CR: COVID-19 --Political Talk

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19,101]

26 minutes ago, Skipper said:

I'm vaxed/boosted so on your 'team' in that regard, but let's be honest, there is literally nothing we could have done to not still be in this pandemic right now.  Lashing out at unvaxed as the reason we're all still having to deal with this just doesn't have a scientific basis.  And that is what all of the "mask mandate" and "vax mandate" folks don't seem to appreciate.  Virus gonna virus.  Omicron was going to blow through regardless.  Period. I saw things pretty much the exact way you did 6 months ago but it's ok to change your opinions as the science and data changes.   

At this point the unvaxed population has next to zero impact on any of our lives.  Vaxed are infected and spreading the virus just like unvaxed.  In some instances maybe more so considering a young boosted person may mistake omicron for a minor cold or allergies if they don't test.   Additionally, our hospitals just aren't filling up with Omicron.  That has a lot to do with the vaxed population but it also has a lot to do with the vast amount of natural immunity providing protection against severe disease.  And yes, that's a real thing and data proves it out.  

What concerns me is those that continue to push mandates when they really can't be supported by science is that if we get another variant that spreads like Omicron but is as severe as Delta and escapes immune protection where mandates, shutdowns, etc. might be needed, we're fucked.  Because we're losing a lot of credibility right now.  

So many "scientists" are so dug in with Covid fear mongering they refuse to change their tone or change advice/guidance as the facts change.   It's a real problem IMO and indicative of the 'tribalism' in society.    Good video (I still haven't gotten all the way through) touching on Covid triabilism here.  https://zdoggmd.com/z-blogg/

 

Actually, there are things we could have done to at least be having a better time of it.  I am really tired of people saying there is nothing more we could have done.  There absolutely is.  The fact that we had the leaders of the federal government LYING for the first 6-9 months of this shit is a problem.  The fact that we have 40% of our population that are anti-vaxx morons is a problem.  Unfortunately, not enough of them died.  

[HenryJames 66,052]

33 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

but the “healthy” 50 yo fatass is (probably) out of the woods

[Johnny Sack 8,397]

85% of adults in the USA have at least one shot.

[4th&Five 41,549]

I'm not sure 1 shot last January means shit right now.

[yoladu 4,094]

it's crazy. this country is currently averaging 2,000+ deaths a day from Covid-19.

It was never that high for most of the bad ole days of 2020 (lockdown worked, but realistically not sustainable)

We have pretty much decided we can live with 2,000 deaths a day, I guess.

Let's hope this Omicron variant burns itself out, but hope is not the best strategy.

[Immaculate Vibes 114]

On 1/17/2022 at 5:51 PM, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

This is just fucking stupid.  Of course, it is in the WSJ which used to be Center Right but has been swinging further and further right.  I hope NYC keeps its vaccine passports and requirements/mandates in place.  Fuck the stupid and selfish.  

Also, France is looking to make their vaccine passports even more restrictive where you have to be vaccinated and cannot test out.  Bravo.  And on that front, that means Djokovic might not get to play the French Open as it would apply to sporting arenas and there are NO exceptions.  Fuck around and find out.  Stop being pussies and get fucking vaccinated.

Here you go, PW. No more proof of vaccine or Covid tests required as of next week in UK. Looks like Djoker can maybe at least do Wimbledon if he wants. No more mask mandate. This sentiment will spread, thankfully. 
 

 

 

[Sawbonz 27,561]

7 minutes ago, yoladu said:

it's crazy. this country is currently averaging 2,000+ deaths a day from Covid-19.

It was never that high for most of the bad ole days of 2020 (lockdown worked, but realistically not sustainable)

We have pretty much decided we can live with 2,000 deaths a day, I guess.

Let's hope this Omicron variant burns itself out, but hope is not the best strategy.

We are at about 60% of average deaths a year ago with a much more transmissible strain and higher case counts. 7 day Avg daily cases 260k this time last year and 760k now. Both of the level one trauma centers I work at sent emails last week saying they expected hospitalizations to peak this week without causing undue stress on the ICUs. There is no plan to pause non-urgent surgeries. Everyone who wants a vaccination can get one at this point or a booster as needed. what else would you recommend doing?

[HenryJames 66,052]

19 minutes ago, Immaculate Vibes said:

Here you go, PW. No more proof of vaccine or Covid tests required as of next week in UK. Looks like Djoker can maybe at least do Wimbledon if he wants. No more mask mandate. This sentiment will spread, thankfully. 
 

 

 

Wonder what caused Johnson to do that? 

[TurkeyChew 383]

https://katv.com/news/nation-world/half-of-dems-believe-fines-prison-time-appropriate-for-questioning-vaccine-poll-says

I'll just leave this here:

WASHINGTON (TND) — A majority of Democrats support punitive and restrictive policies against the unvaccinated, according to the results of a new poll.

A recent national telephone and online survey from The Heartland Institute and Rasmussen Reports says respondents who claimed to be Democrats supported a sort of house arrest for the unvaccinated, among other punishments and deterrents.

Almost half of Democrats who voted in the poll think state and federal governments should be allowed to either fine or imprison those who publicly question COVID-19 vaccine efficacy.

Forty-eight percent of Democrats taking the poll were in support of the criminal punishment of vaccine critics, whether the criticism appeared on television, radio, or even on social media. Overall, only twenty-seven percent of all respondents were in support of the punishment.

The poll also reportedly says it answers just how far Democrats are willing to go to punish those refusing to get the vaccine. Forty-five percent of Democrats who took the poll were in favor of the government forcing people who refuse the vaccine to live in designated facilities or locations. Twenty-nine percent of Democrats who took the poll reportedly say they would be in support of parents who are against getting vaccinated losing custody of their children.

Two-thirds of Democrat respondents to the poll were in support of the government using digital devices to track the unvaccinated to ensure they socially distance and remain properly quarantined.

While Democrat respondents seemed to either be split or in favor of these theoretical policies, Republican voters and others were often very much opposed to them. Seventy-eight percent of Republican respondents were against putting vaccine refusers into camps and only fourteen percent of Republican respondents favored criminal punishments for those who refuse vaccines.

The split is apparent all across the poll. Respondents were reportedly split on President Joe Biden's COVID-19 vaccine mandate for American businesses, with about forty-eight percent supporting it and forty-eight percent opposing it.

The vaccine mandate was recently put to a halt by the Supreme Court, which said the Biden administration overstepped the authority of the Occupational Safety and Health Administration by seeking to impose the vaccination requirement.

[4th&Five 41,549]

I wouldn’t throw them in prison. I’d kick all their asses out of hospitals though. 

[HenryJames 66,052]

3 minutes ago, TurkeyChew said:

from The Heartland Institute and Rasmussen Reports

 

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19,101]

37 minutes ago, Immaculate Vibes said:

Here you go, PW. No more proof of vaccine or Covid tests required as of next week in UK. Looks like Djoker can maybe at least do Wimbledon if he wants. No more mask mandate. This sentiment will spread, thankfully. 
 

 

 

83.5% of people 12 and over in the UK are double vaxxed with over 63% of them having a booster or 3rd dose.  

Compare that to the US numbers, numbnuts.  

[aggie08 21,504]

The Heartland Institute? Jesus fucking Christ, you guys aren't even trying anymore. Can I get the latest updates from Kevin Sorbo and Jon Voight?

[DDD Dad 14,339]

On 1/18/2022 at 8:31 AM, Bama Chick said:

Ahhhh immortal is back.

[Dahobbs 17,534]

14 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

We are at about 60% of average deaths a year ago with a much more transmissible strain and higher case counts. 7 day Avg daily cases 260k this time last year and 760k now. Both of the level one trauma centers I work at sent emails last week saying they expected hospitalizations to peak this week without causing undue stress on the ICUs. There is no plan to pause non-urgent surgeries. Everyone who wants a vaccination can get one at this point or a booster as needed. what else would you recommend doing?

Other than force everyone to get vaccinated, I don't know there is much we really can do. But I think the big point here is how much we've become accustomed to this fairly crazy daily death total. Pre pandemic we average 7.7k daily deaths from all causes. 

The CDC excess death data is illustrative. 

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm

We've just grown accustomed to a lot of extra people dying every week. We are talking 10k to 20k additional deaths every week over the recent surge, or 2 to 7 911s every week. And I'm guilty of the same feelings at this point. But, looking at the actual numbers still blows my mind. 

N.B. the lower numbers to the right of the chart aren't reliable indicators of a down turn due to reporting delays. 

[Immaculate Vibes 114]

2 minutes ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

83.5% of people 12 and over in the UK are double vaxxed with over 63% of them having a booster or 3rd dose.  

Compare that to the US numbers, numbnuts.  

Should boosters be mandated here?

[jimmyjazz 45,945]

10 minutes ago, TurkeyChew said:

Almost half of Democrats who voted in the poll think state and federal governments should be allowed to either fine or imprison those who publicly question COVID-19 vaccine efficacy.

Bullshit.

Quote

Forty-eight percent of Democrats taking the poll were in support of the criminal punishment of vaccine critics, whether the criticism appeared on television, radio, or even on social media.

Bullshit.

Quote

Twenty-nine percent of Democrats who took the poll reportedly say they would be in support of parents who are against getting vaccinated losing custody of their children.

Bullshit.

 

[JimmyJames 12,271]

3 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

The Heartland Institute? Jesus fucking Christ, you guys aren't even trying anymore. Can I get the latest updates from Kevin Sorbo and Jon Voight?

Some people support five dollar fines for the unvaccinated , while some people (maybe) support 100 year prison sentences. 

It’s basically the same position. 
 

How many clicks did we get? 

[Dahobbs 17,534]

10 minutes ago, TurkeyChew said:

https://katv.com/news/nation-world/half-of-dems-believe-fines-prison-time-appropriate-for-questioning-vaccine-poll-says

I'll just leave this here:

WASHINGTON (TND) — A majority of Democrats support punitive and restrictive policies against the unvaccinated, according to the results of a new poll.

A recent national telephone and online survey from The Heartland Institute and Rasmussen Reports says respondents who claimed to be Democrats supported a sort of house arrest for the unvaccinated, among other punishments and deterrents.

Almost half of Democrats who voted in the poll think state and federal governments should be allowed to either fine or imprison those who publicly question COVID-19 vaccine efficacy.

Forty-eight percent of Democrats taking the poll were in support of the criminal punishment of vaccine critics, whether the criticism appeared on television, radio, or even on social media. Overall, only twenty-seven percent of all respondents were in support of the punishment.

The poll also reportedly says it answers just how far Democrats are willing to go to punish those refusing to get the vaccine. Forty-five percent of Democrats who took the poll were in favor of the government forcing people who refuse the vaccine to live in designated facilities or locations. Twenty-nine percent of Democrats who took the poll reportedly say they would be in support of parents who are against getting vaccinated losing custody of their children.

Two-thirds of Democrat respondents to the poll were in support of the government using digital devices to track the unvaccinated to ensure they socially distance and remain properly quarantined.

While Democrat respondents seemed to either be split or in favor of these theoretical policies, Republican voters and others were often very much opposed to them. Seventy-eight percent of Republican respondents were against putting vaccine refusers into camps and only fourteen percent of Republican respondents favored criminal punishments for those who refuse vaccines.

The split is apparent all across the poll. Respondents were reportedly split on President Joe Biden's COVID-19 vaccine mandate for American businesses, with about forty-eight percent supporting it and forty-eight percent opposing it.

The vaccine mandate was recently put to a halt by the Supreme Court, which said the Biden administration overstepped the authority of the Occupational Safety and Health Administration by seeking to impose the vaccination requirement.

Personally, I'm in favor of forced sterilization of this poster. But that's just me. I'm a punitive measures kind of guy. 

[JimmyJames 12,271]

2 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Bullshit.

Bullshit.

Bullshit.

 

But he’s gots all da facts! 

[JimmyJames 12,271]

Just now, Dahobbs said:

Personally, I'm in favor of forced sterilization of this poster. But that's just me. I'm a punitive measures kind of guy. 

I’m 120 percent in support of this position. 

[HenryJames 66,052]

Pretty sure Rasmussen will let you poll at 120%.

[Skipper 6,135]

1 hour ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

Actually, there are things we could have done to at least be having a better time of it.  I am really tired of people saying there is nothing more we could have done.  There absolutely is.  The fact that we had the leaders of the federal government LYING for the first 6-9 months of this shit is a problem.  The fact that we have 40% of our population that are anti-vaxx morons is a problem.  Unfortunately, not enough of them died.  

I'm talking about now.  Not 18 months ago.  Not 6 months ago.  

Because the reality is right now those "anti-vaxx morons" aren't impacting your life.  They are putting themselves at risk, sure, but a big reason many of them are so dug in is because of the constant bullshit and COVID theatre from the fear mongerers.   

It isn't hard to have basic common sense and see a lot of the mandates and restrictions make zero sense.   So some people are inherently going take that small piece of unnecessary government control and question EVERYTHING the govt is telling them.   Like when I was at a convention in Vegas and the bars were absolutely packed with patrons drinking unmasked (allowed since drinking), but then to walk through the empty casino floor you had to wear a mask.

Or, the more recent development of the CDC recommending 12-17 year olds "SHOULD" get boosted.   With absolutely zero discussion on what benefits there are to this extremely low risk population (spoiler alert, there isn't any data showing a booster benefit to a healthy 12-17 year old who's risk of sever disease is miniscule without vaccination much less 2X vax).

There are lots of examples.   Way too many people are still operating like "zero covid" is an actual strategy or should be a goal.   Even Fauci said last week it will be endemic and just about everyone will get it over the next year.  So accepting that statement as fact, maybe it's time to adjust our strategy and goals?

On the back end of this wave, the govt absolutely needs to pull their head out of their ass and provide realistic guidance and back off mandates if they want to have any chance society takes them seriously when people actually need to listen.

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19,101]

4 minutes ago, Skipper said:

I'm talking about now.  Not 18 months ago.  Not 6 months ago.  

Because the reality is right now those "anti-vaxx morons" aren't impacting your life.  They are putting themselves at risk, sure, but a big reason many of them are so dug in is because of the constant bullshit and COVID theatre from the fear mongerers.   

It isn't hard to have basic common sense and see a lot of the mandates and restrictions make zero sense.   So some people are inherently going take that small piece of unnecessary government control and question EVERYTHING the govt is telling them.   Like when I was at a convention in Vegas and the bars were absolutely packed with patrons drinking unmasked (allowed since drinking), but then to walk through the empty casino floor you had to wear a mask.

Or, the more recent development of the CDC recommending 12-17 year olds "SHOULD" get boosted.   With absolutely zero discussion on what benefits there are to this extremely low risk population (spoiler alert, there isn't any data showing a booster benefit to a healthy 12-17 year old who's risk of sever disease is miniscule without vaccination much less 2X vax).

There are lots of examples.   Way too many people are still operating like "zero covid" is an actual strategy or should be a goal.   Even Fauci said last week it will be endemic and just about everyone will get it over the next year.  So accepting that statement as fact, maybe it's time to adjust our strategy and goals?

On the back end of this wave, the govt absolutely needs to pull their head out of their ass and provide realistic guidance and back off mandates if they want to have any chance society takes them seriously when people actually need to listen.

Anti-vaxx assholes do impact my life.  Anti-vaxx idiots are protesting all over New York City and have been since the vaccine passports and mandates started.  They choose to remain unmasked and unvaxxed, so yeah, they fucking impact my life and everyone else who lives here.  

[Skipper 6,135]

11 minutes ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

Anti-vaxx assholes do impact my life.  Anti-vaxx idiots are protesting all over New York City and have been since the vaccine passports and mandates started.  They choose to remain unmasked and unvaxxed, so yeah, they fucking impact my life and everyone else who lives here.  

By that measure protests and protestors of any and all kinds impact your life including those you agree with.    

[MC Fresh Breath 4,074]

22 minutes ago, Skipper said:

Because the reality is right now those "anti-vaxx morons" aren't impacting your life.  

 

Unless you're over 65 and/or care about people over 65?  Or maybe if you're immunocompromised?   

Quote

a big reason many of them are so dug in is because of the constant bullshit and COVID theatre from the fear mongerers.   

Actually, most of them are dug in because they are incredibly stupid.  Knuckle draggers who not only can't spell, but can't type.  Can't seem to handle even the most basic of logical constructs.  Some of them are considering nebulizing hydrogen peroxide.  Most of them think the 'blood of Jesus' protects them.  They proudly proclaim "I got an immune system" without seemingly understanding what that is or how vaccines help them.  Wearing a mask marks you as a 'sheep' but  these obese mentally deficient walking co-morbidities are somehow lions. All independent thinking lions who re-tweet from the same meme factory and parrot whatever Fox is telling them to parrot.  Who think "let's go Brandon" is a clever retort.

And many of them combine that incredible lack of intelligence with an astounding amount of hate for any other human being who would dare suggest they love their neighbor as themselves.  

And while yeah, some mixed messaging hasn't helped overall, it doesn't really matter.  These are idiots who think Candace Owen memes are the way to live their lives.  I really had no idea who she was until I started browsing all their entries on sorryantivaxxer or r/hermancainaward.  The 'mongering' is all the media they apparently consume 24/7.    And at the end, they'll run to the hospital and clog it up (which is another way they are absolutely impacting us, btw)  while calling on the 'prayer warriors' to help them before the go fund me for the funeral is set up.

The idea that 'covid fear mongers' (I've yet to see one of these, btw) are causing the stupid to not get vaccinated is a pretty damn flawed idea, imo.

Edited January 19, 2022 by MC Fresh Breath

[Skipper 6,135]

2 minutes ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

Unless you're over 65 and/or care about people over 65?  Or maybe if you're immunocompromised?   

 

If you are over 65 or immunocompromised how is an anti-vaxxer impacting your life?  If you are a doctor or nurse having to work harder during this surge then you have an argument.   The reality is they haven't really "clogged up hospitals" to an extent it impacted the public during this surge with limited exceptions.  This isn't Delta.

[Longhorn_Fan68 33,870]

3 minutes ago, Skipper said:

If you are over 65 or immunocompromised how is an anti-vaxxer impacting your life?  If you are a doctor or nurse having to work harder during this surge then you have an argument.   The reality is they haven't really "clogged up hospitals" to an extent it impacted the public during this surge with limited exceptions.  This isn't Delta.

did covid write this?

[hobbes2702 13,033]

3 minutes ago, Skipper said:

If you are over 65 or immunocompromised how is an anti-vaxxer impacting your life?  If you are a doctor or nurse having to work harder during this surge then you have an argument.   The reality is they haven't really "clogged up hospitals" to an extent it impacted the public during this surge with limited exceptions.  This isn't Delta.

Ummm by putting you at increased risk for a potentially deadly virus? What are you talking about 

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19,101]

30 minutes ago, Skipper said:

I'm talking about now.  Not 18 months ago.  Not 6 months ago.  

Because the reality is right now those "anti-vaxx morons" aren't impacting your life.  They are putting themselves at risk, sure, but a big reason many of them are so dug in is because of the constant bullshit and COVID theatre from the fear mongerers.   

It isn't hard to have basic common sense and see a lot of the mandates and restrictions make zero sense.   So some people are inherently going take that small piece of unnecessary government control and question EVERYTHING the govt is telling them.   Like when I was at a convention in Vegas and the bars were absolutely packed with patrons drinking unmasked (allowed since drinking), but then to walk through the empty casino floor you had to wear a mask.

Or, the more recent development of the CDC recommending 12-17 year olds "SHOULD" get boosted.   With absolutely zero discussion on what benefits there are to this extremely low risk population (spoiler alert, there isn't any data showing a booster benefit to a healthy 12-17 year old who's risk of sever disease is miniscule without vaccination much less 2X vax).

There are lots of examples.   Way too many people are still operating like "zero covid" is an actual strategy or should be a goal.   Even Fauci said last week it will be endemic and just about everyone will get it over the next year.  So accepting that statement as fact, maybe it's time to adjust our strategy and goals?

On the back end of this wave, the govt absolutely needs to pull their head out of their ass and provide realistic guidance and back off mandates if they want to have any chance society takes them seriously when people actually need to listen.

This is a very bad and very stupid take.  

[JimmyJames 12,271]

35 minutes ago, Skipper said:

I'm talking about now.  Not 18 months ago.  Not 6 months ago.  

Because the reality is right now those "anti-vaxx morons" aren't impacting your life.  They are putting themselves at risk, sure, but a big reason many of them are so dug in is because of the constant bullshit and COVID theatre from the fear mongerers.   

It isn't hard to have basic common sense and see a lot of the mandates and restrictions make zero sense.   So some people are inherently going take that small piece of unnecessary government control and question EVERYTHING the govt is telling them.   Like when I was at a convention in Vegas and the bars were absolutely packed with patrons drinking unmasked (allowed since drinking), but then to walk through the empty casino floor you had to wear a mask.

Or, the more recent development of the CDC recommending 12-17 year olds "SHOULD" get boosted.   With absolutely zero discussion on what benefits there are to this extremely low risk population (spoiler alert, there isn't any data showing a booster benefit to a healthy 12-17 year old who's risk of sever disease is miniscule without vaccination much less 2X vax).

There are lots of examples.   Way too many people are still operating like "zero covid" is an actual strategy or should be a goal.   Even Fauci said last week it will be endemic and just about everyone will get it over the next year.  So accepting that statement as fact, maybe it's time to adjust our strategy and goals?

On the back end of this wave, the govt absolutely needs to pull their head out of their ass and provide realistic guidance and back off mandates if they want to have any chance society takes them seriously when people actually need to listen.

The anti vax morons are not endangering my life but they are endangering the lives of olds and people with certain medical issues which basically makes the anti vax morons evil as shit, not fit for society, and worthy of much more scorn than they are currently getting. They’re getting off way too easy and go fuck yourself for lending them any modicum of support since you are complicit. Got it? 

[JimmyJames 12,271]

If the anti vax morons and posters had their way we would still be dealing with smallpox and polio. They can stick their biggest dildo straight up their ass. We should be treating these people much more harshly than we are. 

Edited January 19, 2022 by JimmyJames

[Skipper 6,135]

42 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Ummm by putting you at increased risk for a potentially deadly virus? What are you talking about 

 

34 minutes ago, JimmyJames said:

The anti vax morons are not endangering my life but they are endangering the lives of olds and people with certain medical issues which basically makes the anti vax morons evil as shit, not fit for society, and worthy of much more scorn than they are currently getting. They’re getting off way too easy and go fuck yourself for lending them any modicum of support since you are complicit. Got it? 

 

How? 

This is what Covid Fear Mongerers refuse to acknowledge.   Omcicron is not OG or Alpha.  It's contagious as fuck and evades vaccines.  Vaccinated individuals are being infected and spreading this virus just as easily as unvaccinated.   Do you people honestly think that if you went into a packed restaurant where everyone was vaccinated and boosted you aren't at risk from contracting Omicron?  I know an instance of a 10 person dinner party, all vaxed, where every single person got it after someone became symptomatic the next day.  My vaxed cousin was in a conference room for 1 hour with 1 other person last week, both wearing masks, and got it last week after that person became symptomatic the next day.

Like Fauci said, EVERYONE is getting Omicron within the next year.  It's too contagious.  Mask, no masks, vax, no vax, it doesn't matter. Zero Covid is never going to happen.  And guess what, if you are vaxed, you will probably be ok.

[Skipper 6,135]

48 minutes ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

This is a very bad and very stupid take.  

Great rebuttal. 

[hobbes2702 13,033]

6 minutes ago, Skipper said:

 

 

How? 

This is what Covid Fear Mongerers refuse to acknowledge.   Omcicron is not OG or Alpha.  It's contagious as fuck and evades vaccines.  Vaccinated individuals are being infected and spreading this virus just as easily as unvaccinated.   Do you people honestly think that if you went into a packed restaurant where everyone was vaccinated and boosted you aren't at risk from contracting Omicron?  I know an instance of a 10 person dinner party, all vaxed, where every single person got it after someone became symptomatic the next day.  My vaxed cousin was in a conference room for 1 hour with 1 other person last week, both wearing masks, and got it last week after that person became symptomatic the next day.

Like Fauci said, EVERYONE is getting Omicron within the next year.  It's too contagious.  Mask, no masks, vax, no vax, it doesn't matter. Zero Covid is never going to happen.  And guess what, if you are vaxed, you will probably be ok.

People can’t die from Omicron? Specifically old people and immunocrompromised?

People with a vaccine are still less likely to spread. It’s not zero. No one is asking it to be. But less chance is still less chance. This is like the stupid mask arguments with the “masks don’t work” morons. Less than 100% effective is still more than 0%.

Edited January 19, 2022 by hobbes2702

[Foosters 17,856]

6 minutes ago, Skipper said:

 

 

How? 

This is what Covid Fear Mongerers refuse to acknowledge.   Omcicron is not OG or Alpha.  It's contagious as fuck and evades vaccines.  Vaccinated individuals are being infected and spreading this virus just as easily as unvaccinated.   Do you people honestly think that if you went into a packed restaurant where everyone was vaccinated and boosted you aren't at risk from contracting Omicron?  I know an instance of a 10 person dinner party, all vaxed, where every single person got it after someone became symptomatic the next day.  My vaxed cousin was in a conference room for 1 hour with 1 other person last week, both wearing masks, and got it last week after that person became symptomatic the next day.

Like Fauci said, EVERYONE is getting Omicron within the next year.  It's too contagious.  Mask, no masks, vax, no vax, it doesn't matter. Zero Covid is never going to happen.  And guess what, if you are vaxed, you will probably be ok.

Do we have any interest in ensuring our hospitals aren't crammed with unvaxxed suffering from complications? Does our society have any interest in ensuring that our medical community is not dealing with highly contagious covid patients? Are you ok with hospitals turning away unvaxxed patients seeking care for complications related to covid?

[MC Fresh Breath 4,074]

Others have covered it well for me. But I'll also offer the aside that people are still going to the hospital from Delta as well. 

 

 

[lemonlime 5,503]

24 minutes ago, Skipper said:

 

 

How? 

This is what Covid Fear Mongerers refuse to acknowledge.   Omcicron is not OG or Alpha.  It's contagious as fuck and evades vaccines.  Vaccinated individuals are being infected and spreading this virus just as easily as unvaccinated.   Do you people honestly think that if you went into a packed restaurant where everyone was vaccinated and boosted you aren't at risk from contracting Omicron?  I know an instance of a 10 person dinner party, all vaxed, where every single person got it after someone became symptomatic the next day.  My vaxed cousin was in a conference room for 1 hour with 1 other person last week, both wearing masks, and got it last week after that person became symptomatic the next day.

Like Fauci said, EVERYONE is getting Omicron within the next year.  It's too contagious.  Mask, no masks, vax, no vax, it doesn't matter. Zero Covid is never going to happen.  And guess what, if you are vaxed, you will probably be ok.

And vaccinated people are far less likely to use up hospital resources for Omicron or suffer from long Covid symptoms, regardless of whether they can catch and transmit the disease.  Meanwhile, better have some thoughts and prayers that you don't get into a car accident or suffer a heart attack, and require emergency department resources that are being stretched to the breaking point because of unvaccinated assholes.

Edited January 19, 2022 by lemonlime

[Dahobbs 17,534]

30 minutes ago, Skipper said:

 

 

How? 

This is what Covid Fear Mongerers refuse to acknowledge.   Omcicron is not OG or Alpha.  It's contagious as fuck and evades vaccines.  Vaccinated individuals are being infected and spreading this virus just as easily as unvaccinated.   Do you people honestly think that if you went into a packed restaurant where everyone was vaccinated and boosted you aren't at risk from contracting Omicron?  I know an instance of a 10 person dinner party, all vaxed, where every single person got it after someone became symptomatic the next day.  My vaxed cousin was in a conference room for 1 hour with 1 other person last week, both wearing masks, and got it last week after that person became symptomatic the next day.

Like Fauci said, EVERYONE is getting Omicron within the next year.  It's too contagious.  Mask, no masks, vax, no vax, it doesn't matter. Zero Covid is never going to happen.  And guess what, if you are vaxed, you will probably be ok.

Yes, Omicron evades prior immunity protection from vaccination or exposure. Yes, in individuals who were either vaccinated or previously exposed, it is significantly less severe. However, there is no data that Omicron is substantially less severe in unexposed populations. In fact, the available data says its just as bad or at best ever slightly less severe. 

As to the impact on others, the issue of course is that there are still members of the population that can't get vaccinated or are still at elevated risk despite vaccination. My two 14 month year-old daughters are an example of the former and the elderly with risk factors are an example of the latter. I have to take more precautions because of anti-vaxxer assholes. If they would have (1) worn masks and/or (2) got vaccinated, we'd have had a much better shot of controlling Omicron or potentially even have avoided it all together. Further, those assholes take up valuable medical resources when they get sick (again, because Omicron is just as bad or perhaps ever so slightly less bad than other variants in severity for the unexposed). While it appears Texas so far isn't overwhelmed, medical resources in other areas are. When people who have been responsible and vaccinated get sick or hurt and have more limited treatment options due to anti-vaxxers, that is a fucking problem. 

In short, I don't entirely disagree with your general premise. But I think you've lost sight of some of the detail and the real harm that has occurred to others. 

Edited January 19, 2022 by Dahobbs

[Brisketexan 105,139]

6 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

But I think you've lost sight of some of the detail and the real harm that has occurred to others.

The anti-vax/vax defensive crowd cannot surrender that narrative.  Choosing not to get vaxxed is your choice and right, and since vaxxed people can get sick, there's no difference in the two paths and no impact on any other person!

It's demonstrably false.  Current information indicates that will both groups can transmit, vaccination at least somewhat reduces the transmissibility.  Current information strongly indicates that vaccination significantly reduces the likelihood of serious illness/hospitalization/ICU (for which we ALL pay, either via taxes or insurance).  Data indicates that medical resources in numerous locations ARE strained to hell by those hospital loads that are largely driven by the unvaxxed (and I have friends who are chaplains, and their PTSD -- ongoing -- is real.  Ministering to a lot of people dying miserably sucks).

Even taking the transmissibility out of the equation, the best you can argue is that hey, the unvaxxed are merely STRAINING our hospital resources and costing us lots of money -- they haven't BROKEN our resources or cost ALL the money.

Private choices, socialized consequences.  You know, the opposite of any intellectually honest definition of "liberty."

[Don Johnson 4,753]

12 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

 If they would have (1) worn masks and/or (2) got vaccinated, we'd have had a much better shot of controlling Omicron or potentially even have avoided it all together.

How?  

[lemonlime 5,503]

11 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

The anti-vax/vax defensive crowd cannot surrender that narrative.  Choosing not to get vaxxed is your choice and right, and since vaxxed people can get sick, there's no difference in the two paths and no impact on any other person!

It's demonstrably false.  Current information indicates that will both groups can transmit, vaccination at least somewhat reduces the transmissibility.  Current information strongly indicates that vaccination significantly reduces the likelihood of serious illness/hospitalization/ICU (for which we ALL pay, either via taxes or insurance).  Data indicates that medical resources in numerous locations ARE strained to hell by those hospital loads that are largely driven by the unvaxxed (and I have friends who are chaplains, and their PTSD -- ongoing -- is real.  Ministering to a lot of people dying miserably sucks).

Even taking the transmissibility out of the equation, the best you can argue is that hey, the unvaxxed are merely STRAINING our hospital resources and costing us lots of money -- they haven't BROKEN our resources or cost ALL the money.

Private choices, socialized consequences.  You know, the opposite of any intellectually honest definition of "liberty."

I'm sure the unvaccinated who get long Covid are going to keep working and not apply for Social Security Disability, Medicare or Medicaid.  You know, since socialism is bad.

[Longhorn_Fan68 33,870]

17 minutes ago, lemonlime said:

I'm sure the unvaccinated who get long Covid are going to keep working and not apply for Social Security Disability, Medicare or Medicaid.  You know, since socialism is bad.

and I'm sure they will pay for their long hospital stays, because they certainly don't want a handout

[Skipper 6,135]

24 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

 

Even taking the transmissibility out of the equation, the best you can argue is that hey, the unvaxxed are merely STRAINING our hospital resources and costing us lots of money -- they haven't BROKEN our resources or cost ALL the money.

Private choices, socialized consequences.  You know, the opposite of any intellectually honest definition of "liberty."

I don't have time right now to respond to every point in the last few posts.  A lot of which I've already addressed.   But I haven't noted in this thread but have in many others I absolutely think insurance companies should stop hospital coverage for unvaxed (at least above age 40 or whatever age around that point there is a material shift in severe Covid risk).  And a lot of what I'm writing about refer to policies post-Omicron although I haven't made that clear.  By 3/1, given the levels of vaccine + natural immunity I don't think mandates are justified. Natural consequences (personal health risk and no insurance coverage) absolutely.  But I believe 'mandates' should only be utilized when a massive societal benefit.  And I don't think we are there post omicron.  

The reality is we may have a horrible flu season in 22-23 after hardly any immunity the last 2 years.   Absent another Covid mutation, the flu could very well overtake Covid from a personal and societal risk perspective.   We've never mandated flu shots before (I get one every year).  Should we?  I just don't know where some folks that seem to be fixated on next to zero risk would draw the line.  Hell, my wife was hospitalized in her early 30's for 3 days from pneumonia post-flu.  It got worse before admitted because the hospital was overwhelmed with flu patients (it was a bad flu year) and shew as borderline so held off. She may very well have died if older and not super healthy (she now gets the flu shot ever year).  Absent a complete overhaul of the way we manage hospitals, the reality is hospital resources will be strained almost every December-February and some years a lot worse than others. Those are risks we all lived with for decades yet in a post-Omicron world I feel like many are going to have a hard time accepting risk again.  As for me, I'm going to get back to work so I can go to a Mavs game tonight.  

 

[Dahobbs 17,534]

1 minute ago, Don Johnson said:

How?  

Omicron and other variants arose because of a pool of people who weren't vaccinated. While this particular variant arose outside of the United States (as best we can tell), the general proposition is the same: the unvaccinated provide a safe haven for virus to spread and mutate. Had our population been fully vaccinated and taken precautions like proper mask use, Omicron would have spread much less quickly as both vaccination and mask use slows the spread. 

[JimmyJames 12,271]

1 hour ago, Skipper said:

 

 

How? 

This is what Covid Fear Mongerers refuse to acknowledge.   Omcicron is not OG or Alpha.  It's contagious as fuck and evades vaccines.  Vaccinated individuals are being infected and spreading this virus just as easily as unvaccinated.   Do you people honestly think that if you went into a packed restaurant where everyone was vaccinated and boosted you aren't at risk from contracting Omicron?  I know an instance of a 10 person dinner party, all vaxed, where every single person got it after someone became symptomatic the next day.  My vaxed cousin was in a conference room for 1 hour with 1 other person last week, both wearing masks, and got it last week after that person became symptomatic the next day.

Like Fauci said, EVERYONE is getting Omicron within the next year.  It's too contagious.  Mask, no masks, vax, no vax, it doesn't matter. Zero Covid is never going to happen.  And guess what, if you are vaxed, you will probably be ok.

This is what anti vaxxer morons refuse to acknowledge. The vaccine is safe. It works. It prevents hospitalization and disease and can get us out of this crap.

You want us to cater to your stupid ass whims and nonsensical fears.

Fuck off. Leave the country. I don’t care what you do to yourself just fucking leave. 

[JimmyJames 12,271]

31 minutes ago, Skipper said:

I don't have time right now to respond to every point in the last few posts.  A lot of which I've already addressed.   But I haven't noted in this thread but have in many others I absolutely think insurance companies should stop hospital coverage for unvaxed (at least above age 40 or whatever age around that point there is a material shift in severe Covid risk).  And a lot of what I'm writing about refer to policies post-Omicron although I haven't made that clear.  By 3/1, given the levels of vaccine + natural immunity I don't think mandates are justified. Natural consequences (personal health risk and no insurance coverage) absolutely.  But I believe 'mandates' should only be utilized when a massive societal benefit.  And I don't think we are there post omicron.  

The reality is we may have a horrible flu season in 22-23 after hardly any immunity the last 2 years.   Absent another Covid mutation, the flu could very well overtake Covid from a personal and societal risk perspective.   We've never mandated flu shots before (I get one every year).  Should we?  I just don't know where some folks that seem to be fixated on next to zero risk would draw the line.  Hell, my wife was hospitalized in her early 30's for 3 days from pneumonia post-flu.  It got worse before admitted because the hospital was overwhelmed with flu patients (it was a bad flu year) and shew as borderline so held off. She may very well have died if older and not super healthy (she now gets the flu shot ever year).  Absent a complete overhaul of the way we manage hospitals, the reality is hospital resources will be strained almost every December-February and some years a lot worse than others. Those are risks we all lived with for decades yet in a post-Omicron world I feel like many are going to have a hard time accepting risk again.  As for me, I'm going to get back to work so I can go to a Mavs game tonight.  

 

You are a fucking idiot. 
 

Enjoy the mavs game. 

[Dahobbs 17,534]

35 minutes ago, Skipper said:

I don't have time right now to respond to every point in the last few posts.  A lot of which I've already addressed.   But I haven't noted in this thread but have in many others I absolutely think insurance companies should stop hospital coverage for unvaxed (at least above age 40 or whatever age around that point there is a material shift in severe Covid risk).  And a lot of what I'm writing about refer to policies post-Omicron although I haven't made that clear.  By 3/1, given the levels of vaccine + natural immunity I don't think mandates are justified. Natural consequences (personal health risk and no insurance coverage) absolutely.  But I believe 'mandates' should only be utilized when a massive societal benefit.  And I don't think we are there post omicron.  

The reality is we may have a horrible flu season in 22-23 after hardly any immunity the last 2 years.   Absent another Covid mutation, the flu could very well overtake Covid from a personal and societal risk perspective.   We've never mandated flu shots before (I get one every year).  Should we?  I just don't know where some folks that seem to be fixated on next to zero risk would draw the line.  Hell, my wife was hospitalized in her early 30's for 3 days from pneumonia post-flu.  It got worse before admitted because the hospital was overwhelmed with flu patients (it was a bad flu year) and shew as borderline so held off. She may very well have died if older and not super healthy (she now gets the flu shot ever year).  Absent a complete overhaul of the way we manage hospitals, the reality is hospital resources will be strained almost every December-February and some years a lot worse than others. Those are risks we all lived with for decades yet in a post-Omicron world I feel like many are going to have a hard time accepting risk again.  As for me, I'm going to get back to work so I can go to a Mavs game tonight.  

 

Please take the time to address the posts regarding the people we can't currently vaccinate. I'd love to know why it doesn't matter that my daughters are at additional risk because of assholes. Personally, I think it matters. I think it is a concrete harm. Again, I have some sympathy for your broader point, but I really dislike the whitewashing of the physical and economic harm that anti-vaxxers have caused society.  

Any comparison to the flu vaccine is flawed. If we had a flu vaccine that was as effective as the Covid vaccines, particularly before the rise of Omicron as to total protection, I'm pretty sure it would be mandated in our vaccination schedules for school children. Unfortunately, the flu vaccines don't work that well. They don't provide the same level of protection against severe disease and don't prevent infections like the vaccine does for non-Omicron strains (and like presumably a Omicron specific vaccine would do for an Omicron strain). 

Edited January 19, 2022 by Dahobbs

[Don Johnson 4,753]

14 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

Omicron and other variants arose because of a pool of people who weren't vaccinated. While this particular variant arose outside of the United States (as best we can tell), the general proposition is the same: the unvaccinated provide a safe haven for virus to spread and mutate. Had our population been fully vaccinated and taken precautions like proper mask use, Omicron would have spread much less quickly as both vaccination and mask use slows the spread. 

We represent like 4% of the world’s unvaccinated and like you say, it didn’t come from here. It’s tearing through highly vaccinated communities, states and countries with no regard.  If everyone was double vaxxed with fresh boosters, we probably could’ve slowed it a little but only delayed it. We definitely couldn’t have avoided it altogether. 

[TrashMaster G 17,555]

So, our wingnuts, moron, corrupt-as-fuck dumbass State AG has Covid?

What a gotdamm shame.