CR: COVID-19 --Political Talk

[Don Johnson 4,802]

7 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

You know what's really telling?

Functionally every person on this thread who would be deemed a "crying lefty libtard" on this issue thinks that Dr. Emanuel's statement cited above is utter bullshit, makes no sense, and is ultimately harmful because it is false information.  And I suspect we would all very much like that statement corrected, posthaste.

I don't believe that and you are trying to answer for everyone.  I think many would've taken the approach of "who really cares if it's true or not?  Worst case it convinces you to get your child vaccinated, which is harmless."

6 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

Actually listening to it, it seems like he just misspoke a bit. It didn't come across as dramatic live as in does in text. He agreed that the FDA's course of action for 2-5 is odd and said he'd understand parents being hesitant about vaccination for that age group right now. I wish he was asked follow up questions and given the opportunity to explain his statement. Given some of his other statements, I do know that he is concerned about the higher hospitalization rates for children seen with Omicron. So I suspect he was trying to summarize those concerns quickly and it just came out wrong. I do think he believes vaccination for kids 5 and over is a no brainer. 

If he misspoke, MSNBC (the network he was on) certainly didn't want to clarify that as that's the quote they chose to highlight and tweet out multiple times.

[Skipper 6,406]

12 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

 

As opposed to many members of the purported "skeptic" crowd on here, who love the "just asking questions" Joe Rogan types, and think they should just keep on keeping on.

Honesty is believing that misinformation is misinformation.  It doesn't matter where it comes from, or what "side" it leans towards.  Dissemination of utter bullshit degrades the ability to focus on an accurate and credible message and truth, and is ultimately harmful.  So, it should fucking stop.  It would be nice if those of you "skeptics" crying about Dr. Emanuel's bullshit statement had as much concern about all the other misinformation out there.  But you don't.  And that's telling.

I've never listened to Rogan but certainly don't like any show with that reach spreading anti-vax nonsense.  Of course me and millions of others probably never would have even heard about that podcast if it wasn't for self-righteous celebrities drawing attention to it.  

The difference is the guy on Rogan has very little credibility in the medical community and this guy is on the administration's damn Covid response team.   So one is easily debunked in mainstream circles and this guy made that statement, that's been tweeted all over the internet, IS mainstream.   It's pretty fucking unbelievable anyone in that position can either be so wrong or so careless with words. 

Everything that's gone on with pediatric vaccination recs lately is extremely concerning in my opinion.   Starting with recommending boosters in healthy teenagers and now this.   I didn't pay much attention to the FDA officials that quit over what was coming down the pipe at the time but it makes complete sense now.

The damage this is going to do to the pediatric vaccination rate in this country with VACCINES THAT ACTUALLY FUCKING MATTER IN THAT POPULATION will be a disaster.  All because "they" decided to not worry about actual individual benefits and instead decided to do anything to "Hopefully" (with zero data) drive cases down including scaring parents into vaccinating their kids, with an unprecedented emergency approval process, even though their risk is miniscule.   

I mean if this shit makes me (a Biden voter that was at the front of the line to get vaxed and boosted) start to question everything we're being told by our public officials, I can't fathom what those that were already skeptical are thinking.  So fucking stupid.

[Dahobbs 18,183]

8 minutes ago, Don Johnson said:

I don't believe that and you are trying to answer for everyone.  I think many would've taken the approach of "who really cares if it's true or not?  Worst case it convinces you to get your child vaccinated, which is harmless."

Maybe find someone that actually says that. I don't think there are many that would agree. 

Quote

If he misspoke, MSNBC (the network he was on) certainly didn't want to clarify that as that's the quote they chose to highlight and tweet out multiple times.

 

I have no idea if MSNBC even realizes he misspoke. Hopefully a correction is issued at some point because that statement as it was worded is most definitely false. It deserves pushback and MSNBC and Dr. Emmanuel should retract/clarify. 

[jimmyjazz 46,967]

12 minutes ago, Don Johnson said:

I don't believe that and you are trying to answer for everyone.

I think the vast majority of people who post on this forum are highly inclined to follow the science, and when something so grossly off the mark gets stated, they recognize it as such.

That doesn't mean everyone agrees exactly on what "following the science" might mean in every case, but that's a different argument.

[Foosters 18,223]

Thrice banned GRHorn lecturing this board about disinformation is pretty fucking unbelievable. Go chug a gallon of ivermectin you fucking ghoul.

[Johnny Sack 8,397]

44 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

You know what's really telling?

Functionally every person on this thread who would be deemed a "crying lefty libtard" on this issue thinks that Dr. Emanuel's statement cited above is utter bullshit, makes no sense, and is ultimately harmful because it is false information.  And I suspect we would all very much like that statement corrected, posthaste.

Which is how responsible human beings view misinformation -- whether he just has it wrong, was careless, used shitty words, whatever, it doesn't matter, the message is false, and because it is non-credible, it harms the overall information picture.  So, we have a serious problem with it.

As opposed to many members of the purported "skeptic" crowd on here, who love the "just asking questions" Joe Rogan types, and think they should just keep on keeping on.

Honesty is believing that misinformation is misinformation.  It doesn't matter where it comes from, or what "side" it leans towards.  Dissemination of utter bullshit degrades the ability to focus on an accurate and credible message and truth, and is ultimately harmful.  So, it should fucking stop.  It would be nice if those of you "skeptics" crying about Dr. Emanuel's bullshit statement had as much concern about all the other misinformation out there.  But you don't.  And that's telling.

You realize 41% of Democrats believe if they got covid they had almost a 50% chance of being hospitalized? The real number is around 2%. Be nice if our leaders and media cared to put real data out there.

 

[Foosters 18,223]

Thrice banned GRHorn lecturing this board about disinformation is pretty fucking unbelievable. Go chug a gallon of ivermectin you fucking ghoul.

[We’reTexas 1,475]

3 hours ago, HenryJames said:

 

I don’t know why she keeps making predictions. Her whole thing began when UCSF shut her AIDS clinic down. She tried to devise a reopening protocol because COVID is decidedly less serious that AIDS. She also saw the California zero COVID crowd analogous to the prohibitionist HIV crowd in the 80s advocating celibacy when we should have been teaching sex ed, so she began pushing pragmatic harm reductionist policies so things could get moving again. But the zero COVID absolutely hates her and they use her failed predictions to invalidate her policy proposals. I guess she likes the national platform but she’s shooting herself in the foot. 

[Dahobbs 18,183]

8 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

You realize 41% of Democrats believe if they got covid they had almost a 50% chance of being hospitalized? The real number is around 2%. Be nice if our leaders and media cared to put real data out there.

 

How exactly are you figuring that the media and leaders aren't putting out the real numbers? That same study was covered by:

The New York Times: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/18/briefing/atlanta-shootings-kamala-harris-tax-deadline-2021.html

Vox: https://www.vox.com/2021/3/21/22342184/democrats-republicans-covid-19-vaccine-hesitancy-polls

And you realize from the same 2020 study that 40% of Republicans believe that both auto-accidents and the flu cause more deaths that Covid:

[TurkeyChew 383]

50 minutes ago, Skipper said:

I've never listened to Rogan but certainly don't like any show with that reach spreading anti-vax nonsense.  Of course me and millions of others probably never would have even heard about that podcast if it wasn't for self-righteous celebrities drawing attention to it.  

The difference is the guy on Rogan has very little credibility in the medical community and this guy is on the administration's damn Covid response team.   So one is easily debunked in mainstream circles and this guy made that statement, that's been tweeted all over the internet, IS mainstream.   It's pretty fucking unbelievable anyone in that position can either be so wrong or so careless with words. 

Everything that's gone on with pediatric vaccination recs lately is extremely concerning in my opinion.   Starting with recommending boosters in healthy teenagers and now this.   I didn't pay much attention to the FDA officials that quit over what was coming down the pipe at the time but it makes complete sense now.

The damage this is going to do to the pediatric vaccination rate in this country with VACCINES THAT ACTUALLY FUCKING MATTER IN THAT POPULATION will be a disaster.  All because "they" decided to not worry about actual individual benefits and instead decided to do anything to "Hopefully" (with zero data) drive cases down including scaring parents into vaccinating their kids, with an unprecedented emergency approval process, even though their risk is miniscule.   

I mean if this shit makes me (a Biden voter that was at the front of the line to get vaxed and boosted) start to question everything we're being told by our public officials, I can't fathom what those that were already skeptical are thinking.  So fucking stupid.

100%

[Johnny Sack 8,397]

25 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

How exactly are you figuring that the media and leaders aren't putting out the real numbers? That same study was covered by:

The New York Times: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/18/briefing/atlanta-shootings-kamala-harris-tax-deadline-2021.html

Vox: https://www.vox.com/2021/3/21/22342184/democrats-republicans-covid-19-vaccine-hesitancy-polls

And you realize from the same 2020 study that 40% of Republicans believe that both auto-accidents and the flu cause more deaths that Covid:

Also misinformation.  But misinformation is loudly addressed by the media, leaders, social media, etc.

[Dahobbs 18,183]

37 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

Also misinformation.  But misinformation is loudly addressed by the media, leaders, social media, etc.

Do you not see a difference between misunderstandings of the lay public as reflected in that study and the intentional reinforcement and encouragement of misinformation from people with influence (e.g., media personalities and politicians)? 

[Johnny Sack 8,397]

1 hour ago, Dahobbs said:

Do you not see a difference between misunderstandings of the lay public as reflected in that study and the intentional reinforcement and encouragement of misinformation from people with influence (e.g., media personalities and politicians)? 

I think Covid fear porn from the media has caused the misinformation that I referenced.

[Poe It Up 126]

I’ve had friends and neighbors get Covid in the last month (seems like nearly everyone) and they only found out with an at home test. They didn’t even go to doctor, so how in the world can they actually track all this Covid data properly? 

[jimmyjazz 46,967]

1 minute ago, Poe It Up said:

I’ve had friends and neighbors get Covid in the last month (seems like nearly everyone) and they only found out with an at home test. They didn’t even go to doctor, so how in the world can they actually track all this Covid data properly? 

They can't.  That said, the reported cases are surely a lower bound on the actual case count.

[Anastasis 23,699]

8 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

They can't.  That said, the reported cases are surely a lower bound on the actual case count.

Agree.  Has anyone seen a good estimate of the multiple involved?

[jimmyjazz 46,967]

Just now, Anastasis said:

Agree.  Has anyone seen a good estimate of the multiple involved?

Months and months ago the estimated ratio was 4.3X.  That was total to reported over the pandemic to that date.  (Can't remember when I saw that, I think it was when the reported case count was ~ 30M, so looking on worldometers, that's roughly mid-March 2021.)  I've given up paying attention to cases since that point.

[Sawbonz 28,081]

6 hours ago, Dahobbs said:

do know that he is concerned about the higher hospitalization rates for children seen with Omicron.

This is news to me. Do you mean higher total hospitalizations? 
 

Quote

Researchers reviewed data on nearly 80,000 U.S. children under age 5 with a first infection, including 7,201 infected in late December or early January when Omicron was causing more than 90% of cases. After accounting for other risk factors, including medical conditions and socioeconomic circumstances, researchers found children infected during the Omicron surge had a 29% lower risk of emergency department visits, a 67% lower risk of hospitalization, a 68% lower risk of needing intensive care, and a 71% lower risk of needing machines to breathe, compared to children infected with Delta. However, "because of Omicron's increased transmissibility, the overall number of emergency department visits, hospitalizations, ICU admissions, and mechanical ventilator use in children may still be greater" with Omicron than with Delta, 

 

Reuters. I’m too lazy to find the study

[Sawbonz 28,081]

2 hours ago, Anastasis said:

Agree.  Has anyone seen a good estimate of the multiple involved?

CDC estmates 1 in 4 cases is reported

this is from November I would bet it’s gotten lower with all the testing. I think their methodology is similar to how they estimate total influenza cases. Early on I the pandemic the estimate was 1 in 9

[TexLonghorn 5,737]

Yay.  We did it.  Go America.

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2022/02/04/1078100069/covid19-deaths-us

[Immaculate Vibes 114]

6 hours ago, Foosters said:

Thrice banned GRHorn lecturing this board about disinformation is pretty fucking unbelievable. Go chug a gallon of ivermectin you fucking ghoul.

What’s funny is what people remember as disinformation ends up becoming acceptable. People are just coming around to it. The key points were 

1-Natural immunity is roughly equivalent to vaccine immunity.  
2-Caution is justified given the risk/benefit assessment in children and teens, especially boys, especially given #1. 
3-Given the first two points, broad punitive mandates were unjust 
 

Never posted anything to do with ivermectin, HCQ or any other proposed early intervention. 

[JimmyJames 12,271]

29 minutes ago, TexLonghorn said:

Yay.  We did it.  Go America.

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2022/02/04/1078100069/covid19-deaths-us

Told y’all we’d hit a million. And that’s just the reported deaths.

[JimmyJames 12,271]

25 minutes ago, Immaculate Vibes said:

What’s funny is what people remember as disinformation ends up becoming acceptable. People are just coming around to it. The key points were 

1-Natural immunity is roughly equivalent to vaccine immunity.  
2-Caution is justified given the risk/benefit assessment in children and teens, especially boys, especially given #1. 
3-Given the first two points, broad punitive mandates were unjust 
 

Never posted anything to do with ivermectin, HCQ or any other proposed early intervention. 

Nice try asshole. You were constantly posting anti vax bullshit for months. Everyone here knows it. We don’t have to go search for your bullshit posts to know it either.

[Anastasis 23,699]

35 minutes ago, Immaculate Vibes said:

Never posted anything to do with ivermectin, HCQ or any other proposed early intervention.

They are confusing you with triple horn. RIP. 

[elfenix 34,658]

1 hour ago, Immaculate Vibes said:

1-Natural immunity is roughly equivalent to vaccine immunity.  
2-Caution is justified given the risk/benefit assessment in children and teens, especially boys, especially given #1. 
3-Given the first two points, broad punitive mandates were unjust 

still ignoring the elephant in the room

Edited February 5, 2022 by elfenix
wrong metaphor

[Incredulity 11,859]

1 hour ago, JimmyJames said:

Told y’all we’d hit a million. And that’s just the reported deaths.

Damn those Covid mass graves all to hell!!!

[Dahobbs 18,183]

3 hours ago, Sawbonz said:

This is news to me. Do you mean higher total hospitalizations? 
 

 

Reuters. I’m too lazy to find the study

Yes, sorry. He has an article on higher hospitalization for children overall. I don't believe the data he cited looked at per infection rates. I didn't mean to be stating a fact, just summarizing what I had seen from him previously. 

[Immaculate Vibes 114]

Looks like Canadian authorities are trying to eliminate protest funding. 

If only there were a solution for the protestors… 🤔 

Edited February 5, 2022 by Immaculate Vibes

[tchookem 3,965]

I'm watching the opening ceremonies so I decided to see how other countries were faring versus COVID. It looks like they're all doing better than we are... by a lot. We had 3,000 people die today. Brazil had 1,000. Do you think it would change anything if they flashed those numbers as each nation entered the stadium?

Probably not.

[Anastasis 23,699]

16 minutes ago, tchookem said:

I'm watching the opening ceremonies so I decided to see how other countries were faring versus COVID. It looks like they're all doing better than we are... by a lot. We had 3,000 people die today. Brazil had 1,000. Do you think it would change anything if they flashed those numbers as each nation entered the stadium?

Probably not.

Hopefully they dont put first world mortality reporting on the same footing as third world mortality reporting. 

[tchookem 3,965]

Hopefully they dont put first world mortality reporting on the same footing as third world mortality reporting. 

I just don't think Americans are even aware of where we fall compared to the countries we consider our contemporaries. Then again, maybe they are fully aware. One lesson the last 2 years have taught me is that Americans can not care better than any other country in the world.

[BehoId, The Underminer! 11,669]

3 hours ago, JimmyJames said:

Told y’all we’d hit a million. And that’s just the reported deaths.

I remember doing back of the envelope guesstimation in March 2020, long before we had a vax, and saying we might lose 2 million people from this.  We get a vaccine and we still might get there because of how poor adoption rates have been. 

[smoky 842]

4 minutes ago, tchookem said:

8 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Hopefully they dont put first world mortality reporting on the same footing as third world mortality reporting. 

I just don't think Americans are even aware of where we fall compared to the countries we consider our contemporaries. Then again, maybe they are fully aware. One lesson the last 2 years have taught me is that Americans can not care better than any other country in the world.

I dont know where we'd fall for other stats like life expectancy and average BMI, but I'd guess if Brazil is at 1k and we're at 3k that we live longer and are fatter.

[tchookem 3,965]

I dont know where we'd fall for other stats like life expectancy and average BMI, but I'd guess if Brazil is at 1k and we're at 3k that we live longer and are fatter.

Probably. I mentioned Brazil because that was what my half-assed internet research yielded as the 2nd highest number of deaths today.

[JimmyJames 12,271]

3 minutes ago, BehoId, The Underminer! said:

I remember doing back of the envelope guesstimation in March 2020, long before we had a vax, and saying we might lose 2 million people from this.  We get a vaccine and we still might get there because of how poor adoption rates have been. 

I think your guesstimate is closer to accurate. I personally know at least two people who died prematurely and unexpectedly in their 50s and 60s and it will never be said it was Covid. I’ll never be able to prove it and frankly don’t care to since that’s not my job or concern but I believe it was a factor anyway. Yeah I’m getting older but I’ve experienced more death in the last year and a half than I can ever remember.

[BehoId, The Underminer! 11,669]

5 minutes ago, JimmyJames said:

I think your guesstimate is closer to accurate. I personally know at least two people who died prematurely and unexpectedly in their 50s and 60s and it will never be said it was Covid. I’ll never be able to prove it and frankly don’t care to since that’s not my job or concern but I believe it was a factor anyway. Yeah I’m getting older but I’ve experienced more death in the last year and a half than I can ever remember.

You can see a pretty good estimate on the number through the excess death charts and not have to rely on reported cause of death.  It’s still below 1,000,000 there.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm
 

its nice because you don’t have to rely on shitty states to be honest about why people were dying.  You’re just relying on them to count deaths in total, which I doubt there is fudging on.

Basically everything above expected deaths is COVID, imo, but for negligible numbers where someone would have died during the pandemic anyway but Covid got them first. 

[Sawbonz 28,081]

CDC link I posted up thread had 921k estimated deaths and was last updated in mid November 

[jimmyjazz 46,967]

One (partial) counter to the comparison between the US and Brazil:  Brazil has less than 65% of the US population.

[tchookem 3,965]

One (partial) counter to the comparison between the US and Brazil:  Brazil has less than 65% of the US population.

My point was that if you compare us to any country, we come out looking like morons.

My question is if more Americans were aware of how we compared to the rest of developed countries, would it make a difference? Would we start doing what they're doing (90%+ vaccination rate)?

I'm guessing not considering we don't apply that logic to any other human endeavor we fall short on.

[Guest]

On 2/4/2022 at 5:55 PM, JimmyJames said:

Told y’all we’d hit a million. And that’s just the reported deaths.

Are there a lot of folks who go missing from Covid. or is there some other significance to this descriptor?

[Biff Tannen 46,060]

Just got pfizer boosted.  4th shot overall.  Started with J&J in Feb 2021.  

[HenryJames 67,115]

Already got the microchip. Might as well get the latest software update.

[Sawbonz 28,081]

51 minutes ago, slorch said:

Are there a lot of folks who go missing from Covid. or is there some other significance to this descriptor?

People who die at home, in a NH or SNF, or arrest in the field and cannot be resuscitated at hospital and are never tested are a few examples 

[Bateshorn 9,989]

15 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

People who die at home, in a NH or SNF, or arrest in the field and cannot be resuscitated at hospital and are never tested are a few examples 

Yup. 
 

I always find it weird that people think autopsies still happen. They are vanishingly rare as are Medical Examiners. The medical professional who declares death  often just guesstimates the cause and that’s what goes on the death certificate. 

Quincy, M.E. isn’t in the building.

Edited February 6, 2022 by Bateshorn

[Immaculate Vibes 114]

The perfect anti-science, Covid hypocrisy pic doesn’t exi…

 

[Bookman 4,754]

3 hours ago, tchookem said:

My question is if more Americans were aware of how we compared to the rest of developed countries, would it make a difference?

Lol.

[Telegraph_it 3,376]

18 minutes ago, Immaculate Vibes said:

The perfect anti-science, Covid hypocrisy pic doesn’t exi…

 

That is suboptimal optics. 

[tchookem 3,965]

Lol.

Bless my heart.

[Foosters 18,223]

On 2/4/2022 at 4:07 PM, Anastasis said:

They are confusing you with triple horn. RIP. 

No I'm not. He's been posting anti-vaxx shit for over a year. But because he's on your team, it never bothered you.

 

[Anastasis 23,699]

12 minutes ago, Foosters said:

No I'm not. He's been posting anti-vaxx shit for over a year. But because he's on your team, it never bothered you.

I don't recall him ever posting shit about ivermectin one way or the other. That was triple's game so not sure why you brought it into the discussion. Maybe there is a reason other than confusion that you can share?

I've specifically pointed out times when he has misinterpreted or posted bad data regarding vax in the DT thread. And in those exchanges he acknowledged the error. 

If you think that someone is posting anti-vax shit, quote it and refute it with data. This really isn't that hard. 

But that is not the real issue.  The real issue is that there are a bunch of people unequipped for such discussions that think everything on the topic is very black and white.