CR: COVID-19 --Political Talk

[SameSame 1,752]

35 minutes ago, cactusflinthead said:

 

I just now this minute got off the phone with a friend whose husband has been sick going on 3 days.  She is getting very worried and was trying to get him tested today.  No dice.

Their area only has tests available for elderly or listed pre-existing conditions.  She's still searching.

[4th&Five 42,019]

 

[henrygandorf 29,228]

3 hours ago, babysdaddy said:

You are celebrating? What the fuck is wrong with you. He left March 1st. Plus he lives in New York which, and I’m guessing by your gif you’re thrilled he’s dead, means his republican vote was irrelevant. So in general you are just happy some old guy is dead because he watched Fox News. What the fuck.

trump supporters so badly want to believe the narrative that the left is somehow rooting for the virus. 

this tells me one thing - trump supporters are scared shitless and realize he’s gonna lose. 

the virus response and what the virus itself has done to the economy will be the nail in the coffin for the trump presidency. so what is happening now is also responsible for a result that is good for the dems.

and because the gop lives in their oversimplified aggy-fied binary fox news world, whatever is bad for trump, must be what dems are rooting for. 

it has to be an us-vs-them thing.  which is why we see protests in swing states with dem govs.  it’s why he takes swings at the left every day on tv.

its fucking desperate.  go clutch your pearls elsewhere.

 

 

[elfenix 34,760]

11 hours ago, 4th&Five said:

know what else peaked april 4?

[Gengs1 2,583]

17 minutes ago, elfenix said:

know what else peaked april 4?

His hair dew?

[Gengs1 2,583]

27 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

trump supporters so badly want to believe the narrative that the left is somehow rooting for the virus. 

this tells me one thing - trump supporters are scared shitless and realize he’s gonna lose. 

the virus response and what the virus itself has done to the economy will be the nail in the coffin for the trump presidency. so what is happening now is also responsible for a result that is good for the dems.

and because the gop lives in their oversimplified aggy-fied binary fox news world, whatever is bad for trump, must be what dems are rooting for. 

it has to be an us-vs-them thing.  which is why we see protests in swing states with dem govs.  it’s why he takes swings at the left every day on tv.

its fucking desperate.  go clutch your pearls elsewhere.

 

 

They believe that the dems are using the virus excuse to kill the economy to get rid of Trump And strip them of rights, as he called it a new dem hoax.

They think this is way overblown and only happening in liberal NYC and if they open the country back up, everything will turn out fine. Trump wouldn’t lie to them.

They are only protesting against the Ds because they are trying to Flatten the curve, there is wide open Iowa and it has no issues? Sweden is open and doing well. They went their messiah to be right and libs to be wrong. 

They don’t care about any of the current Dead ppl, this is a D plot to strip their of their rights. They have no empathy for anyone only for their way or life, they don’t want to sacrifice anything for the greater good. They are protesting so they can get their hair done and buy lawn fertilizer (let that sink in).

Their motto;

Fuck you, I got mine and want to continue the way I have been.

[elfenix 34,760]

just took a look and april 4 wasn't even peak reported new cases.  it was by far the peak number of tests reported, by nearly 70,000.  so far, april 10 was the highest number of new cases reported.  at least, per 1point3acres and covidtracking.  average number of positive tests when testing multiple 10s of thousands is a bit over 19%.  and that's held true for the last week, with 19.3% average positive. 

Edited April 19, 2020 by elfenix

[DigDug 1,738]

So Drudge put out a story about the amount of rising deaths from a pandemic, and Trump's response is, you know that guys ratings have really taken a dip.

 

[elfenix 34,760]

3 minutes ago, DigDug said:

So Drudge put out a story about the amount of rising deaths from a pandemic, and Trump's response is, you know that guys ratings have really taken a dip.

 

ratings and quid pro quos are the only things he truly understands.

[Ted Lange 16,433]

20 minutes ago, Gengs1 said:

Sweden is open and doing well.

Don’t disagree with your post, but Sweden ain’t doing well.

[Bama Chick 28,596]

Don’t disagree with your post, but Sweden ain’t doing well.

[tx 3 putt 78,730]

maga crowd must have got some text messages about sweden, heard about sweden more than once. 

[FondrenRoad 4,378]

11 hours ago, GRHorn said:

Must be Jimmy. He’s the only CR person I have on ignore. 

Probably gonna sit 2020 out altogether. They’re all scumbags. 
 

My numbers were going through a hypothetical of full on outbreak impact versus the full on economic impact that we are currently experiencing. People can make their own value judgments. 
 

This is the only point I’ll make regarding abortion because it’s irrelevant here.
 

Abortion is a different animal. The direct, willful killing of a fetus is different than the decision to loosen restrictions at the potential risk of some lives being lost. Deep recessions or depressions like the one we’re now facing have high public health costs in their own right. Those need to be balanced against the threat of the disease itself. 

I understand that and stated I was doing it for fun. There will soon be many more serology data points that we can extrapolate from better. I stand by my prediction that the mortality rate will be well below 1%. 
 

My basic stance is I think the status quo into May in Texas is draconian and unnecessary. If you advocate that in any way as part of a middle ground, I reject that. 
 

Institutions I work with are confident they have capacity to handle any flare up. Of course they are motivated by finances, but it is clear here in San Antonio that they have over prepared and COVID has under delivered. 
 

I appreciate the thoughtfulness of your post. I too can sit around longer, but when I think of 60,000 new visits to our food bank and those people that desperate, it gives me more urgency to have things back to new normal ASAP. 

If you aren't worried about it, and you don't care about getting it,  then you should go ahead and get your infection over with. Do a live injection on surly.  Source virus verified by multiple trustworthy parties, of course. Let us watch what happens to you over the following month. Maybe you change some minds then. Put your money where your mouth is. 

[Ted Lange 16,433]

24 minutes ago, tx 3 putt said:

maga crowd must have got some text messages about sweden, heard about sweden more than once. 

Correct

 

https://www.mediamatters.org/coronavirus-covid-19/conservative-media-push-swedens-coronavirus-response-even-evidence-suggests-it

[Horn Under a Bad Sign 20,946]

In "water is wet" news, Florida is filled with fucking morons:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/jacksonville-florida-beaches-reopen-three-days-after-states-coronavirus-death-toll-spiked

[FondrenRoad 4,378]

4 hours ago, babysdaddy said:

You are celebrating? What the fuck is wrong with you. He left March 1st. Plus he lives in New York which, and I’m guessing by your gif you’re thrilled he’s dead, means his republican vote was irrelevant. So in general you are just happy some old guy is dead because he watched Fox News. What the fuck.

Anyone who thinks its bullshit, should inject themselves with it.  If its Fox News fault they thought it was bullshit, then Fox News should be legally responsible.  But anyone who thinks the economy is worth the risk, should at least make themselves temporarily immune, which requires infection and survival. Every protestor could be getting back to their miserable pre-covid lives in 3 to 4 weeks, or be dead.  Even NY is letting survivors go back to work in "nonessential jobs".

4 hours ago, Anastasis said:

Welcome to the cloaky. 

That goes for you too, Dr Phil. Inject yourself, survive, then back to work. 

Edited April 19, 2020 by FondrenRoad

[Pig Bellmont 8,887]

Edit for immac who needs to approve my posts- there is no way to discuss this re-opening bullshit without recognizing the *political* motivations of the right wing operatives organizing these fake protests. Thanks for your crusade tho bc I happened to point that out on your thread for snowflakes 

Edited April 19, 2020 by Pig Bellmont

[Anastasis 23,724]

4 hours ago, FondrenRoad said:

That goes for you too, Dr Phil. Inject yourself, survive, then back to work. 

Why would I do that?  I’m planning to stay sip until the daily case counts in Travis and the surrounding counties make a strong move past their peaks. And then I will continue with aggressive social distancing and mask wearing until we have a vax or compelling therapeutics. It won’t be easy since I think that we are looking at many more months of this, but it is the right thing to do for the ones that I love.  

[Message Board User 12,409]

 

[Message Board User 12,409]

nm

Edited April 19, 2020 by Message Board User

[Message Board User 12,409]

 

[WhatTheBuck 28,937]

Dr. Birx was on This Week and recommended that everyone should visit the Florida Health website because they're doing a great job keeping people informed. While they're reopening their beaches. 

Oops. Meant to post the link. I'm not dazzled. 

http://www.floridahealth.gov/

Edited April 19, 2020 by WhatTheBuck

[DixonHur 11,968]

23 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Dr. Birx was on This Week and recommended that everyone should visit the Florida Health website because they're doing a great job keeping people informed. While they're reopening their beaches. 

Oops. Meant to post the link. I'm not dazzled. 

http://www.floridahealth.gov/

I hear sun and seawater cure COVID-19...time to hit the beach

[crash_davis 23,470]

As usual, the people who love waving the American flag are pawns of a Russian agenda. To got damned stupid for their own good.

Read the post and discussion started by Dr Midnight.

 

 

[WhatTheBuck 28,937]

Lyin' Mike Pence is on Meet the Press right now still spewing bullshit and telling lies. No, you have not produced a sufficient capacity of testing you lying sack of shit. 

I had to tune out. It's almost as hard listening to that dumb motherfucker as it is listening to Trump. Meanwhile Dr. Birx is on Face the Nation praising the Florida website and how it gives details on just who got infected and where because it's that sort of localized, granular data that matters. (i.e. Pay no attention to the federal role in this.)

[Red Five 41,769]

Todd: "Hey Pence, what was up with Dotard's 'Liberate!!' tweets?"

Pence: "Well you see Chuck, because of the leadership of Donald Trump, we feel that reopening our nation blah blah blah".

Todd: "Hey you didn't answer my question asshole."

Pence: "Well you see Chuck, because of the leadership of Donald Trump, we feel that reopening our nation blah blah blah".

Slightly paraphrased. He twice gave the exact same robotic response while ignoring the question completely. 

[jimmyjazz 47,262]

On CNN this morning they interviewed Dr. Ashish Jha, a Harvard researcher who is part of a team that is estimating it will take 500K to 700K tests per day in the US to open up the economy by Mid-May.  We are currently at 146K per day.  The administration's continued assertion of the falsehood that we have plenty of testing equipment and test kits, and its refusal to take on the very clear responsibility for overseeing manufacturing plans as well as distribution is going to get many more people killed.  That blood is on Donald Trump's hands.  He needs to be in jail.

[Ten Bears 2,500]

https://www.livescience.com/covid19-coronavirus-tests-false-negatives.html

The three people that I personally know that have been tested have all tested negative.  My ex, my nephew and his girlfriend all have the classic symptoms.  All negative.  Ain't that some bullshit.

[Jive Turkey 13,016]

Sunday mornings are always embarrassing.

From "nobody could see this coming" to "Trump predicted this before anybody else knew about it."  come on Senator.  do you have a shred of integrity left? 

 

Edited April 19, 2020 by Jive Turkey

[Bateshorn 9,991]

catching Coronavirus to own the libs is an innovative political strategy.

 

Next thing you know, DeSantis will order The Villages to open for business.  

 

[TwiceHorn 32,094]

13 hours ago, Gatorubet said:

We are about to begin a battle for our nation.  And it is between those of us with a functioning brain, and the vast hoards of the stupid you see in those photos.  

It is the long simmering result of our turning our back on education, and the rise of Fox and Rush and company.  In the past, stupid people knew they were not smart, or educated on issues like science.    They respected the educated, and realized that they knew more.   Now, Fox and Facebook have told them for years that THEY know what it going on.   THEY are the smart ones, not the NY Times readers.    THEY are smart.  Listen to my talking points I heard today from both Fox TV AND radio!!!   More importantly, they have been told repeatedly that those fancy paints eggheads are REALLY not smart at all....that THEY are smarter than the stupid libtards from egg-head schools, and they don't need to listen to them.       All that stuff is FAKE!    They send each other Facebook posts with simple slogans telling each other that they are right - that the eggheads are stupid lying liberals.   Every problem in Trump World is simple; every issue is black and white.    Climate change, vaccines, Covid-19 - all made up, just like most of the stuff you hear Hannity and Alex Jones  prove is wrong.   

Well Surly, it is not going to get any better any time soon.   The folks on Team Stupid are strong.  They are strong because they have numbers, and, importantly,  because they are unified.   They have a simple and easy to understand answer to all problems.   It is those libtards who talk with faggy Beta word-speak -  like "nuance", and "measured", and "diplomatic" - and "complex solutions to difficult problems."   

Dear God, now I finally get the thing about 'sips and Aggy.  It is like Aggy was the Borg and spread out across America, assimilating.    I am decidedly on Team Hook 'Em.   With the fancy-schmancy, big word using, science appreciating team.      We will have to overthrow the whole GOP to get this country back from the science hating track.   We face an Army of Swams and 8Badmofo31s.   Which is to say, nothing can ever be said or done to convince them they are wrong.   Everyone in their family dying of Cofid-19 will not change their mind.   They'd say it was the other flu and a 'dimocrat' plot to hurt Trump with fake Covid-19 autopsy stats.   I'm not really sure we will win in the end.

I'll be at Brisket's, buying ledge-sitting pads for my ass.    

  ,

Actually, I think it's farcical to believe that the Trump-types were ever properly educated, now, 10 years ago, or 40 years ago.

The problem is the outright or benign neglect of the underclass and the just-above-underclass.

Trump stopped ignoring them and actually empowered their ignorance by being the ultimate ignoramus. 

It would have been nice if someone had stopped ignoring them without giving them an outsized voice.  By the time they were labeled "deplorables" and left to their "guns and religion," it was too late.

 

[HenryJames 67,443]

 

[HenryJames 67,443]

He’s going to lose his shit.

[jimmyjazz 47,262]

I certainly hope he gets in front of the cameras today.  Nancy is gonna catch hell.

[mdmost 44,100]

Yeah but 3rd rate politician Nancy Pelosi told people to go down to Chinatown and some of those people got infected. Same thing! GOTCHA!

[Message Board User 12,409]

Hogan about to get the Mitt Romney treatment from POTUS and his legion of MAGAts.

 

[DDD Dad 14,661]

13 hours ago, Gatorubet said:

We are about to begin a battle for our nation.  And it is between those of us with a functioning brain, and the vast hoards of the stupid you see in those photos.  

It is the long simmering result of our turning our back on education, and the rise of Fox and Rush and company.  In the past, stupid people knew they were not smart, or educated on issues like science.    They respected the educated, and realized that they knew more.   Now, Fox and Facebook have told them for years that THEY know what it going on.   THEY are the smart ones, not the NY Times readers.    THEY are smart.  Listen to my talking points I heard today from both Fox TV AND radio!!!   More importantly, they have been told repeatedly that those fancy paints eggheads are REALLY not smart at all....that THEY are smarter than the stupid libtards from egg-head schools, and they don't need to listen to them.       All that stuff is FAKE!    They send each other Facebook posts with simple slogans telling each other that they are right - that the eggheads are stupid lying liberals.   Every problem in Trump World is simple; every issue is black and white.    Climate change, vaccines, Covid-19 - all made up, just like most of the stuff you hear Hannity and Alex Jones  prove is wrong.   

Well Surly, it is not going to get any better any time soon.   The folks on Team Stupid are strong.  They are strong because they have numbers, and, importantly,  because they are unified.   They have a simple and easy to understand answer to all problems.   It is those libtards who talk with faggy Beta word-speak -  like "nuance", and "measured", and "diplomatic" - and "complex solutions to difficult problems."   

Dear God, now I finally get the thing about 'sips and Aggy.  It is like Aggy was the Borg and spread out across America, assimilating.    I am decidedly on Team Hook 'Em.   With the fancy-schmancy, big word using, science appreciating team.      We will have to overthrow the whole GOP to get this country back from the science hating track.   We face an Army of Swams and 8Badmofo31s.   Which is to say, nothing can ever be said or done to convince them they are wrong.   Everyone in their family dying of Cofid-19 will not change their mind.   They'd say it was the other flu and a 'dimocrat' plot to hurt Trump with fake Covid-19 autopsy stats.   I'm not really sure we will win in the end.

I'll be at Brisket's, buying ledge-sitting pads for my ass.    

  ,

I see you have visited the other thread. 

[WhatTheBuck 28,937]

57 minutes ago, Red Five said:

Todd: "Hey Pence, what was up with Dotard's 'Liberate!!' tweets?"

Pence: "Well you see Chuck, because of the leadership of Donald Trump, we feel that reopening our nation blah blah blah".

Todd: "Hey you didn't answer my question asshole."

Pence: "Well you see Chuck, because of the leadership of Donald Trump, we feel that reopening our nation blah blah blah".

Slightly paraphrased. He twice gave the exact same robotic response while ignoring the question completely. 

He's such a craven sycophant and political hack. And a total failure at his job. "When the President appointed me to head the Coronavirus Task Force (blah blah blah..." Just shut the fuck up, asshole. You haven't done shit and you're just trying to cover your ass. 

Oh, and when he said that no one who ever needed a ventilator couldn't get one, that was also a lie. At one point in NYC they had patients sharing ventilators because they didn't have enough for everyone. 

[Jive Turkey 13,016]

38 minutes ago, HenryJames said:

 

i do appreciate Chris Wallace poking the bear by allowing Pelosi to be on Fox.  Trump tweetstorm coming soon. 

[Wanker Bob 379]

America is quickly sliding down toward one of if not the worst countries in the developed world to live in. As long as Facebook and Twitter and Fox news, etc are allowed to keep the flow of bullshit and propaganda going it will only keep getting worse and worse. 

Shut all of that down tomorrow and make it where stupid people have to actually work hard to get out a propaganda message to hundreds of thousands/millions and this problem starts to reverse in time. 

As much as I hate to say this America is too stupid for total freedom of speech at the largest technological levels. We should have free speech at the individual level but any technology that allows idiots to easily manipulate each other with garbage on a large scale should be dismantled as it poses a greater threat to the American people than all the foreign enemy/terrorists of the world combined. And all news outlets need to be aggressively fact checked and forced to shut down after massive fines are levied if they continue to produce falsehoods. Any opinion pieces should be forced to be continuously labeled as "opinion only and not factual news". Have anything labeled news be only a reporting of facts and zero opinion or spin allowed.  

I hate that it has come to this but the American people have failed to handle the firehose of bullshit properly and need to be protected from themselves. 

Edited April 19, 2020 by Wanker Bob

[6th Street 6,693]

14 hours ago, Bama Chick said:

Dying to own the libs.

 

This is their new hoax!

[Francisco 2.0 32,607]

Seems that the Americans working for the WHO were reaching out in real time to the Trump administration, contrary to what has been spouted off for the last week or so:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/americans-at-world-health-organization-transmitted-real-time-information-about-coronavirus-to-trump-administration/2020/04/19/951c77fa-818c-11ea-9040-68981f488eed_story.html

 

Quote

More than a dozen U.S. researchers, physicians and public health experts, many of them from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, were working full time at the Geneva headquarters of the World Health Organization as the novel coronavirus emerged late last year and transmitted real-time information about its discovery and spread in China to the Trump administration, according to U.S. and international officials.

A number of CDC staffers are regularly detailed to work at WHO in Geneva as part of a rotation that has operated for years. Senior Trump-appointed health officials also consulted regularly at the highest levels with the WHO as the crisis unfolded, the officials said.

 

Quote

The presence of so many U.S. officials undercuts President Trump’s charge that the WHO’s failure to communicate the extent of the threat, born of a desire to protect China, is largely responsible for the rapid spread of the virus in the United States.

The administration has also sharply criticized the Chinese government for withholding information.

But the president, who often touts a personal relationship with Chinese President Xi Jinping and is reluctant to inflict damage on a trade deal with Beijing, appears to see the WHO as a more defenseless target.

 

 

[pyrohornIII 4,846]

10 hours ago, elfenix said:

know what else peaked april 4?

I'm gonna guess his popularity bump?  

39 minutes ago, Wanker Bob said:

America is quickly sliding down toward one of if not the worst countries in the developed world to live in. As long as Facebook and Twitter and Fox news, etc are allowed to keep the flow of bullshit and propaganda going it will only keep getting worse and worse. 

Shut all of that down tomorrow and make it where stupid people have to actually work hard to get out a propaganda message to hundreds of thousands/millions and this problem starts to reverse in time. 

As much as I hate to say this America is too stupid for total freedom of speech at the largest technological levels. We should have free speech at the individual level but any technology that allows idiots to easily manipulate each other with garbage on a large scale should be dismantled as it poses a greater threat to the American people than all the foreign enemy/terrorists of the world combined. And all news outlets need to be aggressively fact checked and forced to shut down after massive fines are levied if they continue to produce falsehoods. Any opinion pieces should be forced to be continuously labeled as "opinion only and not factual news". Have anything labeled news be only a reporting of facts and zero opinion or spin allowed.  

I hate that it has come to this but the American people have failed to handle the firehose of bullshit properly and need to be protected from themselves. 

Won't do any good to shut these down long term.  There has to be a reset on what it means to be an American, what our ideals are, and what the American dream is.  Focus on making our country better for all in the future, instead of trying to make it great again, according to old standards (based on white privilege).  Overcome the prosperity gospel and return to the golden rule.  Good leaders could do this.  They could use the tools you have listed to get that done, and if those tools don't get on board, then they lose their influence.  

The problem with all this is money, greed and power.  Too few have too much and they now control our country and it's direction through lobbying, gerrymandering, and legislation/courts. (Looking at you Citizens United)   Only a new reckoning on what is valuable in this country will make a real difference.  Put more value on what you do for others than what you keep for yourself.  All the fucking way up the ladder, Gates, Bezos, Waltons, et. al. 

[gmr548 16,703]

48 minutes ago, Wanker Bob said:

America is quickly sliding down toward one of if not the worst countries in the developed world to live in.

In terms of corruption, inequality, social mobility, and living conditions for the poor, America is starting to look more like Mexico or Brazil than what is usually considered our peer group, the rest of the west. USA is still among the best places in the world to be top quartile or so. Anything below that and the reality changes quite a bit. We are absolutely approaching third world levels of inequality.

[Henry Hill 3,156]

1 hour ago, Wanker Bob said:

America is quickly sliding down toward one of if not the worst countries in the developed world to live in. As long as Facebook and Twitter and Fox news, etc are allowed to keep the flow of bullshit and propaganda going it will only keep getting worse and worse. 

Shut all of that down tomorrow and make it where stupid people have to actually work hard to get out a propaganda message to hundreds of thousands/millions and this problem starts to reverse in time. 

As much as I hate to say this America is too stupid for total freedom of speech at the largest technological levels. We should have free speech at the individual level but any technology that allows idiots to easily manipulate each other with garbage on a large scale should be dismantled as it poses a greater threat to the American people than all the foreign enemy/terrorists of the world combined. And all news outlets need to be aggressively fact checked and forced to shut down after massive fines are levied if they continue to produce falsehoods. Any opinion pieces should be forced to be continuously labeled as "opinion only and not factual news". Have anything labeled news be only a reporting of facts and zero opinion or spin allowed.  

I hate that it has come to this but the American people have failed to handle the firehose of bullshit properly and need to be protected from themselves. 

That’s a bleak outlook. What country are you moving to?

[workswithseed 2,204]

17 minutes ago, Henry Hill said:

That’s a bleak outlook. What country are you moving to?

You're too stupid to think for yourself. Shut the fuck up you idiot. 

Wanker Bob

[williemackgarza 1,828]

Truth is radical libs and radical repubs are both fuckin idiots.

[Hank Scorpio 17,924]

9 minutes ago, williemackgarza said:

Truth is radical libs and radical repubs are both fuckin idiots.

I wasn’t sure I believed this, but you started with “truth is” so fuck me it must be true. And if that’s the case, holy shit willie Mack, you’ve just blown this whole politics thing wide open. Do you have any thoughts on cures to diseases where said cure is actually more harmful than the disease? Thanks, I’ll hang up and listen.  

[Wanker Bob 379]

43 minutes ago, pyrohornIII said:

I'm gonna guess his popularity bump?  

Won't do any good to shut these down long term.  There has to be a reset on what it means to be an American, what our ideals are, and what the American dream is.  Focus on making our country better for all in the future, instead of trying to make it great again, according to old standards (based on white privilege).  Overcome the prosperity gospel and return to the golden rule.  Good leaders could do this.  They could use the tools you have listed to get that done, and if those tools don't get on board, then they lose their influence.  

The problem with all this is money, greed and power.  Too few have too much and they now control our country and it's direction through lobbying, gerrymandering, and legislation/courts. (Looking at you Citizens United)   Only a new reckoning on what is valuable in this country will make a real difference.  Put more value on what you do for others than what you keep for yourself.  All the fucking way up the ladder, Gates, Bezos, Waltons, et. al. 

I'm wondering how does America return to good leaders when elections have become tribal popularity contests devoid of any legitimate issues? Most of which is exacerbated by the social media propaganda machine. Getting rid of them isn't the only step back but I don't see any way back without that step. 

[Message Board User 12,409]

Honeymooned in NZ and I would move there in a second if it was feasible.  Smart populace as well.