CR: COVID-19 --Political Talk

[JimmyJames 12271]

3 minutes ago, Bravo said:

and the spin continues. just stop posting today and regroup. your 2 lies directly contradict the actual data. there is no saving face.

Dr. Bravo still is done discussing this with sawbonz. 

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19093]

We cannot have this hodge podge of different municipal and city requirements.  To get out of this shit, we need a coordinated federal effort.  I recommend we do like France and Italy have done and institute a Green Pass.  A Green Pass is a federal record that shows your vaccinations/boosters.  Proof of prior COVID infection would be accepted, but there has to be an official COVID positive result on record (official lab result) or an official antibody test showing prior infection.  No honor system.  This would an electronic record that could be easily accessed on your smart phone.  You would have to show this to board an airplane, attend a sporting event, go out to eat, go to a concert.  

This is the way forward. 

[wildcat09 29261]

35 minutes ago, Skipper said:

I think we can all agree that we are a dumb society but we shouldn't let that dictate policy.  A lot of the current anti-vax propaganda is the fact that the US has actively downplayed benefits of natural immunity (and they are right).  "And if they are lying about that what else are they lying about to get us to take the vaccine".   Dishonesty or active omission has been a problem the entire pandemic.   Like the whole "masks don't work" messaging in an effort to conserve masks for the people that need it.   I get why they did it at the time but that gave unlimited firepower to the anti-maskers.

Haven't you guys been arguing that we shouldn't do mandates because people don't like them?  So we should base policy on how people will react to it except when we shouldn't?

[Judge Roybeanbag 11810]

27 minutes ago, Immaculate Vibes said:

Unvaxxed are running about 60-65% of Covid admissions this wave. 

Yeah, but they only make up about 30% of the population, Mr. Math Ingenious.

[JimmyJames 12271]

1 hour ago, Bravo said:

This will be the last I answer anything from you because you are disingenuous and argue in bad faith not figuring someone would call you out on your BS.   

Said Dr. Bravo over an hour and five posts ago. 

[Don Johnson 4745]

1 minute ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

Without official proof of prior infection, how can you make that call?  And an honor system is bullshit, because were KNOW there are people that are going to game the system, see the fake vaccine cards.  This is what all you "Immunity" people seem to miss.  There has to be documented proof of that.  We cannot even fucking test well or keep fake vaccine cards off the market.  Honor system does not work.  

I am all for a national database of vaccines and proof of prior infection, but I know how many people will bleat about that.  See the Green pass in France.  If you are willing to do something like the Green Pass (which should be required to be shown to fly, travel, attend sporting events, etc..), then I am ok with allowing prior infection.  However, there will be no ability to test out.  So it is either vax or prior infection unless you have a PROVEN medical reason why you cannot get vaxxed.

Honor system is bullshit.  But when you set up the "testing apparatus" placing no value on immunity from prior infection you find yourself in this position.  

You recently had it and took a home test.  When you are making decisions about when to get your next booster, you will factor that in won't you? 

[Leeroy Jenkins 2394]

I think that it is interesting that I know of at least 6 people who have had COVID twice.  Neither of them have been vaccinated.   I don't know a single person who has been vaccinated that has had COVID twice.   

[Leeroy Jenkins 2394]

9 minutes ago, Bravo said:

pRiVaTe eMAiLs

[lemonlime 5503]

6 minutes ago, Leeroy Jenkins said:

I think that it is interesting that I know of at least 6 people who have had COVID twice.  Neither of them have been vaccinated.   I don't know a single person who has been vaccinated that has had COVID twice.   

I know two people who had Covid twice and were vaccinated, but in both instances the first bout of Covid was from before the vaccines were available.  For the people bleating about natural immunity on here.

[Don Johnson 4745]

1 minute ago, lemonlime said:

I know two people who had Covid twice and were vaccinated, but in both instances the first bout of Covid was from before the vaccines were available.  For the people bleating about natural immunity on here.

Sounds like neither the vaccine or immunity from prior infection stopped the second bout.  But I'm sure they avoided a negative outcome.

[lemonlime 5503]

1 minute ago, Don Johnson said:

Sounds like neither the vaccine or immunity from prior infection stopped the second bout.  But I'm sure they avoided a negative outcome.

Yes, they did.  It was omicron and they were vaccinated.  Maybe the prior non-omicron cases they had roughly two years ago conferred some additional ability to ward off the symptoms of omicron.   I'm not going to speculate about what the interplay was given that not even the scientists know at this point.  If only the trolls on this board and elsewhere would stop the speculation based on facebook/youtube/twitter research.... 

[Incredulity 11555]

14 minutes ago, Leeroy Jenkins said:

I think that it is interesting that I know of at least 6 people who have had COVID twice.  Neither of them have been vaccinated.   I don't know a single person who has been vaccinated that has had COVID twice.   

raises hand.

double vax'd.  Delta and Omicron(assume from timing) infections.  Late Oct and Late Dec.

[Don Johnson 4745]

1 minute ago, lemonlime said:

Yes, they did.  It was omicron and they were vaccinated.  Maybe the prior non-omicron cases they had roughly two years ago conferred some additional ability to ward off the symptoms of omicron.   I'm not going to speculate about what the interplay was given that not even the scientists know at this point.  If only the trolls on this board and elsewhere would stop the speculation based on facebook/youtube/twitter research.... 

....CDC

[lemonlime 5503]

3 minutes ago, Don Johnson said:

....CDC

The CDC said prior infection provides protection against Omicron?

Edit to add: No.  They did not.

People who had previously been infected with COVID-19 were better protected against the Delta variant than those who were vaccinated alone, suggesting that natural immunity was a more potent shield than vaccines against that variant, California and New York health officials reported on Wednesday.

Protection against Delta was highest, however, among people who were both vaccinated and had survived a previous COVID infection, and lowest among those who had never been infected or vaccinated, the study found.

 

Nevertheless, vaccination remains the safest strategy against COVID-19, according to the report published in U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report.

The results do not apply to the Omicron variant of the virus, which now accounts for 99.5% of COVID-19 cases in the United States.

"The evidence in this report does not change our vaccination recommendations," Dr. Ben Silk of the CDC and one of the study's authors told a media briefing.

 

Edited January 21, 2022 by lemonlime

[Neonmoon 38127]

Immaculate will continue to post anti-vaccine bullshit forever. The end game of Covid is his time to shine 

[Skipper 6103]

30 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Haven't you guys been arguing that we shouldn't do mandates because people don't like them?  So we should base policy on how people will react to it except when we shouldn't?

I think the fact that they are divisive is a factor CONSIDERING the main argument is I don't think, post Omicron, they move the needle and are massively too broad.  If you want to mandate over 40 obese or diabetics with no evidence of prior infection get the vaccine go for it.  But then we are "fat shaming".

Edited January 21, 2022 by Skipper

[Don Johnson 4745]

3 minutes ago, lemonlime said:

The CDC said prior infection provides protection against Omicron?

Edit to add: No.  They did not.

People who had previously been infected with COVID-19 were better protected against the Delta variant than those who were vaccinated alone, suggesting that natural immunity was a more potent shield than vaccines against that variant, California and New York health officials reported on Wednesday.

Protection against Delta was highest, however, among people who were both vaccinated and had survived a previous COVID infection, and lowest among those who had never been infected or vaccinated, the study found.

 

Nevertheless, vaccination remains the safest strategy against COVID-19, according to the report published in U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report.

The results do not apply to the Omicron variant of the virus, which now accounts for 99.5% of COVID-19 cases in the United States.

"The evidence in this report does not change our vaccination recommendations," Dr. Ben Silk of the CDC and one of the study's authors told a media briefing.

 

I didn't say that as there obviously haven't been studies yet on Omicron.  But you can speculate based on the Delta study published by the CDC.  So its not just coming from Facebook.

[lemonlime 5503]

 

 

10 minutes ago, lemonlime said:

Yes, they did.  It was omicron and they were vaccinated.  Maybe the prior non-omicron cases they had roughly two years ago conferred some additional ability to ward off the symptoms of omicron.   I'm not going to speculate about what the interplay was given that not even the scientists know at this point.  If only the trolls on this board and elsewhere would stop the speculation based on facebook/youtube/twitter research.... 

 

9 minutes ago, Don Johnson said:

....CDC

 

7 minutes ago, lemonlime said:

The CDC said prior infection provides protection against Omicron?

Edit to add: No.  They did not.

 

 

 

1 minute ago, Don Johnson said:

I didn't say that as there obviously haven't been studies yet on Omicron.  But you can speculate based on the Delta study published by the CDC.  So its not just coming from Facebook.

 

Ok.  So you're speculating based on something the CDC said about Delta.  Especially since we know how vaccination interplays with Omicron is different than Delta.  But, okay, then.

[DDD Dad 14252]

2 hours ago, Bravo said:

This will be the last I answer anything from you because you are disingenuous and argue in bad faith not figuring someone would call you out on your BS. The numbers dont support it when you compare to CA historic data. ICU beds which you mentioned over and over again in your argument as being "way down" when they're way up as a reason to loosen restrictions was proven a lie. Deaths are higher in CA as we speak than a good portion of the pandemic especially when their strict policies started. Cases are double the last wave. It is a pure political move not based on the data Newsome has used in the past to make policy. Hypocrisy.  

Haha at Sawbonz being disingenuous.  Your reading comprehension appears to be poor.

[DDD Dad 14252]

22 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

raises hand.

double vax'd.  Delta and Omicron(assume from timing) infections.  Late Oct and Late Dec.

Maybe you should spend less time at the scrip clubs.

[Incredulity 11555]

6 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

Maybe you should spend less time at the scrip clubs.

[DDD Dad 14252]

1 minute ago, Bravo said:

Uh, he is flat out making stuff up if you haven't been paying attention. Twice. Apologized kinda but made excuse so not real apology since he then lied in the apology. Explained away by secret emails with secret data the exact opposite of the public data. You may need the definition. 

 

Sawbonz consistently has been a straight shooter on this board.  He admitted that he made a mistaken assumption in response to data you provided.  You seem to think that anyone who acknowledges their errors is a liar.  That's pretty much the opposite of disingenuousness.

Now, your posts....

[Immaculate Vibes 114]

A good discussion on evidence for masks, closures, etc. 

 

25 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

Immaculate will continue to post anti-vaccine bullshit forever. The end game of Covid is his time to shine 

I’m anti-mandate, anti-vax pass, anti blanket policy for all ages and populations.  I said the vast majority should’ve been vaccinated rather than waiting to contract Covid naturally first. I doubt these are considered anti-vax positions much outside of CR. 

[RomaVicta 29796]

4 minutes ago, Bravo said:

LOL OK. He lied in his "apology" too. Quickly spun by him with his secret data. The adjective is appropriate. 

Do you not tolerate liars to the extent that you won't vote for them?

[Don Johnson 4745]

3 minutes ago, lemonlime said:

Ok.  So you're speculating based on something the CDC said about Delta.  Especially since we know how vaccination interplays with Omicron is different than Delta.  But, okay, then.

Yes. Based on multiple studies, policies from other countries, and anecdotal musings, I will continue to speculate that immunity from prior infection contributes to positive outcomes.  If you disagree with my speculation - okay, then.

Are you arguing that no value should be placed on acquired immunity with regards to Omicron until the inevitable studies are done?  Because the CDC continues to roll with its 90 day window for those with prior infection regardless of whether its alpha, delta, or omicron without Omicron studies in the books.  If many of our policies and recommendations, including vaccinations, are based on prior variants, I'm comfortable with my personal speculation based on prior variants.

[DDD Dad 14252]

1 hour ago, Passive Aggressive Coach said:

I got run out of town speaking about natural immunity here a few mos back. I can attest to this. All I said I'm going to rely on my natural immunity per a very large study out of Israel. I had it and data was showing natural immunity looks strong. Now there are even more studies demonstrating it. Never spoke out against the vax just said natural immunity appears quite strong and I won't be getting vaxxed. The hate was real. 

No, you got run out of town for posting anti-vaxx false information.  Then you doubled down on it.  Then you created a new username.

I still like your food posts.

[lemonlime 5503]

2 minutes ago, Don Johnson said:

Yes. Based on multiple studies, policies from other countries, and anecdotal musings, I will continue to speculate that immunity from prior infection contributes to positive outcomes.  If you disagree with my speculation - okay, then.

Are you arguing that no value should be placed on acquired immunity with regards to Omicron until the inevitable studies are done?  Because the CDC continues to roll with its 90 day window for those with prior infection regardless of whether its alpha, delta, or omicron without Omicron studies in the books.  If many of our policies and recommendations, including vaccinations, are based on prior variants, I'm comfortable with my personal speculation based on prior variants.

I'm not arguing for anything, other than when it comes to policy decisions on who should be vaccinated and whether vaccination should be mandatory, I want to hear what the scientists are going to recommend, and not some random person named after a Miami Vice character on a message board filled with assholes.

[DDD Dad 14252]

2 hours ago, Don Johnson said:

Unfortunately, unlike other countries, we have continued to place zero value on immunity gained from prior infection.  And have no plan in place to record or credit those with prior infection. 

How do we handle other mandatory vaccinations where individuals may have had a prior infection (e.g., measles)?

[DDD Dad 14252]

14 minutes ago, Bravo said:

LOL OK. He lied in his "apology" too. Quickly spun by him with his secret data. The adjective is appropriate. 

[Don Johnson 4745]

Just now, lemonlime said:

I'm not arguing for anything, other than when it comes to policy decisions on who should be vaccinated and whether vaccination should be mandatory, I want to hear what the scientists are going to recommend, and not some random person named after a Miami Vice character on a message board filled with assholes.

Sleep comfortably knowing the scientist call Tubbs* way more often than they call me.  

 

*He doesn't value prior infection at all but we still get along.

[Incredulity 11555]

Just now, DDD Dad said:

How do we handle other mandatory vaccinations where individuals may have had a prior infection (e.g., measles)?

well being most mandatory immunizations are given over the first 18 months of life I am not sure how that can be compared.

[Don Johnson 4745]

2 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

How do we handle other mandatory vaccinations where individuals may have had a prior infection (e.g., measles)?

I don't think measles policies should have anything to do with Covid policies, but

CDC considers you protected from measles if you have written documentation (records) showing at least one of the following:

• You received two doses of measles-containing vaccine, and you are a(n) —
  • school-aged child (grades K-12)
  • adult who will be in a setting that poses a high risk for measles transmission, including students at post-high school education institutions, healthcare personnel, and international travelers.
• You received one dose of measles-containing vaccine, and you are a(n) —
  • preschool-aged child
  • adult who will not be in a high-risk setting for measles transmission.
• A laboratory confirmed that you had measles at some point in your life.
• A laboratory confirmed that you are immune to measles.
• You were born before 1957.

https://www.cdc.gov/measles/about/faqs.html

[DDD Dad 14252]

9 minutes ago, Don Johnson said:

I don't think measles policies should have anything to do with Covid policies, but

CDC considers you protected from measles if you have written documentation (records) showing at least one of the following:

• You received two doses of measles-containing vaccine, and you are a(n) —
  • school-aged child (grades K-12)
  • adult who will be in a setting that poses a high risk for measles transmission, including students at post-high school education institutions, healthcare personnel, and international travelers.
• You received one dose of measles-containing vaccine, and you are a(n) —
  • preschool-aged child
  • adult who will not be in a high-risk setting for measles transmission.
• A laboratory confirmed that you had measles at some point in your life.
• A laboratory confirmed that you are immune to measles.
• You were born before 1957.

https://www.cdc.gov/measles/about/faqs.html

Seems reasonable.  Perhaps something like this can be instituted soon.  ETA: Don't let perfect be the be the enemy of good.

Edited January 21, 2022 by DDD Dad

[JimmyJames 12271]

28 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

Maybe you should spend less time at the scrip clubs.

Let’s all just try to simmer down now up in here. Strippers need to eat too. Or so I’ve been told. 

[Passive Aggressive Coach 87]

11 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

No, you got run out of town for posting anti-vaxx false information.  Then you doubled down on it.  Then you created a new username.

I still like your food posts.

That's untrue. If you're going to make a claim like that then state what I said which was misinformation. 

[wildcat09 29261]

Nobody has ever said prior infection doesn't confer a significant degree of immunity. What a bunch of us do say is that previous infection can't be used as a factor in national public health policy because there's no practical way to easily verify it. We're shit enough at administering virtually any response, but a broad vaccine requirement is simple to administer. The more complexity you add, the harder it becomes and the less effective it as as policy. 

Maybe had adults been in charge of the federal policy at the very beginning, things could be different and we'd have more capacity in place to carry out something more complex. But we had a bunch of grifters more intent on stealing PPE from states and selling it on a quasi-black market than in managing any serious response to covid. 

[JimmyJames 12271]

6 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

Don’t be talking to Dr. Bravo like that while he’s busy schooling sawbonz on the ways of medicine and hospital stats.

[DDD Dad 14252]

2 minutes ago, Passive Aggressive Coach said:

That's untrue. If you're going to make a claim like that then state what I said which was misinformation. 

[NameAlreadyInUse 5106]

1 hour ago, Immaculate Vibes said:

Again, not the same. Do any other vaccines have a complication rate as high for something serious like myocarditis? Conservative estimate of 1 in 3-6,000 of the young male cohort that these mandates in part target. Let me help you out, no other vaccines do. For a virus that causes them minimal harm and the vast majority have already been exposed to. And you can still pop positive eventually. Dumb policy. 

The incidence of myocarditis in young males is higher in young males who actually get COVID than that get it from the vaccine, as a Joe Rogan video upstream in this thread showed.  You might want to rethink this argument based on that data.  

[Anastasis 23394]

1 minute ago, wildcat09 said:

Nobody has ever said prior infection doesn't confer a significant degree of immunity. What a bunch of us do say is that previous infection can't be used as a factor in national public health policy because there's no practical way to easily verify it.

Serological conversion is very easy to establish via lab test.  Many posters here have already taken the test that would be sufficient to establish prior infection as part of Texas Cares. 

[Immaculate Vibes 114]

2 minutes ago, lemonlime said:

I'm not arguing for anything, other than when it comes to policy decisions on who should be vaccinated and whether vaccination should be mandatory, I want to hear what the scientists are going to recommend, and not some random person named after a Miami Vice character on a message board filled with assholes.

Our scientists/policy makers are very questionable, or sussy if you have kids. Does anywhere else recommend masking down to the age of 2 like our CDC does? I don’t think so. Schools were closed here longer than most of the rest of the world.
 

As far as vaccinations go, we just have blanket recommendations, vaxx and boost everyone the same. Except we haven’t recommended boosting 5-11 year olds yet I believe. But all over the world there are reasonable modifications around policy based on science. No shots in young children.  Not boosting teens. One shot after infection for teens. Recognizing natural immunity officially. No Moderna under 30. Do these different countries have bad science? Or are they actually following science related to a disease and vaccine that affects different portions of the population differently?

 

Plenty of people can see that a lot of these things don’t make sense from just a common sense perspective like masking 3 year olds. Or keeping schools closed to protect adults. How does that affect confidence in policy makers? I’ll let you guess. 

[DDD Dad 14252]

Just now, Immaculate Vibes said:

As far as vaccinations go, we just have blanket recommendations, vaxx and boost everyone the same. Except we haven’t recommended boosting 5-11 year olds yet I believe. But all over the world there are reasonable modifications around policy based on science. No shots in young children.  Not boosting teens. One shot after infection for teens. Recognizing natural immunity officially. No Moderna under 30. Do these different countries have bad science? Or are they actually following science related to a disease and vaccine that affects different portions of the population differently?

It's almost as if they created broad, sweeping policies (think shotgun rather than rifle) to deal with an emergency situation, like, I dunno, a GLOBAL PANDEMIC.

[Don Johnson 4745]

6 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Nobody has ever said prior infection doesn't confer a significant degree of immunity. What a bunch of us do say is that previous infection can't be used as a factor in national public health policy because there's no practical way to easily verify it. We're shit enough at administering virtually any response, but a broad vaccine requirement is simple to administer. The more complexity you add, the harder it becomes and the less effective it as as policy. 

Maybe had adults been in charge of the federal policy at the very beginning, things could be different and we'd have more capacity in place to carry out something more complex. But we had a bunch of grifters more intent on stealing PPE from states and selling it on a quasi-black market than in managing any serious response to covid. 

Yes, many on here have said prior infection doesn't mean shit.

It could've been as easy as verifying vaccination but we made the choice to ignore it.  And in the beginning, we did keep track of it very well.  There were no at home tests and anyone who tested positive was recorded and got an e-mail that read them the riot act.

Only since Delta have we not been able to officially keep up with positive cases because we decided no matter what, we weren't going to accept it.  

Edited January 21, 2022 by Don Johnson

[RDCanecutter 26284]

20 hours ago, TurkeyChew said:

I think you are suffering from a recency bias or something, because a quick google search shows that in the 80's, seatbelt laws were a HUGE political issue. Just google and read about it. 

https://www.history.com/news/seat-belt-laws-resistance

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/09/16/when-battle-over-american-freedom-was-centered-seat-belt-laws/

I'd rather be thrown clear of the virus.

[JimmyJames 12271]

3 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Serological conversion is very easy to establish via lab test.  Many posters here have already taken the test that would be sufficient to establish prior infection as part of Texas Cares. 

Can confirm. Texas cares test both times confirmed no prior Covid infection but vaccine antibodies both times. Numbers did go down from around 1170 to around 780, whatever that means. Pre booster. Third test in February,  I think. 

[JimmyJames 12271]

2 minutes ago, RDCanecutter said:

I'd rather be thrown clear of the virus.

I actually know a guy where that actually worked on loop 360. He’s a pretty fucking lucky dude though. 

[DDD Dad 14252]

1 minute ago, Don Johnson said:

It could've been as easy as verifying vaccination but we made the choice to ignore it.  And in the beginning, we did keep track of it very well.  There were no at home tests and anyone who tested positive was recorded and got an e-mail that read them the riot act.

Only since Delta have we not been able to officially keep up with positive cases because we decided no matter what, we weren't going to accept it.  

I think very few people will argue with you that the Biden Administration (and the free market in response to the focus on vaccinations) dropped the ball on pushing testing.  They did not foresee the Delta wave, and got caught with their pants down and testing manufacturers with shuttered plants and laid off workers.  They relied too greatly on the data from Pfizer and Moderna in thinking the vaccines would bring us out of the pandemic in a matter of weeks/months.

That ship sailed, though, so there's really not much point in bitching about it now.  How do we move forward?

[Immaculate Vibes 114]

3 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

It's almost as if they created broad, sweeping policies (think shotgun rather than rifle) to deal with an emergency situation, like, I dunno, a GLOBAL PANDEMIC.

2 year in is an emergency? Others have adjusted. We haven’t.
 

Why does CDC still recommend masking down to 2 years old almost 2 years in?

 

 

8 minutes ago, NameAlreadyInUse said:

The incidence of myocarditis in young males is higher in young males who actually get COVID than that get it from the vaccine, as a Joe Rogan video upstream in this thread showed.  You might want to rethink this argument based on that data.  

From the discussion I posted above.

“What still boggles my mind, is when you just do the simple math using the German studyof infection-hospitalization rates in healthy children, you get a 1/2400 chance a healthy 12-17 year old will be hospitalized for COVID-19 requiring specific covid treatment (this eliminates incidental hospitalizations) and, now with omicron, that is likely around 1/5000 risk (or lower) and yet the rate of symptomatic post vax myocarditis after dose 2 in this age group is around 1/3000 (see below) and yet so few seem to be questioning dose 2 for them (when mathematically it’s the wrong decision), let alone dose 3, which seems a clear mistake to mandate without evidence of benefit. And the most recent NEJM study of vaccines in children found dose 1 may actually alone have all of the benefit in terms preventing hospitalizations (see Figure 2, which is shown below). These are important details that should be used to minimize harm.”

This data is all out there. 

[Anastasis 23394]

 

4 minutes ago, JimmyJames said:

Numbers did go down from around 1170 to around 780, whatever that means.

 

Probably AIDS. 

[JimmyJames 12271]

1 minute ago, Anastasis said:

 

 

Probably AIDS. 

Yeah but it’s the Magic Johnson aids, not the EazyE aids.