CR: COVID-19 --Political Talk

[Willfully Horn 7916]

2 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Sure.  Alzheimer's disease is about to wreck our healthcare system. 

I deleted that, but too late for someone as quick as you. And, you’re right. Don’t forget the untold misery millions will live through, and also those who swill die miserably.

To answer your earlier question, I believe that UMichigan conducted the study that was reported. If they don’t know what they’re doing,  write them and learn them.

[Anastasis 23394]

3 minutes ago, Willfully Horn said:

To answer your earlier question, I believe that UMichigan conducted the study that was reported. If they don’t know what they’re doing,  write them and learn them.

Here is the summary of results. Not enough info on the methods to really assess the work. But I guess it is getting traction at some local ABC affiliate and the twitters.

https://www.michigan.gov/documents/coronavirus/20211012_Data_and_modeling_update_vMEDIA_738348_7.pdf

 

ETA: Noted that that analysis is from October, but was presented as new data. 

 

Edited January 25, 2022 by Anastasis

[Willfully Horn 7916]

2 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Sure.  Alzheimer's disease is about to wreck our healthcare system. 

I deleted that, but too late for someone as quick as you. And, you’re right. Don’t forget the untold misery millions will live through, and also those who will die miserably.

To answer your earlier question, I believe that UMichigan conducted the study that was reported. If they don’t know what they’re doing,  write them and learn them.

[Anastasis 23394]

Just now, Willfully Horn said:

I deleted that, but too late for someone as quick as you. And, you’re right. Don’t forget the untold misery millions will live through, and also those who will die miserably.

Yep. But see when pharma rolls out a drug supported by bullshit data and CMS restricts access and NICE shuts it down, somebody is going to complain about rational utilization management.  

[Willfully Horn 7916]

16 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Yep. But see when pharma rolls out a drug supported by bullshit data and CMS restricts access and NICE shuts it down, somebody is going to complain about rational utilization management.  

A subject I know nothing about. Alzheimer’s sucks so bad for so long, though, I can imagine the passions involved.

Luckily for this discussion, masks are quite inexpensive, and the anti-mask arguments have even less value.

Edited January 25, 2022 by Willfully Horn
Punct

[Skipper 6103]

7 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

 

 

 

My rebuttal

1. Vaccines do not provide complete protection to the vaccinated

      - Vaccines significantly protect against sever infection, hospitalization and death. Seat belts don't protect you 100% but we mandate those. 

2. Omnicron is less virulent

        - Delta is very deadly. We can't make decisions based on best case scenario variants. What if another variant develops that is deadlier than Delta? 850,000 people have died in the US. We mandate vaccinations against Rubella. 1,000 pregnant women lost their babies, 2,100 newborns died, and 20,000 babies were born with congenital rubella syndrome. Yet we still require it even though most people won't be affected. We have a long history of taking harmless vaccines so other people don't die. Just because you don't give a shit about X number of people dying, doesn't mean it's okay. 

3. Natural Immunity.

         Vaccines work better than natural immunity because there is no risk associated with dying to obtain a vaccine as opposed to natural immunity. Just because you want to take your chances with the virus doesn't mean that's a good idea, especially when it will negatively impact others. The more people that are vaccinated, the less chance the virus has to spread and infect others. 

4. Vaccines don't prevent transmission.

         No shit. But as he says, they do "slightly reduce the risk of transmission. Vaccination does not reduce the peak viral load in the infected (though it does appear to reduce the duration of viral shedding, which may translate to the reduction in SAR)." They reduce transmission

5. I will add Legal

      - Vaccine mandates are legal. See Jacobson v Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 (1905)

6. Impact of Mandates

     - There is no impact other than learning how selfish people are. It is a choice. People are choosing to lose their job, lose access to sports, theatre, etc. People are choosing to lose access to the public because they are too fucking selfish to take a harmless vaccine to protect the public. Fuck them. 

7. What is the scientific evidence to support vaccine mandates today?

      - He already listed all the scientific evidence to support that getting vaccinated is better than not being vaccinated. He ignores all the data on previous deaths. He makes the assumption that only less virulent variants will remain. He admits vaccines reduce transmission.

8. If this were really about science, why would we not allow previous infection, which confers all the benefits of vaccination, if not more, the same rights?

    - This one is bit more complicated as the science backs previous infection providing good immunity. So I would agree they should be given the same rights as vaccinated. The problem with this is two-fold. Logistics and Policy. Logistically, we would require everyone have a vaccine pass (which still seems to be a bugaboo with the same people advocating for anit-mandates), and the vaccine pass would have to be updated with a confirmed infection test, and then given a time period of how long that immunity lasts. Of course vaccinated immunity has scientifically been proved to last longer than natural immunity. So we would need to update each vaccines pass with the require timelines. Policy, it would send the wrong message. If you want to take your chances with the virus, then go for it. 

As promised coming back to that.  Some of what you say is persuasive.  Fully acknowledge there is a lot of gray area here.  A few specific points.

#2.  We can't dictate policy based on what we don't know or what might happen.  If there is a new more severe variant we can all debate policy at that point in time.  What we have now is Delta which has been displaced with Omicron which is less severe.  And the amount of high risk people that have no immunity (from vax or natural) after the past 2 waves is a very small number.   In other words, absent a new variant that impacts both existing vax immunity and natural immunity, there just aren't that many people left the virus can kill off.   And in that scenario, what good is a vaccine mandate with the old formula going to go against this hypothetical severe vax evasive strain?  Maybe we save the mandate for when we really need it.

#3.  Similar point as above.  I think this was a very persuasive argument pre-Delta.  Now that Delta and Omicron has provided a massive wave of natural immunity, I don't think it's as strong as an argument.

#4.  If vaccines were highly effective against transmission that would be much more persuasive for mandates.  Slight just doesn't move the needle for me.  If you were concerned above Omicron would you feel more safe in a restaurant that checked vaccine cards during the Omicron wave?  I was in New Orleans weekend before Christmas and posted up in a jam packed Carousel Bar after showing my vaccine card.  I definitely didn't feel any 'safer' there or anywhere else in the city given what we already knew then about Omicron.

#6.  It is a "choice" but that doesn't mean it's the right thing to put a mandate in place without a material benefit.  Again, I would prefer to leave that tool in the toolbox unless/until we really need it. 

[formermav43 4599]

I thought a conflict of interest is when I want to go to a restaurant, but there’s a kid there.

[Neonmoon 38127]

6 minutes ago, formermav43 said:

I thought a conflict of interest is when I want to go to a restaurant, but there’s a kid there.

Restraining order?

[tchookem 3900]

Restraining order?

Court order. He explained it to the neighborhood.

[Anastasis 23394]

FDA pulls back the reins on monoclonal antibody use. Looks like sotrovimab is the remaining option with activity against omicron.

https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/coronavirus-covid-19-update-fda-limits-use-certain-monoclonal-antibodies-treat-covid-19-due-omicron

 

[Dahobbs 17447]

14 hours ago, Anastasis said:

The one where we learned that everyone acknowledges that contingency fee structures are incompatible with the principle of justice, but somehow a segment of the profession has carved out a lice little Thomas J Henry niche for themselves. 

I don't know why I'm wading back into this intentional trolling, and I don't know why you're doing it when you're perfectly capable of providing insightful posts on the topic of this thread. But, your refusal to accept that attorneys have different ethical obligations than medical researchers is frustrating. And I have no idea why you've singled out contingency fee agreements. Regardless of the form of compensation, an attorney's obligation is to the client. You keep arguing for some vague ethical obligation to "justice" without any explanation of what that means or even a precise identification of any supposed conflict. In the legal ethical context, conflict of interest refers to a conflict between the attorney and the client, not the attorney and "justice" or society generally.  So long as the attorney's interests and the client's interests are aligned, there is no conflict. Attorneys do have some ethical obligations that run to the court, such as the duty of candor or the duty to not assist in perjury.  

Alabama bar reference (thanks google) if you're interested in actually learning about legal ethics and not just talking out your ass: https://www.alabar.org/office-of-general-counsel/formal-opinions/2009-01/

End response to trolling tangent.

[Anastasis 23394]

7 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

But, your refusal to accept that attorneys have different ethical obligations than medical researchers is frustrating.

Oh I accept it. Recognition of different ethical frameworks was explicit in my response to a post from sawbonz, where he was explaining his perspective as a physician on vaccine mandates within a biomedical ethics context. 

 

[NameAlreadyInUse 5106]

16 hours ago, Heme Doc said:

I agree about it being a gray area.  I don’t pretend to have all the right answers.  I hope you don’t feel like I’m throwing a tantrum.  Just trying to have respectful dialogue.  I’d lean more towards the carrot/stick approach above.  Companies can give reduced insurance rates or other perks for employees to get vaccinated.  I’m fine with healthcare workers being mandated to get the vaccine.  I do wish there were carve outs for exceptions for those previously infected (although I’d still advise them to get vaccinated).  

Yep sorry I wasn't clear.  There are tantrum throwers in this thread.  I don't see you as one of them.  

[Immaculate Vibes 114]

From yesterday. Gottlieb calls for rollback of mask and vaccine mandates. Here, here. Love to hear this from him since he’s plugged into both the science of the pandemic and the bureaucracy of the response.
 

Look out PW. More NYC kids soon allowed in public?  😬 
 

 

[Francisco 2.0 32342]

 Brace yourselves; Tucker & Company will be using this as proof death panels exist under Biden now:

 

https://boston.cbslocal.com/2022/01/24/covid-19-vaccine-heart-transplant-boston-brigham-womens/

 

Quote

 David Ferguson is speaking out passionately on behalf of his son DJ. He says the 31-year-old is fighting for his life at Brigham and Women’s Hospital and in desperate need of a heart transplant.

“My son has gone to the edge of death to stick to his guns and he’s been pushed to the limit,” Ferguson said.

The family says he was at the front of the line to receive a transplant but because he has not received the COVID-19 vaccination he is no longer eligible according to hospital policy. Ferguson says his son refuses to get the shot.

 

Quote

It’s kind of against his basic principles; he doesn’t believe in it. It’s a policy they are enforcing and so because he won’t get the shot, they took him off the list of a heart transplant,” Ferguson said.

Brigham and Women’s released a statement saying, “And like many other transplant programs in the United States – the COVID-19 vaccine is one of several vaccines and lifestyle behaviors required for transplant candidates in the Mass General Brigham system in order to create both the best chance for a successful operation and also the patient’s survival after transplantation.”

 

Quote

Dr. Arthur Caplan is Head of Medical Ethics at NYU Grossman School of Medicine. He says being vaccinated is necessary for this type of procedure. “Post any transplant, kidney, heart whatever, your immune system is shut off,” Caplan said. “The flu could kill you, a cold could kill you, COVID could kill you. The organs are scarce, we are not going to distribute them to someone who has a poor chance of living when others who are vaccinated have a better chance post-surgery of surviving.”

DJ remains at Brigham and Women’s Hospital. He is a father of two children with a third on the way. The family says they are not sure what they plan to do. They are thinking about transferring him, but he may be too weak to move.

 

Quote

“We are aggressively pursuing all options, but we are running out of time,” Ferguson said.

While the family says DJ has received great care from doctors and nurses at Brigham and Women’s, they just don’t agree with the heart transplant COVID vaccination policy. “I think my boy is fighting pretty damn courageously and he has integrity and principles he really believes in and that makes me respect him all the more.”

Which is why the family is sticking by DJ’s side and hoping for the best. “It’s his body. It’s his choice,” Ferguson said.

 

[BrazilHorn 6576]

11 minutes ago, Francisco 2.0 said:

 Brace yourselves; Tucker & Company will be using this as proof death panels exist under Biden now:

 

https://boston.cbslocal.com/2022/01/24/covid-19-vaccine-heart-transplant-boston-brigham-womens/

 

 

 

 

 

Welp I respect this dude's right to make a really stupid choice. He is certainly willing to die for his beliefs and should be allowed to do so. Even if he is a complete dumbass.

[Anastasis 23394]

Speaking of biomedical ethics that one make a good case study. Takes a pretty serious type of brain damage to refuse C19 vaccination when you are about to be immunosuppressed for the rest of your life. 

[HenryJames 65890]

 

[Nivek 16861]

18 hours ago, Skipper said:

Wildcat elaborated on what I meant by saying the CDC is "becoming a joke". Their inconsistent messaging and mixing of politics/science and making policy recs without an accurate representation of the risks and benefits.  I don't actually think the serious scientists that work there are a joke.  It's a message board dude.   

Also, I don't expect the CDC would have stats on kids with boosters yet.  I would expect them to have stats on kids vaxed 2X sufficient to show there is a BENEFIT to a fully vaccinated 14 year old getting a booster (i.e., are there actually healthy fully vaccinated 14 year olds that are getting severe disease such that a Booster would provide a benefit.) They discussed that there is myocarditis risk but it is extremely low.  But I think you have a duty to show the benefit exceeds that risk if you are going to recommend kids "should" (not may) get boosted.  At least the "benefits" should be part of the discussion/equation.

I just want to say, I recently discovered there are decaffeinated products that are as tasty as the real thing.

 

Background but unnecessary example of how they work: When it comes to investigations, IIRC, the CDC must be invited locally in order to participate.  They can conduct their own research but they don't really offer directives only recommendations and they cannot compel information or action from parties.   For example when they found out the folks in Milwaukee were were drinking contaminated poop-water because the inflow for the southern part of the town was after the waste-outflow from the northern part of the town, they were invited in to discover this issue which stumped the locals (also it was triggered by a run on stores for pepto, not people calling the CDC telling them their water was making them sick).   The city resolved the situation by extending the poop pipe (IIRC) and not by following the suggestions of the CDC.

I do not really agree the message wasn't clear (Fauci/CDC in the absence of meddling).  I know they asked us not to buy all the masks, but it was to allow the medical professionals to obtain a supply necessary to deal with the shortage, and then once production was up they wanted us to mask.  I knew this from the outset.  I disagree with Wildcat's guy.  Yes, we didn't need to go into panic mode, but taking something serious, protecting ourselves and not overwhelming the hospitals was a key part doctor podcast was leaving out.   Mask mandates are effective and having them at schools is helpful.  The only people psychologically terrorized by the masking were people who wanted to be terrorized by it.   

Shutdowns while a vaccine was rolled out was helpful to a degree because we didn't have a method to fight the disease especially when there were early cases of long-term illness and serious health impacts to people.   This wasn't just about protecting the healthy but also the vulnerable members of our society.   My father was diagnosed with cancer while Covid raged and had other issues which reduced his immune systems capability.   People like me, not becoming a host and a spreader helped people like him from getting the disease.   

The CDC as an organization did a fine job.   The CDC in conjunction with the Trump Administration, was not working well.  The Redfied wanted to extend the cruise liner shutdown and Mike Pence ignored him let it expire.   Redfield also promoted masking, and gave a realistic timetable for the vaccine availability and the President said he "must be confused."  The July 23rd call for reopening schools had only 1 CDC official there, Redfield and was mostly authored by the Trump Administration.  In September and October, the outline from the CDC was revised.  Here   This helps us to see that the issues for inconsistent messaging was due to the meddling by the Trump Administration and the inability/difficulty that Redfield had when dealing with them.   He should have told them to fuck off and did it publicly.  But he likely feared that he would be replaced by someone more pliable who had more difficulty navigating the Trump fuckery or be accompany to it.  We also have to keep in mind we added additional delay by creating our own test kits instead of using the ones initially developed by the WHO, and that many of the first batches were contaminated giving false information (IIRC it was false negatives) which provided them with bad information.  In the military they call this the fog of war, we shouldn't expect scientific agencies to navigate new viruses, meddling by an administration and expect them to get it right all the time.    But even those soldiers in combat don't have the CIC telling them they are liars and that the enemy bullets and meddling about switching to coal-fired catapults. 

Our country which has 5% of the world's population at one point had 25% of the deaths, and yet our country was the one to pioneer the first safe, highly effective vaccines.   This was a failure of leadership at the hands of the Trump administration and their propaganda network (including the spreading of lies by foreign actors).

 

 

 

 

[elfenix 34171]

20 hours ago, Anastasis said:

It is kinda wild to me that vax development and testing seems to have fallen off.

has it though?

[Anastasis 23394]

3 minutes ago, elfenix said:

has it though?

That's fair. 

[Longhorn_Fan68 33843]

52 minutes ago, HenryJames said:

 

I will never understand how we have let the dumbest among us dictate policy.

[HenryJames 65890]

 

[Post Oak 20187]

1 hour ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

I will never understand how we have let the dumbest among us dictate policy.

Idiots are the most valuable commodity in the world. 

Reps figured that out sooner than Dems.  Now everyone is paying for it 

[NameAlreadyInUse 5106]

23 hours ago, Anastasis said:

If we had a vaccine that conferred sterilizing immunity would that change your assessment?

 

It is kinda wild to me that vax development and testing seems to have fallen off.  Where are we with nasal administration and variant updates?  The mRNA tech's primary advantage is that once you are comfortable with the tech, we should be able to rapidly deploy updates.  We need the same amount of urgency to get to vaccine 2.0 as we had to get the first roll out. 

https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/pfizer-biontech-launch-trial-omicron-targeted-covid-vaccine-2022-01-25/

[Trey3216 15325]

5 hours ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

I will never understand how we have let the dumbest among us dictate policy.

You mean like the lefty fascists????

 

 

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19092]

3 minutes ago, Trey3216 said:

You mean like the lefty fascists????

 

 

What exactly is your point?  This doesn't seem very lefty or fascist, and if you think it is, then those are terms you really do not understand.  Not shocking given some of your terrible takes in this thread.

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19092]

6 hours ago, HenryJames said:

 

 

[Aqua Buddha 14521]

4 hours ago, HenryJames said:

 

Ken Griffin is a DeSantis donor and he owns a stake in one of the companies that makes the antibodies.  At multiple points during this, key donors have manipulated Republican policy towards Covid.

But Fauci lied, blah, blah blah.

[Sawbonz 27436]

7 hours ago, HenryJames said:

 

Welcome back measles!

[Brisketexan 104628]

Speaking of biomedical ethics that one make a good case study. Takes a pretty serious type of brain damage to refuse C19 vaccination when you are about to be immunosuppressed for the rest of your life. 

Counterpoint: you clearly don’t understand freedomeaglegunamericalibertyflag.

 

Republican governors: the world’s premiere medical experts.

[Zepol87 9171]

https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/counseltothemayor/downloads/Key-to-NYC-FAQ.pdf
I absolutely support this.  Kids are, at the best of times, germ factories.  I like my friend's kids in small doses, but on the whole, I am not a fan of children.  So if fewer of them are out and impacting my life, that is all a net positive to me.  

Wow. This might be a bit much

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk

[Anastasis 23394]

7 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Counterpoint: you clearly don’t understand freedomeaglegunamericalibertyflag.

Guarantee you that patient #2 on the transplant wait list is perfectly fine with this guy exerting his autonomy. 

[Anastasis 23394]

13 hours ago, NameAlreadyInUse said:

https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/pfizer-biontech-launch-trial-omicron-targeted-covid-vaccine-2022-01-25/

Saw that.  Good to see progress, even if they are now saying that March doesn't appear tenable.  Moderna saying late 2022 now. Looks like the big unknown is exactly what data the regulators will require. 

 

[HenryJames 65890]

Dr. McKinsey retweeting Jordan Peterson retweeting the Daily Mail is just [chef’s kiss].

[Post Oak 20187]

Wants to live, but not that bad.  Get vaxxed fuckface.  Get the transplant and dont leave your family devastated. 

 

[Bama Chick 28596]

Yeah. I feel good about my opinion on that Attia dude.

[Immaculate Vibes 114]

 

[wildcat09 29258]

16 minutes ago, Bama Chick said:

Yeah. I feel good about my opinion on that Attia dude.

No shit, wasting a perfectly good heart on a guy who will definitely die of covid post-transplant instead of giving it to someone who actually wants to live is what is murderous. 

[Longhorn_Fan68 33843]

14 hours ago, Trey3216 said:

You mean like the lefty fascists????

 

 

what exactly do you take exception with? it's way past time to tear down cultural norms and reform our society. perhaps we can start with what got us here in the first place - mis/disinformation. then maybe we can move on to crawling out from under the Puritanical thumb that has guided (or misguided) our cultural policy for nearly 400 years. why are you still living in the past? or better yet, why do you want to?

[Johnny Sack 8397]

13 minutes ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

what exactly do you take exception with? it's way past time to tear down cultural norms and reform our society. perhaps we can start with what got us here in the first place - mis/disinformation. then maybe we can move on to crawling out from under the Puritanical thumb that has guided (or misguided) our cultural policy for nearly 400 years. why are you still living in the past? or better yet, why do you want to?

You mean the last 400 years that have been the best 400 years of the billions this plant has existed?  The 400 years where our country became a superpower and the greatest place to ever live?  

Let's tear that all down.

 

[4th&Five 41461]

2 hours ago, Post Oak said:

Wants to live, but not that bad.  Get vaxxed fuckface.  Get the transplant and dont leave your family devastated. 

 

I'm sure he's done his own research on all the drugs he would be taking post-transplant.

[Longhorn_Fan68 33843]

59 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

You mean the last 400 years that have been the best 400 years of the billions this plant has existed?  The 400 years where our country became a superpower and the greatest place to ever live?  

Let's tear that all down.

 

we finally agree on something!

if you can look at the last 400+ years in America and not see room for improvement then you and Peter Doocy have a lot in common. Also, tell me you're white without telling me you're white.

[JimmyJames 12271]

1 hour ago, Johnny Sack said:

You mean the last 400 years that have been the best 400 years of the billions this plant has existed?  The 400 years where our country became a superpower and the greatest place to ever live?  

Let's tear that all down.

 

Well except if you were a slave or a Native American. 

Jesus. 

[Skipper 6103]

4 hours ago, HenryJames said:

Dr. McKinsey retweeting Jordan Peterson retweeting the Daily Mail is just [chef’s kiss].

Yeah, I'm not on board with this either.  Not a Dr so no idea of ethics involved but with organs so limited I have no issue mandating any patient do whatever it takes to maximize success (knowing there is a long list of others that WOULD do that).  I found Attia for his podcasts with some of the top lipidologist and heart disease experts as I have material genetic risk there (and he's certainly not a 'quack' in that dept as big believer in statins, psk9 inhibitors and other pharm tools unlike many of the twitter anti-statin quacks (which seems to overlap with anti-vax).  He brings in experts on other interesting topics (exercise, cancer, etc) so if interested I check it out probably once every couple of months.  But even though I probably align with him politically WAY moreso than the eric feingl-dings of the world, I do think he's letting his politics slant his recent COVID commentary somewhat.  He didn't touch Covid for a long time (had Peter Hotez on a couple of times early) and think his most recent podcast (which I just started this AM) would have been a lot more interesting had he brought on someone like Hotez or Eric Topol.   Monica Ghandi has been good so far but they are all still generally aligned.  I would just prefer a 'debate' from different positions as none of the policy discussions are black and white.  

 

[DigglerontheHoof 21065]

40 minutes ago, JimmyJames said:

Well except if you were a slave or a Native American. 

Jesus. 

Those people don’t count.

[Bama Chick 28596]

Well except if you were a slave or a Native American. 
Jesus. 

Or a woman.

[Sawbonz 27436]

4 hours ago, HenryJames said:

Dr. McKinsey retweeting Jordan Peterson retweeting the Daily Mail is just [chef’s kiss].

Um it’s exactly like the alcoholic who continues to drink

[Sawbonz 27436]

2 hours ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

what exactly do you take exception with? it's way past time to tear down cultural norms and reform our society. perhaps we can start with what got us here in the first place - mis/disinformation. then maybe we can move on to crawling out from under the Puritanical thumb that has guided (or misguided) our cultural policy for nearly 400 years. why are you still living in the past? or better yet, why do you want to?

You need to read guns germs and steel. That’s what got us here

[Dahobbs 17447]

22 minutes ago, DigglerontheHoof said:

Those people don’t count.

You consider those to be people? 

/s

Edited January 26, 2022 by Dahobbs