CR: COVID-19 --Political Talk

[4th&Five 41457]

Just now, BNB said:

Now atheists complaining the president is not religious enough. You guys cracks me up.

not surprisingly you missed the point.

Edited May 20, 2020 by 4th&Five

[wildcat09 29213]

Obviously everyone who isn’t a Republican is an atheist. 

[TXSG8R 3360]

8 minutes ago, triplehorn said:

It's also a CYA explanation to leave yourself an out for stockpiling it, should they need it.  Again the takeaway is that they're studying its applicability and getting real time feedback as they simultaneously are opting to stockpile it.  The thrust of the article isn't about covering for sufferers of lupus and RA.  Given the controversy, it's a smart position to take.

Look, no need to overthink this.  If something were so dangerous, for anyone for any condition, it wouldn't be getting stockpiled for any reason.  Replicated gold standard RCT studies are lacking today but there are a lot of other experimental designs and ways to assess what you've got now, and I'm struggling to find any country bailing on HCQ for Cov.  It's the opposite outside of the US.

I'm assuming a general advocacy stance for now and will ditch any consideration of HCQ for use in early intervention or prophylaxis should the science support abandoning it.  So far it hasn't.

I don't think that's true at all.  It can be dangerous for one combination of conditions, but be effective treatment for a different combination of conditions.  That is where we are, no real studies showing the efficacy of HCQ for COVID, and if anything, having an adverse affect for certain patients with heart issues.  It does have efficacy for treatment of lupus, malaria, etc. 

And how does real-time feedback work when it comes to a study?   In real-time, this guy looks like hes doing great.  At the end of the study, that guy may have heart damage and show no real benefit when compared to the control group.  That's the entire reason you do a full study, to take the anecdotal "real-time" information out of your decision loop.

[Longhorn_Fan68 33831]

7 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Obviously everyone who isn’t a Republican is an atheist. 

well, it's true for me. so it must be true for everyone.

[triplehorn 2664]

29 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Triple’s boner for HCQ is wild. 

Like I said just above, I'm taking a general advocacy stance until it's demonstrated to be of no benefit in early intervention or prophylaxis.  

 

15 minutes ago, TXSG8R said:

I don't think that's true at all.  It can be dangerous for one combination of conditions, but be effective treatment for a different combination of conditions.  That is where we are, no real studies showing the efficacy of HCQ for COVID, and if anything, having an adverse affect for certain patients with heart issues.  It does have efficacy for treatment of lupus, malaria, etc. 

And how does real-time feedback work when it comes to a study?   In real-time, this guy looks like hes doing great.  At the end of the study, that guy may have heart damage and show no real benefit when compared to the control group.  That's the entire reason you do a full study, to take the anecdotal "real-time" information out of your decision loop.

Here's one that published 5 days ago: 

Low dose of hydroxychloroquine reduces fatality of critically ill patients with COVID-19

notable table:

Quote

They made these observations as well:

"Furthermore, we analyzed the effects of different IL-6 levels on death risk in response to HCQ treatment and found that when the IL-6 levels were higher than 60 pg mL–1, patients were more severe. For patients with IL-6 levels higher than 60 pg mL–1, HCQ treatment decreased IL-6 level from 100.0 (62.6–189.4) pg mL–1 to 28.4 (10.9–59.3) pg mL–1 after 5 days’ treatment, and reached 9.8 (5.5–24.6) pg mL–1 after 10 days’ treatment. In contrast, in the NHCQ-treated patients, IL-6 levels were elevated from 87.5 (72.9–240.3) pg mL–1 to 92.4 (34.1–199.3) pg mL–1 after 5 days, and reached 110.4 (31.6–235.6) pg mL–1 after 10 days."

---> IL-6 is an immune response associated cytokine associated with complications like vasculitis affecting heart and lung function and collateral damage to other tissues.  This likely plays a role when Cov patients acutely deteriorate.

Edited May 20, 2020 by triplehorn

[Judge Roybeanbag 11802]

27 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

Atheists?

Shut up you socialist commie libtard!

[cactusflinthead 27594]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

Quoted for head-shaking, pathetic truth.  I just don't get it.

In the greatest crisis to face humanity in 3 generations, the President of the United States, the leader of the nation and arguably the entire free world....has offered effectively nothing in terms of faith, prayer, etc.  He couldn't say less about it if he purposefully tried NOT to say anything spiritual.  In terms of spiritual leadership of the American people, he's literally the least "Christian" president we've EVER HAD.  Yet he's the evangelicals' champion.....which sure as shit tells you they aren't about genuine faith AT ALL.

Yeah, but abortion 

[4th&Five 41457]

 

[Degenerate Gardner 4081]

Seems like an ideal time to replace the CDC Director with a lackey. Is the My Pillow guy available?

[TXSG8R 3360]

4 minutes ago, triplehorn said:

Like I said just above, I'm taking a general advocacy stance until it's demonstrated to be of no benefit in early intervention or prophylaxis.  

 

Here's one that published 5 days ago: 

Low dose of hydroxychloroquine reduces fatality of critically ill patients with COVID-19

notable table:

They made these observations as well:

"Furthermore, we analyzed the effects of different IL-6 levels on death risk in response to HCQ treatment and found that when the IL-6 levels were higher than 60 pg mL–1, patients were more severe. For patients with IL-6 levels higher than 60 pg mL–1, HCQ treatment decreased IL-6 level from 100.0 (62.6–189.4) pg mL–1 to 28.4 (10.9–59.3) pg mL–1 after 5 days’ treatment, and reached 9.8 (5.5–24.6) pg mL–1 after 10 days’ treatment. In contrast, in the NHCQ-treated patients, IL-6 levels were elevated from 87.5 (72.9–240.3) pg mL–1 to 92.4 (34.1–199.3) pg mL–1 after 5 days, and reached 110.4 (31.6–235.6) pg mL–1 after 10 days."

 

From that paper.

Quote

We also noticed a couple of negative reports about CQ and HCQ (Geleris et al., 2020; Mahevas et al., 2020; Magagnoli et al., 2020). However, based on the results in these studies, it is very likely that they used high doses of HCQ, which might induce cardiotoxicity and death. They might also have used high doses of HCQ as antiviral agents rather than for antiinflammation. In contrast, the dose of HCQ used in the present study is much lower than that in previous studies but is the same as used for treating inflammatory diseases, and thus HCQ for COVID-19 patients works more likely as an agent for anti-inflammation and immunomodulation, rather than as a direct antiviral agent.

Quote

In summary, this retrospective study demonstrates that HCQ significantly reduces death risk of critically ill COVID19 patients without apparent toxicity, and its mechanism of
action is likely mediated through its inhibition of inflammatory cytokines on top of its ability in inhibiting viral replication. Therefore, despite the need for randomized double blind control study, HCQ should be considered as an additional option to treat critically ill COVID-19 patients, which could save lives during the current COVID-19 pandemic. Although this retrospective study was performed on critically ill COVID-19 patients, HCQ could also be an option for patients at an early stage considering its safety records and the long history of its use in treating malaria infections. This study has some limitations. For example, it is a retrospective study and HCQ treatment group only has 48 cases, much less than the number in NHCQ group. Therefore, large-scale random clinical studies are necessary for the treatment of COVID-19 by HCQ.

The entire paper is based around HCQ being used on critically ill patients, not as early intervention or prophylaxis.  The paper states that attempting to use it as an antiviral can induce cardiotoxicity and death.  But in low doses it could help with inflammation once a patient is critically ill with COVID-19.  Basically, its just like taking the drug for malaria, lupus, RA, etc.  You are reducing inflammation, its not effective against the virus by itself.  

[cactusflinthead 27594]

 

[TXSG8R 3360]

2 minutes ago, cactusflinthead said:

 

MAGA right now.  

[jimmyjazz 45538]

9 minutes ago, Degenerate Gardner said:

Seems like an ideal time to replace the CDC Director with a lackey. Is the My Pillow guy available?

Replace the lackey with another lackey?  OK.

[BrickHorn 18186]

8 minutes ago, cactusflinthead said:

 

This pisses me off because it reminds me that YouTube is tearing up the Constitution by censoring Plandemic.

[wildcat09 29213]

10 minutes ago, cactusflinthead said:

 

Just imagine what an opposition party could do with a story like this.

[triplehorn 2664]

18 minutes ago, TXSG8R said:

From that paper.

The entire paper is based around HCQ being used on critically ill patients, not as early intervention or prophylaxis.  The paper states that attempting to use it as an antiviral can induce cardiotoxicity and death.  But in low doses it could help with inflammation once a patient is critically ill with COVID-19.  Basically, its just like taking the drug for malaria, lupus, RA, etc.  You are reducing inflammation, its not effective against the virus by itself.  

In other words, their findings are that it's effective against death, not the virus.  Technically, the term 'COVID' relates to the resulting disease, not the virus proper.  If we can reduce the extent to which the disease process is associated with a death outcome, by whatever path, that's winning.

Giving HCQ in higher doses, if needed, for early intervention or prophylaxis is probably a lot safer than higher doses once you have complicated advanced disease process unfolding.  At the complicated stage, cumulative and systemic metabolic imbalances can make electrophysiologic events like arrhythmia with HCQ or HCQ/AZ more unpredictable and dangerous.  Isolated one-time seizures out of the blue also happen under similar adverse electrophysiologic circumstances.  So you try to avoid things that nudge an imbalance further in the wrong direction.  HCQ in stable people with early Cov infection (without significant disease progression) probably have the same risk as the millions of people who have taken it for lupus. RA. and malaria for decades.

Ongoing NY/WA study: Study will test if hydroxychloroquine can prevent COVID-19 - results expected by summer

Another: University of Minnesota COVID-19 Pre-Exposure Prophylaxis Clinical Trial

 

 

 

[horn4life 3753]

Well I guess I could say we need testing... but... death is now the political preference of the controlling party, so death it is.

I'll give a quick compare and contrast, New Orleans is a hell of a lot safer than anyplace I have seen in Texas.  Sounds crazy, but it's true.  Went to visit my daughter and her husband in their new home in New Orleans last weekend.  Mostly take out and made two outdoor restaurant excursions.  Nearly everyone who walked inside a restaurant or up to an outdoor host was wearing a mask.  People wore their masks in line for pickup.  Restaurants took down your name and contact information in case of need for contract tracing.  Made me feel sort of good about how the economy might progress to be honest.  Outside New Orleans in rural Louisiana and Texas at each place we stopped we were in the vast minority as mask wearers.  Fox News and the President have won... they want people to not wear masks.

The good news is the counting of both testing and coronavirus in places like Georgia is as distorted as possible to undercount.  So even the data must be manipulated rather than counted accurately.  I wish the Republican party as a whole did not hate science.  Or hate science that does not fit their incorrect assumptions or donor pool to be more accurate.  But inaccurate lies and misinformation has been the cornerstone of GOP politics for a very, very long time.  The only difference is now the lies are about information that could mean life and death.

I hope like hell I am wrong.  But I think my prediction two weeks ago that the only path forward is a lot of good old boys gasping to death in the country towns of our nation as well as an even bigger portion of poor folks who live in cramped quarters.  Sure wish I wasn't smarter than the President and every fucking member of his cabinet... otherwise we would be opening with a policy other than Russian Roulette.

[Anastasis 23390]

1 hour ago, triplehorn said:

Like I said just above, I'm taking a general advocacy stance until it's demonstrated to be of no benefit in early intervention or prophylaxis.  

 

This is like exactly the opposite of how evidence-based medical science works.

 

Jesus man.  I would love to see some compelling HCQ data.  But you got your shit all backwards. 

[kevwun 15608]

At least he didn't settle on drinking bleach being the cure.

[Captainant 27403]

6 minutes ago, kevwun said:

At least he didn't settle on drinking bleach being the cure.

Maybe he'll settle into a general advocacy stance for Lysol infusions. I hear people are talking very seriously about it.

[Wanker Bob 379]

2 hours ago, wildcat09 said:

Obviously everyone who isn’t a Republican is an atheist. 

Which is weird because republicans act the most like they believe there is no god and horrific actions won't have consequences. 

[GRHorn 105]

I have no idea of the methodology here. I’d love to read the whole piece, but I don’t have access to it. Still worth sharing I thought. It’s being shared and digested by Wall St and the like. 
 

 

[Longhorn_Fan68 33831]

lol. yeah, I'm gonna believe a study funded by JP fucking Morgan

[4th&Five 41457]

^^^what he said.

also, how has it been an appropriate measurement lag?  it's been a week in most places.

[triplehorn 2664]

33 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

This is like exactly the opposite of how evidence-based medical science works.

Jesus man.  I would love to see some compelling HCQ data.  But you got your shit all backwards. 

The US was late to the dance to do something.  Asleep at the wheel.  Full stop.

If you put any stock in the work and reporting from medical scientists in other nations to date, it's not backwards.  I'm looking at the protocols and actions of multiple other nations and their associated evidence based findings resulting in them incorporating early and late application of HCQ into their national protocols. 

here's another:

 

Edited May 20, 2020 by triplehorn

[Captainant 27403]

3 minutes ago, GRHorn said:

I have no idea of the methodology here. I’d love to read the whole piece, but I don’t have access to it. Still worth sharing I thought. It’s being shared and digested by Wall St and the like. 
 

 

I'm looking for the report, but further down the tweet thread has more info:

 

But absent us plebes actually getting to see the report ourselves... I'll refrain from getting too excited about it confirming my biases

[4th&Five 41457]

 

[GRHorn 105]

7 minutes ago, Captainant said:

I'm looking for the report, but further down the tweet thread has more info:

 

But absent us plebes actually getting to see the report ourselves... I'll refrain from getting too excited about it confirming my biases

There’s more quoted sections of the report on a site that’s reviled here so I won’t link it. 

[Horn Under a Bad Sign 20342]

DeSantis lying again.

 

 

[washparkhorn 9934]

19 minutes ago, triplehorn said:

The US was late to the dance to do something.  Asleep at the wheel.  Full stop.

If you put any stock in the work and reporting from medical scientists in other nations to date, it's not backwards.  I'm looking at the protocols and actions of multiple other nations and their associated evidence based findings resulting in them incorporating early and late application of HCQ into their national protocols. 

here's another:

 

Just a reminder to you parents out there - NEVER give your kid quinine or any other malaria drug without intense supervision by a physician and pharmacist well schooled in travel medicine. Our family was stationed all over the world when I was young. The one bottle of pills kept under lock and key was the quinine-based malaria drugs because it was a kid-killer. Don't poison your kids just because Trump and some people want HCQ to work for Coronavirus.  

[Horn Under a Bad Sign 20342]

One benefit: Fewer Alabamans.

 

 

[triplehorn 2664]

9 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

Just a reminder to you parents out there - NEVER give your kid quinine or any other malaria drug without intense supervision by a physician and pharmacist well schooled in travel medicine. Our family was stationed all over the world when I was young. The one bottle of pills kept under lock and key was the quinine-based malaria drugs because it was a kid-killer. Don't poison your kids just because Trump and some people want HCQ to work for Coronavirus.  

Not sure why you quoted me, but your message is true regarding danger with ingestion by kids.  Definitely keep out of the hands of children.

[burntorangebongos 10681]

CDC should have been talking well before now but it is good that they are trying to overcome the muzzle.

[tx 3 putt 76296]

2 hours ago, Degenerate Gardner said:

Seems like an ideal time to replace the CDC Director with a lackey. Is the My Pillow guy available?

Do they drug test for that position ?

[Wanker Bob 379]

42 minutes ago, GRHorn said:

There’s more quoted sections of the report on a site that’s reviled here so I won’t link it. 

It's bad enough you bring idiotic takes and shitty pictures of shitty food. Stop bringing fake, propaganda"research" here. 

[GRHorn 105]

19 minutes ago, Wanker Bob said:

It's bad enough you bring idiotic takes and shitty pictures of shitty food. Stop bringing fake, propaganda"research" here. 

Whatever, Wanker. 
 

You can question the motives of a JP Morgan produce research report, but flatly tossing it aside because of that is premature imo. It’s being shared by an anchor on mainstream media. So it’s relevant. I figured it wasn’t likely to be posted here since it breaks with CR conventional wisdom. 
 

As far as my takes and my food contributions, at least they’re some variety. You’re just the 157th poster to have the same vanilla takes on this forum. 
 

In closing, I’ll share another food pic. I’ve been pickling a lot of stuff. Homegrown, homemade refrigerator pickles. #Enjoy

 

 

[Born to Run 6558]

Whatever, Wanker. 
 
You can question the motives of a JP Morgan produce research report, but flatly tossing it aside because of that is premature imo. It’s being shared by an anchor on mainstream media. So it’s relevant. I figured it wasn’t likely to be posted here since it breaks with CR conventional wisdom. 
 
As far as my takes and my food contributions, at least they’re some variety. You’re just the 157th poster to have the same vanilla takes on this forum. 
 
In closing, I’ll share another food pic. I’ve been pickling a lot of stuff. Homegrown, homemade refrigerator pickles. #Enjoy
 

 

Nice raised "marble" bar top.

Lmk when you're ready to remodel that shit.

[SizzleChest 8275]

1 hour ago, Captainant said:

I'm looking for the report, but further down the tweet thread has more info:

 

But absent us plebes actually getting to see the report ourselves... I'll refrain from getting too excited about it confirming my biases

Lockdowns end, but a lot of people still stay home and don't alter their life (particularly mobility) patterns very much until there is more confidence in treatments or a vaccine.  I wonder if this in this report. 

[washparkhorn 9934]

14 minutes ago, GRHorn said:

In closing, I’ll share another food pic. I’ve been pickling a lot of stuff. Homegrown, homemade refrigerator pickles. #Enjoy

 

 

Someone knows how to handle a pickle. Lucky man. 

[gmr548 16481]

Now atheists complaining the president is not religious enough. You guys cracks me up.

Are you illiterate?

[wildcat09 29213]

16 minutes ago, SizzleChest said:

Lockdowns end, but a lot of people still stay home and don't alter their life (particularly mobility) patterns very much until there is more confidence in treatments or a vaccine.  I wonder if this in this report. 

The "lockdowns could cause more deaths than covid" shit is pure insanity.

[Anastasis 23390]

2 hours ago, triplehorn said:

The US was late to the dance to do something.  Asleep at the wheel.  Full stop.

If you put any stock in the work and reporting from medical scientists in other nations to date, it's not backwards.  I'm looking at the protocols and actions of multiple other nations and their associated evidence based findings resulting in them incorporating early and late application of HCQ into their national protocols. 

here's another:

 

 

[lemonlime 5503]

18 minutes ago, SizzleChest said:

Lockdowns end, but a lot of people still stay home and don't alter their life (particularly mobility) patterns very much until there is more confidence in treatments or a vaccine.  I wonder if this in this report. 

Also wondering if the impact of opening too soon is in the report.  What the hell happens to the economy if there are mass deaths after reopening, and there's a second lockdown and/or people are even more reluctant to leave their houses?

[Brisketexan 104537]

4 hours ago, BNB said:

Now atheists complaining the president is not religious enough. You guys cracks me up.

I mean, other than me being married to a pastor and having served in a leadership capacity in multiple Christian organizations over the past 15-20 years, and being the product of a christian education from kindergarten through high school, sure, I'm an atheist.

OR -- alternatively -- I'm a Christian who sees what people are doing in the name of "Christianity" and realizing that they have nothing to do with each other.

[Degenerate Gardner 4081]

2 minutes ago, gmr548 said:

4 hours ago, BNB said:

Now atheists complaining the president is not religious enough. You guys cracks me up.

 

It's not that Trump's not religious enough. He's not religious at all. And frankly I don't care about his actual religious beliefs, except for the considerable network of nitwits who insist on his godliness. Such claims should be an affront to those with sacred religious beliefs.

[washparkhorn 9934]

Just now, Brisketexan said:

OR -- alternatively -- I'm a Christian who sees what people are doing in the name of "Christianity" and realizing that they have nothing to do with each other.

Amen. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

[WhatTheBuck 28703]

7 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I mean, other than me being married to a pastor and having served in a leadership capacity in multiple Christian organizations over the past 15-20 years, and being the product of a christian education from kindergarten through high school, sure, I'm an atheist.

OR -- alternatively -- I'm a Christian who sees what people are doing in the name of "Christianity" and realizing that they have nothing to do with each other.

Are you saying you're a TRUE Scotsman Christian?

[Guest Lobo]

^

what brisket said.  BNB---we don't want him to be anything he's not.  He's not a religious man, at all.  His disciples fell for it at first, then sorta placated and resigned to some version of "Nobody's a perfect Christian, maybe he's not exactly on our same page, but Jesus sent him to us all the same."  But the guy can't even accidentally pretend to be anything remotely close to Christian.  And that's fine.  But he also ignores science, reason, and faith.  All at the same time.  You really never see that in history, anywhere, with any leader.  Ever. 

Even the worst despots at least attempted to create some sort of rudimentary mythology around themselves grounded in some type of established religion.  And the others were rooted in some agnostic semblance of an economic doctrine, or nationalistic destiny plan, or science/reason/data above everything (like the movie "Equilibrium" if you have two hours this lockdown).  But that's what baffles some of us, is Trump has none of these.  Yeah, people joke all he believes in is himself.  but there's been far worse despotic leaders in history, but those guys at least leaned into something like a religion, a scientific doctrine, a philosophical ethos of some kind.  I know he had policy visions (border wall, tax cuts, SCOTUS, etc.).  But he's never had a broader philosophy, a belief set, ontological or otherwise.  It's just him babbling off the cuff for 4 years and suddenly he's got a following of 60mm Americans.  That's basically never happened.  People have aggregated much more power than he, but they needed something else to do it.  Some modicum/display of religion, adherence to logic, grand vision of empirical thought, some call to faith or science or great military campaign.  This guy got a third of the adults in a really great country to vote for him and now follow him to their graves based on nothing but just riffing into microphones for a living.  That's never happened.  Ever.  IN human history.  The despots always keep one pillar of something else up to stand up on and enhance themselves.   And some of us are understandably concerned.  He's literally the nihilists from "Big Lebowski" but commanding our nuclear arsenal.    

 

[WhatTheBuck 28703]

6 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

Amen. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

'Prove your loyalty to me. KILL YOUR SON! Ha ha, just kidding. I'm not paying for your kid's therapy.'

[Biff Tannen 45491]

4 minutes ago, Lobo said:

^

what brisket said.  BNB---we don't want him to be anything he's not.  He's not a religious man, at all.  His disciples fell for it at first, then sorta placated and resigned to some version of "Nobody's a perfect Christian, maybe he's not exactly on our same page, but Jesus sent him to us all the same."  But the guy can't even accidentally pretend to be anything remotely close to Christian.  And that's fine.  But he also ignores science, reason, and faith.  All at the same time.  You really never see that in history, anywhere, with any leader.  Ever. 

Even the worst despots at least attempted to create some sort of rudimentary mythology around themselves grounded in some type of established religion.  And the others were rooted in some agnostic semblance of an economic doctrine, or nationalistic destiny plan, or science/reason/data above everything (like the movie "Equilibrium" if you have two hours this lockdown).  But that's what baffles some of us, is Trump has none of these.  Yeah, people joke all he believes in is himself.  but there's been far worse despotic leaders in history, but those guys at least leaned into something like a religion, a scientific doctrine, a philosophical ethos of some kind.  I know he had policy visions (border wall, tax cuts, SCOTUS, etc.).  But he's never had a broader philosophy, a belief set, ontological or otherwise.  It's just him babbling off the cuff for 4 years and suddenly he's got a following of 60mm Americans.  That's basically never happened.  People have aggregated much more power than he, but they needed something else to do it.  Some modicum/display of religion, adherence to logic, grand vision of empirical thought, some call to faith or science or great military campaign.  This guy got a third of the adults in a really great country to vote for him and now follow him to their graves based on nothing but just riffing into microphones for a living.  That's never happened.  Ever.  IN human history.  The despots always keep one pillar of something else up to stand up on and enhance themselves.   And some of us are understandably concerned.  He's literally the nihilists from "Big Lebowski" but commanding our nuclear arsenal.    

 

I mean, say what you will about the tenets of National Socialism.  At least it's an ethos.