CR: COVID-19 --Political Talk

[BrickHorn 18426]

15 minutes ago, ouflak said:

I think a more apt one would be, "Lung cancer can be treated with chemotherapy, in recent years with increasing success. So everybody should get chemotherapy just to be sure."

No. Vaccines are preventative, they are not treatments.

Edited January 20, 2022 by BrickHorn

[Longhorn_Fan68 34079]

2 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

No. Vaccines are preventative, they are not treatments.

[JimmyJames 12271]

“I’m vaxxed but here’s some anti vax talking points” has officially replaced “I didn’t vote for trump but here’s some pro trump talking points” for our resident trolls. 

[JimmyJames 12271]

2 minutes ago, Bravo said:

How dumb and disingenuous are you? You left this part out. Wonder why? BTW that does not mean that was the patient where the mutation started. I am not even saying this was patient 0 but you stating things as facts and then also intentionally leaving out critical facts makes you look foolish at best. You don't know and either does anyone.

The variant was first detected in southeastern France in a vaccinated person who had recently travelled to Cameroon, according to a research paper that was published in December. 

Therefore it originated in Cameroon. 

[BrickHorn 18426]

1 minute ago, Bravo said:

How dumb and disingenuous are you?

…he asks, while typing out his dumb, disingenuous point.

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19279]

1 minute ago, Bravo said:

How dumb and disingenuous are you? You left this part out. Wonder why? BTW that does not mean that was the patient where the mutation started. I am not even saying this was patient 0 but you stating things as facts and then also intentionally leaving out critical facts makes you look foolish at best. You don't know and either does anyone.

The variant was first detected in southeastern France in a vaccinated person who had recently travelled to Cameroon, according to a research paper that was published in December. 

I know this is going to shock you, but that person who was vaccinated and traveled to Cameroon got it from the unvaxxed population in Cameroon, which is where this shit originated....  And it is similar to Omicron, which shows amazing ability to get around the current vaccines.  

Do us all a favor and stop posting.

[JimmyJames 12271]

6 minutes ago, Bravo said:

I think most should get the vax like me if medically appropriate. ACC Jimmy is confused as nuance escapes him. 

I think most should get the vax like me if medically appropriate and those who refuse should be catapulted out of town like they did to that banner guy in the prohibition episode of the simpsons. 

[JimmyJames 12271]

10 minutes ago, Bravo said:

You don't know that. That is just the 1st patient where the IHU was detected. You have no damn clue where it started. You clearly don't understand how this works. You think immediately the 1st time the mutation happens it is detected? Stating it as fact makes you look stupid.

I see your “4 doors more whores” sock is running around liking all your stupid ass posts. Should I run and tell the mods like a little bitch like you did with Penelope? 

Heres a hint. Don’t create a sock with the exact same handle as what’s stated in your avatar. 

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19279]

Ah, my Surly experience just got 1,000 times better.

 

[HenryJames 67116]

54 minutes ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

You know, Cameroon where only 2.5% of the population is fully vaccinated and about 3.7% of its population is living with HIV.

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19279]

Just now, HenryJames said:

[Guest Lobo]

59 minutes ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

It was discovered in France with the index case being linked to travel to Cameroon.  You know, Cameroon where only 2.5% of the population is fully vaccinated and about 3.7% of its population is living with HIV.  I wonder how that new variant, that is over 60% similar to Omicron could have come about?  Christ, you are dumb.

You're not taking into account the massive free vaccination clinic currently taking place at the Heile Selassie Cultural Pavilion.  (Yes, I am aware Ethiopia is a separate country)

[DDD Dad 14571]

33 minutes ago, JimmyJames said:

“I’m vaxxed but here’s some anti vax talking points” has officially replaced “I didn’t vote for trump but here’s some pro trump talking points” for our resident trolls. 

I’m not racist ‘cause I have a black friend. 
 
Also I’m not anti-Semitic. My lawyer is a Jew!

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19279]

1 minute ago, Lobo said:

You're not taking into account the massive free vaccination clinic currently taking place at the Heile Selassie Cultural Pavilion.  (Yes, I am aware Ethiopia is a separate country)

[SaucyJack 3517]

3 minutes ago, Lobo said:

You're not taking into account the massive free vaccination clinic currently taking place at the Heile Selassie Cultural Pavilion.  (Yes, I am aware Ethiopia is a separate country)

"We're jabbin'!"

[JimmyJames 12271]

6 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

I’m not racist ‘cause I have a black friend. 
 
Also I’m not anti-Semitic. My lawyer is a Jew!

“I once held the door open for an elderly black woman and told her hello.” - some poster on texags who supports voting restrictions for people located primarily in cities. 

[Longhorn_Fan68 34079]

13 minutes ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

anti-vaxer: is that pee? is he going to finish that?

[JimmyJames 12271]

8 minutes ago, Bravo said:

ACC Jimmy knows better than the scientists! It's fact. Case solved.

https://www.news24.com/news24/africa/news/covid-19-france-detects-new-variant-called-ihu-in-man-who-travelled-to-cameroon-20220106

Scientists in France say a new B.1.640.2 variant of the coronavirus, named IHU, has been detected in a vaccinated man who travelled to Cameroon - the host of this year's Africa Cup of Nations (Afcon).

But they say it does not mean IHU originated in Cameroon.

When are you gonna post another pic of someone flipping off a UT diploma to “prove” you went to UT? Are you waiting for your next vacation in Hawaii spent all day posting troll posts on surly from the beach? 

[Skipper 6406]

Here is the issue with this board.  There are way too many opinions, inferences and plausible assertions that are stated as absolute facts without scientific basis and these assertions are made with confidence, vitriol and disdain (or neg reps) for anyone that questions them or doesn't fall in line. 

I'm not a scientist or dr but I'm about as well versed on Covid as I can be simply because it's fascinating to be living through.  I've read a ton and listen lots of podcasts (and have a dedicated twitter feed since beginning of pandemic where I follow all spectrums on the medical side including the most doomsday fear mongering (i.e., eric feigle ding) to try to see all viewpoints).  But I also know when I'm out of my element.  And more importantly, there is debate among many of these topics that are actually experts in the field.  And with data constantly changing expert opinions are constantly changing as well.  Hardly any of the topics discussed is settled or fact and my personal opinions are constantly in flux.

But vaccinated posters questioning the utility of vaccine mandates essentially being labeled "anti-vax" is the new Biden voters that aren't far left Bernie/AOC ideologues being labeled "Republicans" on this board (which I recall numerous times after not falling in line with liberal agenda when venturing over here during elections season).

I'll never understand how Covid became so political but it clearly has on both sides.   And it's pretty clear the groupthink, tribalism and inability to consider opposing viewpoints is just as bad for many on the left as it is for the MAGA's on the right whether some of you recognize that or not.   

[DDD Dad 14571]

1 minute ago, Skipper said:

I'll never understand how Covid became so political 

Really?  Have you not been paying attention since March of 2020?

You see, there's this guy.  Let's call him the President of the United States.  He wanted to minimize the pandemic because he thought it would make him look bad if he treated it seriously.  He told all of his supports that it would go away on its own by Easter, and that all those who were sounding the alarm were really just his opponents, trying to make him look bad.

His supporters ran with it, to the point that they viewed anything that challenged their leader's viewpoint was "fake news."  That's a little teaser for you.

[JimmyJames 12271]

5 minutes ago, Skipper said:

Here is the issue with this board.  There are way too many opinions, inferences and plausible assertions that are stated as absolute facts without scientific basis and these assertions are made with confidence, vitriol and disdain (or neg reps) for anyone that questions them or doesn't fall in line. 

I'm not a scientist or dr but I'm about as well versed on Covid as I can be simply because it's fascinating to be living through.  I've read a ton and listen lots of podcasts (and have a dedicated twitter feed since beginning of pandemic where I follow all spectrums on the medical side including the most doomsday fear mongering (i.e., eric feigle ding) to try to see all viewpoints).  But I also know when I'm out of my element.  And more importantly, there is debate among many of these topics that are actually experts in the field.  And with data constantly changing expert opinions are constantly changing as well.  Hardly any of the topics discussed is settled or fact and my personal opinions are constantly in flux.

But vaccinated posters questioning the utility of vaccine mandates essentially being labeled "anti-vax" is the new Biden voters that aren't far left Bernie/AOC ideologues being labeled "Republicans" on this board (which I recall numerous times after not falling in line with liberal agenda when venturing over here during elections season).

I'll never understand how Covid became so political but it clearly has on both sides.   And it's pretty clear the groupthink, tribalism and inability to consider opposing viewpoints is just as bad for many on the left as it is for the MAGA's on the right whether some of you recognize that or not.   

I guess you decided to stay after all? Maybe you should read up on how we eliminated smallpox and polio and report back to us. 
 

Also feel free to post for us some credible reports that the Covid vaccines don’t work. 
 

The reality is that if the world listened to guys like you with stupid questions in the past we’d still be dealing with diseases like smallpox and polio. Hell maybe thanks to guys like you we will get to deal with them again along with a whole bunch of other diseases. 
 

Covid became politicized due to republicans claiming it was a personal freedom anti trump issue for political points instead of a disease running throughout society. It’s as simple as that. Fuck your both sides bullshit. 

[Skipper 6406]

1 minute ago, JimmyJames said:

Also feel free to post for us some credible reports that the Covid vaccines don’t work. 
 

The reality is that if the world listened to guys like you with stupid questions in the past we’d still be dealing with diseases like smallpox and polio. Hell maybe thanks to guys like you we will get to deal with them again along with a whole bunch of other diseases. 
 

JFC.  This is your takeaway from my posts?   It's a fucking lost cause.   You are right, I'm 41 year old no real risk factor boosted individual that doesn't believe vaccinations work and anti-vax, pro polio.

[DDD Dad 14571]

17 minutes ago, Bravo said:

that's what you took from his post?

I simply answered his question.  

Frankly I didn't read the rest of the post too carefully.  But, to be fair to Skipper, I've gone back and considered his post in toto.

 

23 minutes ago, Skipper said:

Here is the issue with this board.  There are way too many opinions, inferences and plausible assertions that are stated as absolute facts without scientific basis and these assertions are made with confidence, vitriol and disdain (or neg reps) for anyone that questions them or doesn't fall in line. 

This is a fair point.  It's typical of our online social network/message board world, sadly.  

 

Quote

I'm not a scientist or dr but I'm about as well versed on Covid as I can be simply because it's fascinating to be living through.  I've read a ton and listen lots of podcasts (and have a dedicated twitter feed since beginning of pandemic where I follow all spectrums on the medical side including the most doomsday fear mongering (i.e., eric feigle ding) to try to see all viewpoints).  But I also know when I'm out of my element.  And more importantly, there is debate among many of these topics that are actually experts in the field.  And with data constantly changing expert opinions are constantly changing as well.  Hardly any of the topics discussed is settled or fact and my personal opinions are constantly in flux.

I'm curious as to which experts in the field have come out against vaccine mandates?  I mean, I get it if your point is that their utility decreases as time goes on, but in terms of actual data, mandates have proven to be very effective (e.g., United Airlines deaths before and after mandate was issued).  Are there a significant number of experts (not cranks or politicians) arguing against mandates?  I've not seen much evidence of that.  

A quick Google search brought up this article.  I found the arguments against mandates to be weak.  Of course, my perspective is biased because I am in favor of mandates.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-59506339

 

Quote

But vaccinated posters questioning the utility of vaccine mandates essentially being labeled "anti-vax" is the new Biden voters that aren't far left Bernie/AOC ideologues being labeled "Republicans" on this board (which I recall numerous times after not falling in line with liberal agenda when venturing over here during elections season).

Perhaps you are one of the few sincere posters who doubts the benefits of mandates despite the evidence to the contrary, and who finds the arguments against imposing the mandates to be more persuasive.  You're certainly entitled to your opinion.  But most of the posts on this board that advocate against mandates typically imply that the vaccines themselves are bad or unnecessary, which is what will get you labeled as an anti-vaxxer if you're posting along with those others (even if that wasn't your intent).  

Quote

I'll never understand how Covid became so political but it clearly has on both sides.   And it's pretty clear the groupthink, tribalism and inability to consider opposing viewpoints is just as bad for many on the left as it is for the MAGA's on the right whether some of you recognize that or not.   

You're certainly entitled to your perspective.  I think it's flawed.  I was a staunch conservative throughout my formative years and thought I was until quite recently (within the last 6 years).  As I've said many times on this board, I was the founding member of my law school's Federalist Society.  Yet, I'm regularly labeled here as part of the CR liberal cabal.

So make of that what you will.

Edited January 20, 2022 by DDD Dad

[jimmyjazz 46976]

While appeal to authority is one of the most common logical fallacies, this doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of infectious disease experts are highly confident that vaccines help mitigate the spread of covid, and there are data that back up those perspectives.  They aren't guessing.

For me, the single most damning evidence is the fact that, by an overwhelming margin, the people who are now dying of covid are the unvaccinated.  I mean, I'm not a statistician, but I work with numbers 7 days a week, and that's a hard one to brush off.  Statistics can be often be twisted to support a variety of seemingly contradictory positions, but that one, man, that's a doozy.  Now, the counterargument might be "why do you care if an unvaxxed person dies"?  The answer is that (a) I care about people, even those with whom I disagree and (b) our current vaccines are not bulletproof in terms of preventing the acquisition of all variants of covid.  So yeah, it pisses me off when someone's ignorant viewpoints put me and my family at risk, even if our risk of serious illness is well lower than the person who spread the disease to us. 

To @Skipper in particular:  your read on this forum is wrong.  People are happy to view conflicting information but many are likely to dig in and try to assess the strength of the evidence.  The politicization of covid has overwhelmingly been from the right side of the aisle.  That's just a simple fact.  Don't expect people to blindly accept contrary claims.  I think you're offended that people are rejecting common talking points that have been shot down over and over.  Too bad.

[JimmyJames 12271]

17 minutes ago, Skipper said:

JFC.  This is your takeaway from my posts?   It's a fucking lost cause.   You are right, I'm 41 year old no real risk factor boosted individual that doesn't believe vaccinations work and anti-vax, pro polio.

What does you being a no risk factor boosted individual have to do with anything?  You want a cookie? 
 

You’re just asking questions eh?  Feel free to post for us all those credible scientific opinions you saw on YouTube that the Covid vaccines don’t work. 

[wildcat09 29558]

To add to DDD's solid post, it's hard to initially distinguish between a serious poster trying to honestly discuss something about our nation's covid response and the anti-vax trolls. The trolls rarely make it super duper obvious and usually pretend to be trying to honestly have a good faith discussion, and it's only once you try to engage with them and they don't engage, but rather just re-post the same talking points and shitty debunked youtube vids, that it's clear they're trolls. On the skeptical side of things there's been many more trolls here than people trying to honestly engage in good faith, so by now it makes sense for the rest of us to automatically assume trolling until someone convinces us otherwise. If you're not a troll you don't need to take it personally.

[JimmyJames 12271]

38 minutes ago, Bravo said:

go personal attack when all is lost.

What would you call it when you say ACC Jimmy? 
 

Man you guys are so dim. 

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19279]

5 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

To add to DDD's solid post, it's hard to initially distinguish between a serious poster trying to honestly discuss something about our nation's covid response and the anti-vax trolls. The trolls rarely make it super duper obvious and usually pretend to be trying to honestly have a good faith discussion, and it's only once you try to engage with them and they don't engage, but rather just re-post the same talking points and shitty debunked youtube vids, that it's clear they're trolls. On the skeptical side of things there's been many more trolls here than people trying to honestly engage in good faith, so by now it makes sense for the rest of us to automatically assume trolling until someone convinces us otherwise. If you're not a troll you don't need to take it personally.

This.  Mandates and vaccine passports work, and ultimately result in more people getting vaxxed.  When more of the population is vaccinated, Omicron might still be spreading, but the cases are generally mild, and we are not seeing the overrun of the hospitals.  You can see that in the NY hospitalization numbers.  Where more of the population is vaccinated, there are less people in the hospital because of COVID (there may be more people in the hospital with COVID, but for over 50% of those hospitalized in NYC, that is not why they were admitted), which causes less strain on a scarce resource.  

[DDD Dad 14571]

7 minutes ago, Bravo said:

You're labeled anti-vaxxer trumper moron if you at all bring up anything at all contrary to 100% support of the vax.

This is shifting goalposts.  Skipper was talking about getting bashed for questioning mandates, not the vaccines.  

[Willfully Horn 8204]

13 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

This is shifting goalposts.  Skipper was talking about getting bashed for questioning mandates, not the vaccines.  

Perhaps because I grew up during Vietnam, but I see mandates as akin to the draft. Our country faces an enemy which has killed more Americans than has any war, and much faster, too. While there are individuals who cannot serve (physical, moral, or age reasons,) those who can serve, ought serve. 
 

And I know if we were talking about the draft the sides would flip, for none supported the draft during Vietnam as much as the right did.

Edited to say I now wonder why I linked your post DDD. Sorry.

Edited January 20, 2022 by Willfully Horn

[JimmyJames 12271]

1 minute ago, Willfully Horn said:

Perhaps because I grew up during Vietnam, but I see mandates as akin to the draft. Our country faces an enemy which has killed more Americans than has any war, and much faster, too. While there are individuals who cannot serve (physical, moral, or age reasons,) those who can serve, ought serve. 
 

And I know if we were talking about the draft the sides would flip, for none supported the draft during Vietnam as much as the right did.

It is interesting that the American far right viewed mandatory service in Vietnam as a civic obligation yet now views getting a shot  in the arm as an infringement on their freedoms. Says a lot about their viewpoint. 

[jimmyjazz 46976]

4 minutes ago, Bravo said:

It is considered bashing the vaccine here if you bring up anything showing the vaccine may not be 100% effective. 

Absolutely nobody who posts here has a problem with anyone claiming the vaccine "is not 100% effective".  That's a bullshit red herring meant to distract.

What anyone with a functioning brain not overwhelmed by alt-right talking points gets  justifiably pissed about is the binary "vaccinated people can catch the disease, so what's the point of the vaccine?" bullshit.  You know this.  It's your stock in trade.  You're nothing but a troll.  Fuck you.  Negged, again.

[JimmyJames 12271]

4 minutes ago, Bravo said:

It is considered bashing the vaccine here if you bring up anything showing the vaccine may not be 100% effective. I've been told I am trying to tell people to not vax due to things I've discussed. I just want a balanced discussion on this and not demagoguery of any discussion showing any weakness in the vax as anti-vaxxer. There is nuance. You can be for the vax and against the mandate or passports. It's a real thing. In fact, a lot of people fall into this group. 

This is pretty rich even from you. You don’t want a balanced discussion on anything. You have shown over and over and over again that you just want to troll here and the only reason you haven’t been banned is your socks liking all your bullshit posts. This board is not as stupid as you. 

[DDD Dad 14571]

10 minutes ago, Bravo said:

It is considered bashing the vaccine here if you bring up anything showing the vaccine may not be 100% effective. I've been told I am trying to tell people to not vax due to things I've discussed. I just want a balanced discussion on this and not demagoguery of any discussion showing any weakness in the vax as anti-vaxxer. There is nuance. You can be for the vax and against the mandate or passports. It's a real thing. In fact, a lot of people fall into this group. 

Point me to where ANYONE on this board has said the COVID-19 vaccines (or for that matter any vaccines) are 100 percent effective?  How could one be bashed for bringing up a fact that no one disputes?  What gets bashed is when the effectiveness is argued expressly or impliedly as a reason not to mandate them or receive them.

If you'd like to identify what you think a balanced discussion means, please elaborate.  However based on your posting history I don't really think you're interested in having that type of a discussion.

Edited January 20, 2022 by DDD Dad

[JimmyJames 12271]

Vietnam for thee, no shot for me. 

[4th&Five 41904]

yeah, that post got him moved to ignore.  obviously trolling.

[Hefeweizen 5416]

One last neg and ignore. 

[JimmyJames 12271]

2 minutes ago, Bravo said:

I got the vaccine. You're dense as hell. Would I of got the vax if I believed that? That's what I spoke about earlier. Some here project the perceived thoughts behind the words to discredit anything they say factual or not. So much hatred you can't even have an ounce of logic. There is no point. I tried. Pointless. Thanks for telling me you're going to neg me. Clown. 

You already told us multiple times you got the vaccine. Nobody gives a shit what you say about that. 
 

Then you go on to post anti vax talking points and then when called on it go off on a stupid little rant like this one. 
 

Dont worry. I won’t put you on ignore. When you post your bullshit fake UT diplomas on your fake Hawaii vacations I’ll be along to call you out on it unless you stop using your socks to save you from being negged into oblivion like you so obviously deserve.

[Skipper 6406]

40 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

I'm curious as to which experts in the field have come out against vaccine mandates?  I mean, I get it if your point is that their utility decreases as time goes on, but in terms of actual data, mandates have proven to be very effective (e.g., United Airlines deaths before and after mandate was issued).  Are there a significant number of experts (not cranks or politicians) arguing against mandates?  I've not seen much evidence of that.  

A quick Google search brought up this article.  I found the arguments against mandates to be weak.  Of course, my perspective is biased because I am in favor of mandates.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-59506339

I think the debate is whether the juice is worth the squeeze post omicron.  And at least I personally am not anti private company mandates (not sure I agree with them but firm believer any private company should be able to mandate whatever they want) so I'm talking about govt issued mandates/vax passports. 

As for experts that may share that view, I mentioned in the Daily Texan thread but this podcast synthesized a lot of where I've been coming out on this particularly as Omicron data became more clear.  It articulates a lot of my personal opinions much better than I can.

COVID-19 Archives - Peter Attia (peterattiamd.com)

Peter Attia is a concierge doc (lives in Austin now actually) that is great on all types of health related issues.  I have some genetic heart disease risk so found him several years back when diving into lipids as he has multi-hour podcast that get super in the weeds (really geared more towards other doctors than laymen but can follow along well enough).  He does deep dives with experts in all sorts of fields so listen frequently on any topic that interests me.   The 3 doctors on this podcast are pretty aligned so I wish he would have brought in Peter Hotez for example (who was on an earlier podcast and leans more towards the doom and gloom spectrum) but still a really good listen. 

 

[DDD Dad 14571]

4 minutes ago, Skipper said:

I think the debate is whether the juice is worth the squeeze post omicron.

I don't disagree with you.  I think it is (worth the squeeze).  I won't try to convince someone else who thinks otherwise they're wrong.

[Dahobbs 18190]

1 hour ago, Skipper said:

Here is the issue with this board.  There are way too many opinions, inferences and plausible assertions that are stated as absolute facts without scientific basis and these assertions are made with confidence, vitriol and disdain (or neg reps) for anyone that questions them or doesn't fall in line. 

This isn't just an issue with this board.  I'll note here that you've stated opinions and assertions that I'm confident also fall in this bucket. I think it is human thing.  But I do I think the primary members of this board are open to changing opinions if presented with facts and sources. Based on your posts, I assume you would respond similarly. 

Quote

 

I'm not a scientist or dr but I'm about as well versed on Covid as I can be simply because it's fascinating to be living through.  I've read a ton and listen lots of podcasts (and have a dedicated twitter feed since beginning of pandemic where I follow all spectrums on the medical side including the most doomsday fear mongering (i.e., eric feigle ding) to try to see all viewpoints).  But I also know when I'm out of my element.  And more importantly, there is debate among many of these topics that are actually experts in the field.  And with data constantly changing expert opinions are constantly changing as well.  Hardly any of the topics discussed is settled or fact and my personal opinions are constantly in flux.

 

  Sounds reasonable.

Quote

But vaccinated posters questioning the utility of vaccine mandates essentially being labeled "anti-vax" is the new Biden voters that aren't far left Bernie/AOC ideologues being labeled "Republicans" on this board (which I recall numerous times after not falling in line with liberal agenda when venturing over here during elections season).

I don't understand questioning the utility of mandates. They work in that they increase the uptake of vaccinations. I do understand questioning whether we should do them despite the fact that they work. For instance, perhaps you think the mandates trample on individual liberty and responsibility. I believe there is merit to that argument, although it is in my view tempered by the fact that the unvaccinated cause broader societal harm in the form of marginal increased Covid risk to others and increased healthcare costs/healthcare overrun. I also see some merit in being concerned about how the precedent of allowing forced vaccination, while in my view helpful here, may be abusively used by the government in the future. I think this is a legitimate concerned anytime power is conferred upon government. 

Quote

I'll never understand how Covid became so political but it clearly has on both sides.   And it's pretty clear the groupthink, tribalism and inability to consider opposing viewpoints is just as bad for many on the left as it is for the MAGA's on the right whether some of you recognize that or not. 

I don't think that is clear at all. There may be some unreasonable or unsupported opinions on the left, but I think most of them are at least somewhat grounded in scientific reality. Many of the talking points on the right essentially reject science and reality. 

[Dahobbs 18190]

1 minute ago, Bravo said:

if private business wants to mandate their employees take the vax I have 0 issue with that. You don't have to work there. I do have an issue as did the supreme court having the fed mandate it. If businesses want to get on board as many have then that is their prerogative. 

So how do you feel about the government telling private business they can't mandate vaccination, either for employees or for customers? Do you think that is a problem?

[DDD Dad 14571]

1 minute ago, Dahobbs said:

So how do you feel about the government telling private business they can't mandate vaccination, either for employees or for customers? Do you think that is a problem?

Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!

[JimmyJames 12271]

5 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

So how do you feel about the government telling private business they can't mandate vaccination, either for employees or for customers? Do you think that is a problem?

While you bring up an interesting question my response will remain “my freedoms!”

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19279]

For those who continue to bleat on about natural immunity...

 

 

[JimmyJames 12271]

1 minute ago, Bravo said:

So I fabricated a fake UT diploma, put it in a nice glass frame I got at the Coop, then took a pic of it putting your name on it with a piece of paper to make fun of you questioning me? then I posted pics or a random guy with a Texas hat on in Hawaii at the beach. Quite the elaborate ruse to impress ACC Jimmy. Or it was real to make Jimmy look like a fool for questioning over and over again I didn't go to UT? What seems more likely?

The embarrassing party is you felt it necessary to go to those extreme lengths to prove something on the net. You’re a joke. 
 

And no I don’t believe you. Because I prefer to believe that people as stupid as you didn’t go to the same university I went to and graduated and I believe I’m correct on that. Swam was an idiot but I don’t think he ever graduated. You are even dumber than he was. 

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

Red States = Good, Blue States = Bad

Next question.

[Dahobbs 18190]

1 minute ago, Bravo said:

State or federal level? Many of these powers are delineated to the states. If it is legal in the state I guess it is OK if state law allows but I's still side with business in a lawsuit fighting it to determine who they employ or want in their business. I guess it depends on state law.

I'm not asking whether the government has the constitutional power to enact such laws (I don't expect you to be able to provide that legal analysis), I'm asking whether you think such laws are a good idea. You've said you don't think mandates should be enacted, but you're real wishy washy on whether you support limitations on private entities. It sounds like you're really opposed to mandates and would fight them. And it sounds like you're marginally opposed to anti-mandates, but aren't going to really fight them. I find that perspective perverse and inconsistent.  

[Anastasis 23699]

Liberal arts degree, would not bang. 

[Anastasis 23699]

The issue is not really one of vaccine effectiveness, from my perspective.  It is one of which levers are most effective to increase vaccination rates, can be supported by the scientific evidence, applied with some level of logical coherence and consistency based on that evidence, and respect and balance the relevant principles of biomedical ethics.  I think that there are various forms of mandates that can appropriately balance those considerations, and many forms of mandates that do not. Broad authoritarian stick-based initiatives, esp to the extent that they are government enforced, will have predictable consequences.  They harden the battle lines, and result in spillover effects on the public perception of a broad range of public health initiatives, both vaccine related and otherwise.

I think that the vast majority of us want to see vaccination rates as high as possible. The question is how to get there. From my perspective, generally more carrot and less stick. And to the extent that we need to talk mandates, they need to balance a variety of considerations.    

Edited January 20, 2022 by Anastasis