CR: COVID-19 --Political Talk

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19,279]

51 minutes ago, DaysOff said:

Spent most of Friday on a long NYC layover walking midtown Manhattan. Those three hour long lines waiting for a covid test we saw on the news 3 or 4 weeks ago; gone. I saw one pop up tent for testing with nobody in it. Looks like their surge is over.

That is because it had no one else to infect.  In one month, almost everyone I know in the city (if they were here) had it.

[Brisketexan 106,618]

So….Stockton is an utter dumbass, and a gullible one to boot.

Someone should ask him to name the 100 athletes who have dropped dead on the field from the vaccines. Go for it John, we’ve got all day.

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19,279]

1 minute ago, jimmyjazz said:

It's really too bad Kyle wasn't on the 2004 team that stole a Rose Bowl berth from A-A-Ron and Cal.

I am 99.9% sure A-A-Ron still has his panties in a twist over that.  What a fucking twat.

[jimmyjazz 46,972]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

So….Stockton is an utter dumbass, and a gullible one to boot.

Someone should ask him to name the 100 athletes who have dropped dead on the Felix from the vaccines. Go for it John, we’ve got all day.

*150

Let's do a quick calculation:  the United States represents roughly 4.2% of the world's population.  If we make the assumption that those 150 dead professional athletes were distributed uniformly across the world -- a stretch, but work with me here, it's early -- then we should expect some 6 or 7 pro athletes have died in the US while competing over the last year.

To my knowledge, not one American pro athlete has died while competing during that time frame.  If any did, it was a racing accident or something like that.

Conclusion:  John Stockton is a moron.

[JimmyJames 12,271]

Always hated that pasty looking bitch for some reason. Not surprised to learn he’s a complete dumbass. 

[Gatorubet 30,631]

Pesky biomedical ethics. 

Add it to Viagra and put the info on page 32 of the FDA label. All those old white men now vaxxed and legally warned.

[Brisketexan 106,618]

Back to [mention=20]Sawbonz[/mention] point….seems the administration is thinking correctly on this (although, again, communication is shit). From a piece in Newsweek:

“The Biden transition team doctors think Americans will consider the COVID-19 crisis over if the death rate drops to something like what seasonal flu causes. Each winter in the last decade, flu strains have caused between 12,000 and 50,000 deaths. That's a terrible toll, but it's become predictable.

"People get their vaccine and they're ready," says the University of Washington's Mokdad. "We don't shut down the government. We don't do contact tracing for flu. That's an endemic situation, and that's what you hope for from COVID-19."”

Bingo. That’s the target. The piece also mentions periodic updates/boosters to vaccines to address future variants. There’s a good strategy out there, it just needs to be communicated. Oh, and it needs to be accepted…..but because its primary points are “get vaccinated, get vaccinated,” it won’t be accepted. Instead, we’re going to remain a nation of people standing around with untouched buckets full of water yelling at political leaders asking “why won’t you put out this fire?!?!?” We won’t help ourselves, so we’ll fuck over ourselves. Brilliant as always.

[jimmyjazz 46,972]

That's a reasonable goal, but the problem is we're a long way from that mortality rate.  w/o knowing if covid will become seasonal (like the flu), that's something like 150 dead Americans every day, all year long, albeit higher if it's a "short season".  We're at 10X that rate right now.

[Sawbonz 28,081]

1 hour ago, jimmyjazz said:

It's really too bad Kyle wasn't on the 2004 team that stole a Rose Bowl berth from A-A-Ron and Cal.

Graham Harrell was a backup at GB and for a while lived in Rodgers’s house. I always wondered how often he would say hey Aaron remember when Sonny Cumbie kicked your ass in the holiday bowl?

[shakahorn 1,655]

Quick google - whew. Shanahan is vaxxed and probably boosted.

[HenryJames 67,116]

 

[Brisketexan 106,618]

That's a reasonable goal, but the problem is we're a long way from that mortality rate.  w/o knowing if covid will become seasonal (like the flu), that's something like 150 dead Americans every day, all year long, albeit higher if it's a "short season".  We're at 10X that rate right now.

Of course we’re not there. We’re in the middle of a surge. The question is whether it’s the last really big one. A high rate of infection combined with a decent vax rate may get us there.

But we also know that where we’ve been is not sustainable for much longer.

[jimmyjazz 46,972]

5 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Of course we’re not there. We’re in the middle of a surge. The question is whether it’s the last really big one. A high rate of infection combined with a decent vax rate may get us there.

We haven't had a 7-day rolling average in mortality below 250 deaths per day since the start of the pandemic.  It's not just "the surge", it's a very low number that might be hard to hit.  I'm just cautioning that people might think we're closer than we really are.

[RDCanecutter 26,853]

2 hours ago, jimmyjazz said:

*150

Let's do a quick calculation:  the United States represents roughly 4.2% of the world's population.  If we make the assumption that those 150 dead professional athletes were distributed uniformly across the world -- a stretch, but work with me here, it's early -- then we should expect some 6 or 7 pro athletes have died in the US while competing over the last year.

To my knowledge, not one American pro athlete has died while competing during that time frame.  If any did, it was a racing accident or something like that.

Conclusion:  John Stockton is a moron.

Maybe it was like 150 soccer deaths, where after being dead for a minute or two, then they got back up and kept playing.

[Skipper 6,406]

3 hours ago, Immaculate Vibes said:

Read before negging. Well reasoned and written. 
 

 

I was actually coming to post this as I read it this morning.  Really good read and extremely thorough.   Attia is the best.  I'm excited to listen to the follow up podcast he mentioned that sounds like it will drop tomorrow.

[Willfully Horn 8,204]

6 hours ago, ouflak said:

This is not strictly true. It has been scientifically and statistically demonstrated that there are direct correlations between age/certain pre-rexisting conditions and the chances of becoming ill in any way, or dying. So depending on your background, you can have some idea. And, depending on those background details, you can be something like 99.999% certain you won't have any symptoms at all (young with no pre-existing conditions).

Folks who think they know stuff, but don’t, are shitty.

[Skipper 6,406]

Also, from the "people are pretty much fucking over it" anecdotes, was at a musical at Winspear in Dallas over the weekend with my wife.  Both pre-show and during intermission, overheard numerous conversations among people bitching about Covid policies of "mask worn all times inside theatre" which meant you weren't allowed to bring drinks in which of course meant people had to pound them or waste them.  Noticed the bartender reminding people of the policy and asked if he had a lot of people wait in line and change their mind.  He said yeah but we had so many pissed off people trying to get refunds after not realizing until trying to walk in we have to tell everyone up front.

[JimmyJames 12,271]

1 hour ago, shakahorn said:

Quick google - whew. Shanahan is vaxxed and probably boosted.

Of course. He’s not an idiot like Rodgers. 

[Immaculate Vibes 114]

55 minutes ago, Skipper said:

Also, from the "people are pretty much fucking over it" anecdotes, was at a musical at Winspear in Dallas over the weekend with my wife.  Both pre-show and during intermission, overheard numerous conversations among people bitching about Covid policies of "mask worn all times inside theatre" which meant you weren't allowed to bring drinks in which of course meant people had to pound them or waste them.  Noticed the bartender reminding people of the policy and asked if he had a lot of people wait in line and change their mind.  He said yeah but we had so many pissed off people trying to get refunds after not realizing until trying to walk in we have to tell everyone up front.

Nonsense. Imagine how much safer it would’ve been if every man, woman, and child had to scan a QR code verifying their vaccine status before being allowed to enter.

 

In all seriousness it is a great column. Very hard to poke holes in it. The only one I can think of that he didn’t address was the whole unvaccinated people are source of mutations argument. But again we’re talking about maybe 10% of American adults that are unvaccinated and not previously infected. How much more replication really occurs in them than the millions of vaxxed that are getting infected? It’s a such a small differential that you’re trying to stamp out. And that’s without mentioning worldwide unvaxxed populations that are a much bigger vector for mutation that remains no matter how many people we vaccinate here under threat of unemployment or being excluded socially. 

Edited January 23, 2022 by Immaculate Vibes

[shakahorn 1,655]

3 hours ago, jimmyjazz said:

*150

Let's do a quick calculation:  the United States represents roughly 4.2% of the world's population.  If we make the assumption that those 150 dead professional athletes were distributed uniformly across the world -- a stretch, but work with me here, it's early -- then we should expect some 6 or 7 pro athletes have died in the US while competing over the last year.

To my knowledge, not one American pro athlete has died while competing during that time frame.  If any did, it was a racing accident or something like that.

Conclusion:  John Stockton is a moron.

I don't think you had to do all that work to come to that conclusion.

[Sawbonz 28,081]

1 hour ago, jimmyjazz said:

We haven't had a 7-day rolling average in mortality below 250 deaths per day since the start of the pandemic.  It's not just "the surge", it's a very low number that might be hard to hit.  I'm just cautioning that people might think we're closer than we really are.

We know it doesn’t make young healthy people extremely sick at a high rate. And we know vaxed 80 year olds have lower odds of being hospitalized from it than healthy young adults do. So we know who the vast majority of deaths will be going forward. And at this point I have no fucks left to give for them

[Bama Chick 28,596]

Read before negging. Well reasoned and written. 
 
 

Peter Attia? Let’s check him out.









-Left medicine to work for fucking McKinsey
-Makes a living as a “medical influencer” on social media and a podcast
-Peddles junk pseudo-science and fad diets
-Has been a “medical expert” guest of “The Joe Rogan Experience” and Gwyneth Paltrow’s GOOP podcast

I think I’ll pass.

[Immaculate Vibes 114]

18 minutes ago, Bama Chick said:

Peter Attia? Let’s check him out.









-Left medicine to work for fucking McKinsey
-Makes a living as a “medical influencer” on social media and a podcast
-Peddles junk pseudo-science and fad diets
-Has been a “medical expert” guest of “The Joe Rogan Experience” and Gwyneth Paltrow’s GOOP podcast

I think I’ll pass.

When my priors are challenged, I go to a credential check first as well. Smart move. That way you never find out you’re losing the argument. 

[Neonmoon 38,130]

3 minutes ago, Immaculate Vibes said:

When my priors are challenged, I go to a credential check first as well. Smart move. That way you never find out you’re losing the argument. 

Post fringe waco article. Get called out on it. Cry about it. 

Why are you ant-vaccine mandate? Is it just Covid or does this include all vaccines? Do you think every person should be able to decide which vaccines are necessary and which ones are not? 

 

 

[NWBuck 8,619]

5 hours ago, HenryJames said:

 

 

[jimmyjazz 46,972]

1 hour ago, Sawbonz said:

We know it doesn’t make young healthy people extremely sick at a high rate. And we know vaxed 80 year olds have lower odds of being hospitalized from it than healthy young adults do. So we know who the vast majority of deaths will be going forward. And at this point I have no fucks left to give for them

I have few fucks to give as well, but if the public health policy is targeting a flu-like mortality rate, then we don't get to exclude the unvaccinated, do we?

[Pescado_Rojo 19,558]

1 hour ago, Bama Chick said:

Peter Attia? Let’s check him out.









-Left medicine to work for fucking McKinsey
-Makes a living as a “medical influencer” on social media and a podcast
-Peddles junk pseudo-science and fad diets
-Has been a “medical expert” guest of “The Joe Rogan Experience” and Gwyneth Paltrow’s GOOP podcast

I think I’ll pass.

You could have just stopped at McKinsey

[gmr548 16,681]

5 hours ago, HenryJames said:

 

lmao what in the actual fuck

[Bookman 4,754]

42 minutes ago, gmr548 said:

lmao what in the actual fuck

It's a good thing he could play basketball.

[Biff Tannen 46,061]

Of course Stockton is an anti-vaxxer.  Just of course.  Hated him when he played and I hate him now.

[DDD Dad 14,571]

3 hours ago, RDCanecutter said:

Maybe it was like 150 soccer deaths, where after being dead for a minute or two, then they got back up and kept playing.

Or maybe it was that plane full of them that crashed in the Andes. 

[RDCanecutter 26,853]

2 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

Or maybe it was that plane full of them that crashed in the Andes. 

Brings up the question of if a plane full of soccer players crashed in the Andes, are we sure they didn't just fly past the mountains then acted like they crashed?

[Guest Lobo]

I thought they were rugby players.  

Did john meet these suddenly dead 150 pro athletes at a different high school in Canada, while at Niagara Falls for Spring Break?  

I'm sure Gonzaga is so pleased to have John representing the Jesuit tradition of education and intellect.  

[Heme Doc 417]

On 1/22/2022 at 11:42 AM, Sawbonz said:

I haven’t looked closely at this since med school so I may have some of it mixed up. Circulating antibodies are an immediate form of immunity. This is where vaccines have the biggest advantage in a virus naive individual (obviously). First line of defense is in place when the attack occurs. There are of course generalized surveillance mechanisms in place but not the same. The unvaxed virus naive individual’s immune system has to ID the novel pathogen and present it to the cells responsible for producing antibodies, and that lag can let the virus establish a beachhead. Also the generalized inflammatory response that is triggered can cause a lot of collateral damage. Like artillery called in without precise (or flat out wrong) coordinates. You get substances called cytokines that change the local environment to be toxic to the pathogen but also normal tissues. And while these substances are supposed to work locally they can spread to systemic 
 

B and T cell immunity is a rapid ramp up but not immediate. Memory B cells can quickly recognize their target antigens and begin producing antibodies to secrete or incorporate into their plasma membrane and work with other immune cells like killer T cells to destroy the virus particles. Memory T cells recognize an antigen and proliferate. They can destroy the virus particles as well.  Very precise and coordinated attack, with destruction occurring inside the immune cells, so less collateral damage.  This is a huge simplification obviously.
 

Vaccines and infection both use memory b and T cells for lasting immunity. With the new mRNA vaccines I think initially there was a question of to what degree they would  activate those cells but I think they are  finding that they do so effectively. 
 

there is a heme-onc doc around here who can probably do a much better job explaining 
 

edit hey @Heme Doc make sure I didn’t screw this up too badly

You nailed it.

I think of it like a fortress.  Your antibodies are like the castle walls.  But you’ve got T cells behind the walls ready  to blast anything that gets through.  Before getting the vax, you’re completely vulnerable.  The enemy gets in and it takes a while to rally and overtake them (if you can).  Getting the vax is like training your knights behind the wall (T-cells) and building your wall (antibodies) so the enemy can’t get in.  But the enemy might still sneak in, but your knights are there ready to fuck shit up.  Getting boosted is like fortifying the wall and also like giving the knights machine guns instead of swords

[Heme Doc 417]

7 hours ago, Immaculate Vibes said:

Read before negging. Well reasoned and written. 
 

 

I completely agree with this.  I’m as pro vaccine as you’ll find.  But anti vaccine mandates due to many reasons

[Neonmoon 38,130]

10 minutes ago, Heme Doc said:

I completely agree with this.  I’m as pro vaccine as you’ll find.  But anti vaccine mandates due to many reasons

By all means, elaborate 

[DDD Dad 14,571]

1 hour ago, Lobo said:

I thought they were rugby players.  

Did john meet these suddenly dead 150 pro athletes at a different high school in Canada, while at Niagara Falls for Spring Break?  

I'm sure Gonzaga is so pleased to have John representing the Jesuit tradition of education and intellect.  

220, 221. 

[Immaculate Vibes 114]

3 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

Post fringe waco article. Get called out on it. Cry about it. 

Why are you ant-vaccine mandate? Is it just Covid or does this include all vaccines? Do you think every person should be able to decide which vaccines are necessary and which ones are not? 

 

 

I didn’t cry about it. I was laughing at her. 
 

I’m not a fan of mandates generally, but the Covid vaccine is definitely a different animal than other vaccinations. 
 

I started laying out why the Covid vaccine is different but then I realized a lot of the points were in the column I shared. I don’t feel duplicating a lot of it. Feel free to read and challenge the points included there.

 

 

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19,279]

59 minutes ago, Heme Doc said:

I completely agree with this.  I’m as pro vaccine as you’ll find.  But anti vaccine mandates due to many reasons

Vaccine mandates work.  

[Pescado_Rojo 19,558]

1 hour ago, RDCanecutter said:

Brings up the question of if a plane full of soccer players crashed in the Andes, are we sure they didn't just fly past the mountains then acted like they crashed?

They just crop dusted the crash site with magic soccer spray and they all came back to life

[Immaculate Vibes 114]

47 minutes ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

Vaccine mandates work.  

 

“In the heated debate over vaccine mandates, science and logic have often been lost amid politics and fear” 

 

It’s like he’s talking about you PW. Although I’d add spite is part of what drives your positions. 
 

Vaccine mandates work you cry, like the “I’m doing my part” gif. They work forcing people to take a vaccine. But it’s no longer necessary to force outliers to comply and it’s not worth the societal disruption, animus, and distrust it creates even among those already vaccinated. The conditions and data have changed, as laid out in the column.
 

Unfortunately for you, you’re losing the argument. As an example the healthcare workers mandate re-instated but I can tell you at least where I work all hospital systems are just doing a check the box survey about your status. And two of the systems are part of national publicly traded companies. They’re handing out exemptions without questions. Is that because of manpower issues? Partially I’m sure. But I bet the CMOs that sit on the committees addressing national and local policy see the data and understand that the logic behind them no longer holds up. 
 

If mandates are necessary and make sense then Biden should push hard on enforcement of the ones he’s instated and expand requirements further. Boosters work. Mandates work. Let’s mandate boosters. Let’s keep not fully vaccinated from air travel. Go for it. 

Edited January 24, 2022 by Immaculate Vibes

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19,279]

24 minutes ago, Immaculate Vibes said:

 

“In the heated debate over vaccine mandates, science and logic have often been lost amid politics and fear” 

 

It’s like he’s talking about you PW. Although I’d add spite is part of what drives your positions. 
 

Vaccine mandates work you cry, like the “I’m doing my part” gif. They work forcing people to take a vaccine. But it’s no longer necessary to force outliers to comply and it’s not worth the societal disruption, animus, and distrust it creates even among those already vaccinated. The conditions and data have changed, as laid out in the column.
 

Unfortunately for you, you’re losing the argument. As an example the healthcare workers mandate re-instated but I can tell you at least where I work all hospital systems are just doing a check the box survey about your status. And two of the systems are part of national publicly traded companies. They’re handing out exemptions without questions. Is that because of manpower issues? Partially I’m sure. But I bet the CMOs that sit on the committees addressing national and local policy see the data and understand that the logic behind them no longer holds up. 
 

If mandates are necessary and make sense then Biden should push hard on enforcement of the ones he’s instated and expand requirements further. Boosters work. Mandates work. Let’s mandate boosters. Let’s keep not fully vaccinated from air travel. Go for it. 

You keep getting crowdsourced for posting bullshit.  I wonder how long it’ll take this time.  

[Heme Doc 417]

35 minutes ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

Vaccine mandates work.  

What do you mean by “work”?  Do you mean “increase vaccine uptake with the end goal of decreasing death/hospital burden”?  I suppose I’d agree with this.  Although losing some hospital staff due to the mandates exacerbates hospital burden.  

But those people who want vaccinations have already gotten it.  Mandates, at this point, I fear, only serve to harden resolve of those who refuse the vaccine.  

I do not believe mandating injections of current vaccine formulations to enter certain venues, school, or participate in society substantially decreases transmission with our currently circulating variant.  Boosters probably do help with this issue somewhat.  

To me, there’s 2 ethical reasons to mandate a vaccine.

1.  The vaccine protects the individual from falling ill and prevents that person transmitting the disease to those at risk.  Current vaccinations absolutely prevent most death and hospitalizations but clearly do not do a great job of providing sterilizing immunity and protecting those around us from getting COVID.   In short, this argument says, “my vaccine protects you”…this is not the case (unfortunately).  Your vaccine protects you from severe illness/death.  Maybe not a lot more than that.  

2.  Mandating vaccination prevent hospital overload and allows for continuation of normal healthcare delivery (delays in surgery or care due to overburdened hospitals are bad for everyone).  While on the surface, this seems reasonable enough, Ethically, I find this problematic as well.  We do not mandate other medical treatments for this reason (flu or pneumonia vaccinations, for example).  We do not compel people to significantly change behavior when hospitals are at capacity (as often happened in winters even pre-COVID).  We don’t shut down liquor stores, limit driving, or stop other activities that add to hospital burden when they’re already full.  

I hope I’ve been clear in the above.  I always aim for respectful discourse/discussion.  I don’t pretend to have all the answers.  

I find COVID to be much like many cancer problems I deal with.  Complex, often without simple solutions, where intelligent, caring people with the best of intentions can sometimes disagree on the best course of action.

 

 

[Sawbonz 28,081]

3 hours ago, jimmyjazz said:

I have few fucks to give as well, but if the public health policy is targeting a flu-like mortality rate, then we don't get to exclude the unvaccinated, do we?

I don’t know that a flu like mortality rate has ever been a stated goal for opening up. It’s always been a level that doesn’t overwhelm the healthcare system. The omicron spike had 3 times the new cases as the spike a year ago and at least in DFW didn’t cause any pauses in elective cases, at least to my knowledge 

[jimmyjazz 46,972]

Just now, Sawbonz said:

I don’t know that a flu like mortality rate has ever been a stated goal for opening up. It’s always been a level that doesn’t overwhelm the healthcare system. The omicron spike had 3 times the new cases as the spike a year ago and at least in DFW didn’t cause any pauses in elective cases, at least to my knowledge 

I get the observation of hospital load, and what you state isn't too different than what I've seen reported in the press, but there are apparently some regions that are being slammed.

Case counts are primarily a function of measurement and reporting, and not necessarily disease permeation.  

I just think it's premature to speak of "opening up" when we are currently losing more Americans per day than we have, on average, throughout the pandemic.  If messaging is so important, then let's not gloss over that hugely important point.

[Heme Doc 417]

4 minutes ago, Heme Doc said:

What do you mean by “work”?  Do you mean “increase vaccine uptake with the end goal of decreasing death/hospital burden”?  I suppose I’d agree with this.  Although losing some hospital staff due to the mandates exacerbates hospital burden.  

But those people who want vaccinations have already gotten it.  Mandates, at this point, I fear, only serve to harden resolve of those who refuse the vaccine.  

I do not believe mandating injections of current vaccine formulations to enter certain venues, school, or participate in society substantially decreases transmission with our currently circulating variant.  Boosters probably do help with this issue somewhat.  

To me, there’s 2 ethical reasons to mandate a vaccine.

1.  The vaccine protects the individual from falling ill and prevents that person transmitting the disease to those at risk.  Current vaccinations absolutely prevent most death and hospitalizations but clearly do not do a great job of providing sterilizing immunity and protecting those around us from getting COVID.   In short, this argument says, “my vaccine protects you”…this is not the case (unfortunately).  Your vaccine protects you from severe illness/death.  Maybe not a lot more than that.  

2.  Mandating vaccination prevent hospital overload and allows for continuation of normal healthcare delivery (delays in surgery or care due to overburdened hospitals are bad for everyone).  While on the surface, this seems reasonable enough, Ethically, I find this problematic as well.  We do not mandate other medical treatments for this reason (flu or pneumonia vaccinations, for example).  We do not compel people to significantly change behavior when hospitals are at capacity (as often happened in winters even pre-COVID).  We don’t shut down liquor stores, limit driving, or stop other activities that add to hospital burden when they’re already full.  

I hope I’ve been clear in the above.  I always aim for respectful discourse/discussion.  I don’t pretend to have all the answers.  

I find COVID to be much like many cancer problems I deal with.  Complex, often without simple solutions, where intelligent, caring people with the best of intentions can sometimes disagree on the best course of action.

 

 

And I love your posts about NYC.  Makes me want to hop on a plane almost every time

[Heme Doc 417]

2 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

By all means, elaborate 

See my post above replying to PW.  

Did you read the article posted by Immaculate Vibes?  Were there specific things in the article you felt were incorrect?  

Edited January 24, 2022 by Heme Doc

[Heme Doc 417]

6 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

I get the observation of hospital load, and what you state isn't too different than what I've seen reported in the press, but there are apparently some regions that are being slammed.

Case counts are primarily a function of measurement and reporting, and not necessarily disease permeation.  

I just think it's premature to speak of "opening up" when we are currently losing more Americans per day than we have, on average, throughout the pandemic.  If messaging is so important, then let's not gloss over that hugely important point.

It sucks to have so many people still dying.  Omicron is infecting almost everyone who hasn’t been vaxxed/boosted or previously infected.  And the unvaccinated are the ones dying, almost exclusively.  So I think you’ve got a lot of people who are vaccinated saying “fuck those folks who are dying, they could have protected themselves and prevented this, but they didn’t.  Why should I have to limit my activities to protect those assholes who wouldn’t protect themselves”?

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19,279]

16 minutes ago, Heme Doc said:

What do you mean by “work”?  Do you mean “increase vaccine uptake with the end goal of decreasing death/hospital burden”?  I suppose I’d agree with this.  Although losing some hospital staff due to the mandates exacerbates hospital burden.  

But those people who want vaccinations have already gotten it.  Mandates, at this point, I fear, only serve to harden resolve of those who refuse the vaccine.  

I do not believe mandating injections of current vaccine formulations to enter certain venues, school, or participate in society substantially decreases transmission with our currently circulating variant.  Boosters probably do help with this issue somewhat.  

To me, there’s 2 ethical reasons to mandate a vaccine.

1.  The vaccine protects the individual from falling ill and prevents that person transmitting the disease to those at risk.  Current vaccinations absolutely prevent most death and hospitalizations but clearly do not do a great job of providing sterilizing immunity and protecting those around us from getting COVID.   In short, this argument says, “my vaccine protects you”…this is not the case (unfortunately).  Your vaccine protects you from severe illness/death.  Maybe not a lot more than that.  

2.  Mandating vaccination prevent hospital overload and allows for continuation of normal healthcare delivery (delays in surgery or care due to overburdened hospitals are bad for everyone).  While on the surface, this seems reasonable enough, Ethically, I find this problematic as well.  We do not mandate other medical treatments for this reason (flu or pneumonia vaccinations, for example).  We do not compel people to significantly change behavior when hospitals are at capacity (as often happened in winters even pre-COVID).  We don’t shut down liquor stores, limit driving, or stop other activities that add to hospital burden when they’re already full.  

I hope I’ve been clear in the above.  I always aim for respectful discourse/discussion.  I don’t pretend to have all the answers.  

I find COVID to be much like many cancer problems I deal with.  Complex, often without simple solutions, where intelligent, caring people with the best of intentions can sometimes disagree on the best course of action.

 

 

I mean that vaccine mandates have caused more vaccine uptake which has allowed NYC to not get back to the dire days of March/April 2020 from a hospitalization or death perspective even though The case counts are at 400% of any other time during the pandemic.  It has allowed NYC to largely get back to normal.

[Heme Doc 417]

13 minutes ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

I mean that vaccine mandates have caused more vaccine uptake which has allowed NYC to not get back to the dire days of March/April 2020 from a hospitalization or death perspective even though The case counts are at 400% of any other time during the pandemic.  It has allowed NYC to largely get back to normal.

I’ll drink to that!