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Mrs Whiggins

By Mrs Whiggins
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Dirk X West

Dirk X West 772

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5 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

Yep, even more good on them.  I feel bad for the employees during this shit show.

My next door neighbor manages one of the stores here in the Austin area.  We had a  chat about all this last Friday (at a safe distance).  I think he's aware of the risks (which includes living in the same house with his elderly father, who I think has COPD), but he also seemed proud to be contributing so much to our community at this time, and rightly so.  

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I'd just like to point out that neither myself nor any of my fellow nurses, fellow advanced nurse practitioners, and other healthcare providers ever swore an oath that we would lay down our lives for

Bama Chick
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Welp, it finally happened. I snapped in public today. I went into work for a bit this morning because I’m trying to figure out the safest way to host physicians we are recruiting given our CV-19 sit

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I don't really know what to say anymore tbh. What happened last night is hard to put into words for anyone who hasn't worked in a hospital healthcare setting. Just unreal. Everyone is getting fucked.

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RomaVicta

RomaVicta 30508

Posted
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4 hours ago, Francisco 2.0 said:

Donald Trump could use that time to invoke the Defense Production Act, launching a wartime effort in which American manufacturers switch to making medical equipment. But after invoking the act last Wednesday, Trump has failed to actually use it, reportedly due to lobbying from the U.S. Chamber of Commerce and heads of major corporations.

Trump's reasoning? Look at Venezuela. They nationalized. Not good. Besides, we're doing a terrific job. You wouldn't have a country if it weren't for me even though I bear no responsibility. I give us a ten. Now here are some lackeys to tell you how great I am. Some people say the greatest president ever.

 

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Captainant

Captainant 28415

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1 hour ago, Hiphopopotamos said:

 

Well that's definitely concerning news. The useful bit of info from that thread is an actual study from China with a control group that had a 1:1 control to experimental group size.

Patients in HCQ group were given HCQ 400 mg per day for 5 days plus conventional treatments, while those in the control group were given conventional treatment only. With the size of their test group, the test group was comparable/overlapping with the control group in terms of recovery.

I'll wait for actual medical experts to start saying something louder about HC+AT and cloroquine treatments, but it certainly is not supported by early testing.

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DixonHur

DixonHur 11943

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8 minutes ago, Mo Horn said:

No doubt Fauci unleashed the virus to hurt Trump's re-election. Next Fox breaking story. 

Well, Bill Mitchell and his merry band of conspiracy theorist followers are already claiming he's a Hillary plant, so...

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Mrs Whiggins

Mrs Whiggins 13050

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3 minutes ago, Captainant said:

Well that's definitely concerning news. The useful bit of info from that thread is an actual study from China with a control group that had a 1:1 control to experimental group size.

Patients in HCQ group were given HCQ 400 mg per day for 5 days plus conventional treatments, while those in the control group were given conventional treatment only. With the size of their test group, the test group was comparable/overlapping with the control group in terms of recovery.

I'll wait for actual medical experts to start saying something louder about HC+AT and cloroquine treatments, but it certainly is not supported by early testing.

IIRC when making media rounds last week (?) one of the talking heads asked Dr Fauci and he said they need random double blind experiments or something along those lines. Many folks think science is too slow. There is a reason it is often slow but that may belong in a different thread. 
 

Funny how those folks who don’t believe in science, don’t want to fund science, or think all science should be profit-motive based applied science look to science for help as if is available at a snap of the fingers. Sigh. Don’t stare at the sun, people. T&P if you do. 

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Mrs Whiggins

Mrs Whiggins 13050

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Oh and @zork I looked at your video and the account. Weird. That is implying that American military or some Western military spread virus while on subway during trip to Wuhan? Do they know who those people are? The video had no credited source so hard to tell. Pompeo is pushing hard at the Wuhan designation so there is a lot of behind the scenes maneuvering with this disease. 

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RomaVicta

RomaVicta 30508

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17 minutes ago, Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand said:

USA! USA! USA!bf3c372d1700ebbaa0bd8382b8124afb.jpg

Does the corporate management of these hospitals get a walk on responsibility here? If the medical community was aware of a likely pandemic (plague), why didn't the decision makers there put money into a stock pile of protective gear for their staff on the front line?

If the hospital decision makers were assured that the feds would step in with equipment, then the fault lies with the feds. If not, how can we not put some blame on the directors of these corporations?

We've seen that HEB had a plan. Why not the hospitals?

I'd appreciate the perspective of medical professionals because I have little knowledge of how such things work.

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RomaVicta

RomaVicta 30508

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15 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

Well, Bill Mitchell and his merry band of conspiracy theorist followers are already claiming he's a Hillary plant, so...

One of them never-Trumpers? It figures. Those kinds of people are the source of all of woes.

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Captainant

Captainant 28415

Posted
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1 minute ago, RomaVicta said:

Does the corporate management of these hospitals get a walk on responsibility here? If the medical community was aware of a likely pandemic (plague), why didn't the decision makers there put money into a stock pile of protective gear for their staff on the front line?

If the hospital decision makers were assured that the feds would step in with equipment, then the fault lies with the feds. If not, how can we not put some blame on the directors of these corporations?

We've seen that HEB had a plan. Why not the hospitals?

I'd appreciate the perspective of medical professionals because I have little knowledge of how such things work.

There's a decent medical discussion thread going on over in DT, I'd bet there's a way to ask this question that won't get CR-whistled

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bolverk

bolverk 30247

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34 minutes ago, zork said:

Now a perspective from a likely CCP twitter feed, unofficial of course:

Scroll through her feed for a possibly different perspective:

https://twitter.com/RosemaryLxiao

 

The two pole spitters on 3-20 are interesting.  (can anyone interpret the text)

 

No doubt there's a shitload of state-sponsored disinformation out on the internet. Way upthread, I posted about this about a month ago. Glad you're finally catching on.

Russia Knows Just Who to Blame for the Coronavirus: America

Wednesday marked the deadliest day yet in the battle with coronavirus, with 242 deaths reported in Hubei province, the epicenter of the outbreak. As the virus has spread around the world, so to have conspiracy theories cropping up everywhere from India to Australia.

But in Russia the misinformation has been particularly pointed. Russia’s spin doctors have capitalized on the fear and confusion of the epidemic to point the blame at the United States, following a well-established pattern of previous Russian disinformation campaigns and evoking a Cold War-era plot by the KGB to paint HIV as a U.S. biological weapon.

Russia is certainly not alone in promulgating conspiracy theories about the virus. “At the WHO we’re not just battling the virus, we’re also battling the trolls and conspiracy theories that undermine our response,” said World Health Organization chief Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus. But in Russia these theories are appearing on prominent mainstream news discussion shows such as Big Game and Time Will Tell on Channel 1, rather than just being confined to squalid corners of the internet. In late January, the firebrand leader of the far-right Liberal Democratic Party of Russia party told a Moscow radio station that he thought coronavirus was an American bioweapon or a big plot by pharmaceutical companies to get richer.

Cont'd:

https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/02/14/russia-blame-america-coronavirus-conspiracy-theories-disinformation/

Could be the Chinese too in this particular instance. Who knows? That's why you absolutely must carefully vet everything.

 

 

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triplehorn

triplehorn 2664

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18 minutes ago, Captainant said:

Well that's definitely concerning news. The useful bit of info from that thread is an actual study from China with a control group that had a 1:1 control to experimental group size.

Patients in HCQ group were given HCQ 400 mg per day for 5 days plus conventional treatments, while those in the control group were given conventional treatment only. With the size of their test group, the test group was comparable/overlapping with the control group in terms of recovery.

I'll wait for actual medical experts to start saying something louder about HC+AT and cloroquine treatments, but it certainly is not supported by early testing.

The Chinese study you reference with no statistical difference between groups used 400mg/d HCHQ dosing.  The French study that showed statistically significant results used 600mg/d.  That 50% higher dose could be the difference between therapeutic and sub-therapeutic dosing.  just sayin.

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Captainant

Captainant 28415

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5 minutes ago, triplehorn said:

The Chinese study you reference with no statistical difference between groups used 400mg/d HCHQ dosing.  The French study that showed statistically significant results used 600mg/d.  That 50% higher dose could be the difference between therapeutic and sub-therapeutic dosing.  just sayin.

Completely agree. My point was more that we still don't have many conclusive datapoints to justify the nation-wide panic to prescribe and hoard it. If a bunch of first responders are under-dosing and they're just taking a needless med (or ineffective dosage) when their systems are already stressed, that's not gonna be a great time

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zork

zork 629

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

Oh and @zork I looked at your video and the account. Weird. That is implying that American military or some Western military spread virus while on subway during trip to Wuhan? Do they know who those people are? The video had no credited source so hard to tell. Pompeo is pushing hard at the Wuhan designation so there is a lot of behind the scenes maneuvering with this disease. 

It was a rabbit hole I went down earlier this morning, but there are definitely people pushing that narrative.(likely CCP)  The interesting tidbit from most of it, the most interesting let us say, was that there apparently way more than two strains of this covid-19 that are identified according to them.(Chinese?)  They say it came from a now closed bio factory in the Maryland area.  And that the whole lung problems blamed on the vaping thing was actually early Covid-19.  Then that the 5 US military people who went to the Wuhan games in late '19 brought it over.  It is a wildly fantastical narrative they got going that to me is the opposite of an occam's razor expanation of it exploding in Wuhan initially cause of their bio-weapons plant there or the animal-human cross over from the wet markets.  It would be good to know the truth.

 

edit:  btw the two licking videos could have been from CCP cameras tracking foreigners in country.

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BrickHorn

BrickHorn 18426

Posted
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17 minutes ago, triplehorn said:

The Chinese study you reference with no statistical difference between groups used 400mg/d HCHQ dosing.  The French study that showed statistically significant results used 600mg/d.  That 50% higher dose could be the difference between therapeutic and sub-therapeutic dosing.  just sayin.

The French study had huge problems.  I don’t have a link handy, but one analysis I read pointed out that the treatment group includes five patients who were excluded from the final stats because they were in ICU and unable to be tested to see if the virus was still present.  At least one of those 5 died.  Include those 5, and suddenly the results of treatment look very different.   
 

Edit: here’s an analysis that explains the methodological problems with the study.  https://blogs.mediapart.fr/olivierbelli/blog/220320/pr-raoult-and-chloroquine-beware-lone-wolf

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bolverk

bolverk 30247

Posted
Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

Oh and @zork I looked at your video and the account. Weird. That is implying that American military or some Western military spread virus while on subway during trip to Wuhan? Do they know who those people are? The video had no credited source so hard to tell. Pompeo is pushing hard at the Wuhan designation so there is a lot of behind the scenes maneuvering with this disease. 

No shit. That's not even a Chinese subway. Look at the passengers; look at the text over his head. Only a moron would find that remotely believable.

Who's behind the tweet? Dunno.

When was the video taken? Dunno.

What is the motive for the tweet? Creation of anger between Chinese and Americans.

Who is the intended audience? Whoever can read English and Chinese script.

Those are the only things we can tell from it.

@zork

Edited by bolverk
English R hard.
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zork

zork 629

Posted
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2 minutes ago, bolverk said:

No shit. That's not even a Chinese subway. Look at the passengers; look at the text over his head. Only a moron would find that remotely believable.

Who's behind the tweet? Dunno.

When was the video taken? Dunno.

What is the motive for the tweet? Creation of anger between Chinese and Americans.

Who is the intended audience? Whoever can read English and Chinese script.

Those are the only things we can tell from it.

@zork

it is clear those are two sick fucks licking, fingers  then rubbing the public transportation hand poles.

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triplehorn

triplehorn 2664

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Just now, BrickHorn said:

The French study had huge problems.  I don’t have a link handy, but one analysis I read pointed out that the treatment group includes five patients who were excluded from the final stats because they were in ICU and unable to be tested to see if the virus was still present.  At least one of those 5 died.  Include those 5, and suddenly the results of treatment look very different.   

Subjects typically do drop out of studies and that was accounted for in the write-up.  Those drop-outs were not used for statistical analysis.  It was a small sample size overall and not controlled.  But to get a statistically significant result with a small sample size, you need a fairly robust treatment effect.  Small differences in outcomes that are statistically significant require comparatively larger N subjects.  A Type I error is more likely in the former, but this is more acceptable when the risk of treating is relatively low while the risk of doing nothing is high.

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bolverk

bolverk 30247

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1 minute ago, zork said:

it is clear those are two sick fucks licking, fingers  then rubbing the public transportation hand poles.

Agreed. All we know is it's people of European descent on a subway with an ad over the guy's head in a language using a Latin-based alphabet. I can't tell which language though -- I'm on my phone and it's too small/blurry to read, so it's not a Chinese subway.

Those are the only discernible facts, given the information at hand. Everything else is pure speculation.

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Junior Miller

Junior Miller 1502

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26 minutes ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

IIRC when making media rounds last week (?) one of the talking heads asked Dr Fauci and he said they need random double blind experiments or something along those lines. Many folks think science is too slow. There is a reason it is often slow but that may belong in a different thread. 
 

Funny how those folks who don’t believe in science, don’t want to fund science, or think all science should be profit-motive based applied science look to science for help as if is available at a snap of the fingers. Sigh. Don’t stare at the sun, people. T&P if you do. 

The problems with vaccines is if not done properly they cause immune enhancement which makes the disease symptoms stronger and more deadly than normal. It's why they have to test and retest then test again until they're certain they have one that builds antibodies without causing immune enhancement. That typically takes years. 

While the scientific community keep pressing and researching vaccines behind the scenes the govt and world as a whole needs to forget about a vaccine helping this outbreak. The vaccine is for 2 years down the road at minimum. Won't do anything for what we face now. 

This is just something we're going to have to live with. Use this shut down time to bolster the supplies and medical treatment capacity as much as possible then get back to living life but it'll never be normal like we knew it before. It'll be like living in the aftermath of a zombie apocalypse where you go on like everything is normal but you know just around the corner there's a significant deadly threat that could pop up at any time and kill you in a horrific fashion. Yet you just keep moving forward because the only reasonable choice is either that or put a bullet in your brain now so you don't have to endure the uncertainty. 

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BrickHorn

BrickHorn 18426

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5 minutes ago, triplehorn said:

Subjects typically do drop out of studies and that was accounted for in the write-up.  Those drop-outs were not used for statistical analysis. 

But it’s a rather large issue that the drop outs were excluded almost entirely because their outcomes were poor.  That completely undermines the data purportedly showing positive outcomes in the treatment group.  All this study shows is that counting only positive outcomes leads to optimistic results.  

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jimmyjazz

jimmyjazz 46988

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16 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

But it’s a rather large issue that the drop outs were excluded almost entirely because their outcomes were poor.  That completely undermines the data purportedly showing positive outcomes in the treatment group.  All this study shows is that counting only positive outcomes leads to optimistic results.  

Well, the good news is we now have a shit ton of patients on which we can perform randomized, double-blind trials exploring different anti-viral treatment options.

#brightsideoflife

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Bama Chick

Bama Chick 28596

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Posted
Does the corporate management of these hospitals get a walk on responsibility here? If the medical community was aware of a likely pandemic (plague), why didn't the decision makers there put money into a stock pile of protective gear for their staff on the front line?
If the hospital decision makers were assured that the feds would step in with equipment, then the fault lies with the feds. If not, how can we not put some blame on the directors of these corporations?
We've seen that HEB had a plan. Why not the hospitals?
I'd appreciate the perspective of medical professionals because I have little knowledge of how such things work.


Well, I can only speak for where I work but there’s two big problems with us stockpiling PPE:

One, some of it has an expiration date. We’re pretty much ignoring that now because some is better than none but prior to this we couldn’t because we would have been violating hospital policies and regulatory requirements.

Two, we can’t fucking afford to order a bunch of extra supplies at once for a “what if the world ends” scenario. My department doesn’t have a budget line for pandemic.
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RomaVicta

RomaVicta 30508

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3 minutes ago, Bama Chick said:

 


Well, I can only speak for where I work but there’s two big problems with us stockpiling PPE:

One, some of it has an expiration date. We’re pretty much ignoring that now because some is better than none but prior to this we couldn’t because we would have been violating hospital policies and regulatory requirements.

Two, we can’t fucking afford to order a bunch of extra supplies at once for a “what if the world ends” scenario. My department doesn’t have a budget line for pandemic.

 

Thanks for answering. I wondered about the expiration date aspect. Good to know.

As for the budget aspect, why couldn't large hospitals and chains of hospitals include pandemic supplies in their budgets, at least those without and expiration date?

I'm aware that my questions are likely very ignorant.

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triplehorn

triplehorn 2664

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17 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

But it’s a rather large issue that the drop outs were excluded almost entirely because their outcomes were poor.  That completely undermines the data purportedly showing positive outcomes in the treatment group.  All this study shows is that counting only positive outcomes leads to optimistic results.  

The outcome measure was viral load, not improvement or worsening of clinical symptoms.  In other words, a subject could demonstrate a reduced or increased viral load in response to treatment but still die from complications unrelated to the viral load (poor outcome unrelated to dependent variable).  

The French study incorporated people across the full spectrum of illness with their only similarity being they had a confirmed positive covid result for at least 6 days prior.  Intuitively early intervention will yield better results.  So those people standing in line for HCHQ at the pharmacy likely will fare better than those starting treatment in a hospital on O2, all things being equal.  I don't fault anyone for trying it with physician supervision.  Med supply bottlenecks should also be getting resolved more quickly than PPE shortages.

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