CR: COVID-19 --Political Talk

[Anastasis 23699]

8 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

And, the flu isn't a good differentiator anyway. If we had vaccines that worked as well against the flu and with as little side effects as the ones we have for Covid-19, I'm confident we'd be requiring those for children as well. 

Maybe in a few years after substantial long-term safety had been established. 

[Neonmoon 38130]

I've seen the pearl clutching from many parents on school closures, but are there any studies on the negative effects? The resident it's a flu contingent push this narrative. I'm sure there are consequences, but do we really know anything at this point? If home schooling is so bad, why is it allowed? I guess there might be a difference between home schooling and virtual schooling. I don't know. 

[Dahobbs 18183]

Just now, Immaculate Vibes said:

There’s all kinds of studies, given you thought that your previous citation was a gotcha I’m going to question your understanding of all the totality of the evidence. Btw CDC recommends booster at 5 months now so you’re behind there on vaccine duration. 
 

What a lot of posters here are missing is the political calculus with vaccines and mandates is different now. When the vaccine rollout started a lot of people were really behind it because it was to “stop the spread” and it’s “our way out of the pandemic”. Those absolute statements have turned out to be false. Thus you can expect some of the moderates on this issue are going to waiver especially after they’ve contracted Covid and seen all their vaxxed friends get it as well. 
 

The next big fight will be transitioning the definition of fully vaccinated to include boosting. A lot of people that just had Covid aren’t going to like that. We’ll see what happens.

Those statements are still true. Vaccination will not wipe out Covid. But if our entire population were vaccinated, then Covid wouldn't be a big deal, wouldn't have caused nearly a million deaths in the US, and wouldn't be contributing to 8,000 new daily hospital admissions. 

[Dahobbs 18183]

2 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Maybe in a few years after substantial long-term safety had been established. 

Agreed on that, at least as to school mandates. We've talked about this before actually. 

[wildcat09 29556]

4 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

I've seen the pearl clutching from many parents on school closures, but are there any studies on the negative effects? The resident it's a flu contingent push this narrative. I'm sure there are consequences, but do we really know anything at this point? If home schooling is so bad, why is it allowed? I guess there might be a difference between home schooling and virtual schooling. I don't know. 

There's a big push underway among conservatives to get more parents to homeschool their kids and right now one of their main arguments is that the public school systems can't be entrusted with peoples' children because they're destroying children's lives with virtual learning.

[Neonmoon 38130]

2 hours ago, tantric superman said:

I simply think that is not true, and this is why we have such political divisions. The "free testing" costs someone money.  I've had four.  President Biden wants 500 million.  So ultimately, let's just agree that my little grandson is going to be paying for this in terms of reduced educational opportunity or reduced social security benefits, just like he'll be paying for all of the various expenses that we don't properly fund with current taxes. 

You know what I meant about being free. But to your point, I'm all for raising taxes. I assume you are as well. Unless your against raising taxes, but also don't want to pay for vaccines or tests for the public? 

[Anastasis 23699]

20 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

However, at some point there should be a scientific determination that the risk to school children remains so great that we require the vaccine.  So somewhere between polio and flu?

Public policy on requiring vaccinations doesn't need to be solely based on the benefits to the individual, but can and should be based on the benefits to society as a whole.

In the final analysis when the healthcare provider is about to put the shot in the arm which do you weight greater, the individualized assessment or the societal assessment? As far as kids <15 are concerned, there is low risk from COVID/low benefit from vax, low risk in terms of short terms adverse events, unknown risk from long-term adverse events.  Weighing those factors on individual level is not easy and is going to vary substantially for each kid based on a variety of factors (individual medical issues, household profile, etc).  I find it really hard to judge parents who come to different conclusions regarding vaccination of their young children at this point (disclosure, 1 of my kids is fully vaccinated, the other 2 partially and will get 2nd shot this week on a delayed schedule).  

Edited January 5, 2022 by Anastasis

[Dahobbs 18183]

5 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

In the final analysis when the healthcare provider is about to put the shot in the arm which do you weight greater, the individualized assessment or the societal assessment? As far as kids <15 are concerned, there is low risk from COVID/low benefit from vax, low risk in terms of short terms adverse events, unknown risk from long-term adverse events.  Weighing those factors on individual level is not easy and is going to vary substantially for each kid based on a variety of factors (individual medical issues, household profile, etc).  I find it really hard to judge parents who come to different conclusions regarding vaccination of their young children at this point (disclosure, 1 of my kids is fully vaccinated, the other 2 partially and will get 2nd shot this week on a delayed schedule).  

I understand that. The benefits have to be greater than the risks. Right now, the evidence suggests that the benefits will be greater than the risks for kids 5 and above. Given the number of inoculations that have been given out world wide, I don't expect that to change. But I agree it makes sense to wait for more long term data before requiring kids get vaccinated. I don't judge parents for waiting for their kids right now either (disclosure, my 5 year-old is fully vaccinated, the 14 month twins are indirectly vaccinated via momma I guess and hope). 

[MC Fresh Breath 4075]

https://www.wgbh.org/news/local-news/2022/01/04/no-icu-beds-left-massachusetts-hospitals-are-maxed-out-as-covid-continues-to-surge

Quote

 

'No ICU beds left': Massachusetts hospitals are maxed out as COVID continues to surge

Dr. Melisa Lai-Becker, the medical director for the emergency department at Cambridge Health Alliance's Everett Hospital, spent much of Monday afternoon urgently calling hospitals all over the state.

"I was searching for an ICU [intensive care unit] bed for one of our patients, and every single facility is full," she said. "They are at full capacity. They have no ICU beds left."

She even started looking up hospitals she could call in neighboring states, but they're in the same predicament.

Before the holidays, public health experts warned that the combination of gatherings and the highly contagious omicron variant of the coronavirus could fuel a dramatic surge of cases and put further strain on hospitals already burdened with staffing shortages and increased patient needs due to delayed care. Those fears appear to have been realized. The state reported more than 31,000 new COVID-19 cases on Monday, which includes tests taken over the long holiday weekend. On Tuesday, the state added nearly 17,000 more confirmed cases to that tally. Last winter, the seven-day average of new confirmed cases peaked at about 6,000.

Experts say although the now-dominant omicron variant appears to result in less severe illness than earlier variants, the sheer number of new cases is overwhelming the capacity of the state's hospitals.

"It's really a math issue," Lai-Becker said. "It's the sheer volume, that so many more people have been infected with COVID."

Even if only a small percentage of people who have COVID-19 require hospitalization for their symptoms, overall case numbers are so high that even that small percentage is enough to pack emergency rooms, she explained.

"The big concern right now is if we're at a much, much higher number of cases — even if the severity is lower — the total hospitalizations may turn out to be the same as we saw last winter, or even higher," said Andrew Lover, an assistant professor of epidemiology at UMass Amherst.

"Last year, there was a large spike all the way through mid-January. And I certainly expect to see the same this year," he said. "And we're already starting in a much higher level of reported infections so we could see an extremely high plateau."

Just how bad it's going to get isn't clear yet, said Dr. Paul Biddinger, chief preparedness and continuity officer for Mass General Brigham and a member of Gov. Charlie Baker’s medical advisory committee for COVID-19.

"We're very well aware of what happened in South Africa, where the numbers shot up astronomically, but then fell pretty quickly," Biddinger said. "That's obviously what we're hoping here, is that the numbers start falling quickly. But I don't think yet we have a sense for when the peak is going to come."

More than 2,300 people in the state were hospitalized with COVID-19 as of Monday. That's still significantly fewer than the nearly 4,000 people who were hospitalized at one point during the first COVID-19 surge in spring 2020. But back then, Biddinger said, hospitals in the state dramatically scaled back operations to focus on the pandemic, canceling everything but the most essential admissions and procedures.

"What we have seen ... is actually the consequences of a lot of that canceled care where people come back sicker because they missed a procedure, missed an intervention," he said. "And really, ever since the first wave, those chickens have been coming home to roost in terms of overall patient demand."

That left hospitals packed before the current wave of COVID-19 patients. And on top of that, Biddinger said, many exhausted staff left the healthcare field during the last two years. And now, hospitals are seeing significant numbers of staff members unable to come to work because of their own coronavirus infections or exposures.

At UMass Memorial Medical Center in Worcester, hospital epidemiologist Dr. Richard Ellison said he's hoping staffing issues don't get bad enough to require reductions in crucial care.

"Nurses who give chemotherapy for cancer patients get special training, and we can't train our entire hospital workforce nursing staff to give cancer chemotherapy," he said.

If too many of those nurses are out, Ellison said, the hospital may not be able to provide that care.

"So we have great concern that we could actually impact our ability to provide care for some patient populations," he said.

The demand for emergency room beds is so high at UMass Memorial Medical Center, Ellison said, that some patients are being cared for in hallways, with privacy barriers put up between beds.

"There is no bed capacity right now in the UMass system," he said. "As soon as someone gets discharged, the bed is being filled immediately."

Back at Everett Hospital, Dr. Lai-Becker said reports of beseiged medical facilities in other states now feel familiar.

"Everything we heard about earlier during different surges, about other areas of the country, that has come to Massachusetts," she said. "That's where we are. That's how bad this particular surge is."

 

 

[Born to Run 6598]

There's a big push underway among conservatives to get more parents to homeschool their kids and right now one of their main arguments is that the public school systems can't be entrusted with peoples' children because they're destroying children's lives with virtual learning.

It's a great way to raise more adults who are fearful of others they have no exposure to- browns, blacks, gays, Muslims etc.

[Snake Diggity 4698]

56 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

 I guess there might be a difference between home schooling and virtual schooling. 

Ya think?

[tantric superman 4668]

1 hour ago, Dahobbs said:

This is what I do. And I literally explained my reasoning in the post. Feel free to respond to the substance. 

I posted that it was unlikely that such a law was passed, and yet you asked me what that law would do and on what basis it would be passed.  I did so, and then you said it had no utility, but admitted it might "clear things up a bit".  And then you argue that there is no way it would be passed, which is what I posited in the first place.

It wasn't a particularly interesting exercise. 

I'm an employment lawyer, and some clear federal direction that was quickly okayed by the courts would have made things much easier for companies like mine going forward, because we could have relied on such mandates as sound defenses in the face of the large number of employees who would have opposed the moves.

I'll just accept your argument that all the angst of companies trying to deal with pandemic issues in the past couple of years was wasted time, that we could have been as absolutely over the top in our mandates in all 50 states with virtually no repercussions,  we can move on. 

 

[Don Johnson 4802]

19 hours ago, Don Johnson said:

Signed - vaccinated guy who has not knowingly contracted Covid and does not have acquired immunity.

About that….

[jimmyjazz 46969]

1 minute ago, Don Johnson said:

About that….

Oh shit.

[tantric superman 4668]

30 minutes ago, Born to Run said:

It's a great way to raise more adults who are fearful of others they have no exposure to- browns, blacks, gays, Muslims etc.

I just had a great conversations with two little white kids down the street who are home schooled, and taking a break.  They aren't scared of me, despite my meskiness. The are awesome kids.  

I'm for propping up the public schools and not for demonizing home schooling. 

Virtual learning is par for the course for home schoolers.  Virtual learning is "doable" for parochial and private schools.  Public schools have issues with virtual learning, and the more virtual learning they do, the worse they look.

That's a cost that has to be factored in.

 

[4th&Five 41903]

Covid just saved me from a week long in-law visit. Always good to look on the bright side!

[Dahobbs 18183]

26 minutes ago, tantric superman said:

I posted that it was unlikely that such a law was passed, and yet you asked me what that law would do and on what basis it would be passed.  I did so, and then you said it had no utility, but admitted it might "clear things up a bit".  And then you argue that there is no way it would be passed, which is what I posited in the first place.

It wasn't a particularly interesting exercise. 

You said Biden should have foreseen that your approach was the best way even though we both agreed it never would have worked. I don't understand your argument at all. If it never would have worked, then why bring it up as the best approach? Why chide Biden for not implementing a strategy that was doomed to failure?  

Quote

I'm an employment lawyer, and some clear federal direction that was quickly okayed by the courts would have made things much easier for companies like mine going forward, because we could have relied on such mandates as sound defenses in the face of the large number of employees who would have opposed the moves.

It seems like you already have a sound defense under existing federal law, whether under the ADA or the Title VII, that a vaccine mandate is legal. Other entities have implemented such requirements and gotten similar lawsuits dismissed based on existing law. Is it a perfect defense? No. Does it prevent bullshit lawsuits? No. But neither would your proposed law if passed. There would still be bullshit lawsuits. And you'd be still dealing with lawsuits based on individual state laws and restrictions that would not be preempted by your proposed clarification of federal law. 

Quote

I'll just accept your argument that all the angst of companies trying to deal with pandemic issues in the past couple of years was wasted time, that we could have been as absolutely over the top in our mandates in all 50 states with virtually no repercussions,  we can move on. 

I never said it was wasted time. I don't doubt there are huge problems in dealing with 50 different state laws. But your proposed solution was no solution. So, I agree, it isn't a particularly interesting exercise. 

Edited January 5, 2022 by Dahobbs

[Don Johnson 4802]

6 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Oh shit.

Haha. Slightly sore throat last night and this AM.  Honestly probably wouldn’t have even tested because so mild but have a road trip planned tomorrow with an at risk coworker and needed a clear conscience.  Also, the last three weeks have been pretty crazy. Dinged positive on two different at home tests.  About to go exercise (at home).
 

Let’s shift the discussion to whether I need a booster that reportedly lasts 10 weeks or if gained immunity to go along with my two Moderna shots (9 months ago) is enough. 

[HenryJames 67115]

21 minutes ago, Don Johnson said:

About that….

[Leeroy Jenkins 2475]

26 minutes ago, tantric superman said:

I just had a great conversations with two little white kids down the street who are home schooled, and taking a break.  They aren't scared of me, despite my meskiness. The are awesome kids.  

I'm for propping up the public schools and not for demonizing home schooling. 

Virtual learning is par for the course for home schoolers.  Virtual learning is "doable" for parochial and private schools.  Public schools have issues with virtual learning, and the more virtual learning they do, the worse they look.

That's a cost that has to be factored in.

 

The worst they look is absolute bullshit.  The real deal is that some kids (mature, focused, they give a fuck) can learn and do well with virtual learning.  The majority can't.  Without a teacher there monitoring them they just fuck off.  They don't do the assignments and they are not learning.  Ask a teacher that did virtual instruction.   

[Neonmoon 38130]

19 minutes ago, Leeroy Jenkins said:

The real deal is that some kids (mature, focused, they give a fuck) can learn and do well with virtual learning.  The majority can't.  Without a teacher someone monitoring them they just fuck off.  

Fixed it. Kidding. Sort of

[Born to Run 6598]

I just had a great conversations with two little white kids down the street who are home schooled, and taking a break.  They aren't scared of me, despite my meskiness. The are awesome kids.  
I'm for propping up the public schools and not for demonizing home schooling. 
Virtual learning is par for the course for home schoolers.  Virtual learning is "doable" for parochial and private schools.  Public schools have issues with virtual learning, and the more virtual learning they do, the worse they look.
That's a cost that has to be factored in.
 

Sure, people homeschool for all kinds of reasons, many of them quite noble.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

Can't believe that two years into this we now have a shortage of tests.  Major failure by the Biden administration.

[StassneyHorn 6755]

I got a box of 20 at home tests from the city’s testing site in SE Austin last Tuesday. This was after I took my second PCR test there. Have 6 left if any of you want to pay my mortgage in exchange.

Edited January 6, 2022 by StassneyHorn

[StassneyHorn 6755]

9 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

Can't believe that two years into this we now have a shortage of tests.  Major failure by the Biden administration.

Abbott’s  fault, clearly. Then the private sector.

[Born to Run 6598]

Can't believe that two years into this we now have a shortage of tests.  Major failure by the Biden administration.

Yes I can. Back in June I was hugging strangers mask free in Omaha and not giving a fuck. Test manufacturers were tossing truckloads of test away, and shutting down operations completely.

We all declared mission accomplished too soon.

Biden too, major fuck up. See I can criticized the old bastard moderate that needs to retire.

Of course if not for Delta and Omnicrom we might have warehouses full of Covid Tests and then you'd be bitching about government waste.

And I'm sure TFG would have a cohesive policy in place with no grift.

[GreenspointTexas 9933]

New record high number of cases today

[Johnny Sack 8397]

Also extreme testing shortage.  Two years into this.

[DaysOff 8157]

This administration went all in on vaccines. They never dreamed that 40 percent of the population would be moronic pieces of shit. They weren't paying attention the last 5 years and that is on them.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

37 minutes ago, DaysOff said:

This administration went all in on vaccines. They never dreamed that 40 percent of the population would be moronic pieces of shit. They weren't paying attention the last 5 years and that is on them.

Yes, because only the unvaxxed need testing.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

1 hour ago, StassneyHorn said:

Abbott’s  fault, clearly. Then the private sector.

[Incredulity 11860]

1 hour ago, Born to Run said:

Yes I can. Back in June I was hugging strangers mask free in Omaha and not giving a fuck. Test manufacturers were tossing truckloads of test away, and shutting down operations completely.

We all declared mission accomplished too soon.

Biden too, major fuck up. See I can criticized the old bastard moderate that needs to retire.

Of course if not for Delta and Omnicrom we might have warehouses full of Covid Tests and then you'd be bitching about government waste.

And I'm sure TFG would have a cohesive policy in place with no grift.

Bbbb bbbb bnbb nbbbbutttt……Ttttrrrrruuuummmppp!!!!!

[workswithseed 2201]

13 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

Yes, because only the unvaxxed need testing.

 

[4th&Five 41903]

We’d definitely be in much better shape if Biden lost. 

[Incredulity 11860]

11 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

 

Huh….who would think there would be any blow back with 24 months of freaking out?

[Sawbonz 28081]

1 hour ago, Johnny Sack said:

Also extreme testing shortage.  Two years into this.

You don’t give a fuck about test availability 

[Johnny Sack 8397]

2 hours ago, Born to Run said:

Yes I can. Back in June I was hugging strangers mask free in Omaha and not giving a fuck. Test manufacturers were tossing truckloads of test away, and shutting down operations completely.

We all declared mission accomplished too soon.

Biden too, major fuck up. See I can criticized the old bastard moderate that needs to retire.

Of course if not for Delta and Omnicrom we might have warehouses full of Covid Tests and then you'd be bitching about government waste.

And I'm sure TFG would have a cohesive policy in place with no grift.

You know The Big Guy is getting his ten points, regardless.

[Don Johnson 4802]

19 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

 

 

[Johnny Sack 8397]

2 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

You don’t give a fuck about test availability 

I was told by all sorts of lefties that not having enough tests in March 2020 was a leadership failure. 

Is lack of tests in January 2022 a leadership failure?

Which one is worse?

[Johnny Sack 8397]

2 minutes ago, Don Johnson said:

 

It's sad that such groups refuse to believe the science. 

[Incredulity 11860]

1 minute ago, Johnny Sack said:

I was told by all sorts of lefties that not having enough tests in March 2020 was a leadership failure. 

Is lack of tests in January 2022 a leadership failure?

Which one is worse?

 

Surly Leftists 

[Sawbonz 28081]

4 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

I was told by all sorts of lefties that not having enough tests in March 2020 was a leadership failure. 

Is lack of tests in January 2022 a leadership failure?

Which one is worse?

You don’t give a fuck about test availability so how can you consider lack of test availability a failure?

[Johnny Sack 8397]

7 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

You don’t give a fuck about test availability so how can you consider lack of test availability a failure?

I am asking the people on here who claimed lack of tests in the Spring of 2020 was a presidential failure whether the current lack of tests are?

I do care about availability of tests.  But that's not relevant to the political question I am asking on the political Covid thread.

[Sawbonz 28081]

3 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

I am asking the people on here who claimed lack of tests in the Spring of 2020 was a presidential failure whether the current lack of tests are?

I do care about availability of tests.  But that's not relevant to the political question I am asking on the political Covid thread.

I don’t believe you give a fuck about test availability. Why would you?

 

I don’t give a fuck about test availability in January of 2022. I did in March of 2020. You want to take a guess as to why?

[JimmyJames 12271]

3 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

I am asking the people on here who claimed lack of tests in the Spring of 2020 was a presidential failure whether the current lack of tests are?

I do care about availability of tests.  But that's not relevant to the political question I am asking on the political Covid thread.

You didn’t give a fuck about test availability in the spring of 2020 and you don’t give a fuck about it now. You’re just bitching about it now like a whiny little bitch because the president isn’t trump. Per usual. 

[Incredulity 11860]

2 minutes ago, JimmyJames said:

You didn’t give a fuck about test availability in the spring of 2020 and you don’t give a fuck about it now. You’re just bitching about it now like a whiny little bitch because the president isn’t trump. Per usual. 

Visual translation of this post

[JimmyJames 12271]

2 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

Visual translation of this post

Nobody here is impressed by your trolling. 

[Incredulity 11860]

Just now, JimmyJames said:

Nobody here is impressed by your trolling. 

[JimmyJames 12271]

6 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

You actually searched the net for that gif? 

[workswithseed 2201]

Just now, JimmyJames said:

You actually searched the net for that gif?