CR: COVID-19 --Political Talk

[HenryJames 66045]

 

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19101]

16 minutes ago, DigglerontheHoof said:

This ignorant, evil cunt...

This right here.  I bet she is vaccinated too.  

[Fudge Nuggets 19190]

1 hour ago, Chuckie Finster said:

My company, to their credit, has been pretty cautious through the entire COVID ordeal but seem to have lost their minds recently.

They mandated everyone return to the office last week, and then sent out an eleven bullet point email about how we can "do our part to stop the spread of COVID-19"  where the word vaccination was nowhere to be found.  Fucking insanity.

Sounds like the local gov is about to take away one of your company’s tax breaks if everyone isn’t back in the office soon.  

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19101]

Just now, HenryJames said:

 

He is so fucking stupid.  I cannot believe this asshat made it into med school, much less actually finished.

[wildcat09 29352]

5 minutes ago, Beantown Express 2.0 said:

I don’t think she really believes this shit but is saying this stuff just so she gets re elected by her dumb ass Georgia constituents.  She knows the alternative is going back to checking people in at the local cross fit or being ridden in the Kentucky Derby.

Stop giving these people credit. MTG is absolutely batshit insane. She got Q pilled early and posted tons of rambling psychotic videos about Q shit before she decided to run for office.

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19101]

10 minutes ago, Beantown Express 2.0 said:

So my sister in law’s older brother (I think he is like 60 years old) was in the hospital due to Covid and had double pneumonia.  He is unvaccinated because he has some form of blood cancer disorder and can’t take the vaccine.  When the hospital released him he went home and his daughter immediately noticed something was wrong with his face.  They took him back to the hospital and it was determined he had a stroke from a blood clot due to Covid.  The disease is just plain dangerous and it really is sad that our country is made up of so many dumb people that they are unable to comprehend it.  It doesn’t help that the politicians are using this to get re elected by their idiot base by claiming “freedom” and such bullshit and the right wing media is using this same idiot base to make money off of them even though they are slowly killing them.  

This is what infuriates me.  I am happy to mask up to protect people like you sister in law's older brother.  He has no choice in the matter.  People like him and kids who are too young are the people I am masking up for.  

The "My Freedumbs" caucus doesn't give a shit about anyone but themselves.  It is disgusting, and I say that as a person who acknowledges she is pretty fucking selfish.

Edited August 10, 2021 by PenelopeWitherspoon

[TexArcher 37774]

We need a Dexter for the GOP.

[HenryJames 66045]

 

[4th&Five 41526]

From replies:

[DonkeyCigars 144]

16 minutes ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

The thing is, it isn't personal.  When some bumfuck in Texas decides to not get vaccinated, that has the impact to affect EVERY person in the US.  I am not sure what is so difficult for people to understand about this.

When you are talking about putting something inside your body-- chemicals, drugs, gene therapy, vaccines, whatever-- it IS personal. You force people to start ingesting things that the government and/or scientists are creating (in good faith, I believe, and with the best knowledge and tools they have at their disposal which is inherently limited and imperfect), then you are creating a very slippery slope that is dangerous if you have a very independent streak. Again, I'm fully vaxxed and think to not be is foolish, but I (and tens if not hundreds of millions of others) have a hard time justifying forcing someone to ingest a vaccine against their will. 

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19101]

FYI, both of Marjorie Taylor Greene's twitter accounts are up and running.  She should be permabanned.

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19101]

4 minutes ago, DonkeyCigars said:

When you are talking about putting something inside your body-- chemicals, drugs, gene therapy, vaccines, whatever-- it IS personal. You force people to start ingesting things that the government and/or scientists are creating (in good faith, I believe, and with the best knowledge and tools they have at their disposal which is inherently limited and imperfect), then you are creating a very slippery slope that is dangerous if you have a very independent streak. Again, I'm fully vaxxed and think to not be is foolish, but I (and tens if not hundreds of millions of others) have a hard time justifying forcing someone to ingest a vaccine against their will. 

It stops being a personal decision when it impacts others.  This isn't hard.  

I hope everyone who chooses to remain unvaccinated gets COVID and dies.  Sorry, but I am there.  The world would be a better place without them in it.

[OneOfTheOutOfFocusGuys 2073]

good talk, everyone

[heso 2791]

Just saw that as of yesterday, my company is now over 90% vaccinated in our US offices, which includes 3 offices in Texas. My office in Pittsburgh is at 95%. I haven’t seen any numbers on any of the international offices. 

Even with 95% vaccinated here, if you go into the office (which is optional at this point) you have to be vaccinated and wear a mask. That changed as delta started increasing the numbers in the county. As of june, if you were vaccinated you could go into the office without a mask. If you’re unvaccinated, you’re not allowed to go into the office without a compelling business case for being there. 

Edited August 10, 2021 by heso

[horn4life 3760]

Well the basic code for "science" is the argument is the Vaccine is not fully approved, only emergency approved.  The fact it will save your life and the lives of your loved ones is something to be completely and totally dismissed.  But when you believe lies about fundamental shit, it's simply easy to believe a lot of lies that fit with your own uneducated unscientific musings.

---------------------------------------

I find this particularly interesting.  Two younger daughters of people we know, 22 and 28 both got covid, then got the vaccine, and now covid again.    It is just a data point of curiosity.  The one girls father has ALS but he is vaccinated and only has mild symptoms thankfully. Anyhow I found it interesting.  

---------------------------------------------------

Too bad the dumb are dumb. And too bad Republicans as a whole CHOOSE to be dumb. But I guess it's been a while since it's been so easy to see Darwin's modeling in humans so clearly.

 

[Captainant 27658]

7 minutes ago, DonkeyCigars said:

When you are talking about putting something inside your body-- chemicals, drugs, gene therapy, vaccines, whatever-- it IS personal. You force people to start ingesting things that the government and/or scientists are creating (in good faith, I believe, and with the best knowledge and tools they have at their disposal which is inherently limited and imperfect), then you are creating a very slippery slope that is dangerous if you have a very independent streak. Again, I'm fully vaxxed and think to not be is foolish, but I (and tens if not hundreds of millions of others) have a hard time justifying forcing someone to ingest a vaccine against their will. 

why stop at vaccines? HAVEN'T YOU HEARD THEY'RE CHLORINATING AND FLOURIDATING THE WATER SUPPLIES???? They're ENRICHING our FLOUR??? They're IODIZING our SALT???

 

MY BODY MY CHOICE RARAAHGHGBAGAGGLY

 

It just seems wildly inconsistent to be perfectly fine with the rest of the societal "chemicals" that we all encounter for the sake of public safety, and to refuse to get a fucking vaccine - even the J&J vaccine, which isn't """gEnE tHeRaPy""". 

Stop making excuses for mental toddlers. Stop arguing a slippery slope in bad faith and intellectual dishonesty. If people like you had the mic back in the day, we never would have beaten polio. And BECAUSE of people like you, we still haven't been able to eradicate measles and it's even had a resurgence.

[TexArcher 37774]

19 minutes ago, DonkeyCigars said:

When you are talking about putting something inside your body-- chemicals, drugs, gene therapy, vaccines, whatever-- it IS personal. You force people to start ingesting things that the government and/or scientists are creating (in good faith, I believe, and with the best knowledge and tools they have at their disposal which is inherently limited and imperfect), then you are creating a very slippery slope that is dangerous if you have a very independent streak. Again, I'm fully vaxxed and think to not be is foolish, but I (and tens if not hundreds of millions of others) have a hard time justifying forcing someone to ingest a vaccine against their will. 

You should google "mandatory vaccines in United States history."

Here's one of the many entries you might find enlightening:

https://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/articles/government-regulation

 

Edited August 10, 2021 by TexArcher

[Foosters 17851]

Yeah maybe you'll convince the guy who voted for Trump twice using logic and reason.

[DonkeyCigars 144]

3 minutes ago, Captainant said:

why stop at vaccines? HAVEN'T YOU HEARD THEY'RE CHLORINATING AND FLOURIDATING THE WATER SUPPLIES???? They're ENRICHING our FLOUR??? They're IODIZING our SALT???

 

MY BODY MY CHOICE RARAAHGHGBAGAGGLY

 

It just seems wildly inconsistent to be perfectly fine with the rest of the societal "chemicals" that we all encounter for the sake of public safety, and to refuse to get a fucking vaccine - even the J&J vaccine, which isn't """gEnE tHeRaPy""". 

Stop making excuses for mental toddlers. Stop arguing a slippery slope in bad faith and intellectual dishonesty. If people like you had the mic back in the day, we never would have beaten polio. And BECAUSE of people like you, we still haven't been able to eradicate measles and it's even had a resurgence.

I mean, you realize that you don't have to ingest enriched flour? You can eat gluten free crap or whatever, right? I just think that if your argument is "why stop at vaccines" you should give analogs that are similar-- forcing something into someone's body against their will. The closest I can think of is when you get a judge order to shoot up a mentally ill patient who is a harm to themselves or whatever. Are we seriously saying, not just being exclamatory, but honestly saying that we think potentially 100mm people who don't want to get vaccines should be court-ordered and forced because they have been dangerously divorced from reality (aka mentally ill)?

[DonkeyCigars 144]

1 minute ago, TexArcher said:

You should google "mandatory vaccine history in the United States."

 

Okay, I will, and will report back.

[Captainant 27658]

Just now, DonkeyCigars said:

Are we seriously saying, not just being exclamatory, but honestly saying that we think potentially 100mm people who don't want to get vaccines should be court-ordered and forced because they have been dangerously divorced from reality (aka mentally ill)?

No, they shouldn't be forced to get the vaccine. But they should not be allowed to go around endangering others at grocery stores, in mass transit, and other communal areas. And it shouldn't be such a fucking pearl clutch to propose such a thing by requiring vaccination and proof of vaccination to use those community resources and services. 

While you completely ignored my other point on water treatment chemicals, I'll play ball with you around "choice". These nutjobs who refuse to get vaccinated and/or wear a facemask don't have to buy groceries or use public/mass transit or have access to any community services. It's their choice to stay outside of all that. But they shouldn't be able to have their cake and eat it too, while spreading plague to the rest of us just trying to get back to fucking normal.

[Captainant 27658]

7 minutes ago, Foosters said:

Yeah maybe you'll convince the guy who voted for Trump twice using logic and reason.

no no, let's be fair to donk. He only voted for trump in 2020, you know, after 4 years of terrible policy, maladministration, and self-dealing. He's a """pRiNcIpLeD cOnSeRvAtIvE"""

Edited August 10, 2021 by Captainant

[DonkeyCigars 144]

7 minutes ago, Captainant said:

No, they shouldn't be forced to get the vaccine. But they should not be allowed to go around endangering others at grocery stores, in mass transit, and other communal areas. And it shouldn't be such a fucking pearl clutch to propose such a thing by requiring vaccination and proof of vaccination to use those community resources and services. 

While you completely ignored my other point on water treatment chemicals, I'll play ball with you around "choice". These nutjobs who refuse to get vaccinated and/or wear a facemask don't have to buy groceries or use public/mass transit or have access to any community services. It's their choice to stay outside of all that. But they shouldn't be able to have their cake and eat it too, while spreading plague to the rest of us just trying to get back to fucking normal.

Yea, this is better. 

I think clever policy is making it hard, maybe even making it all but impossible except in name only, to comfortably and conveniently exist without succumbing to getting vaccinated. "You don't have to get vaccinated, I'm not saying that, but what I am saying is if you want to use the Metro or take an Uber or go to a Grocery store or travel on an airplane, you have to be vaccinated".

Essentially you call their bluff to stay in their homes and order Whole Foods groceries and Door Dash and I will bet they crack.

Or they lie and say they are vaccinated (e.g. lie and say they didn't vote for Trump) just to get along conveniently in a society that disagrees and makes it difficult for them.

Edited August 10, 2021 by DonkeyCigars

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19101]

13 minutes ago, Captainant said:

No, they shouldn't be forced to get the vaccine. But they should not be allowed to go around endangering others at grocery stores, in mass transit, and other communal areas. And it shouldn't be such a fucking pearl clutch to propose such a thing by requiring vaccination and proof of vaccination to use those community resources and services. 

While you completely ignored my other point on water treatment chemicals, I'll play ball with you around "choice". These nutjobs who refuse to get vaccinated and/or wear a facemask don't have to buy groceries or use public/mass transit or have access to any community services. It's their choice to stay outside of all that. But they shouldn't be able to have their cake and eat it too, while spreading plague to the rest of us just trying to get back to fucking normal.

This is what I laugh about.  The vaccine mandates are not FORCING you to get the vaccine.  They are basically saying these are the consequences of you NOT doing it.  

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19101]

9 minutes ago, DonkeyCigars said:

Yea, this is better. 

I think clever policy is making it hard, maybe even making it all but impossible except in name only, to comfortably and conveniently exist without succumbing to getting vaccinated. "You don't have to get vaccinated, I'm not saying that, but what I am saying is if you want to use the Metro or take an Uber or go to a Grocery store or travel on an airplane, you have to be vaccinated".

Essentially you call their bluff to stay in their homes and order Whole Foods groceries and Door Dash and I will bet they crack.

Or they lie and say they are vaccinated (e.g. lie and say they didn't vote for Trump) just to get along conveniently in a society that disagrees and makes it difficult for them.

THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT THE MANDATES DO!  HOLY SHIT, ARE YOU FUCKING STUPID?!?

Edited August 10, 2021 by PenelopeWitherspoon

[Captainant 27658]

5 minutes ago, DonkeyCigars said:

I think clever policy is making it hard, maybe even making it all but impossible except in name only, to comfortably and conveniently exist without succumbing to getting vaccinated. "You don't have to get vaccinated, I'm not saying that, but what I am saying is if you want to use the Metro or take an Uber or go to a Grocery store or travel on an airplane, you have to be vaccinated".

 

Right, and the leading GOP version of "clever policy" is to blanket ban and impede any sort of mechanism or strategy to achieve that outcome. So thanks for voting for abbott too, you're really helping out society here by voting for leaders who are ACTIVELY BLOCKING ANY ATTEMPT TO CONTAIN THIS PANDEMIC IN OUR FUCKING STATE

I don't know what fucking fantasy land you've been living in, but what you're describing ain't gonna happen in a GOP-led state. Which coincidentally, is where the worst rate of COVID and vaccination tends to be.

The conservative solution of "what if we propose a bunch of unrealistic things to jam up the works and maintain the status quo?" is going to, and has, killed a shitload of Americans.

So congrats on the electoral success, I guess. We're all worse off for it.

[NameAlreadyInUse 5112]

44 minutes ago, DonkeyCigars said:

When you are talking about putting something inside your body-- chemicals, drugs, gene therapy, vaccines, whatever-- it IS personal. You force people to start ingesting things that the government and/or scientists are creating (in good faith, I believe, and with the best knowledge and tools they have at their disposal which is inherently limited and imperfect), then you are creating a very slippery slope that is dangerous if you have a very independent streak. Again, I'm fully vaxxed and think to not be is foolish, but I (and tens if not hundreds of millions of others) have a hard time justifying forcing someone to ingest a vaccine against their will. 

Meanwhile, this was never a problem for the measles vaccine, or chickenpox vaccine, or the rubella vaccine, or the smallpox vaccine, or the polio vaccine or any number of other vaccines that parents have routinely forced into their children's bodies since vaccines were developed.  

As a country, we also have no concern about forcing a shit ton of vaccines into the bodies of every immigrant who applies for a green card. I think my husband had to get 10 vaccines as part of his green card application.

I don't buy this bullshit excuse, because it is bullshit and we as a country have a proven track record of not caring about personal choice when it comes to vaccines going way way back to before I was born. 

Hell, I don't have a smallpox vaccine scar on my arm because so many people got the vaccine that smallpox was eradicated in the US.  That didn't happen because of people who needed to do their own research, it happened because people listened to actual experts and did the right thing for their countrymen.  I'm not in the mood to excuse the people today who have chosen that they are going to selfishly ignore the experts in the name of choice, when in reality they are just scared of fucking needles. 

Also, if I had a dollar for every time someone claimed a slippery slope was coming I'd be Surly .0001%.

[Celery Man 20935]

The problem is we have reached the point where the only reasonable discussion you can have with people who align with mainstream GOP beliefs and practices is one where you explain that they should stop being such a fucking idiot and that their understanding of reality is completely fucked. But you can't do that in a professional setting when there are plenty of daywalker republicans who manage to show up to work and not say shit like "Fauci orchestrated the pandemic" or "attempted overthrow of our system of government at its seat of power is no big deal". Because you might end up telling Stew to fuck his own face and then there are problems and HR, etc. So people don't talk.

Edited August 10, 2021 by Celery Man

[pyrohornIII 4814]

58 minutes ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

FYI, both of Marjorie Taylor Greene's twitter accounts are up and running.  She should be permabanned.

She's been banned for a week now.  It's not permanent, but that's imminent.  She'll keep pushing back until she's gone so she can say she's as big a martyr as the orange toad is.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/10/tech/twitter-marjorie-taylor-greene/index.html

[DonkeyCigars 144]

1 minute ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT THE MANDATES DO!  HOLY SHIT, ARE YOU FUCKING STUPID?!?

No, I'm good with mandates to do something. What I am not okay with was the mental masturbation about forcing people to get a vaccination and then going full hunger games.

[UpperWestside 6163]

53 minutes ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

It stops being a personal decision when it impacts others.  This isn't hard.  

I hope everyone who chooses to remain unvaccinated gets COVID and dies.  Sorry, but I am there.  The world would be a better place without them in it.

I am flying back from Austin in a little while, but I just spent a week here in my small hometown. I have some family members who are still not vaccinated. I listened to their reasoning. I don’t agree with it and I think at this point that vaccination needs to be mandatory. My uncle’s wife wants to get it, but he does not. My mother got her shots as soon as she was allowed to. My mom believes the doctors and science. She is on a sparsely populated island in that respect.

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19101]

Just now, UpperWestside said:

I am flying back from Austin in a little while, but I just spent a week here in my small hometown. I have some family members who are still not vaccinated. I listened to their reasoning. I don’t agree with it and I think at this point that vaccination needs to be mandatory. My uncle’s wife wants to get it, but he does not. My mother got her shots as soon as she was allowed to. My mom believes the doctors and science. She is on a sparsely populated island in that respect.

I get it.  My brother was there, and he finally got vaccinated.  But I just don't have it in me to give a shit.  It seems like the only thing that will move the needle for any of these people is severe illness and/or death, and even then, not always.    

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19101]

2 minutes ago, DonkeyCigars said:

No, I'm good with mandates to do something. What I am not okay with was the mental masturbation about forcing people to get a vaccination and then going full hunger games.

Ummm, that was never happening.  We all were calling for mandates.  I just don't give a shit if they die if they don't.  Actions have consequences.  Isn't that what the alleged party of personal responsibility has been telling us since the 80s?

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19101]

6 minutes ago, pyrohornIII said:

She's been banned for a week now.  It's not permanent, but that's imminent.  She'll keep pushing back until she's gone so she can say she's as big a martyr as the orange toad is.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/10/tech/twitter-marjorie-taylor-greene/index.html

I can still see her tweets.  So it isn't a very good ban.

[Don Johnson 4753]

 

[Captainant 27658]

8 minutes ago, DonkeyCigars said:

No, I'm good with mandates to do something. What I am not okay with was the mental masturbation about forcing people to get a vaccination and then going full hunger games.

Pretty sure the only place you're seeing that narrative is on Facebook, gab, telegram, fox, oann, and brietbart.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13511]

1 hour ago, DonkeyCigars said:

When you are talking about putting something inside your body-- chemicals, drugs, gene therapy, vaccines, whatever-- it IS personal. You force people to start ingesting things that the government and/or scientists are creating (in good faith, I believe, and with the best knowledge and tools they have at their disposal which is inherently limited and imperfect), then you are creating a very slippery slope that is dangerous if you have a very independent streak. Again, I'm fully vaxxed and think to not be is foolish, but I (and tens if not hundreds of millions of others) have a hard time justifying forcing someone to ingest a vaccine against their will. 

You bring up a good point but the govt, including the Texas govt, requires students to get vaccinated to attend school.  This isn't a new concept.

 

[David Dennison 18856]

 

[DonkeyCigars 144]

25 minutes ago, Celery Man said:

The problem is we have reached the point where the only reasonable discussion you can have with people who align with mainstream GOP beliefs and practices is one where you explain that they should stop being such a fucking idiot and that their understanding of reality is completely fucked. But you can't do that in a professional setting when there are plenty of daywalker republicans who manage to show up to work and not say shit like "Fauci orchestrated the pandemic" or "attempted overthrow of our system of government at its seat of power is no big deal". Because you might end up telling Stew to fuck his own face and then there are problems and HR, etc. So people don't talk.

This. We have learned to go along to get along and, even when the corporate messaging is counter to our personal beliefs (e.g. my JPMC IB friends call Jaime Dimon, Jaime Biden, or for all those who live in The Woodlands or Frisco but work for big tech HQ'ed in SF/SJ to grossly generalize for illustrative purposes), we just keep conversations superficial because it's smart business.

But I'd also challenge that if your explanation starts and stops at "you disagree so you are an idiot and your understanding of reality is wrong", then you are guilty of the exact same thing you are accusing. What makes your perspective and perception the correct one? Have you considered you may be engaging in the "lesser mind" problem or fallacy?

(The lesser minds problem takes three primary forms: that others have less mental experience than we do ourselves, that others' inner mental experience is less causally important to behavior than our own, and that others' inner mental experience is a less accurate reflection of reality than our own. Here is a paper on it from Northwestern: 

https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.705.9284&rep=rep1&type=pdf#:~:text=The lesser minds problem takes,of reality than our own)

Edited August 10, 2021 by DonkeyCigars

[DonkeyCigars 144]

10 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

You bring up a good point but the govt, including the Texas govt, requires students to get vaccinated to attend school.  This isn't a new concept.

 

I believe there are opt-outs for this, right?

And there are private school options.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13511]

Just now, DonkeyCigars said:

I believe there are opt-outs for this, right?

And there are private school options.

I'm sure there are exemptions, private schools and homeschooling that allow students to avoid vaccines.  I also do not know anyone that is advocating the govt require everyone in the US to be vaccinated against COVID. I'm sure some want that but there is no real momentum of it.

As far as private companies requiring employees to be vaccinated, that seems like a valid option because no is required to work there. I even think there is an argument that a private company could require customers to be vaccinated but few would want that battle. Cruise ships or airlines are/could go with that as they already have processes in place to vet or track info about customers.  I can't see a Home Depot requiring it as it would be a nightmare to manage.

[atomheartbevo 89656]

4 hours ago, MonkeyDoughnut said:

Problem is they can argue more than twice as many people died from cancer in the US today alone and they aren't really worried about that either.

And our response is: "tell me where I can buy get this vaccine to protect against cancer!"

[We’reTexas 1473]

11 minutes ago, DonkeyCigars said:

But I'd also challenge that if your explanation starts and stops at "you disagree so you are an idiot and your understanding of reality is wrong", then you are guilty of the exact same thing you are accusing. What makes your perspective and perception the correct one?

[DonkeyCigars 144]

31 minutes ago, NameAlreadyInUse said:

Meanwhile, this was never a problem for the measles vaccine, or chickenpox vaccine, or the rubella vaccine, or the smallpox vaccine, or the polio vaccine or any number of other vaccines that parents have routinely forced into their children's bodies since vaccines were developed.  

As a country, we also have no concern about forcing a shit ton of vaccines into the bodies of every immigrant who applies for a green card. I think my husband had to get 10 vaccines as part of his green card application.

I don't buy this bullshit excuse, because it is bullshit and we as a country have a proven track record of not caring about personal choice when it comes to vaccines going way way back to before I was born. 

Hell, I don't have a smallpox vaccine scar on my arm because so many people got the vaccine that smallpox was eradicated in the US.  That didn't happen because of people who needed to do their own research, it happened because people listened to actual experts and did the right thing for their countrymen.  I'm not in the mood to excuse the people today who have chosen that they are going to selfishly ignore the experts in the name of choice, when in reality they are just scared of fucking needles. 

Also, if I had a dollar for every time someone claimed a slippery slope was coming I'd be Surly .0001%.

If I were to synthesis your post here, I think you are appealing to the idea that Americans were more communal and less selfish and that was shown by trusting in the government more and doing as they were instructed by experts and the government, right?

I read an interesting stat:

"Do you trust the federal government? When voters were asked that question in December, 1958, by pollsters from a center now called the American National Election Studies, at the University of Michigan, seventy-three per cent said yes, they had confidence in the government to do the right thing either almost all the time or most of the time. Six years later, they were asked basically the same question, and seventy-seven per cent said yes.

Pollsters ask the question regularly. In a Pew survey from April, 2021, only twenty-four per cent of respondents said yes. And that represented an uptick. During Obama’s and Trump’s Presidencies, the figure was sometimes as low as seventeen per cent. Sixty years ago, an overwhelming majority of Americans said they had faith in the government. Today, an overwhelming majority say they don’t."

 This is from a fine article discussing two books which come at the problem from two different directions (one blames conservatives and one blames liberals; both are researched scholarship, not punditry)-- I encourage you to read it:

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/08/16/are-liberals-to-blame-for-our-crisis-of-faith-in-government

What jumped out at me was this and especially the bold:

Social scientists often lament the diminishment of trust, both political and social—that is, our trust in other people, which has also declined. And it is probably true that high levels of trust enable governments to get more done. But, as Fried and Harris acknowledge, lack of trust does not correlate with apathy. The contrary may be the case. If you trust government to do the right thing most of the time, you may feel that you can check out. Often, lack of trust in the government is an incentive to act. The antiwar protesters in the Vietnam period were politically energized. So were the insurrectionists of January 6th. Both manifested high levels of distrust.

Neither “Public Citizens” nor “At War with Government” is explicit about what voters actually mean when they are asked about trust. For example, how would the authors answer the trust question themselves? Highly educated people count skepticism a virtue. They typically would not report that they trust government, or any social institution, “most of the time.” What seems to make educated people uncomfortable, though, is the idea that the mass public shares this skepticism.

But mass publics, too, are trained to be skeptical. Consumer economies make them that way. Commercials sell products by encouraging consumers to be skeptical of the claims of competing products. Many incorporate a wink of knowingness—“You get it that we are just trying to sell something here.” Unquestioned trust seems unthinking, naïve. Does anyone trust Facebook? You’re not supposed to trust corporate entities. So people say they don’t.

[atomheartbevo 89656]

8 hours ago, tx 3 putt said:

ted Cruz hs shown zero leaderahip during this crisis. zero point fucking zero 

him and Abbott both need to roll off a cliff. They don’t give a fuck about this state or its citizens. 

[atomheartbevo 89656]

45 minutes ago, NameAlreadyInUse said:

Meanwhile, this was never a problem for the measles vaccine, or chickenpox vaccine, or the rubella vaccine, or the smallpox vaccine, or the polio vaccine or any number of other vaccines that parents have routinely forced into their children's bodies since vaccines were developed.  

I've seen way too many of these older motherfuckers bitching about the vaccine, with a nice little scar on the arm from their smallpox vaccine.

[Celery Man 20935]

1 minute ago, DonkeyCigars said:

 

But I'd also challenge that if your explanation starts and stops at "you disagree so you are an idiot and your understanding of reality is wrong", then you are guilty of the exact same thing you are accusing. What makes your perspective and perception the correct one? Have you considered you may be engaging in the "lesser mind" problem or fallacy?

(The lesser minds problem takes three primary forms: that others have less mental experience than we do ourselves, that others' inner mental experience is less causally important to behavior than our own, and that others' inner mental experience is a less accurate reflection of reality than our own. Here is a paper on it from Northwestern: 

https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.705.9284&rep=rep1&type=pdf#:~:text=The lesser minds problem takes,of reality than our own)

There are a wide range of topics and disagreements where you can compare the validity of different viewpoints. In the two broad categories I raised (pandemic and insurrection) there is a lot more room (but not as much as is being taken) to view the insurrection differently than there is to view the pandemic and specifically how we mitigate it. Because the science stuff is based on science, and if one "side" is correct that means that the entire body of knowledge and technology we have amassed as a species is suspect since we can no longer definitively state when something is observed or factual.

I'll read into the lesser mind thing - I am interested in things like that and think it is important to be able to a) look at things from different angles and b) understand as best as you can the angle from which other people are looking at something. Especially when you are working together with people around that thing. A big part of the reason why I've had the modest success I've had is because of my ability and interest in empathizing, understanding, and incoprorating/addressing perspectives of different people.

But then you have things like a pandemic where a huge portion of our population have been poisoned with absolute bullshit and it is literally killing them. Trying to work with and around that idiocy has brought us to here. Of course I would not say "Well Phil maybe you should fuck your own face" if a coworker mentioned that they are not going to get vaccinated because covid is just the flu and also their freedoms/the liberals/conspiracy, it would be challenging to phrase any kind of substantive response in a way where it isn't completely obvious that you are treating them like a particularly slow child. It's science and basic human decency (particularly in a work environment where you are interacting with roughly socioeconomic peers), there isn't a lot of room. If Phil is coming to conclusions based on alternative facts, we're past a point where he should be granted a pass because maybe his facts are valid. They're not, well past half a million dead Americans, all of our lives have been fucked up for over a year. Phil isn't a slow child, he's a slow adult.

[C-Man 27218]

4 hours ago, MonkeyDoughnut said:

Problem is they can argue more than twice as many people died from cancer in the US today alone and they aren't really worried about that either.

And that's a completely disingenuous argument until cancer spreads via inter-personal contact. Also be sure and tell them how much money is spent annually in the quest for a cancer cure/treatment/etc.

 

 

2 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

Another one 

 

Obligatory ...

 

 

1 hour ago, DonkeyCigars said:

When you are talking about putting something inside your body-- chemicals, drugs, gene therapy, vaccines, whatever-- it IS personal. You force people to start ingesting things that the government and/or scientists are creating (in good faith, I believe, and with the best knowledge and tools they have at their disposal which is inherently limited and imperfect), then you are creating a very slippery slope that is dangerous if you have a very independent streak. Again, I'm fully vaxxed and think to not be is foolish, but I (and tens if not hundreds of millions of others) have a hard time justifying forcing someone to ingest a vaccine against their will. 

As others have said, that's fine. You don't want it? You lose privileges, privileges that are EARNED by the rest of us willing to do what it takes to get society back to some semblance of normal. If you don't get the vaccine, all bets are off. Your insurance premiums are higher, your chances at being denied emergency COVID care might decrease, flying might be tough, forget going to concerts or sporting events and so on and so forth. Fuck these people letting everybody else do the heavy lifting by getting vaccines, wearing masks and otherwise curbing their lifestyles the last two years.

 

 

13 minutes ago, DonkeyCigars said:

I believe there are opt-outs for this, right?

And there are private school options.

Yes, I believe there is. Fortunately, not enough people take advantage of these things -- and, yes, most are taking advantage -- to turn things into a national (or world) health disaster.

[C-Man 27218]

10 minutes ago, DonkeyCigars said:

If I were to synthesis your post here, I think you are appealing to the idea that Americans were more communal and less selfish and that was shown by trusting in the government more and doing as they were instructed by experts and the government, right?

I read an interesting stat:

"Do you trust the federal government? When voters were asked that question in December, 1958, by pollsters from a center now called the American National Election Studies, at the University of Michigan, seventy-three per cent said yes, they had confidence in the government to do the right thing either almost all the time or most of the time. Six years later, they were asked basically the same question, and seventy-seven per cent said yes.

Pollsters ask the question regularly. In a Pew survey from April, 2021, only twenty-four per cent of respondents said yes. And that represented an uptick. During Obama’s and Trump’s Presidencies, the figure was sometimes as low as seventeen per cent. Sixty years ago, an overwhelming majority of Americans said they had faith in the government. Today, an overwhelming majority say they don’t."

 This is from a fine article discussing two books which come at the problem from two different directions (one blames conservatives and one blames liberals; both are researched scholarship, not punditry)-- I encourage you to read it:

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/08/16/are-liberals-to-blame-for-our-crisis-of-faith-in-government

What jumped out at me was this and especially the bold:

Social scientists often lament the diminishment of trust, both political and social—that is, our trust in other people, which has also declined. And it is probably true that high levels of trust enable governments to get more done. But, as Fried and Harris acknowledge, lack of trust does not correlate with apathy. The contrary may be the case. If you trust government to do the right thing most of the time, you may feel that you can check out. Often, lack of trust in the government is an incentive to act. The antiwar protesters in the Vietnam period were politically energized. So were the insurrectionists of January 6th. Both manifested high levels of distrust.

Neither “Public Citizens” nor “At War with Government” is explicit about what voters actually mean when they are asked about trust. For example, how would the authors answer the trust question themselves? Highly educated people count skepticism a virtue. They typically would not report that they trust government, or any social institution, “most of the time.” What seems to make educated people uncomfortable, though, is the idea that the mass public shares this skepticism.

But mass publics, too, are trained to be skeptical. Consumer economies make them that way. Commercials sell products by encouraging consumers to be skeptical of the claims of competing products. Many incorporate a wink of knowingness—“You get it that we are just trying to sell something here.” Unquestioned trust seems unthinking, naïve. Does anyone trust Facebook? You’re not supposed to trust corporate entities. So people say they don’t.

I can tell you when and why. Sadly, there is a large portion of this country that still cannot accept the fact that we had a black POTUS. And then Trump. Add in a healthy mix of social media (everybody can be a content publisher today) and you get this shit sandwich.

[DonkeyCigars 144]

2 minutes ago, Celery Man said:

There are a wide range of topics and disagreements where you can compare the validity of different viewpoints. In the two broad categories I raised (pandemic and insurrection) there is a lot more room (but not as much as is being taken) to view the insurrection differently than there is to view the pandemic and specifically how we mitigate it. Because the science stuff is based on science, and if one "side" is correct that means that the entire body of knowledge and technology we have amassed as a species is suspect since we can no longer definitively state when something is observed or factual.

I'll read into the lesser mind thing - I am interested in things like that and think it is important to be able to a) look at things from different angles and b) understand as best as you can the angle from which other people are looking at something. Especially when you are working together with people around that thing. A big part of the reason why I've had the modest success I've had is because of my ability and interest in empathizing, understanding, and incoprorating/addressing perspectives of different people.

But then you have things like a pandemic where a huge portion of our population have been poisoned with absolute bullshit and it is literally killing them. Trying to work with and around that idiocy has brought us to here. Of course I would not say "Well Phil maybe you should fuck your own face" if a coworker mentioned that they are not going to get vaccinated because covid is just the flu and also their freedoms/the liberals/conspiracy, it would be challenging to phrase any kind of substantive response in a way where it isn't completely obvious that you are treating them like a particularly slow child. It's science and basic human decency (particularly in a work environment where you are interacting with roughly socioeconomic peers), there isn't a lot of room. If Phil is coming to conclusions based on alternative facts, we're past a point where he should be granted a pass because maybe his facts are valid. They're not, well past half a million dead Americans, all of our lives have been fucked up for over a year. Phil isn't a slow child, he's a slow adult.

I appreciate your response. It's so well addressed that I am not sure I have a response that would add to the discussion except to say that while you are accurate about science being based on science, the world we live in today is not one where we trust the best and brightest minds are scientists and doctors and that they aren't compromised in interests (personal, corporate or otherwise).

At the end of the day "Science" is a discipline and the "Scientific Method" is just a process. The application of the Scientific Method and execution of Science is done by people. People who are at times a myriad of both great character, but also imperfect flaws (e.g. biases, agenda-driven, liars, incompetent, selfish, etc.). I'm sure most of the time people in government and science are operating at a higher moral ideal and level (well, maybe not the government. See: Every politician stereotype and joke ever).

But the fact that these things-- vaccines, studies, applications of science, government orders-- are delivered by imperfect people means that there will always be a seat at the table for skepticism and personal freedom to choose skepticism, whatever that means to you. And sometimes what that means to you is different than what it means to Phil from the office.

I guess I lied, I did have a response.