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Mrs Whiggins

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I'd just like to point out that neither myself nor any of my fellow nurses, fellow advanced nurse practitioners, and other healthcare providers ever swore an oath that we would lay down our lives for

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Welp, it finally happened. I snapped in public today. I went into work for a bit this morning because I’m trying to figure out the safest way to host physicians we are recruiting given our CV-19 sit

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I don't really know what to say anymore tbh. What happened last night is hard to put into words for anyone who hasn't worked in a hospital healthcare setting. Just unreal. Everyone is getting fucked.

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Anastasis

Anastasis 23699

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, elfenix said:

picking out the one thing that biden or hillary might have done worse than trump (and which trump himself less than half-assed) and arguing about it some peak anastasis. 

Meh. I've criticized plently wrt the response of the Trump admin and the related executive branch bureaucracies. But in the final analysis, I don't think that Biden or Clinton or anybody frankly would be able to wave a magic wand and turn us into Japan (note: their numbers are also bullshit, suppressed for political reasons). Nobody is really able to offer me examples of alternative policies impacting specific decision points (e.g. travel restrictions, bureaucracy stream lining @ CDC or FDA) that would put us in a substantively different place today. There are a variety of toggles we can flip. As it stands we are on a similar trajectory as every other Western nation. I think that the most fantastical position given the evidence at hand is that the alternate political reality would result in a meaningful difference in terms of the COVID crisis. But I am willing to consider evidence to the contrary. 


US is buried somewhere right about middle of the pack. 

Capturecases.jpg

 

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JimmyJames

JimmyJames 12271

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Here comes Anastasis once again asking everybody to provide him with proof of an alternate reality while claiming he’s criticized trump in the past when the entire message of his post is trump hasn’t done a damn thing wrong that caused further injury than what would have happened anyway. 
 

Or am I wrong? If so, I require you to provide me proof. Like our hero,  I am willing to consider some evidence to the contrary.  

Edited by JimmyJames
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Anastasis

Anastasis 23699

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1 minute ago, JimmyJames said:

Here comes Anastasis once again asking everybody to provide him with proof of an alternate reality while claiming he’s criticized trump in the past when the entire message of his post is trump hasn’t done a damn thing wrong that caused further injury than what would have happened anyway. 
 

Or am I wrong? If so, I require you to provide me proof. Like our hero,  I am willing to consider some evidence. 

Yeah, that's not the "entire message" of my post at all Jimmy.  Did you ever find all those examples of pandemic models you referenced a few days ago in the discussion of testing assumptions?  Or are you ready to share with us where you regurgitated that claim from?

I am not asking for proof of an alternate reality.  I am suggesting that we are on a similar course as every other western nation dealing with this crisis. And despite the subjective viewpoint of people like you, who think that if we just flipped over the other side of the dysfunctional political coin we would be in a substantively different place in terms of outcomes, the reality as I see it is that the multiple factors that input the model would largely balance each other out. I do think that the press conferences would be more composed and less nonsensical though. And there is certainly some credit to that.  

 

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Beantown Express 2.0

Beantown Express 2.0 6586

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8 minutes ago, JimmyJames said:

Here comes Anastasis once again asking everybody to provide him with proof of an alternate reality while claiming he’s criticized trump in the past when the entire message of his post is trump hasn’t done a damn thing wrong that caused further injury than what would have happened anyway. 
 

Or am I wrong? If so, I require you to provide me proof. Like our hero,  I am willing to consider some evidence to the contrary.  

I will guaranfuckingtee you one thing.  If Hillary had been elected President and corona virus occurred the death toll would be way worse.  Mainly because every single Republican dumb ass would listen to Fox and believe it was all a hoax or just a way for the Democrats to push Socialism on us. They would refuse to do social distancing, close their stores, etc... and go ahead with their lives even though people they know would be dropping dead left and right all around them.

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jimmyjazz

jimmyjazz 46972

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I'm sure @Anastasis sleeps well knowing in his mind he demanded hard data to counter his whimsical hypotheses and that nobody stepped up, but frankly, it's not worth 1/10th the effort it would take to try to engage and gain even the slightest foothold.  I am quite sure he seeks "expert" opinions that run counter to the norm, usually containing a fair amount of analysis, probably a Tyler Durden Zero Hedge spew as often as not, and then he sets up seemingly innocuous theories that he can later follow with his data to "prove" his point.  Anyone who doesn't have numbers to contradict his theories he sees as vanquished foes.

Well, fuck it.  The pathology is not only odd, it's sad.

Anyone . . . ANYONE . . . who possesses even the most base level of observational skills knows beyond a shadow of a doubt that Trump fucked this up beyond any level imaginable.  It doesn't matter who the alternative would have been, Hillary, Biden, Bernie, W, you name it, they would have done better.  I mean, it's just beyond the pale to think Joe Biden would have somehow ignored all expert opinion AND failed to half-ass "secure" airways from China.  Can it be proven?  Well, no, but hey, here's some graphs that indicate blah blah blah.  Yay.

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JimmyJames

JimmyJames 12271

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4 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Yeah, that's not the "entire message" of my post at all Jimmy.  Did you ever find all those examples of pandemic models you referenced a few days ago in the discussion of testing assumptions?  Or are you ready to share with us where you regurgitated that claim from?

I am not asking for proof of an alternate reality.  I am suggesting that we are on a similar course as every other western nation dealing with this crisis. And despite the subjective viewpoint of people like you, who think that if we just flipped over the other side of the dysfunctional political coin we would be in a substantively different place in terms of outcomes, the reality as I see it is that the multiple factors that input the model would largely balance each other out. I do think that the press conferences would be more composed and less nonsensical though. And there is certainly some credit to that.  

 

So you now believe we’ve done enough testing?

I know you like to have it both ways but I’m not gonna let you. Have we done enough testing? Or in your opinion does it not matter? You have criticized trump on that in the past, so has that issue now been resolved to your satisfaction?

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Anastasis

Anastasis 23699

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1 minute ago, JimmyJames said:

So you now believe we’ve done enough testing?

I know you like to have it both ways but I’m not gonna let you. Have we done enough testing? Or in your opinion does it not matter? You have criticized trump on that in the past, so has that issue now been resolved to your satisfaction?

No. We need broad testing capability, with rapid turn around of results.  And that should feed into tracking and quarantine practices. I have never suggested anything otherwise. Stop arguing against a strawman.  

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JimmyJames

JimmyJames 12271

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Oh and as for pandemic models, I cited you an article that links and cites about a hundred other articles. I told you I would get back to you with more specific example and I will. But believe it or not, I have other things to do than answer your internet questions.

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Beantown Express 2.0

Beantown Express 2.0 6586

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3 minutes ago, 4th&Five said:

beantown, you're probably right.  and i'm sure no red state govs would do jack shit.

The only thing red state govs would end up doing is begging the federal government for help once all their people started dying.  See we need to be positive.  Maybe electing Trump actually saved lives.  Fuck it, time for more bourbon.

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JimmyJames

JimmyJames 12271

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Just now, Anastasis said:

No. We need broad testing capability, with rapid turn around of results.  And that should feed into tracking and quarantine practices. I have never suggested anything otherwise. Stop arguing against a strawman.  

So that would be a failing of the trump administration that has and will cost lives. No?

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Anastasis

Anastasis 23699

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5 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Anyone . . . ANYONE . . . who possesses even the most base level of observational skills knows beyond a shadow of a doubt that Trump fucked this up beyond any level imaginable.  It doesn't matter who the alternative would have been, Hillary, Biden, Bernie, W, you name it, they would have done better.  I mean, it's just beyond the pale to think Joe Biden would have somehow ignored all expert opinion AND failed to half-ass "secure" airways from China.  Can it be proven?  Well, no, but hey, here's some graphs that indicate blah blah blah.  Yay.

Trump has fucked up most if not all aspects of the response.  

What is fantastical however is arguing that the counterfactual would have resulted in substantively different outcomes than all of the reasonable comparison groups. 

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Anastasis

Anastasis 23699

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, JimmyJames said:

Oh and as for pandemic models, I cited you an article that links and cites about a hundred other articles. I told you I would get back to you with more specific example and I will. But believe it or not, I have other things to do than answer your internet questions.

You cited a review article that did not in any way address the specific claim that you made.  This was already pointed out to you. I was sincerely interested in where you pulled that piece of information from.  It's pretty clear at this point where you pulled it from. 

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TwiceHorn

TwiceHorn 31987

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I think Anastasis' point is that there are many things we could have done faster and better, many or most of which are Trump's fault.

However, there's not much evidence that those things would materially change where we are now.  No matter how good our testing response, we probably weren't going to have the millions of tests we'd need to get an epidemiological handle on this.  We could have started separating earlier, but would that have slowed it materially?

The materiel problem is the one that bothers me the most, as I think it really will save lives when the shit hits the fan and every day counts.

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JimmyJames

JimmyJames 12271

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45 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Meh. I've criticized plently wrt the response of the Trump admin and the related executive branch bureaucracies. But in the final analysis, I don't think that Biden or Clinton or anybody frankly would be able to wave a magic wand and turn us into Japan (note: their numbers are also bullshit, suppressed for political reasons). Nobody is really able to offer me examples of alternative policies impacting specific decision points (e.g. travel restrictions, bureaucracy stream lining @ CDC or FDA) that would put us in a substantively different place today. There are a variety of toggles we can flip. As it stands we are on a similar trajectory as every other Western nation. I think that the most fantastical position given the evidence at hand is that the alternate political reality would result in a meaningful difference in terms of the COVID crisis. But I am willing to consider evidence to the contrary. 


US is buried somewhere right about middle of the pack. 

Capturecases.jpg

 

Maybe I’m missing it but I don’t see the US in this graph. Anyone with better eyesight than me see it?

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wildcat09

wildcat09 29556

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1 hour ago, longhornmatt said:

Oh sweet mercy.  Trump must have stock in the hydroxychloroquine manufacturer.

This is the extremely obvious explanation. Trump is selling this shit for a reason and it’s not because he suddenly cares about public health.

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SmokeyTheBear

SmokeyTheBear 5569

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12 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I think Anastasis' point is that there are many things we could have done faster and better, many or most of which are Trump's fault.

However, there's not much evidence that those things would materially change where we are now.  No matter how good our testing response, we probably weren't going to have the millions of tests we'd need to get an epidemiological handle on this.  We could have started separating earlier, but would that have slowed it materially?

The materiel problem is the one that bothers me the most, as I think it really will save lives when the shit hits the fan and every day counts.

I think we would have worked with other nations to make sure we have working tests, shared knowledge and other resources. I think we would have had a singular response to gathering the necessary resources, rather than the thunderdome mentality the states are faced with. I think we would have had a singular and cohesive message to the populace earlier, rather than the hoax conspiracy bull shit. 

All of which would have had materialized into a different, improved scenario than we currently are faced with. 

Edited by SmokeyTheBear
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JimmyJames

JimmyJames 12271

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The United States used to be the leader of the world. The old US would have actively assisted other nations in dealing with this problem. The Trump US shits it’s pants and blames the Chinese for not telling us the whole truth. Like that should come as some sort of surprise. 

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Anastasis

Anastasis 23699

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4 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

This is the extremely obvious explanation. Trump is selling this shit for a reason and it’s not because he suddenly cares about public health.

It's a hail mary.  If it lands, he will use it in re-election rhetoric.  If it sails, most of his base is dead anyways. 

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JimmyJames

JimmyJames 12271

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3 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

In the middle dip shit.  Right where I said it was. 

Well maybe my phone or eyesight is fucked up but I’m seeing labels for a number of countries and the United States ain’t one of them. I would like to see the graph with the US labeled on it. 

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wildcat09

wildcat09 29556

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15 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I think Anastasis' point is that there are many things we could have done faster and better, many or most of which are Trump's fault.

However, there's not much evidence that those things would materially change where we are now.  No matter how good our testing response, we probably weren't going to have the millions of tests we'd need to get an epidemiological handle on this.  We could have started separating earlier, but would that have slowed it materially?

The materiel problem is the one that bothers me the most, as I think it really will save lives when the shit hits the fan and every day counts.

“Where we are now” and “where we are a year from now” are enormously different things. It’s probably not wrong to say that it would’ve been hard to avoid where we are now (i.e. everything basically shut down as we all quarantine in place for an indeterminate period of time) but Trump’s colossal fuckups (it’s actually too charitable to call them fuckups seeing as he spent six weeks literally doing nothing but lying about it being contained) will end up costing at a minimum a hundred thousand American lives, and that’s if we’re very very lucky.

It’s actually a very good point Beantown made that the right wing reaction to this if Hillary were president and handling things like a responsible adult would be horrific, but the number of lives that could ultimately have been be saved by quicker action on testing, materiel acquisition, professional logistical coordination, and simply not letting the fucking maintenance contract for the emergency stockpile lapse is immense. Our covid mortality rate when all is said and done will likely be the worst of any country in the developed world, and that’s on Trump.

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cactusflinthead

cactusflinthead 27626

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21 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I think Anastasis' point is that there are many things we could have done faster and better, many or most of which are Trump's fault.

However, there's not much evidence that those things would materially change where we are now.  No matter how good our testing response, we probably weren't going to have the millions of tests we'd need to get an epidemiological handle on this.  We could have started separating earlier, but would that have slowed it materially?

The materiel problem is the one that bothers me the most, as I think it really will save lives when the shit hits the fan and every day counts.

How long did it take SK? Germany? How much lead time would it take for a response team to get it all lined out for a 72 hr turn around? Y'know planning shit out in case of catastrophe.

Tests could have been and should have been like flies on cow shit by now. 

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Red Five

Red Five 41595

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He said like three different times "who has ever even heard of 180 million masks?". What a weird thing to say during a pandemic. 

"Well, I think most of us have heard of 170 million masks. Maybe half have heard of 175 million masks. And maybe a few have heard of 178 million masks. But no Mr. Dotard, no one has ever heard of 180 million masks."

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Francisco 2.0

Francisco 2.0 32543

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43 minutes ago, Beantown Express 2.0 said:

I will guaranfuckingtee you one thing.  If Hillary had been elected President and corona virus occurred the death toll would be way worse.  Mainly because every single Republican dumb ass would listen to Fox and believe it was all a hoax or just a way for the Democrats to push Socialism on us. They would refuse to do social distancing, close their stores, etc... and go ahead with their lives even though people they know would be dropping dead left and right all around them.

 

Not only that, the chemtrail folks would be running their theories 24/7 that the Covid was being sprayed by the airlines.

Come to think of that, I've not seen anything from the Q folks tying chemtrails and Covid together.  I sense an opportunity.  

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Nivek

Nivek 17330

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1 hour ago, JimmyJames said:

Here comes Anastasis once again asking everybody to provide him with proof of an alternate reality while claiming he’s criticized trump in the past when the entire message of his post is trump hasn’t done a damn thing wrong that caused further injury than what would have happened anyway. 
 

Or am I wrong? If so, I require you to provide me proof. Like our hero,  I am willing to consider some evidence to the contrary.  

He is the Susan Collins of Jeff Flakes.

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