CR: COVID-19 --Political Talk

[Nice Guy Eddie 13,710]

3 hours ago, Mapache said:

This dumb sob is a governor.and a Republican of course 

 

Someone should question the governor and his health advisor who wasn't aware of the basic facts of the worst pandemic in the world over the past century. I'm assuming he isn't available for questions from the media, or only friendly media was called upon.

[WhatTheBuck 28,904]

13 minutes ago, Post Oak said:

If you vote Republican people will die. 

If you voted for Trump then you have blood on your hands. 

[Don Johnson 4,810]

2 hours ago, Mo Horn said:

 

All the projections I’ve seen show NY will need 10k or so ventilators. Wouldn’t it be irresponsible to believe they need 40k and send them at the expense of other states?

https://covid19.healthdata.org/projections

Edited April 2, 2020 by Don Johnson

[TornACL 7,792]

Once the floodwaters have broken the banks, it's too late to start packing sandbags. 

[Fozzz 152]

Thank God they're going to reform the SALT cap or we'd be in real trouble.

 

[Don Johnson 4,810]

10 hours ago, cactusflinthead said:

"Hope to have you back"

Bwahaha! Yeah, I bet you do.

 

The WHO let us know in 2019 it was person to person?  Really?

 

[horn4life 3,830]

You are going to see a science experiment of deadly proportions where the primary difference is going to be whether or not your Governor or Mayor took early action, or did not take early action.  You are going to see some statistical information that reflects how the courses of action or non-action affect the outcome of the piles of dead.

My assertion is you are going to see massive spikes in places like Florida, Georgia and Mississippi, as they can be identified as the States whose leaders actions most mirrored the early actions of President Trump.  Malaise and non-concern of the governors of these states mirrors the non-curiosity of our president.  They simply did not do their due diligence and the near universal policy of republican elected representatives rejecting all science made curiosity of something like a virus, a lot less appealing than a little spring breaker economic surge.

While logic would dictate that those that live in close quarters will be the most effected by the virus, the demographic of scientifically ignorant republican is going to be another group more effected than others.  I wonder how the virus will flow into the rural areas that are not well supported by hospitals and that are largely republican? Will a failure to take social distancing early have negative result?  Will allowing a massive commingling in Florida, Georgia and Alabama long after the concerns were known have a negative result?

I think you are going to see the states these three Republican led states who were the very last to take this virus seriously have clear statistical data indicating a negative outcome due to inaction.  In essence when you decide to "ditto" the Presidents inaction on a state level, citizens will die unnecessarily. 

[DixonHur 11,943]

11 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

If you voted for Trump then you have blood on your hands. 

I don't know that I'd go that far...we knew he'd be bad, but who could have predicted he'd be THIS bad.

Now, if you STILL support Trump, then yeah, you've got a lot of blood on your hands

[Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand 13,619]

4 hours ago, GRHorn said:

 

 

I wonder if we still had the pandemic response team formed by the Obama administration in anticipation of a pandemic on the ground in China if we would even have had to rely on the word of the Chinese government? Likely wouldn't matter being America's intelligence community was warning the Trump administration about the seriousness of this outbreak, and we know from this administration's track record it values the word of foreign autocratic governments over that of its own intelligence agencies. So good chance this know-it-all moron wouldn't be swayed by any expertise that he inherently can't relate to and holds in contempt.

[BrazilHorn 6,795]

Trump absolutely mismanaged this epidemic from the start and he should face some sort of reckoning for it.

With that said, China should be held by far even more accountable as their direct lies and obfuscation all throughout the initial rise of CV 19 (and their continued lies re: deaths, infections etc) are what brought this to our shores.

Global agencies like WHO that are way up China's ass are to blame as well as they delayed labeling this an pandemic and also downplayed it's deadliness.

I hope our economic cold and potential high unemployment absolutely turns around and goat fucks China's economy and I hope coming out of this we invest in manufacturing capability (even if subsidized) and take China's lying POS government down.

[cactusflinthead 27,626]

15 minutes ago, Don Johnson said:

The WHO let us know in 2019 it was person to person?  Really?

 

That's what you got out of the interview?

Ok.

[WhatTheBuck 28,904]

2 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

I don't know that I'd go that far...we knew he'd be bad, but who could have predicted he'd be THIS bad.

Now, if you STILL support Trump, then yeah, you've got a lot of blood on your hands

He's the first president in history who never held elected office nor served in the military before. He has no relevant experience whatsoever that qualifies him for the job, unless you consider a skill at manipulating the media a qualification. His voters were fine with that. But it was just going to be a matter of time before he faced a real crisis and, as anyone with a head on their shoulders knew, he wasn't going to be fit to handle it. Maybe the crisis would've come in another form but regardless, he wasn't going to be capable of handling it like a competent leader because that's not what he is. It wasn't a matter of if, it was just a matter of when. 

[Bateshorn 9,989]

5 hours ago, GRHorn said:

No. I’ve said multiple times that Trump’s initial response was dumb. The column above actually makes the point that the bureaucracy is part of the problem. We don’t necessarily need more “government instruments”.

I generally agree with this tweet. 

 

 

As others have pointed out, you are absolving the president of his responsibilities under Article 2 as executive.  It is his primary job to make the bureaucracy work. His lack of curiosity and intelligence, as well as public denialism meant that he didn't use his ultimate authority to sweep away red tap and mismanagement and make his cabinet secretaries get results.  It's why we are running out of PPE, still don't have wide spread testing, and are only now seeing Red State governors awaken to the tsunami headed towards their shores.

You want to blame both Obama and the GOP Congress' of the past for failure to rebuild the national pandemic stockpile?  I'll buy that.  Everything after that is solidly on Trump's shoulders.  Blaming some mid tier bureaucrat for failure to take on the White House is equivalent to blaming a staff sergeant for the decision to push on the Yalu River in 1950.

Edited April 2, 2020 by Bateshorn

[TXSG8R 3,362]

1 minute ago, BrazilHorn said:

Trump absolutely mismanaged this epidemic from the start and he should face some sort of reckoning for it.

With that said, China should be held by far even more accountable as their direct lies and obfuscation all throughout the initial rise of CV 19 (and their continued lies re: deaths, infections etc) are what brought this to our shores.

Global agencies like WHO that are way up China's ass are to blame as well as they delayed labeling this an pandemic and also downplayed it's deadliness.

I hope our economic cold and potential high unemployment absolutely turns around and goat fucks China's economy and I hope coming out of this we invest in manufacturing capability (even if subsidized) and take China's lying POS government down.

wut?

They labeled it a pandemic once it had shown up in enough countries to satisfy the definition.  Did you want them to label it a pandemic while it was largely in Wuhan?

Quote

adjective
(of a disease) prevalent over a whole country or the world.

The WHO also stated exactly what the mortality rate was based on all the data available, which largely inflated said rate.  They were reporting a 3-4% rate for a while during the early stages based on data from Iran, Italy, and China, when everyone knew the actual rate is likely much lower.  

[DixonHur 11,943]

20 minutes ago, Don Johnson said:

The WHO let us know in 2019 it was person to person?  Really?

 

Ok, you're right, it wasn't until January 9th...

https://twitter.com/WHO/status/1215371498317406209

I can't fucking embed

Edited April 2, 2020 by DixonHur

[Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand 13,619]

Let's punish the Chinese by voting them out of office!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ok. How about a trade war?

[Don Johnson 4,810]

4 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

Ok, you're right, it wasn't until January 9th...

https://twitter.com/WHO/status/1215371498317406209

I can't fucking embed

your link says nothing like that. It does say this though 

Jan 14 they are saying no clear evidence.  Yet that guy says they told us in 2019.  

 

Edited April 2, 2020 by Don Johnson

[DixonHur 11,943]

1 minute ago, Don Johnson said:

Jan 14 they are saying no clear evidence.  Yet that guy says they told us in 2019.  

 

Thanks, I hadn't seen your original post...

I don't have my glasses on...is that the WHO saying there's no clear evidence, or the WHO reporting what the Chinese authorities said?

[Bateshorn 9,989]

For people blaiming the WHO, when did you become such globalist cucks?  Frankly, this is America, we have never relied on global organizations to make what is the best decision for our citizenry. 

Now suddenly Trump's defenders are out here with the "The WHO was wrong!  WTF were we supposed to do? The global community that we ostensibly lead let us down!  God King is absolved!"

[Biff Tannen 46,063]

1 hour ago, WhatTheBuck said:

He also stole an election. 

Let's not forget this.

[BrickHorn 18,426]

16 minutes ago, BrazilHorn said:

With that said, China should be held by far even more accountable as their direct lies and obfuscation all throughout the initial rise of CV 19 (and their continued lies re: deaths, infections etc) are what brought this to our shores.

What “direct lies?”  And what “obfuscation?” Be specific.

[Fozzz 152]

The China derangement syndrome has been fun to watch unfold, particularly in the DT thread.  These people can't seem to deal with the fact that the US' response to the pandemic has been a world class embarrassment and thus need to channel that humiliation into scapegoating China. 

[Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand 13,619]

I wonder if WHO said anything else regarding the coronavirus in the month and a half + between those tweets and the president claiming it was a hoax on Feb 28?

[BrazilHorn 6,795]

3 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

What “direct lies?”  And what “obfuscation?” Be specific.

That US military brought virus

that death count was as low as it was

coverup of doctors speaking out about viruses

etc etc

[Biff Tannen 46,063]

44 minutes ago, Don Johnson said:

All the projections I’ve seen show NY will need 10k or so ventilators. Wouldn’t it be irresponsible to believe they need 40k and send them at the expense of other states?

https://covid19.healthdata.org/projections

If those numbers are correct, I would say yes.

Edited April 2, 2020 by Biff Tannen
the source appears legit to me

[Bateshorn 9,989]

1 minute ago, Fozzz said:

The China derangement syndrome has been fun to watch unfold, particularly in the DT thread.  These people can't seem to deal with the fact that the US' response to the pandemic has been a world class embarrassment and thus need to channel that humiliation into scapegoating China. 

Also, it's China.  I mean, when did we suddenly start trusting anything they say or do?

[Biff Tannen 46,063]

3 minutes ago, Bateshorn said:

Also, it's China.  I mean, when did we suddenly start trusting anything they say or do?

Wait a minute.  Did Fozzz say something smart?

[Bateshorn 9,989]

5 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

Wait a minute.  Did Fozzz say something smart?

I mean, the moment in December we confirmed there was a new disease, we should have batten down the hatches, trimmed sales, and started to get heavy weather ready.  Instead that shit gibbon threw on more sails and fired up the blender. Because he's a fucking moron.

Edited April 2, 2020 by Bateshorn

[BrazilHorn 6,795]

22 minutes ago, TXSG8R said:

wut?

They labeled it a pandemic once it had shown up in enough countries to satisfy the definition.  Did you want them to label it a pandemic while it was largely in Wuhan?

The WHO also stated exactly what the mortality rate was based on all the data available, which largely inflated said rate.  They were reporting a 3-4% rate for a while during the early stages based on data from Iran, Italy, and China, when everyone knew the actual rate is likely much lower.  

There were cases in 19 countries outside of China on Jan 31 indicating significant person to person transmission. Rather than wait to Mar 11 once 114 countries were impacted they should have moved earlier in labeling this more seriously. To me they were parsing language vs ringing the bell.

By the time bell rang it was already spread everywhere.

[Dahobbs 18,194]

9 minutes ago, Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand said:

I wonder if WHO said anything else regarding the coronavirus in the month and a half + between those tweets and the president claiming it was a hoax on Feb 28?

Yeah, I mean it isn't like the WHO declared a global health emergency at the end of January. 

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/world-health-organization-decide-coronavirus-global-health-emergency/story?id=68639487

And it wasn't telling countries to take the virus more seriously (hint hint USA).

https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/02/who-data-shows-coronavirus-is-containable-us-fails-to-contain/?itm_source=parsely-api

https://www.france24.com/en/20200306-coronavirus-world-health-organisation-who-tedros-adhanom-ghebreyesus

And it certainly didn't declare a pandemic on March 11.

https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/03/covid-19-is-a-pandemic-who-declares/

But, since none of that happened, obviously the only thing we had to go on was a single tweet from January 9. Really too bad. 

[Bateshorn 9,989]

All of that is good and well.  The Chinese line a lot of pockets around the world.  But anytime you hear the word "outbreak"  and either "China" or "Sub Sahara Africa"  your first response should be "I want more information about that, ASAP.  Also somebody pull out the pandemic plans, give them a once over and make sure we are up to date and ready to go."

It's like when a Tropical Depression appears off the coast of Africa.  Time to start discussing planning, make sure the generator turns over, and itemize the chest freezer, even if there's a solid chance it'll spin off into the Atlantic.

Edited April 2, 2020 by Bateshorn

[jw4381 3,242]

1 hour ago, TXSG8R said:

The second bullet is largely a symptom of the third.  The first bullet, while true, doesnt have anything to do with the US waiting from January 3rd (when CDC and the president were keenly aware of the threat) until mid March to start ramping up an effective response.  

Uhhhh...the president isn't keenly aware of anything, except when he feels the urge to take a shit, maybe.

[Dahobbs 18,194]

 

4 minutes ago, BrazilHorn said:

There were cases in 19 countries outside of China on Jan 31 indicating significant person to person transmission. Rather than wait to Mar 11 once 114 countries were impacted they should have moved earlier in labeling this more seriously. To me they were parsing language vs ringing the bell.

By the time bell rang it was already spread everywhere.

Pandemic is just a stage of outbreak. They were ringing the bell, telling countries to take it seriously and institute containment measure. Our President decided it was the flu and no big deal. It wasn't the WHO or China that did that. People in this goddamn forum knew it was a big deal back in January. I'm sorry if I expect at least as much from the people running the country. 

[Bateshorn 9,989]

Just now, Dahobbs said:

 

Pandemic is just a stage of outbreak. They were ringing the bell, telling countries to take it seriously and institute containment measure. Our President decided it was the flu and no big deal. It wasn't the WHO or China that did that. People in this goddamn forum knew it was a big deal back in January. I'm sorry if I expect at least as much from the people running the country. 

There were runs on Masks, Purell, and Gloves by mid february.  The fucking citizenry was taking it seriously.  Blaming WHO and China is just another form of what-aboutism. 

[BrazilHorn 6,795]

Just now, Dahobbs said:

 

Pandemic is just a stage of outbreak. They were ringing the bell, telling countries to take it seriously and institute containment measure. Our President decided it was the flu and no big deal. It wasn't the WHO or China that did that. People in this goddamn forum knew it was a big deal back in January. I'm sorry if I expect at least as much from the people running the country. 

Agree Trump fucked up completely and is still fucking up. People are and will continue to die at a higher rate due to his incompetence.

I do believe though that China's slow play of info and coverup and WHO also slow playing call to pandemic didn't help.

[DixonHur 11,943]

1 minute ago, BrazilHorn said:

Agree Trump fucked up completely and is still fucking up. People are and will continue to die at a higher rate due to his incompetence.

I do believe though that China's slow play of info and coverup and WHO also slow playing call to pandemic didn't help.

Slow play?

They first noticed it on December 31, by January 11th they'd sent a fully sequenced gene of the virus to the WHO.

[BrazilHorn 6,795]

Just now, DixonHur said:

Slow play?

They first noticed it on December 31, by January 11th they'd sent a fully sequenced gene of the virus to the WHO.

ok, I guess I am the only one that thinks China could have done more with being upfront re: CV and also that in subsequent weeks that have not been transparent and honest.

 

[NameAlreadyInUse 5,167]

It was already on the news here every day, what possible difference would it have made being labeled a pandemic vs an epidemic earlier?  How would that have changed anything?  I guess I’m not understanding your point because I’m not seeing how changing the label matters. Can you help me out here?

Edited April 2, 2020 by NameAlreadyInUse

[DixonHur 11,943]

2 minutes ago, BrazilHorn said:

ok, I guess I am the only one that thinks China could have done more with being upfront re: CV and also that in subsequent weeks that have not been transparent and honest.

 

No one is giving China a pass...but, when was the last time China was "transparent and honest"?  

As George Bush so eloquently put it...

“There's an old saying ... that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again.”

Edited April 2, 2020 by DixonHur

[YChang 3,533]

1 minute ago, BrazilHorn said:

ok, I guess I am the only one that thinks China could have done more with being upfront re: CV and also that in subsequent weeks that have not been transparent and honest.

 

What you and others right now are saying... it’s ALL true. In the end, our country still fucked up by being way too slow to react... much less had a plan for it as we’re all witnessing now. 

[BrazilHorn 6,795]

2 minutes ago, NameAlreadyInUse said:

It was already on the news here every day, what possible difference would it have made being labeled a pandemic vs an epidemic earlier?  How would that have changed anything?  I guess I’m not understanding your point because I’m not seeing how changing the label matters. Can you help me out here?

I guess I am just looking at it from lens of if international agencies weren't as aggressive in labeling as could be then that gives domestic agencies an out.

I am frustrated with how US has handled but I do believe it's been a global shit show from start.

[UDontKnow 10,559]

1 minute ago, BrazilHorn said:

ok, I guess I am the only one that thinks China could have done more with being upfront re: CV and also that in subsequent weeks that have not been transparent and honest.

 

China has not been honest since Mao assumed power in 1949.

As for the WHO:

 

 

The WHO Director couldn't do well for his own country either: https://qz.com/africa/986672/dr-tedros-adhanom-ghebreyesus-the-top-candidate-to-lead-the-world-health-organization-is-being-accused-of-covering-deadly-outbreaks-of-cholera-in-ethiopia/

 

[Dahobbs 18,194]

2 minutes ago, BrazilHorn said:

ok, I guess I am the only one that thinks China could have done more with being upfront re: CV and also that in subsequent weeks that have not been transparent and honest.

 

I think China downplayed the threat of the virus for much the same reason we did. It was treated as a political issue rather than a scientific issue in the beginning. By the time the Chinese took it seriously, it already spread. I do think China (again, largely due to political embarrassment) has under reported the toll of the virus on the country. But, I have no doubt that if a similar virus had started in the US, we (under Trump) would have done the exact same thing. I mean, we basically fucking did (e.g., no testing, keeping people no ships so that our numbers look good). 

The fact of the matter is that we had plenty of warning and time to act. We didn't. That is on us and no one else. 

[Irwin F Fletcher 3,555]

14 minutes ago, Bateshorn said:

All of that is good and well.  The Chinese line a lot of pockets around the world.  But anytime you hear the word "outbreak"  and either "China" or "Sub Sahara Africa"  your first response should be "I want more information about that, ASAP.  Also somebody pull out the pandemic plans, give them a once over and make sure we are up to date and ready to go."

It's like when a Tropical Depression appears off the coast of Africa.  Time to start discussing planning, make sure the generator turns over, and itemize the chest freezer, even if there's a solid chance it'll spin off into the Atlantic.

This! On top of the world battling a pandemic, we here in the states are also having to battle what appears to be a serious genetic defect in the remaining population that supports Trump and continues to give him a pass.  

[TXSG8R 3,362]

1 minute ago, BrazilHorn said:

There were cases in 19 countries outside of China on Jan 31 indicating significant person to person transmission. Rather than wait to Mar 11 once 114 countries were impacted they should have moved earlier in labeling this more seriously. To me they were parsing language vs ringing the bell.

By the time bell rang it was already spread everywhere.

The pandemic label requires it to have a worldwide spread.  They were ringing the bell well before that though.  

The US had their first confirmed case on Jan 21.  Wuhan quarantined on Jan 23rd.  WHO declared a global public health emergency on Jan 30th.  The first death outside of Asia happened on Feb 14th, just for clarity.  

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/new-coronavirus-outbreak-declared-global-public-health-emergency-who-says-n1126836

Quote

The emergency designation has been used just a few times in recent years, including during the 2009 H1N1 pandemic; the 2014 Ebola outbreak in West Africa; and the Zika virus epidemic in 2015-16.

And you're still missing the larger point.  US Intel was ringing bells well before the WHO was, and the WH ignored them.  There's a reason we have those agencies, and Trump has stubbornly refused to trust them.  In fact, it seems like Trump was more apt to believe Xi and China over US intelligence.  

 

 

[BrickHorn 18,426]

6 minutes ago, BrazilHorn said:

That US military brought virus

that death count was as low as it was

coverup of doctors speaking out about viruses

etc etc

That’s not specific. Those are just vague statements. The first one is just fucking laughable. If we believed China that our own soldiers were the source, we’re idiots.  If we based our own policy on that easily disproven and ultimately irrelevant lie, then we’re dangerously incompetent.  

As to the other issues, anyone who followed this thread knew in late January that (a) the naive CFR in Wuhan was above 2% and (b) China was locking everything down, knowing it would tank their economy.  And EVERYONE assumed openly that China was understating the true extent of its epidemic.

 If the President of the United States had worse intel than Surly, then we have serious problems as a nation.  The real truth is: Trump was given far better insight into the real scope of the outbreak in China than anyone else had.  He just ignored it, or didn’t understand it, or some combination of the two.

[Brisketexan 106,647]

7 minutes ago, UDontKnow said:

China has not been honest since Mao assumed power in 1949.

As for the WHO:

 

 

The WHO Director couldn't do well for his own country either: https://qz.com/africa/986672/dr-tedros-adhanom-ghebreyesus-the-top-candidate-to-lead-the-world-health-organization-is-being-accused-of-covering-deadly-outbreaks-of-cholera-in-ethiopia/

 

Cool, cool.

What about the clear reports from US INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES as to the nature and urgency of the threat?  Trump ignored those too.

Seriously, good work discrediting China, the WHO, the illuminati, whoever else you want to set up as a distraction.  Let's assume that none of those even exist, they are so unworthy of our attention.  What about the fucking warnings FROM OUR OWN INTEL AGENCIES?  I guess everyone on earth who is "not Donald J. Trump" just can't be trusted.

[SuingToGetAMessageBoard? 3,861]

28 minutes ago, Bateshorn said:

trimmed sales,

that's one thing we actually did do

[Don Johnson 4,810]

1 hour ago, horn4life said:

You are going to see a science experiment of deadly proportions where the primary difference is going to be whether or not your Governor or Mayor took early action, or did not take early action.  You are going to see some statistical information that reflects how the courses of action or non-action affect the outcome of the piles of dead.

My assertion is you are going to see massive spikes in places like Florida, Georgia and Mississippi, as they can be identified as the States whose leaders actions most mirrored the early actions of President Trump.  Malaise and non-concern of the governors of these states mirrors the non-curiosity of our president.  They simply did not do their due diligence and the near universal policy of republican elected representatives rejecting all science made curiosity of something like a virus, a lot less appealing than a little spring breaker economic surge.

While logic would dictate that those that live in close quarters will be the most effected by the virus, the demographic of scientifically ignorant republican is going to be another group more effected than others.  I wonder how the virus will flow into the rural areas that are not well supported by hospitals and that are largely republican? Will a failure to take social distancing early have negative result?  Will allowing a massive commingling in Florida, Georgia and Alabama long after the concerns were known have a negative result?

I think you are going to see the states these three Republican led states who were the very last to take this virus seriously have clear statistical data indicating a negative outcome due to inaction.  In essence when you decide to "ditto" the Presidents inaction on a state level, citizens will die unnecessarily. 

Florida and Georgia probably but states like Alabama and Mississippi don’t have dense populations at all. No big cities. Have almost zero public transportation. Not much international travel. Not much tourism. 
 

Even if they didn’t lock down until later, they at least knew about it well in advance. Even the most stubborn of folks have been washing their hands a lot more and avoiding handshakes etc since roughly March 10.  Simple awareness makes a big difference and it’s a benefit that NY, NJ, LA, WA didn’t have. 
 

I would expect MS and AL to have higher death rates due to higher obesity and smoking but not an overwhelming number of cases compared to the rest of the country. 

[FondrenRoad 4,378]

7 minutes ago, BrazilHorn said:

ok, I guess I am the only one that thinks China could have done more with being upfront re: CV and also that in subsequent weeks that have not been transparent and honest.

 

They had an enforced quarantine of 40 million people complete with military roadblocks and makeshift hospitals. They didn't hide the seriousness of this at all.  They wouldn't do that for the fucking flu. 

I guess they should have taken a time out and sent out handwritten "this is really bad guys" valentines to every country in the world.

So they lilely didn't give an accurate count.  Maybe they don't even have an accurate count. Guess what?  Neither do we.