CR: COVID-19 --Political Talk

[Beau Vine 54,384]

2 minutes ago, MonkeyDoughnut said:

While everyone is debating school mask mandates, can we at least agree that cloth masks are beyond useless and should be banned just like gaiters were? Minimum of a surgical mask should be required? 

No, they're not "beyond useless."  If you want to see "beyond useless," look in the mirror.

[Ten Bears 2,483]

You are getting your wish. San Angelo man:

"He's not doing good," Jessica Wallace posted on Facebook. "It's not looking in our favor, his lungs are stiff due to the fibrosis. They called and said they've run out of options for him and asked if I would consent to a do not resuscitate. And it would be up to us when to stop treatments."

The 30-year-old father of three, whose wife is expecting their fourth child next month, organized "The San Angelo Freedom Defenders" group last year to push back against pandemic protection measures, and he organized anti-mask rallies and gave multiple interviews questioning public health measures before experiencing shortness of breath, high fever and a dry cough on July 26.

"Every time he would start to cough, it would turn into a coughing attack, and then that would cause him to completely go out of breath," Jessica Wallace said, adding that he initially refused to get tested for COVID-19. "He was so hard-headed. He didn't want to see a doctor, because he didn't want to be part of the statistics with COVID tests."

At first, he tried treating himself with ivermectin, high doses of Vitamin C, zinc aspirin and an inhaler, but Wallace was taken July 30 by a relative to the emergency room at Shannon Medical Center, where he joined 33 others hospitalized with the virus."

https://www.rawstory.com/caleb-wallace/

I was born in Shannon hospital in San Angelo and also got my vaccine there so this hits close to home.

[Born to Run 6,569]

While everyone is debating school mask mandates, can we at least agree that cloth masks are beyond useless and should be banned just like gaiters were? Minimum of a surgical mask should be required? 

Would you rather me cough in your face wearing a cloth mask or nothing at all?
I can't believe we are still going through this.
Any reduction in transmission helps. Better mask work better at reducing viral particles. The cloth mask might be enough to keep you well. Sure a N 95 would be even better.

[C-Man 27,254]

25 minutes ago, MonkeyDoughnut said:

While everyone is debating school mask mandates, can we at least agree that cloth masks are beyond useless and should be banned just like gaiters were? Minimum of a surgical mask should be required? 

Jesus f'in Christ, we're 18 months into this shit. Are cloth masks as good as N95 masks? No, of course not. But if I wear a cloth mask and you wear a cloth mask we're actually both very well protected. The virus is best passed through water droplets and particles that are too big to pass through cloth masks (and even gaiters -- sort of). If everybody fucking wore gaiters and nothing else, Delta wouldn't be tearing a new asshole in SEC country.

[MC Fresh Breath 4,074]

30 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

I am responding to what was posted.  Fauci talked down flexible dose strategies that proved effective at ramping up vax coverage in  UK and Canada. Fauci couldn't make up his mind regarding the need for boosters long after the data was out there and other countries had moved on it. Until he of course changed his stance on boosters.  The guy is soft noodle.  He is one of the last public health voices that I would look to for an objective assessment of vaccine strategy. 

The post you went after was a summation saying they (Dem politicos) would take the vaccine if Fauci deemed it safe. Same thing in most folks' minds as saying if the experts deemed it safe.  It seems all of your criticisms are in regards to post vaccine rollout which is irrelevant to the original point.

At any rate, the idea that Biden/Harris somehow scared otherwise normal folks into becoming anti-vaxxers is patently ludicrous.  Edit:  I know you weren't arguing that, just throwing it in there.

Edited August 26, 2021 by MC Fresh Breath

[Captainant 27,727]

28 minutes ago, MonkeyDoughnut said:

While everyone is debating school mask mandates, can we at least agree that cloth masks are beyond useless and should be banned just like gaiters were? Minimum of a surgical mask should be required? 

I posted this over a year ago - but Duke did an empirical study of several different types of facemasks to measure their efficacy in blocking exhaled droplets - which are the main mechanism used by COVID to spread.

https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/6/36/eabd3083

While a cloth mask isn't as effective as surgical or N95 mask, they're still a significant (~90%) improvement in stopping droplets, relative to nothing.

[Longhorn_Fan68 33,887]

Just now, MC Fresh Breath said:

The post you went after was a summation saying they (Dem politicos) would take the vaccine if Fauci deemed it safe. Same thing in most folks' minds as saying if the experts deemed it safe.  It seems all of your criticisms are in regards to post vaccine rollout which is irrelevant to the original point.

At any rate, the idea that Biden/Harris somehow scared otherwise normal folks into becoming anti-vaxxers is patently ludicrous. 

yeah, it's a weird form of gaslighting. there's gotta be a term for it because it's distinctly different than just saying something didn't happen, but it has a similar result

[Anastasis 23,481]

3 minutes ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

At any rate, the idea that Biden/Harris somehow scared otherwise normal folks into becoming anti-vaxxers is patently ludicrous. 

Their rhetoric was undermining the process and they were doing it in case the admin was able to chalk up a political win with an FDA approval prior to the election. Of course, that never materialized because the FDA stalled the read outs with sample size negotiations that ultimately were just a pointless merry go round, so Trump was denied the political benefits of a pre-election approval anyways.  

Edited August 26, 2021 by Anastasis

[Beau Vine 54,384]

3 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Their rhetoric was undermining the process and they were doing it in case the admin was able to chalk up a political win with an FDA approval prior to the election. Of course, that never materialized because the FDA stalled the read outs with sample size negotiations that ultimately were just a pointless merry go round, so Trump was denied the political benefits of a pre-election approval anyways.  

[Anastasis 23,481]

Politics is hard, I guess. 

[MC Fresh Breath 4,074]

2 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Their rhetoric was undermining the process and they were doing it in case the admin was able to chalk up a political win with an FDA approval prior to the election. Of course, that never materialized because the FDA stalled the read outs with sample size negotiations that ultimately were just a pointless merry go round, so Trump was denied the political benefits of a pre-election approval anyways.  

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/jul/23/tiktok-posts/biden-harris-doubted-trump-covid-19-vaccines-not-v/

 

Not sure if that's the rhetoric you're referring to or not.  Saying you don't trust Trump is not the same as not trusting a vaccine, imo.  Trump said Covid would go away at one point, just magically.   We don't need to go over the rest of what he said.  When just about every sentence uttered was a lie, every tweet a source of misinformation, it isn't hard to say I don't trust the dude, and I'll wait for the experts.

I don't think that rhetoric hurt, and I'm no defender of those two.

 

[Chooky 13,317]

 

[Anastasis 23,481]

1 minute ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/jul/23/tiktok-posts/biden-harris-doubted-trump-covid-19-vaccines-not-v/

 

Not sure if that's the rhetoric you're referring to or not.  Saying you don't trust Trump is not the same as not trusting a vaccine, imo.  Trump said Covid would go away at one point, just magically.   We don't need to go over the rest of what he said.  When just about every sentence uttered was a lie, every tweet a source of misinformation, it isn't hard to say I don't trust the dude, and I'll wait for the experts.

I don't think that rhetoric hurt, and I'm no defender of those two.

 

Nobody ever asked anybody to take Trump's word on vaccine efficacy.  That was and still is a strawman. 

[Captainant 27,727]

Just now, Chooky said:

 

[MC Fresh Breath 4,074]

Just now, Anastasis said:

Nobody ever asked anybody to take Trump's word on vaccine efficacy.  That was and still is a strawman. 

You read fast.  On the off chance you didn't read it, I'd like to know how this rhetoric somehow caused the anti-vaxx movement:

 

Quote

 

"If the public health professionals, if Dr. Fauci, if the doctors tell us that we should take it, I’ll be the first in line to take it. Absolutely. But if Donald Trump tells us that we should take it, I’m not taking it."

 

 

[Anastasis 23,481]

What I would give for some audio recordings of the poison control center calls. 

[Beau Vine 54,384]

5 minutes ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

Trump said Covid would go away at one point, just magically.

Try "at 40 points."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/video/politics/40-times-trump-said-the-coronavirus-would-go-away/2020/04/30/d2593312-9593-4ec2-aff7-72c1438fca0e_video.html

[Neonmoon 38,130]

8 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Their rhetoric was undermining the process and they were doing it in case the admin was able to chalk up a political win with an FDA approval prior to the election. Of course, that never materialized because the FDA stalled the read outs with sample size negotiations that ultimately were just a pointless merry go round, so Trump was denied the political benefits of a pre-election approval anyways.  

[Anastasis 23,481]

1 minute ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

You read fast.  On the off chance you didn't read it, I'd like to know how this rhetoric somehow caused the anti-vaxx movement:

The entire article is only 1200 words. 2 block quotes from Kamala, 5 from Biden. 

[Anastasis 23,481]

Y'all really don't think that there was political posturing involved in those statements by...politicians running for office.  I mean ok I guess. 

[MC Fresh Breath 4,074]

Just now, Anastasis said:

Y'all really don't think that there was political posturing involved in those statements by...politicians running for office.  I mean ok I guess. 

 

I don't doubt posturing, but I do doubt "Their rhetoric was undermining the process."  Like, a lot. 

 

[Anastasis 23,481]

FDA doing the same merry go round right now with the pediatric studies, except in this case they have actually meaningfully delayed the read outs more than +/- the few weeks that would have resulted in a pre-election read out back in 2020.  

[Macanudo 13,009]

4 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

What I would give for some audio recordings of the poison control center calls. 

Imagine the audio equivalent of a Thujone MS Paint Masterpiece.

[Anastasis 23,481]

Just now, MC Fresh Breath said:

I don't doubt posturing, but I do doubt "Their rhetoric was undermining the process."  Like, a lot. 

OK. 

[jimmyjazz 46,102]

55 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

I am responding to what was posted.  Fauci talked down flexible dose strategies that proved effective at ramping up vax coverage in  UK and Canada. Fauci couldn't make up his mind regarding the need for boosters long after the data was out there and other countries had moved on it. Until he of course changed his stance on boosters.  The guy is soft noodle.  He is one of the last public health voices that I would look to for an objective assessment of vaccine strategy. 

None of which is remotely close to what Harris feared, which was a muzzled FDA/CDC.  You know this, you just like going big brane on Fauci.

[jimmyjazz 46,102]

24 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Politics is hard, I guess. 

I'm not sure if you realize this, but Biden/Harris had zero political power in the fall of 2020. 

I mean, I know it's subtle, but for fuck's sake.

[Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand 13,587]

A politician was making the valid point that the public should heed the expert's advice over that of a bat shit con artist should their opinions diverge while running for office in hopes this completely reasonable point would increase his chances of getting elected. Oh the absurdity does make me laugh. 

[Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand 13,587]

Dp

Edited August 26, 2021 by Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand

[Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand 13,587]

Dp

Edited August 26, 2021 by Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand

[Aqua Buddha 14,600]

29 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

What I would give for some audio recordings of the poison control center calls. 

Just listen to Finebaum.

[OneOfTheOutOfFocusGuys 2,078]

34 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Nobody ever asked anybody to take Trump's word on vaccine efficacy.  That was and still is a strawman. 

It is absolutely not a strawman. Nothing that came out of that administration was the result of good process. The one thing that would be most politically expedient from that administration would absolutely be suspect.

[MonkeyDoughnut 10,353]

44 minutes ago, C-Man said:

Jesus f'in Christ, we're 18 months into this shit. Are cloth masks as good as N95 masks? No, of course not. But if I wear a cloth mask and you wear a cloth mask we're actually both very well protected. The virus is best passed through water droplets and particles that are too big to pass through cloth masks (and even gaiters -- sort of). If everybody fucking wore gaiters and nothing else, Delta wouldn't be tearing a new asshole in SEC country.

So are we not allowed to use new "science" discovered in those 18 months that changes originally theory on the spread? Both WHO and CDC in May changed their guidelines because of it. The aerosol spread is of more concern that the droplets because they droplet spread tends to occur when people are already showing symptoms and not during the 1-2 days before when they are most contagious. 

Maybe cloth masks have some use, but if medical masks show 10x greater efficacy why are a large number of people still using cloth masks when there is a proven better available option available?  If you are going to mandate, why set the bar lower than it could be?

[Guest Lobo]

3 minutes ago, MonkeyDoughnut said:

So are we not allowed to use new "science" discovered in those 18 months that changes originally theory on the spread? Both WHO and CDC in May changed their guidelines because of it. The aerosol spread is of more concern that the droplets because they droplet spread tends to occur when people are already showing symptoms and not during the 1-2 days before when they are most contagious. 

Maybe cloth masks have some use, but if medical masks show 10x greater efficacy why are a large number of people still using cloth masks when there is a proven better available option available?  If you are going to mandate, why set the bar lower than it could be?

Because we’re America.  Lowering the bar is the 14th stripe. 

[HenryJames 66,160]

[DigglerontheHoof 21,215]

and the grift goes on...

[Anastasis 23,481]

27 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

You know this, you just like going big brane on Fauci.

[cactusflinthead 27,601]

Many feed stores across North Texas told WFAA they are sold out of ivermectin. Meredith said his supplier told him they can't get it for him.

“Nobody’s got it,” Meredith said. “You can’t even order it online.”

Meredith’s major concern is he can’t get it for customers who need it to keep livestock healthy.

He said those who don’t often ask strange questions.

“They ask for ivermectin or iver-medicine or whatever the case may be,” he said. “This is for livestock. I mean, one tube will treat a 1,250 horse.”

https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/texas-sees-spike-in-poison-calls-for-horse-and-cow-dewormer-ivermectin-despite-fda-warning/287-57a97ba4-ea7a-42b7-adda-e8618b35d9fd

 

[hookem2010 2,625]

I'll also ask again, what is going on with Florida's death from Covid numbers?
They are churning out in excess of 20,000 new cases/day and their death rate has plummeted from a high of 170/day two weeks ago to a 7 day MA From the Herald, but that just does not seem to explain the sudden change.  Seems like FLorida bullshit to me:
On Aug. 10, the CDC changed the way it reported new cases and deaths in Florida. Cases and deaths used to be logged as total new cases reported on a single day. Now, Florida is reporting cases by the “case date,” according to the CDC rather than the date the case was logged into the system. The result of this change is a lag in cases by date and a significant number of cases backfilling over time.
 

The Herald will continue to report numbers based on the difference in total cases from one day to the next, as this is consistent with the way data have been presented in daily stories since the beginning of the pandemic.

The Herald will report deaths the same way, after pulling the raw data from the CDC website.

As a result, the “new cases” and “new deaths” listed on the CDC site for any given day may be different than numbers published by the Herald for the same day.

According to a statement from CDC spokesperson Jasmine Reed on Aug. 18: “Florida’s aggregate case and death data includes case date for cases and date of death for deaths. The method applies to data shared by Florida and to data displayed on COVID Data Tracker. Other States also use this reporting method and states can vary in the reporting method. For example, data as of the date that states submit may be the date that a state received its data from its reporting entities, or it might be another dating method that the state prefers.”

DOH spokesperson Weesam Khoury said Florida’s new reporting system “will ensure that continuous epidemiological analyses provide the most updated data to the public.” Neither agency provided further explanation of how a “case date” is assigned to each new case.

I believe they're dropping a 900+ death total today. Not sure what's up with their reporting now.

[4th&Five 41,586]

 

[cactusflinthead 27,601]

The Florida Hospital Association is sounding the alarm, saying a survey shows 68 hospitals have less than a 48-hour supply of oxygen. 

Hospitals are using three to four times as much oxygen as they were before the pandemic because more than 17,000 patients are hospitalized statewide with COVID-19. The FHA survey, which was done today, shows 68 hospitals have less than 48 hours worth of supply, with about half of these have less than 36 hours.

https://www.wmfe.org/survey-68-florida-hospitals-have-less-than-48-hours-worth-of-oxygen/188797

[JimmyJames 12,271]

16 minutes ago, cactusflinthead said:

Many feed stores across North Texas told WFAA they are sold out of ivermectin. Meredith said his supplier told him they can't get it for him.

“Nobody’s got it,” Meredith said. “You can’t even order it online.”

Meredith’s major concern is he can’t get it for customers who need it to keep livestock healthy.

He said those who don’t often ask strange questions.

“They ask for ivermectin or iver-medicine or whatever the case may be,” he said. “This is for livestock. I mean, one tube will treat a 1,250 horse.”

https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/texas-sees-spike-in-poison-calls-for-horse-and-cow-dewormer-ivermectin-despite-fda-warning/287-57a97ba4-ea7a-42b7-adda-e8618b35d9fd

 

Trump America 

[MonkeyDoughnut 10,353]

1 hour ago, Captainant said:

I posted this over a year ago - but Duke did an empirical study of several different types of facemasks to measure their efficacy in blocking exhaled droplets - which are the main mechanism used by COVID to spread.

https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/6/36/eabd3083

While a cloth mask isn't as effective as surgical or N95 mask, they're still a significant (~90%) improvement in stopping droplets, relative to nothing.

"exhaled droplets - which are the main mechanism used by COVID to spread"

That's not the scientific belief anymore. It's now thought to be aerosol transmission which is the primary mechanism.  Cloth masks are great against droplets, just like staying more than 6ft apart is but they don't do much for aerosol transmission.

[Longhorn_Fan68 33,887]

 

[MC Fresh Breath 4,074]

4 minutes ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

 

 

More like swine flu amirite?

 

[Captainant 27,727]

3 minutes ago, MonkeyDoughnut said:

"exhaled droplets - which are the main mechanism used by COVID to spread"

That's not the scientific belief anymore. It's now thought to be aerosol transmission which is the primary mechanism.  Cloth masks are great against droplets, just like staying more than 6ft apart is but they don't do much for aerosol transmission.

...you do know that aerosols are just droplets suspended in air, right?

But you're right, a single layer cloth mask isn't all that great, but from data in the linked study that literally measured the size and quantity of exhaled droplets/aerosols, a 3 layer cloth mask is within margin of error of being as effective as a surgical mask. 

Turns out the bigger factor than material is how well it seals and conforms to your face.

Seriously, give that study a read to see their methodology and results. It's good science. 

[MC Fresh Breath 4,074]

 

Fuck Around And Go Broke (even if you don't croak)

[Anastasis 23,481]

5 minutes ago, Captainant said:

...you do know that aerosols are just droplets suspended in air, right?

[Captainant 27,727]

5 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Lolwut? Please clarify if I'm wrong here. Or let your contrarian brainworms do their thing, mang

[Anastasis 23,481]

1 minute ago, Captainant said:

Lolwut? Please clarify if I'm wrong here. Or let your contrarian brainworms do their thing, mang

Go find a server to reboot bro. 

Respiratory droplets and aerosols can be generated by various expiratory activities. Advances in aerosol measurement techniques, such as aerodynamic and scanning mobility particle sizing, have shown that the majority of exhaled aerosols are smaller than 5 μm, and a large fraction are <1 μm for most respiratory activities, including those produced during breathing, talking, and coughing. Exhaled aerosols occur in multiple size modes that are associated with different generation sites and production mechanisms in the respiratory tract. Although 5 μm has been used historically to distinguish aerosols from droplets, the size distinction between aerosols and droplets should be 100 μm, which represents the largest particle size that can remain suspended in still air for more than 5 s from a height of 1.5 m, typically reach a distance of 1 to 2 m from the emitter (depending on the velocity of airflow carrying the aerosols), and can be inhaled. Aerosols produced by an infected individual may contain infectious viruses, and studies have shown that viruses are enriched in small aerosols (<5 μm). The transport of virus-laden aerosols is affected by the physicochemical properties of aerosols themselves and environmental factors, including temperature, relative humidity, ultraviolet radiation, airflow, and ventilation. Once inhaled, virus-laden aerosols can deposit in different parts of the respiratory tract. Larger aerosols tend to be deposited in the upper airway; however, smaller aerosols, although they can also be deposited there, can penetrate deep into the alveolar region of the lungs. The strong effect of ventilation on transmission, the distinct difference between indoor and outdoor transmission, well-documented long-range transmission, the observed transmission of SARS-CoV-2 despite the use of masks and eye protection, the high frequency of indoor superspreading events of SARS-CoV-2, animal experiments, and airflow simulations provide strong and unequivocal evidence for airborne transmission. Fomite transmission of SARS-CoV-2 has been found to be far less efficient, and droplets are only dominant when individuals are within 0.2 m of each other when talking. Although both aerosols and droplets can be produced by infected individuals during expiratory activities, droplets fall quickly to the ground or surfaces within seconds, leaving an enrichment of aerosols over droplets. The airborne pathway likely contributes to the spread of other respiratory viruses whose transmission was previously characterized as droplet driven. The World Health Organization (WHO) and the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) have officially acknowledged the inhalation of virus-laden aerosols as a main transmission mode in spreading COVID-19 at both short and long ranges in 2021.

[Beau Vine 54,384]

59 minutes ago, MonkeyDoughnut said:

Maybe cloth masks have some use, but if medical masks show 10x greater efficacy why are a large number of people still using cloth masks when there is a proven better available option available?  If you are going to mandate, why set the bar lower than it could be?