CR: COVID-19 --Political Talk

[SimonBolivar 11078]

2 hours ago, Post Oak said:

 

I'd much rather have Karl as president. Sure he'd whine all the time and fall for the same stupid theories as Trump does, but he'd at least care about the people.

[Message Board User 12409]

 

[jimmyjazz 47397]

Man, I'm not trusting any "new case" data, ever.  It's all bullshit.

I'll trust mortality, and to some degree hospitalizations.  Beyond that, it's unknown.  There is no reliable case count.

[RPM 26698]

I'm not trusting case reports until we ramp up testing. 100% of people not tested aren't testing positive.

[Francisco 2.0 32689]

1 hour ago, Loch Ness Monster said:

All I hear among my right wing friends is something along the lines of "corona deaths are probably not even that high. If a cancer patient has corona and dies they will say its corona."

Lots of young people definitely in dgaf mode now which I guess makes some sense looking at the age of rona deaths.

Or...."they are classifying everything a corona death because they get more money that way".

 

 

[jimmyjazz 47397]

20 minutes ago, Francisco 2.0 said:

Or...."they are classifying everything a corona death because they get more money that way".

 

 

Yeah, the "have you seen how much they charge to put a patient on a ventilator?" angle is precious.

Fuck.  Have you seen how much they charge to set a fucking broken leg?

[WhatTheBuck 28958]

1 hour ago, Loch Ness Monster said:

All I hear among my right wing friends is something along the lines of "corona deaths are probably not even that high. If a cancer patient has corona and dies they will say its corona."

Lots of young people definitely in dgaf mode now which I guess makes some sense looking at the age of rona deaths.

Invite them all to your poker game. 

[Mrs Whiggins 13052]

2 hours ago, henrygandorf said:

plan:

step 1 - get his ass

step 2 - high five

end of list.

I'm not crying, you're crying.

You know why Russia and Trump were so afraid of her. She would have rick rolled him into prison and he would've thought he was getting a new tv show up until the door locked.

[Grade of D as in David 13256]

2 hours ago, Loch Ness Monster said:

All I hear among my right wing friends is something along the lines of "corona deaths are probably not even that high. If a cancer patient has corona and dies they will say its corona."

Lots of young people definitely in dgaf mode now which I guess makes some sense looking at the age of rona deaths.

Ask your friends if a cancer patient is killed by an undocumented immigrant from Guatamala if they were probably going to die of cancer anyway.

[Bullneck 19654]

6 hours ago, 4th&Five said:

anyone else think he's going to give away all our ventilators before we really need them in the fall?

 

C'mon.  That would be idiotic.  So, yeah, I guess.

(Do they use 220v power in India?  Just spitballing here).

[UpperWestside 6286]

6 hours ago, 4th&Five said:

anyone else think he's going to give away all our ventilators before we really need them in the fall?

 

This guy is just one stupid mother fucker. He puts his ignorance of the situation right out there for everyone to see. We'll need those ventilators later this year. Just fuck him and his cult.

[Mrs Whiggins 13052]

7 minutes ago, UpperWestside said:

This guy is just one stupid mother fucker. He puts his ignorance of the situation right out there for everyone to see. We'll need those ventilators later this year. Just fuck him and his cult.

Transactions, transactions, transactions. You and your needs are a nothingburger to him.

https://www.trump.com/residential-real-estate-portfolio/trump-towers-pune-india

Quote

A pair of sleek ultra-modern towers that redefine the Pune skyline, Trump Towers Pune marks the entry of the Trump brand of luxury and elegance in India. As the first Trump project in India, Trump Towers Pune is a blend of modern architecture, cultural richness and an oasis of elite comfort. Trump branded residences are famous for their opulence and gilded luxury and have dominated skylines across the world. Developed by Panchshil Realty, Pune’s leading real-estate developer, located in upscale Kalyani Nagar neighborhood, the Trump legacy now incorporates itself into the fabric of contemporary India. 

From Investopedia:

India is the Trump Organization's second-largest market outside of North America.

From 2019:

In July, Donald Trump Jr. told The Hindustan Times that the company is very "bullish" on India and that it plans to build a pan-India development footprint for Trump branded projects. He said, "We have a very aggressive pipeline in the north and east and look forward to the announcement of several exciting new projects in the months ahead." 

Trump's real estate firm invests no money in the country but charges royalty for having its brand associated with the buildings.

Edited May 16, 2020 by Mrs Whiggins
edit

[Gatorubet 30836]

4 hours ago, washparkhorn said:

The need for a fiscal response is becoming dire when you see what it is doing to the upper middle class, let alone the rest of the middle and working classes who have little in the way of retirement accounts:

 

"Nobody has done more to reduce wealth inequity than me..." - Trump

[gmr548 16704]

7 hours ago, Lobo said:

The only test Trump ever double checked in his life was the paternity test for Ivanka.  The positive result really bummed him out, too. 

Idk he seems a little turned on by it.

[Bullneck 19654]

All countries run by women:

Edited May 16, 2020 by Bullneck
All are countries run by women.

[Pancho 46506]

Posted a pic of me in my Longhorn mask at HEB on FB.  A conversation starts and corona vaccine is brought up. A right wing friend (actually just an acquaintance) gets on my feed saying the survival rate of corona is 99.1% so why would I get the vaccine when it will be effectively useless just like the flu vaccine. 

These people. 

[tx 3 putt 78893]

15 minutes ago, Pancho said:

Posted a pic of me in my Longhorn mask at HEB on FB.  A conversation starts and corona vaccine is brought up. A right wing friend (actually just an acquaintance) gets on my feed saying the survival rate of corona is 99.1% so why would I get the vaccine when it will be effectively useless just like the flu vaccine. 

These people. 

give it a couple more days and that survival rate will be 99.99%

[WhatTheBuck 28958]

20 minutes ago, Pancho said:

Posted a pic of me in my Longhorn mask at HEB on FB.  A conversation starts and corona vaccine is brought up. A right wing friend (actually just an acquaintance) gets on my feed saying the survival rate of corona is 99.1% so why would I get the vaccine when it will be effectively useless just like the flu vaccine. 

These people. 

Quit Facebook. 

[Longhorn_Fan68 34108]

hoax

 

[4th&Five 42070]

 

[Bullneck 19654]

1 hour ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

hoax

 

That death rate looks to be higher than the 1% to 2% tossed about a month or so ago.

[Upgrayedd 5917]

1 hour ago, 4th&Five said:

 

What if he was on the Trump Honor Roll for $5?

[elfenix 34821]

6 hours ago, RPM said:

Thank you @trauma babe for doing all you do. If you ever tell me to roll over I won't argue.

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

[pantone159 732]

21 hours ago, Pescado_Rojo said:

If WWII happened today, half the people living in coastal cities would refuse to black out their windows

This actually happened during WWII. Soon after the USA entered the war, the Germans sent some submarines to attack shipping on the east coast of the USA. They were devastating at first, partially because the merchants refused to turn off the lights, it was bad for business, and then the silhouettes of ships were easy to find and easy pickings.

 

[Wanker Bob 379]

13 hours ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

hoax

 

So known case count to known deaths, both of which are surely well underreported, on May 15 extrapolated out to 57 percent of the population at 200,000,000 cases would be 12.1 million deaths. Of course there's other considerations but our strict testing data so far does not paint a good picture. 

[Brisketexan 107100]

2 minutes ago, Wanker Bob said:

So known case count to known deaths, both of which are surely well underreported, on May 15 extrapolated out to 57 percent of the population at 200,000,000 cases would be 12.1 million deaths. Of course there's other considerations but our strict testing data so far does not paint a good picture. 

Yeah, dude....CFR is a terrible tool for extrapolation.  We KNOW that the infection rate is several orders of magnitude greater than the confirmed case rate.  No, we don't know precisely, but we know it's significant.  So that extrapolation isn't just useless, it's counter-productive in how alarmist it is.

Data that is used to DOWNPLAY the significance of the disease ("it's just the flu!") is harmful.

Data that is used to OVERSTATE the deadliness of the disease ("12.1 million deaths!") is harmful.

We should use the most accurate data we have for a given purpose, applied in a statistically sound manner, to drive our decisions.  It won't be PERFECT, but it will be within a zone of some accuracy and reasonableness.

[Message Board User 12409]

 

[Wanker Bob 379]

39 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Yeah, dude....CFR is a terrible tool for extrapolation.  We KNOW that the infection rate is several orders of magnitude greater than the confirmed case rate.  No, we don't know precisely, but we know it's significant.  So that extrapolation isn't just useless, it's counter-productive in how alarmist it is.

Data that is used to DOWNPLAY the significance of the disease ("it's just the flu!") is harmful.

Data that is used to OVERSTATE the deadliness of the disease ("12.1 million deaths!") is harmful.

We should use the most accurate data we have for a given purpose, applied in a statistically sound manner, to drive our decisions.  It won't be PERFECT, but it will be within a zone of some accuracy and reasonableness.

that's why I said there's other considerations but It's still conceivable that over three million people could die from this in the us alone. Especially since we're inching closer by the minute to just going full on wild west 

[Brisketexan 107100]

2 minutes ago, Wanker Bob said:

that's why I said there's other considerations but It's still conceivable that over three million people could die from this in the us alone. Especially since we're inching closer by the minute to just going full on wild west 

Again, anything's possible.  Coughing in each other's faces could become the next craze.  Locking everyone in a hole could be.  But our decisions should be based on sound data, not on EITHER extreme of what "could" happen.  Based on what we know about our current and trending behavior, and how the virus performs....that's what we should discuss.   Sorry, I just think that continued discussion of alarmist "well this COULD happen!" is not helpful in any way.

[Grade of D as in David 13256]

16 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Again, anything's possible.  Coughing in each other's faces could become the next craze.  Locking everyone in a hole could be.  But our decisions should be based on sound data, not on EITHER extreme of what "could" happen.  Based on what we know about our current and trending behavior, and how the virus performs....that's what we should discuss.   Sorry, I just think that continued discussion of alarmist "well this COULD happen!" is not helpful in any way.

How are we supposed to get sound data with all of the bullshit going on around testing?

[Brisketexan 107100]

Just now, Grade of D as in David said:

How are we supposed to get sound data with all of the bullshit going on around testing?

Well, gee, there's part of the problem, ain't it?  I never said we aren't fucked.  I'm just saying we have to work with the most accurate data we have.  Wild extrapolations just don't help.

 

[Horn Under a Bad Sign 21002]

Cornyn is scared.

 

 

[WBT 21146]

"China is to blame, NOT President Trump"

Why not both?

[Grade of D as in David 13256]

3 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Well, gee, there's part of the problem, ain't it?  I never said we aren't fucked.  I'm just saying we have to work with the most accurate data we have.  Wild extrapolations just don't help.

 

I agree about the wild speculation piece, but the data we have is shit. And is purposefully shitty. If we can't even keep the spread out 1600 Pennsylvania Ave with testing and temperature checks I don't think it's too far of a stretch to think that this is going to be much much worse from a healthcare standpoint which will compound the economic impact.

I walk through the domain every evening for a bit of fresh air, sunshine, and exercise but mostly to clear my head (with a mask) and for the past week or so the entire patio of cyclone anayas is full. Not every other table full, but packed to capacity. The nail salon Caesars is only taking reservations but looking through the window every nail station is occupied without regard to spacing. 

If as a society we can't even follow the recommendations for safely opening up I don't think it's wild speculation to expect this to get much worse. We're basically at the point of just letting it rip and if you don't think millions will die under those circumstances (especially with the comorbidities present in much of our population) I have to disagree.

[Wanker Bob 379]

The fire started in China. Trump doused America in gasoline. 

[Brisketexan 107100]

1 minute ago, Grade of D as in David said:

I agree about the wild speculation piece, but the data we have is shit. And is purposefully shitty. If we can't even keep the spread out 1600 Pennsylvania Ave with testing and temperature checks I don't think it's too far of a stretch to think that this is going to be much much worse from a healthcare standpoint which will compound the economic impact.

I walk through the domain every evening for a bit of fresh air, sunshine, and exercise but mostly to clear my head (with a mask) and for the past week or so the entire patio of cyclone anayas is full. Not every other table full, but packed to capacity. The nail salon Caesars is only taking reservations but looking through the window every nail station is occupied without regard to spacing. 

If as a society we can't even follow the recommendations for safely opening up I don't think it's wild speculation to expect this to get much worse. We're basically at the point of just letting it rip and if you don't think millions will die under those circumstances (especially with the comorbidities present in much of our population) I have to disagree.

The US is not the whole world.  There's data to be gathered and reviewed from all over the world -- we can look at infection rates etc. around other places.  Yes, there are variables.  But again, some of those variables include keeping the most vulnerable people protected (and other variables show what happens when they AREN'T proteced -- Italy).  This is a global, human issue.  The information should be gathered and used as such.

Yes, if we go full "fuck it all, " and tell grandma to go hit up the nightclubs, we could be looking at millions dead.  But there's no indication we're doing that, so there's no real point in discussing that.

[Wanker Bob 379]

1 minute ago, Grade of D as in David said:

I agree about the wild speculation piece, but the data we have is shit. And is purposefully shitty. If we can't even keep the spread out 1600 Pennsylvania Ave with testing and temperature checks I don't think it's too far of a stretch to think that this is going to be much much worse from a healthcare standpoint which will compound the economic impact.

I walk through the domain every evening for a bit of fresh air, sunshine, and exercise but mostly to clear my head (with a mask) and for the past week or so the entire patio of cyclone anayas is full. Not every other table full, but packed to capacity. The nail salon Caesars is only taking reservations but looking through the window every nail station is occupied without regard to spacing. 

If as a society we can't even follow the recommendations for safely opening up I don't think it's wild speculation to expect this to get much worse. We're basically at the point of just letting it rip and if you don't think millions will die under those circumstances (especially with the comorbidities present in much of our population) I have to disagree.

This is what I was thinking. A lot of the projections based on even sketchy data were for an America with restrictions in place and actual care taken. America has shown it doesn't even have the stomach for 2 full months of restrictions. There's zero chance we last much longer without going full tilt open and Americans will flood places and crowd each other like crazy because they're already fatigued beyond exasperation from only 8 weeks.

The virus is laying in wait and once that dam of caution and restrictions breaks open the death count surely will rise into the millions. At least that's what it looks like to me. 

[Wanker Bob 379]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

The US is not the whole world.  There's data to be gathered and reviewed from all over the world -- we can look at infection rates etc. around other places.  Yes, there are variables.  But again, some of those variables include keeping the most vulnerable people protected (and other variables show what happens when they AREN'T proteced -- Italy).  This is a global, human issue.  The information should be gathered and used as such.

Yes, if we go full "fuck it all, " and tell grandma to go hit up the nightclubs, we could be looking at millions dead.  But there's no indication we're doing that, so there's no real point in discussing that.

I can't believe I have even less faith in Americans than you do but somehow I think opening up America and saying fuck caution will actually be a national rallying cry. It just seems to be headed that way. Hopefully your level of cynicism is more accurate than mine. 

[Hookah Horns 3089]

22 minutes ago, Horn Under a Bad Sign said:

Cornyn is scared.

 

 

Parroting the rnc talking points like a good soldier. 

[Brisketexan 107100]

4 minutes ago, Wanker Bob said:

There's zero chance we last much longer without going full tilt open and Americans will flood places and crowd each other like crazy because they're already fatigued beyond exasperation from only 8 weeks.

Except the data, both based on actions and polling, shows the opposite.  Even in areas where businesses are reopened (a handful of pictures of crowded bars aside), people are remaining VERY cautious.  Restaurants aren't even seeing their dining rooms fill at 25 or 50% capacity.  Because people are choosing caution.  Yes, there are demographics and groups that ARE saying fuck it, and WILL increase infections some, but understand that the majority of the population is not acting that way.  It's not a question of my faith in them or not -- it's a question of us observing how people are actually behaving.

Yes, we're going stir crazy.  Yes, we can't stay in full lockdown forever.  Nor should we.  But we're not seeing the hard opposite -- the American people saying "fuck it" and everyone showing up to a crowded party to cough on each other.

[Brisketexan 107100]

Just now, Hookah Horns said:

Parroting the rnc talking points like a good soldier. 

He has become an empty husk of a man, devoid of any spine, principles, or anything of that sort.  He is just an empty vessel, waiting to be filled with Trumpism to spew it later at his master's behest.  

If it wasn't so evil, it would be sad to watch.  He's a non-entity, a true nothing.  He's just whatever a vile creature wants him to be in a given moment.  How humiliating.  What a pathetic legacy.  He was on track for a legacy of, at worst, "former US Senator."  Now, he's just going to go down in the books as "another Trump lackey."  The level of debasement that GOP officials have CHOSEN for themselves is one of the things that still amazes me.

[Wanker Bob 379]

Just now, Brisketexan said:

Except the data, both based on actions and polling, shows the opposite.  Even in areas where businesses are reopened (a handful of pictures of crowded bars aside), people are remaining VERY cautious.  Restaurants aren't even seeing their dining rooms fill at 25 or 50% capacity.  Because people are choosing caution.  Yes, there are demographics and groups that ARE saying fuck it, and WILL increase infections some, but understand that the majority of the population is not acting that way.  It's not a question of my faith in them or not -- it's a question of us observing how people are actually behaving.

Yes, we're going stir crazy.  Yes, we can't stay in full lockdown forever.  Nor should we.  But we're not seeing the hard opposite -- the American people saying "fuck it" and everyone showing up to a crowded party to cough on each other.

I think it's that way right now only because we still have restrictions in place. I could be wrong about this but I just don't see how Americans will have any discipline whatsoever once restrictions are taken away completely. Much less Texans. 

[Bullneck 19654]

20 minutes ago, WBT said:

"China is to blame, NOT President Trump"

Why not both?

$10, please.

[Brisketexan 107100]

Just now, Wanker Bob said:

I think it's that way right now only because we still have restrictions in place. I could be wrong about this but I just don't see how Americans will have any discipline whatsoever once restrictions are taken away completely. Much less Texans. 

That just doesn't make sense, and doesn't match actual behavior.  We have a certain level of freedom (e.g., we can go eat at restaurants at 25-50% capacity).  But we aren't exercising that level -- we remain cautious.  Polling of people indicates the same.  Polling of people in individual workplaces remains the same.  YES, there are SOME in Texas who will do so.  But the actual actions that we are seeing in real-time tell us otherwise.  I mean, you can think that we have some pent-up reservoir of recklessness waiting to burst through, but that's not how we're acting.

[Lurch 5952]

Except the data, both based on actions and polling, shows the opposite.  Even in areas where businesses are reopened (a handful of pictures of crowded bars aside), people are remaining VERY cautious.  Restaurants aren't even seeing their dining rooms fill at 25 or 50% capacity.  Because people are choosing caution.  Yes, there are demographics and groups that ARE saying fuck it, and WILL increase infections some, but understand that the majority of the population is not acting that way.  It's not a question of my faith in them or not -- it's a question of us observing how people are actually behaving.
Yes, we're going stir crazy.  Yes, we can't stay in full lockdown forever.  Nor should we.  But we're not seeing the hard opposite -- the American people saying "fuck it" and everyone showing up to a crowded party to cough on each other.

I think some are misconstruing the opening with a regional or business-type all-clear. “Why would local govt allow hair/nail salons and gyms to open if it wasn’t safe?” I’ve heard as much from otherwise smart people.

[Brisketexan 107100]

2 minutes ago, Lurch said:

 

I think some are misconstruing the opening with a regional or business-type all-clear. “Why would local govt allow hair/nail salons and gyms to open if it wasn’t safe?” I’ve heard as much from otherwise smart people.
 

 

You may have heard it.  But the actual data -- the economic activity happening -- says that people aren't running out to be in crowds and risk their health.  I mean, I know we think everyone is stupid (I sure do), and we hear idiots at loud volume....but the ACTUAL PERFORMANCE, what is ACTUALLY HAPPENING, doesn't bear that out.  Most restaurants that are open are NOT being filled even to their reduced capacity.  The nail salon doesn't have 'em lined up.  They just don't.  People remain cautious -- and that data bears out everywhere this is happening - Texas, Georgia, wherever.

[Grade of D as in David 13256]

4 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

The US is not the whole world.  There's data to be gathered and reviewed from all over the world -- we can look at infection rates etc. around other places.  Yes, there are variables.  But again, some of those variables include keeping the most vulnerable people protected (and other variables show what happens when they AREN'T proteced -- Italy).  This is a global, human issue.  The information should be gathered and used as such.

Yes, if we go full "fuck it all, " and tell grandma to go hit up the nightclubs, we could be looking at millions dead.  But there's no indication we're doing that, so there's no real point in discussing that.

Cool

 

[Lurch 5952]

You may have heard it.  But the actual data -- the economic activity happening -- says that people aren't running out to be in crowds and risk their health.  I mean, I know we think everyone is stupid (I sure do), and we hear idiots at loud volume....but the ACTUAL PERFORMANCE, what is ACTUALLY HAPPENING, doesn't bear that out.  Most restaurants that are open are NOT being filled even to their reduced capacity.  The nail salon doesn't have 'em lined up.  They just don't.  People remain cautious -- and that data bears out everywhere this is happening - Texas, Georgia, wherever.

You say that, but I know one of our local nail salons is booked through next Saturday. I saw a ridiculously packed restaurant patio packed last night and a 20-30 person line waiting to get inside. I’ve read other local reports of our better restaurants also having lines outside. Granted, weekend at a beach town here.

Perhaps, though, the data you are referencing is lagging and/or attitudes are quickly changing

[Brisketexan 107100]

Just now, Lurch said:

 

You say that, but I know one of our local nail salons is booked through next Saturday. I saw a ridiculously packed restaurant patio packed last night and a 20-30 person line waiting to get inside. I’ve read other local reports of our better restaurants also having lines outside. Granted, weekend at a beach town here.

Perhaps, though, the data you are referencing is lagging and/or attitudes are quickly changing

 

Well, clearly, local variations will apply -- easy-to-visit destinations will see weekend crowds.  But in most cities, restaurants aren't getting hit hard yet.  And even with booked nail salons, they're booked under rules of masks, separation, etc.  No, it's not TOTAL SEPARATION, but there are transmission reducing measures in place, and by and large, they're being followed in such places.

Social-commercial interactions remain greatly reduced, which reduces transmission risk.

[Mrs Whiggins 13052]

1 hour ago, Horn Under a Bad Sign said:

Cornyn is scared.
 

I'm going for the trifecta: I'm blaming China, Trump, and Cornyn. Sorry senator, I spent that ten dollars at the liquor store this morning and guess what? It's all your fault!

35 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

But the actual actions that we are seeing in real-time tell us otherwise.  I mean, you can think that we have some pent-up reservoir of recklessness waiting to burst through, but that's not how we're acting.

Among the majority, perhaps. But there are still swaths of people who are more focused on their version of the immediate than the long term. Perhaps I am being too harsh, but I see immediate needs as being: helping people have food to eat, aren't getting tossed out on the street, and have access to health care. In other words, food banks like @Enchubbenwas volunteering with, rent vouchers/mortgage extensions for those who are struggling with shelter, and making sure that (in addition to COVID care) clinics and hospitals can treat non emergency health needs and surgeries. Immediate needs like assisting employees with child care, testing and protection for communities esp with vulnerable populations, and so on. Those types of events inspire confidence that give hope to citizens that we are working together to support our community, its people, and thus the economic engine that we, the people, should be driving. But others' version of immediate needs is different. I guess I understand it, after all--there is an interconnectedness among all of us, but I do wish some of the people I know would be a little more cognizant of the hierarchy of needs.

Are other parents I know talking about those topics? A few are, and they have always been very self aware people. But--- What am I seeing as the dominant conversation among many parents in my circle? Their children in high school athletics absolutely must be allowed to begin practicing in June or everything will be lost. Now, is that hyperbole on their part? Yes, I believe so. But, it pains me that those specific parents (in conversation) seem determined to make it all their way, the way it used to be and "if you're afraid stay home," without any rational fact based discussion on ways to mitigate exposure AND allow extracurricular activities to commence. In other words, a discussion of how best to accommodate summer activities for youth in a best practices type of way so that children can get used to some new social mores surrounding our communities under the guidance of adults. But that is the key word here, "adults." I see way too much childish behavior by the very people that can and should be examples for how one can participate in society as we lift restrictions in a smart and responsible way.

Earlier this year I left the lanai for the ledge, but the way things have been going, it's definitely Biff's ledge in appearance, although if Daniel Craig wants to grab his martini and have a seat, I would ask that he hand me his car keys first. Not because of drinking and driving, though. If Trump gets re-elected, I'm pushing Daniel off and heading for Canada in the Aston Martin.

 

Edited May 16, 2020 by Mrs Whiggins
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