate to cast blame on other people whenever trump comes up... You tend to come off as a redhat.

No. That’s how seemingly every discussion goes in this fucking place because some people can’t differentiate between having a real discussion and yelling for their team.

Binary as fuck.

Edited May 28, 2021 by slorch

[Captainant 27669]

 

3 minutes ago, slorch said:

No. That’s how seemingly every discussion goes in this fucking place because some people can’t differentiate between having a real discussion and yelling for their team.

Anti-trump is being pro-democracy. Are you pro or anti-democracy?

[Sawbonz 27562]

8 hours ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Is my sperm human and alive?

No

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

In one page we've covered *checks notes* WWI and the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand by Gavrilo Princip, vaccine reluctance, legislation surrounding vaccine requirements, abortion, masks usage, sperm viability, fascism, Trump, China, and who is blaming who/responsible for the global pandemic and handling thereof.

 

What a Friday. When all three COVID threads do this simultaneously heads are going to explode.

[WhatTheBuck 28781]

3 hours ago, Francisco 2.0 said:

Forget Covid.  Ohio lawmakers want to abolish all vaccine requirements:

https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/05/ohio-lawmakers-want-to-abolish-vaccine-requirements-all-vaccine-requirements/

 

 

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

K-12 schools in Ohio have allowed for vaccine requirement exemptions based on “reasons of conscience,” but they have required written statements—not just verbal declarations.

That would change under HB 248. Also, universities and day cares could no longer require students to have vaccinations, which prevent outbreaks of deadly diseases and protect children and adolescents who are medically unable to be vaccinated or are immunocompromised from being exposed to deadly diseases. Employers, including hospitals and health care facilities, would not be able to require vaccinations for their workers. This could potentially make workplaces unsafe from preventable infectious disease outbreaks and place any medically vulnerable person at high risk. And businesses would not be able ask unvaccinated employees, customers, or clients to wear masks or take other measures to prevent the spread of disease—even if there were high-risk individuals present, like cancer survivors and people who have compromised immune systems.

This is, by all accounts, a step backward in efforts to protect public health.

State Rep. Beth Liston (D-Dublin) blasted the bill, telling The Columbus Dispatch, “Not only would it prevent schools, businesses and communities from putting safety measures in place related to COVID, it will impact the health of our children... This bill applies to all vaccines—polio, measles, meningitis, etc. If it becomes law we will see worsening measles outbreaks, meningitis in the dorms, and children once again suffering from polio.”

The Dispatch reported that 50 business associations, health care groups, and hospitals sent a letter to the House Health Committee this week, also objecting to the bill.

“At its core, this proposal would destroy our current public health framework that prevents outbreaks of potentially lethal diseases, threatens the stability of our economy as it recovers from a devastating pandemic and jeopardizes the way we live, learn, work and celebrate life,” the letter said.

The Ohio Association of Health Plans, which represents health insurers in the state, issued a similar statement Tuesday, according to the Ohio Capital Journal.

“HB 248 would put all Ohioans at risk while increasing the cost of health care for families, individuals and businesses,” spokesperson Dan Williamson said. “This proposal applies to all immunizations, including childhood vaccines. If passed, this legislation could reverse decades of immunity from life-threatening, but vaccine-preventable diseases such as measles, mumps, hepatitis, meningitis and tuberculosis.”

 

 

I’m no fan of Mike DeWine but he won’t let that happen. 

[MNLonghornFUKM 8817]

So what's the difference between that and the other vaccines that the schools already require and that parents routinely get for their kids?  Aside from the fact that this one has been politicized in a way that it wasn't when we were doing the same thing for smallpox and rubella and measles and polio?

Are the required others much more harmful than the the politicized one to kids? Flu shots aren’t required and that’s deadlier to kids.

[WhatTheBuck 28781]

28 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

No

Bullshit. 

[Sawbonz 27562]

Just now, WhatTheBuck said:

Bullshit. 

Walk me through the science 

[lmao 178]

1 hour ago, Captainant said:

I for one am happy that there's one less racist neonazi in the law enforcement community. From the right wing violence thread:
 

 

Nordic-Hispanic??

[Willfully Horn 8017]

4 hours ago, lmao said:

Do people spike the football on someone who didn't get the flu vaccine yet dies from the flu?

When they go on social media, use their fucking police badge as a symbol of immunity (which I read as extending far beyond the virus,) suggesting that vaccines aren’t the way to serve and protect others, and then die from Covid?

Yeah, they deserve to be made an example of bad decisions. The phrase “spiking the football” suits your agenda. You’re up to much the same thing: using his death to tell a narrative. Your tale is to sow division. Mine is to get people vaccinated. Which serves others.

Edited May 28, 2021 by Willfully Horn
Embarrassed

[WhatTheBuck 28781]

2 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

Walk me through the science 

Is it non-human and dead?

[Sawbonz 27562]

1 minute ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Is it non-human and dead?

Explain how it meets the definition of human and what characteristic functions of a living organism it can perform

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

4 minutes ago, lmao said:

Nordic-Hispanic??

Pretty much the norm for extremist groups in that initial radicalization requires numbers so they aren't as fussy until they gain momentum and power. Then things begin to distill a little bit. One starts rooting out 'impure' members through whatever rules are enacted. In a general sense, it's all over history. America has gone back and forth with in groups and out groups in that regard. (Italians were not considered 'white' and so on.)

 

OK, I'm done there, this part of the discussion is a large derail and should return to the extremist thread.

[WhatTheBuck 28781]

4 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

Explain how it meets the definition of human and what characteristic functions of a living organism it can perform

Don’t confuse “human” with “person.”

Explain to me why it’s not alive. 

[Sawbonz 27562]

2 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Don’t confuse “human” with “person.”

Explain to me why it’s not alive. 

Explain to me how it is

And if you are using human as an adjective in the sense the shit I took is human I agree. You seem to be implying more though

[RomaVicta 29908]

21 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

Walk me through the science 

Here's picture of my sperm right before launch. 

Spermicide is murder!

[WhatTheBuck 28781]

15 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

Explain to me how it is

And if you are using human as an adjective in the sense the shit I took is human I agree. You seem to be implying more though

If it’s not genetically human then what is it? If it’s not alive then what is it?

Could my dead sperm be used to sire, say, a cactus? Or a longhorn steer? Genetically it’s human and if it wasn’t alive it couldn’t swim its way to fertilize a human egg cell and produce a human offspring which the mother would have every right to terminate while it was still a microscopic speck of goo.

Edit: Or something after six weeks the size of your thumbnail that more closely resembles a shrimp than a human being. 

Edited May 28, 2021 by WhatTheBuck

[Sawbonz 27562]

2 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

If it’s not genetically human then what is it? If it’s not alive then what is it?

Could my dead sperm be used to sire, say, a cactus? Or a longhorn steer? Genetically it’s human and if it wasn’t alive it couldn’t swim its way to fertilize a human egg cell and produce a human offspring which the mother would have every right to terminate while it was still a microscopic speck of goo. 

Did you pass high school biology? 

[jimmyjazz 45957]

Prick your finger.  Is that drop of blood "human"?  It's genetically human.  It has function.  Among other things, it carries oxygen to your organs.

Is there a difference between blood cells and sperm cells?  Hell, at least all (or most) of our blood cells do some good.  Half a trillion sperm cells are utterly wasted by the average male over his lifetime.

[WhatTheBuck 28781]

19 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

Did you pass high school biology? 

Did you?

[Sawbonz 27562]

11 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Did you?

Yes

[Sawbonz 27562]

20 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Prick your finger.  Is that drop of blood "human"?  It's genetically human.  It has function.  Among other things, it carries oxygen to your organs.

Is there a difference between blood cells and sperm cells?  Hell, at least all (or most) of our blood cells do some good.  Half a trillion sperm cells are utterly wasted by the average male over his lifetime.

Red blood cells have no nuclei. Jesus Christ 

[jimmyjazz 45957]

6 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

Red blood cells have no nuclei. Jesus Christ 

Whether or not both cells have DNA, it still seems absurd to try to assign some sort of humanity to either.  I'm pretty sure you agree, don't you?

[WhatTheBuck 28781]

Counting chromosomes...

Wait for it... 

Wait for it... 

Wait for it...

(DON’t COME IN HERE!)

Okay, I’ve got it. 23. What did you come up with?

[jimmyjazz 45957]

1 minute ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Counting chromosomes...

Wait for it... 

Wait for it... 

Wait for it...

(DON’t COME IN HERE!)

Okay, I’ve got it. 23. What did you come up with?

46.

[WhatTheBuck 28781]

Just now, jimmyjazz said:

46.

That’s pairs.

[Sawbonz 27562]

1 minute ago, WhatTheBuck said:

That’s pairs.

Now do spermatozoa