CR: COVID-19 --Political Talk

[Brisketexan 104557]

3 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Not to defend the administration in any way, shape, or form, but from a "policy" or practical standpoint, I think Anastasis has a point.

Testing SITES is a different deal from testing CAPABILITY.  I think the capability issue is well within federal purview with its purchasing power and ability to influence federal agencies and national private industry, the sites probably ought to be left to the states and locals.

My post on the CR thread was effectively this solution:

Quote

There's an incredibly simple way to do this: Federal contracts with large chains that already have pharmacies/clinics up and running: CVS, Walgreens, Walmart, Fastmed, etc.  If needed, make additional funding available to states to enter into similar contracts with smaller, local providers (to cover small towns and such).  

Start with a GOAL -- I would suggest that the goal is for every person to have access to instant testing within twenty minutes of their home, excluding rural areas that are so spread out that such distance can't be achieved.  In such area, maybe within an hour of their home.  Then build a solution that does that.

In EVERY SINGLE LOGISTICAL MISSION, the starting point has to be setting the goal -- the "what you want to get done."  Only AFTER that is decided to you build the "how."

My goal is what I suggested.  My how is federal and state contracts with existing providers to do so.  Use resources that already exist.  And the last piece....contract with every possible manufacturer you can to make tests -- round the clock, whatever it takes.  And then distribute them to the resources you've contracted with, with a mechanism to prioritize areas experiencing a current spike in cases.

 

[Dbeasy 14963]

The above is a perfect example of why Ronald Reagan was the worst president of the 20th century.

Why?

[David Dennison 18651]

2 minutes ago, Dbeasy said:

Why?

 

Because it's a perfect illustration of the lack of faith he instilled in people regarding this country's foundational notion of self-government.

[Hiphopopotamos 20865]

 

[Degenerate Gardner 4081]

8 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

making ridiculous leaps in logic is baked in if you want to be a part of whatever is going on over there.

Exactly. See Rick Santorum evoking the threat of marriage to a box turtle. It's not about intellectual honesty, it's about providing talking points for patently dishonest people which leads serious discussion into the ditch by design.

[TXSG8R 3360]

10 minutes ago, Hiphopopotamos said:

 

Yea, dont think that call is being made by Pence's office...

[Anastasis 23393]

18 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

A virus doesn't give a single fuck about local jurisdictional boundaries.  Not only should the response be coordinated on a federal level, to the extent possible, it should be coordinated on a global level.  And if this crisis is exposing serious shortcomings in WHO (and it sure has), then we need to fucking FIX THOSE, not decide "fuck it, I think we should put all of our faith in Governor Cletus P. Dumbfuck to protect us all."

Yeah, I explicitly acknowledged the role of the federal government in leading and coordination of response, so that is a bit of a straw man.

I am not sure however that the lessen from this is that a centralized response reliant on the federal bureaucracy is the ideal solution. The states need to be empowered with the appropriate and necessary resources to drive regional response and decision making within a coordinated federal framework.  I think that Germanys testing implementation would look a lot different if they had to wait for somebody in Brussels to formulate and approve the test, much the testing strategy and roll out.  

[Brisketexan 104557]

3 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Yeah, I explicitly acknowledged the role of the federal government in leading and coordination of response, so that is a bit of a straw man.

I am not sure however that the lessen from this is that a centralized response reliant on the federal bureaucracy is the ideal solution. The states need to be empowered with the appropriate and necessary resources to drive regional response and decision making within a coordinated federal framework.  I think that Germanys testing implementation would look a lot different if they had to wait for somebody in Brussels to formulate and approve the test, much the testing strategy and roll out.  

And it would look a LOT different if they had to depend on the governor of Bavaria saying "nein, we don't need tests, God will protect us."

You love to point to the failures in the performance of the Federal government -- and I remind you, this admin has PURPOSEFULLY set up an entire executive branch apparatus that is DESIGNED to fail -- to support the idea that "we need to empower the states."

You fail to note that among those states are Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, Texas, Kansas, etc.   If our health and survival depends on the leadership decisions of those states....fuck it, we're as good as dead.

We didn't rely on Alabama and Mississippi to drive our response to the Axis in WWII.  We did so on a national level, because it was a national problem.  Can and should there be delegation to the local level?  Of course.  But it shouldn't be a "do what you want" delegation.  It should be a delegation with clear instruction and requirements.  If we set up a national testing plan, we can't delegate that to Mississippi so their governor can just say "in Mississippi, OUR tests will be asking people if they have faith in white blue-eyed Jesus, our lord and savior -- if they say yes, they are immune!" 

[jimmyjazz 45546]

52 minutes ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

Laura Ingraham going hyperbolic over Dr. Fauci:

. . .
Nice Laura. Reporter asks the top infectious disease specialist his opinion. Do you note the words, "I think" and "we should?"

Fox Entertainment tv for the triggered hate-ree-otts.

This is one of the current angles I'm seeing among right-wing opinionators (TM).  Bill Gates is another favorite target.  It smacks of "just act in your movies and shut up, we don't need your input just because you have money" (all the while providing their own input).

Why exactly do I need the input of a muffler repair guy or Karen in HR?  I don't "need" ANYONE'S input.  The thing is, sometimes it's nice to actually take a chance on learning something, say when an expert like Dr. Fauci opens his mouth.  Crazy idea, I know.

[Mo Horn 8807]

 

[pyrohornIII 4809]

12 hours ago, UpperWestside said:

My church was doing their weekly Wednesday Bible study on Zoom and one member who does our health ministry at church (Baptist church so we have a ministry for EVERYTHING) also works in a hospital and said that they had 17 patients being treated in her particular part of the hospital and the codes kept going off for them over and over Tuesday night apparently. You could hear in her voice how sad she was. I believe she said 8 or 9 of them passed away. The mental stress of being in that environment is something I cannot even begin to imagine.

All I can do is pray for the nurses, doctors and other folks there who are trying to save lives while seeing people dying all around them right now. It's just so sad. We are going to wind up seeing a slew of suicides from people in the healthcare profession because of what they are dealing with if we do not get them some counseling and therapy. If this was any other government I would think we would probably try and provide them with some free services, but with this one I feel many will just be on their own to deal with the immense tragedy they are witnessing everyday.

Trump tried to play the 'but the suicides" card as justification to keep the country open/economy strong.  He kind of laid off of it, but he got enough out to activate his mouthpieces like Zork.   Odd thing is I guess Trump was trying to project the ideas of people jumping from windows due to ruined fortunes.  Pretty sure he never took into account those suicides resulting from the healthcare group.  But sadly all these suicides will be counted as one statistic.  Hopefully someone separates the sub categories.  No matter which side, trump could have reduced the overall numbers by insuring a quick and diligent response from the outset.

[Queen Bitch 1692]

CNN needs to be loud as shit about that if true.

”We invited Dr Fauci to join tonight’s program,  but the White House has banned him from our network indefinitely.”

[Brisketexan 104557]

2 minutes ago, Mo Horn said:

 

If any of them came up with an actual plan to "responsibly open the economy," I would welcome it.

From what I've seen of red state leadership, I wouldn't hold your breath on that one, David.

[jimmyjazz 45546]

20 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Yeah, I explicitly acknowledged the role of the federal government in leading and coordination of response, so that is a bit of a straw man.

I am not sure however that the lessen from this is that a centralized response reliant on the federal bureaucracy is the ideal solution.

One factor that I think is somewhat inarguable is the power of the purse.  I don't think it's possible for individual states to budget enough to acquire and maintain enough equipment, beds, ICU rooms, etc.  Those "surge costs" have to come from the Federal government, because that entity can print money, whereas states can't, and so states must avoid operating at a deficit.  I don't think it's reasonable to expect Washington DC to handle the costs but not be involved, or indeed coordinate that policy.

Plus, as Brisket points out, it's just not reasonable to expect all 50 states to act in the best interests of their citizens.  The big question is "can we expect the Federal government to do so?"

Right now, that answer is also quite apparently "No".

[Anastasis 23393]

10 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

You love to point to the failures in the performance of the Federal government

Fair. 

If your take away from the US testing debacle is "What we need is more centralization of decision making and power in the bureaucracies at the CDC and FDA", we can just agree to disagree.

 

[Brisketexan 104557]

7 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Fair. 

If your take away from the US testing debacle is "What we need is more centralization of decision making and power in the bureaucracies at the CDC and FDA", we can just agree to disagree.

 

How about the takeaway is "instead of shitting all over our institutions, creating a death spiral of incompetence and failure, we actually maintain real oversight, expectations, and competence?"

The last 30 years of federal governance in particular have acted with PURPOSE to turn our institutions into a shitshow.  How about -- I dunno -- we stop doing that?  I don't want to put all of my faith in a CDC that is the end-product of 30+ years of disdain, neglect, and hostility - instead, I want to put my faith in a CDC that is reasonably well-run, has a well-defined mission, and genuine oversight not just as to their budget, but as to their mission performance?

Fuck your false choices.  My life shouldn't hinge on a choice between federal agencies that the GOP has purposefully undermined and bassackwards states where the GOP has enshrined faith healing above medical science.  My choice is "stop the fuckery."

[gmr548 16491]

Maybe the answer is a distributed network of strong state departments of health equipped with both the appropriate staffing and resources necessary to formulate and implement a response that makes sense on a regional basis. 

Logically this doesn't check out. If the federal government isn't the answer with all of its resources and power, how are the 50 individual states going to bat 1.000 with fewer tools and less money, while effectively communicate and share resources amongst each other? And theyb do have to bat 1.000, otherwise it doesn't matter what the other states do. This kind of situation is what the federal government exists to handle.

Not to mention, here in the real world, there are several states, including two of the three most populated, in a geographic cluster who are simply not going to make that kind of effort/investment at the state level. The second largest state in the country likes to talk about local control, but actively goes after cities and counties doing anything FOX News says is bad. These states contain two of the largest air travel hubs on Earth and several other very busy domestic and international gateways like airports, cruise terminals, and land border crossings.

Logical flaw aside, SECSECSEC renders your strategy ineffective

[Anastasis 23393]

 

4 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Fuck your false choices.  My life shouldn't hinge on a choice between federal agencies that the GOP has purposefully undermined and bassackwards states where the GOP has enshrined faith healing above medical science.  My choice is "stop the fuckery."

I don't think that I put a false choice to you.  What I did was suggest, in the context of the oft cited testing success of countries like SK and Germany, that those types of comparisons are perhaps more appropriate to an approach where we strengthen our regional capabilities within an appropriate federal framework.  

[Biff Tannen 45491]

8 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

How about the takeaway is "instead of shitting all over our institutions, creating a death spiral of incompetence and failure, we actually maintain real oversight, expectations, and competence?"

[Dahobbs 17437]

3 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

 

I don't think that I put a false choice to you.  What I did was suggest, in the context of the oft cited testing success of countries like SK and Germany, that those types of comparisons are perhaps more appropriate to an approach where we strengthen our regional capabilities within an appropriate federal framework.  

I'd like an integrated solution that utilizes synergies to create a value driven approach . . . . something something block chain.  

[workswithseed 2035]

9 minutes ago, gmr548 said:

 

 

Logically this doesn't check out. If the federal government isn't the answer with all of its resources and power, how are the 50 individual states going to bat 1.000 with fewer tools and less money, while effectively communicate and share resources amongst each other? And theyb do have to bat 1.000, otherwise it doesn't matter what the other states do. This kind of situation is what the federal government exists to handle.

Not to mention, here in the real world, there are several states, including two of the three most populated, in a geographic cluster who are simply not going to make that kind of effort/investment at the state level. The second largest state in the country likes to talk about local control, but actively goes after cities and counties doing anything FOX News says is bad. These states contain two of the largest air travel hubs on Earth and several other very busy domestic and international gateways like airports, cruise terminals, and land border crossings.

Logical flaw aside, SECSECSEC renders your strategy ineffective

 

The city paper bag ban was dumb, but is the state saying that counties can't make SIP restrictions?

[jimmyjazz 45546]

3 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

I don't think that I put a false choice to you.  What I did was suggest, in the context of the oft cited testing success of countries like SK and Germany, that those types of comparisons are perhaps more appropriate to an approach where we strengthen our regional capabilities within an appropriate federal framework.  

Why wouldn't it be reasonable to have the Federal government coordinate localized resource allocation according to need?

I mean, besides the fact that our Federal government is currently the dictionary definition of "clusterfuck".  This is where I have a problem with Brisket's take.  I absolutely agree with what he desires as an ideal solution -- I'm just overwhelmingly skeptical that it can be effected in the real world any time soon, if ever.  The problem is, the alternative is even more unrealistic.

In short, we're fucked, and will continue to marshal ineffective responses to these types of emergencies.

[Brisketexan 104557]

1 minute ago, workswithseed said:

The city paper bag ban was dumb, but is the state saying that counties can't make SIP restrictions?

Yes, that's exactly what Texas did.  Governor Abbott -- illegally, mind you -- "suspended" the statute by which cities and counties impose SIP restrictions, "to the extent that those restrictions are MORE restrictive" than the governor's.  He flat-out does not have the authority to do that (I mean, the legal argument isn't even nuanced -- it's clear)....but he's not being challenged on it because he's a mob boss, and if any local government stands up to him, he will punish them relentlessly next legislative session.

Yeah, THOSE are the folks we need to trust our lives to -- shitheel despots beholden to anti-science fuckholes who govern with a cruel iron fist.  Sounds like a PERFECT plan.

[Brisketexan 104557]

2 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

I'm just overwhelmingly skeptical that it can be effected in the real world any time soon, if ever.  The problem is, the alternative is even more unrealistic.

In short, we're fucked, and will continue to marshal ineffective responses to these types of emergencies.

Now you understand the Ledge.  We have no good choices.

Our only hope is the Trump administration....or that drooling moron governors of Mississippi, Georgia, Alabama, etc., will make sound decisions.  If those are our "only hope," then we have NO hope.

[workswithseed 2035]

Well, shit. 

[Brisketexan 104557]

15 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

 

I don't think that I put a false choice to you.  What I did was suggest, in the context of the oft cited testing success of countries like SK and Germany, that those types of comparisons are perhaps more appropriate to an approach where we strengthen our regional capabilities within an appropriate federal framework.  

Regional capabilities depend on regional leadership.  Your entire approach falls apart right there, before it even gets off the ground.

You trust your life to the decisions of Governor Cletus J. Dumbfuck, a state or two over (or in our case, right here in River City).  I do not.  As long as we have SEC country, we cannot depend on the states to act in the interest of the country as a whole.  

[gmr548 16491]

The city paper bag ban was dumb, but is the state saying that counties can't make SIP restrictions?

Brisket covered your question, but I'd also add that the state going after the bag ban was dumb and illustrative of my point.

Regardless of where one stands on the bag thing - and I doubt few really feel strongly about that particular issie - it's the fact the fact that the State of Texas apparently thinks going after local governments for bag bans, non discrimination ordinances, or whatever is a good use of time and money.

Obviously there are no better uses of state resources. Especially public health. Texas is clearly a very healthy state with a strong public health infrastructure if the state is chasing down cities for individual laws governing grocery bags and potty time.

Oh, it isn't? It's actually embarrassingly poor in terms of health metrics? The state just doesn't give a fuck? Yeah, I'm good on leaving them to their own devices.

[Mrs Whiggins 13049]

2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Regional capabilities depend on regional leadership.  Your entire approach falls apart right there, before it even gets off the ground.

You trust your life to the decisions of Governor Cletus J. Dumbfuck, a state or two over (or in our case, right here in River City).  I do not.  As long as we have SEC country, we cannot depend on the states to act in the interest of the country as a whole.  

Look at Kansas, where the governor was over-ruled by the R dominated lege. I used to think Kansas was fairly sensible when I was younger but they took the train off the rails and Cletus is waving his hat while it's barrelling off the cliff.

[hayden_horn 11360]

by the way, i'm not sure if anyone posted the tiger king exchange from yesterday's rally. here it is for those interested in the small details of the fall of our republic:

 

[Dahobbs 17437]

8 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Regional capabilities depend on regional leadership.  Your entire approach falls apart right there, before it even gets off the ground.

You trust your life to the decisions of Governor Cletus J. Dumbfuck, a state or two over (or in our case, right here in River City).  I do not.  As long as we have SEC country, we cannot depend on the states to act in the interest of the country as a whole.  

Eh, I think both your approaches are equally workable, but prone to the same failure mechanism. If you presume governmental incompetence at any level, I'm not sure I see a justification to not assume it at every level. It's turtles all the way down. Personally, I think the more redundancies you create, the better chance we have that something at some level is going to work. I'd prefer a competent Federal authority to coordinate and direct regional resources. But, if it is absent, it sure as heck would be nice to have competent and capable entities at the regional level.  

Edited April 9, 2020 by Dahobbs

[Brisketexan 104557]

1 minute ago, Dahobbs said:

Eh, I think both your approaches are equally workable, but prone to the same failure mechanism. If you presume governmental incompetence at any level, I'm not sure I see a justification to not assume it at every level. Its turtles all the way down.

Sir, are you familiar with the Ledge?  Perhaps you'd like a brochure?  You seem like a perfect fit.

[Underdog 28445]

2 hours ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

Laura Ingraham going hyperbolic over Dr. Fauci:

She is referring to a recent interview Dr. Fauci gave to the WSJ. Most of the interview (I listened to it) concerned how might society work post coronavirus restrictions. Here is his quote:
 

Nice Laura. Reporter asks the top infectious disease specialist his opinion. Do you note the words, "I think" and "we should?"

Fox Entertainment tv for the triggered hate-ree-otts.

When the list for the firing squad is made, hopefully she's on it. 

[Guest Lobo]

7 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

by the way, i'm not sure if anyone posted the tiger king exchange from yesterday's rally. here it is for those interested in the small details of the fall of our republic:

 

Yeah, look...I know it's Holy Week and I love Jesus...but if you don't think this is proof we are living in a computer simulation...you are an insane simpleton.  

During the worst pandemic in a century, the President is talking about pardoning a guy who hires assassins to take out anti-Tiger ownership spokespeople.  But yeah, we're totally fine.

[Anastasis 23393]

22 minutes ago, gmr548 said:

If the federal government isn't the answer with all of its resources and power, how are the 50 individual states going to bat 1.000 with fewer tools and less money, while effectively communicate and share resources amongst each other? And theyb do have to bat 1.000, otherwise it doesn't matter what the other states do.

Yeah, this doesn't logically flow at all.

An example specific to this discussion, look at the CDC botching of the test development. If our reliance on that work was decentralized and the FDA bureaucratic red tape did not prevent other labs from moving forward with test development, we would have multiple regional state health department and private labs working in parallel.  They don't all have to succeed.  Only one of them has to be better, faster, and more accurate than the centralized lab at the CDC. Which is actually what played out multiple times in Washington and California for example. And within a federal framework they share that success rather than bog down with FDA red tape. Some of you are fixed between two polars ends, centralization in DC or complete independence. That really wasn't what I was suggesting.

[cactusflinthead 27594]

 

[Chooky 13302]

8 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

by the way, i'm not sure if anyone posted the tiger king exchange from yesterday's rally. here it is for those interested in the small details of the fall of our republic:

 

Let's all take a moment to suspend the dark realities in this dire moment and recognize how fucking cute and adorable these motherfuckers are right now. 

[washparkhorn 9935]

Is anyone see a surge in "contact tracing" job openings? (There will be a huge need for contact tracing if we hope to open up the economy and prevent/weaken a second or third wave.) 

How confident are we in our antibody tests?

How certain are we that people cannot get sick again from COVID-19?

For this week and next (as we crest this first wave), are we prepared for the second and third wave?

[Mrs Whiggins 13049]

The news this week has been gut wrenching. High crimes and grift, death and sorrow, lies, lies and more lies. More of the folks tired of staying home and pushing for restrictions to be lifted despite what the health officials have stated.

So, I wandered over to a Twitter account I occasionally follow and found this piece about Ivanka and the economy. For back story, this Dr. Brown is a physician who bills himself as a body language and emotional intelligence expert. Yeah, I know, seems like squishy science, but it's often entertaining. For reference, the abbreviation to which he refers is autonomous sensory meridian response and is a tingling sensation/low grade euphoria that starts in the brain but is often felt elsewhere (yeah, cue the jokes). Dr. Brown believes that Ivanka is working on this technique for manipulative purposes. Of all the Trump kids, she's probably better able to pull it off if that is the case.

Anyway, for your COVID entertainment.

 

 

[washparkhorn 9935]

6 minutes ago, Chooky said:

Let's all take a moment to suspend the dark realities in this dire moment and recognize how fucking cute and adorable these motherfuckers are right now. 

Journalism schools have failed. 

[bad_teammate 13132]

 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

No covid-19 in my GOP town.  Some think it’s due to our strong religious faith while I tend to believe it’s because doctors and other wizards were outlawed years ago.

[washparkhorn 9935]

Mrs. Whig - I can definitely see and hear the ASMR. She needs more vocal fry. 

Edited April 9, 2020 by washparkhorn

[cactusflinthead 27594]

 

[Bama Chick 28596]

The city paper bag ban was dumb, but is the state saying that counties can't make SIP restrictions?

The stupid frat boy governor of Mississippi did.

This country’s response to this is only as strong as its weakest point.

If Trump starts blathering about this being over, instead of saying “lockdowns and social distancing is working and we have to keep doing what is working and red state governors feel pressure to “go back to normal” and the virus flares up again, the virus won’t stay in the states that flare up.

Same with cities in the states - if Birmingham and Huntsville keep doing the right things and the idiots in Hazel Green and Haleyville don’t, Birmingham and Huntsville will still be fucked.

[Bama Chick 28596]

Journalism schools have failed. 

Real journalists don’t work at The N.Y. Post.

It’s a clickbait tabloid full of fuckery.

[Brisketexan 104557]

2 minutes ago, cactusflinthead said:

 

Yet their entire political approach before this was that every resource we had, at a cost of billions, had to be directed to stop......illegal aliens from crossing the Rio Grande.  Illegal aliens....who kill other people at a lower rate than natural-born citizens do.  We're talking triple digits each year, that's it.

So, yeah...DEFINITELY run all of these numbers, Tucker.  If we make our decisions based on "relative deadliness," we'll never have to waste time talking about little brown people hanging sheetrock ever again.  You dumbfuck.

[gmr548 16491]

I'd like an integrated solution that utilizes synergies to create a value driven approach . . . . something something block chain.  

Bro, do you even leverage existing efficiencies?

[Biff Tannen 45491]

12 minutes ago, Bama Chick said:

If Trump starts blathering about this being over, instead of saying “lockdowns and social distancing is working and we have to keep doing what is working and red state governors feel pressure to “go back to normal” and the virus flares up again, the virus won’t stay in the states that flare up.

Combined with Barr's upcoming interview, this is EXACTLY what is going to happen and we all know it.

[Grade of D as in David 13253]

23 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

Is anyone see a surge in "contact tracing" job openings? (There will be a huge need for contact tracing if we hope to open up the economy and prevent/weaken a second or third wave.) 

How confident are we in our antibody tests?

How certain are we that people cannot get sick again from COVID-19?

For this week and next (as we crest this first wave), are we prepared for the second and third wave?

 

 

Consequences will never be the same

[washparkhorn 9935]

Art Laffer - ffs 

Quote

Laffer is also being floated in influential right-wing circles as a good candidate to head a proposed new industry task force aimed at re-opening the U.S. economy as soon as possible. “Bring in the minds like Art Laffer,” Sean Hannity, the Fox News host said April 6 of the proposed task force. 

Trump tweeted his support for the new economic task force on April 4, calling it a “good idea.” He hasn’t yet mentioned Laffer, but on Tuesday reiterated his support for a payroll tax cut, saying it would be a “fantastic time” to deliver it. 

 

Exactly the WRONG person for that job.