RIP Black Mamba: Kobe Bryant dead in helicopter crash CONFIRMED

[ChiTownDoc 21326]

Damn, I can't remember something with only sound hitting me like that.  Shit

[LonghornSean 4072]

NBA on TNT crew knocked it out the park but man it was tough to watch. Ugh all this is so damn tragic

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

4 hours ago, George said:

See, this is just insane to me. Why wouldn’t he have retrofitted the thing with new avionics/sensors/etc. you’d think whoever was maintaining the thing would have mentioned availability and it’s not like Kobe couldn’t afford it, especially since he didn’t buy new. 

 

 

Again, many very wealthy people could care less about the age of the aircraft or the toys up front as long as the paint and interior are nice. 

[Nice Guy Eddie 13710]

6 hours ago, Hook1997 said:

Damn they haven’t talked at all since Kobe’s last game??  I would think they would be in the same place atleast once since then.

That was surprising they hadn’t spoken in 3 years but people do get busy in life and just don’t run into each other.

[Lat22 4070]

7 hours ago, hundredTT said:

 Can't imagine all aboards last moments. Chilling. 

Hopefully it was like turning off a light switch.  That impact was abrupt.

[cabowabo 4646]

8 hours ago, George said:

See, this is just insane to me. Why wouldn’t he have retrofitted the thing with new avionics/sensors/etc. you’d think whoever was maintaining the thing would have mentioned availability and it’s not like Kobe couldn’t afford it, especially since he didn’t buy new. 

 

 

Kobe didn’t own the helicopter. 

[NoRagrets 1136]

Why not just go IFR and ascend to a safe altitude above all of the mountains? Disclosure, I’m not a pilot.

Also, why the quick turn and descent? Seems like either disorientation or less likely a possible mechanical problem.

j guess we will know more after investigation.

[Beau Vine 55832]

11 hours ago, Jkwellborn said:

A coworker showed it to me yesterday. I don’t know how he found it or if it was real. But it sorta jived with what I’d heard about it. Pitching everywhere, hit tail rotor first. I’ll see if I can find it.

 

If I can’t, I’ll ask him in the morning where he saw it, but it was probably fake because I find it hard to believe someone hasn’t sold it if they had it.

Jibed.  JIBED!!!

 

For fuck's sake!

[Wally Pryor 5388]

Why did the pilot descend so rapidly?   Still not clear to me. 

Edited January 29, 2020 by Wally Pryor

[ConferenceRoom 6211]

25 minutes ago, NoRagrets said:

Why not just go IFR and ascend to a safe altitude above all of the mountains? Disclosure, I’m not a pilot.

Also, why the quick turn and descent? Seems like either disorientation or less likely a possible mechanical problem.

j guess we will know more after investigation.

The vertigo theory put forward above seemed plausible. 

[Homercles 10206]

25 minutes ago, NoRagrets said:

Why not just go IFR and ascend to a safe altitude above all of the mountains? Disclosure, I’m not a pilot.

Also, why the quick turn and descent? Seems like either disorientation or less likely a possible mechanical problem.

j guess we will know more after investigation.

Been discussed up thread by surly pilots but generally IFR in busy airspace requires a lot more time and distance as ATC has to integrate you into the existing flow, airways and rules with everyone else...the pilot thought he could navigate visually along the highway while managing his own traffic/terrain avoidance.  One of the pilots I follow on YouTube often cancels his IFR when he has the airport in sight so he can visually enter the pattern and land without having to fly the prescribed approach profile that requires a more drawn out process to land.  
 

Of course when it’s socked in, he (Premier1Driver) keeps his IFR alive and stays on instruments.  I think the chopper pilot was trying to keep a schedule and stay out of/below the busy airspace.  The weird part to me is I’d just read a thread on PPrune about Special VFR and had read about it to educate myself as it was something I hadn’t really learned about before...then the next day it’s a huge part of the story in Kobe’s death.  

[SwanderedTalent 5761]

10 hours ago, Pig Bellmont said:

Tell that to South Austin and his mom. This board isn’t super good letting things slide. 

his mom is

[cabowabo 4646]

Been discussed up thread by surly pilots but generally IFR in busy airspace requires a lot more time and distance as ATC has to integrate you into the existing flow, airways and rules with everyone else...the pilot thought he could navigate visually along the highway while managing his own traffic/terrain avoidance.  One of the pilots I follow on YouTube often cancels his IFR when he has the airport in sight so he can visually enter the pattern and land without having to fly the prescribed approach profile that requires a more drawn out process to land.  
 
Of course when it’s socked in, he (Premier1Driver) keeps his IFR alive and stays on instruments.  I think the chopper pilot was trying to keep a schedule and stay out of/below the busy airspace.  The weird part to me is I’d just read a thread on PPrune about Special VFR and had read about it to educate myself as it was something I hadn’t really learned about before...then the next day it’s a huge part of the story in Kobe’s death.  

Getthereitis

[markstanco 12773]

33 minutes ago, cabowabo said:

51 minutes ago, Homercles said:

Been discussed up thread by surly pilots but generally IFR in busy airspace requires a lot more time and distance as ATC has to integrate you into the existing flow, airways and rules with everyone else...the pilot thought he could navigate visually along the highway while managing his own traffic/terrain avoidance.  One of the pilots I follow on YouTube often cancels his IFR when he has the airport in sight so he can visually enter the pattern and land without having to fly the prescribed approach profile that requires a more drawn out process to land.  
 
Of course when it’s socked in, he (Premier1Driver) keeps his IFR alive and stays on instruments.  I think the chopper pilot was trying to keep a schedule and stay out of/below the busy airspace.  The weird part to me is I’d just read a thread on PPrune about Special VFR and had read about it to educate myself as it was something I hadn’t really learned about before...then the next day it’s a huge part of the story in Kobe’s death.  

Read more  

Getthereitis

This. 

I'm not sure how busy that area they were in is, but I dont think it is in class B airspace. Having said that, it can be really busy for flight training since it is (guessing) just outside of B and likely D.  

As far as the quick decent, I have had spatial disorientation once before, and it scared me. It was with an instructor and he was ripping me around with a "hood" on (blocks vision) and I knew in my heart we were holding altitude in a slight right turn. I look up and we were descending 600 feet per minute in a steep left. He pulled power so the rpms never changed. 

[dad 557]

7 minutes ago, markstanco said:

This. 

I'm not sure how busy that area they were in is, but I dont think it is in class B airspace. Having said that, it can be really busy for flight training since it is (guessing) just outside of B and likely D.  

As far as the quick decent, I have had spatial disorientation once before, and it scared me. It was with an instructor and he was ripping me around with a "hood" on (blocks vision) and I knew in my heart we were holding altitude in a slight right turn. I look up and we were descending 600 feet per minute in a steep left. He pulled power so the rpms never changed. 

How did you not feel the change in direction from right to left even if the RPM's never changed? 

[markstanco 12773]

1 minute ago, dad said:

How did you not feel the change in direction from right to left even if the RPM's never changed? 

That's the definition of spatial-D. 

[smuggs 9394]

Bad Luck is my favorite Spatial D song.

[Sbbruin 22084]

1 hour ago, NoRagrets said:

Why not just go IFR and ascend to a safe altitude above all of the mountains? Disclosure, I’m not a pilot.

Also, why the quick turn and descent? Seems like either disorientation or less likely a possible mechanical problem.

j guess we will know more after investigation.

From what I understand you’re not supposed to transit various altitude thresholds as you move into different airspace that could be occupied (I too am not a pilot).

NTSB  said they missed clearing top of the hill by 20-30 ft. 
 

That audio is fucking haunting.

[GhostOfTomJoad 9489]

The audio is dead on with the audio engineer's interview after the accident that was posted several pages before Now This turned this thread upside down. Loud hovering rotor wash, quick acceleration sound, then a sudden thud & silence.

[d2o 1603]

 

[immortal13 4059]

3 minutes ago, d2o said:

 

Look at me! Look at me!!

[Your Mom 4956]

19 minutes ago, dad said:

How did you not feel the change in direction from right to left even if the RPM's never changed? 

If the bank is rolled into slowly enough your inner ear won’t perceive it. That’s when your eyes normally would see it in reference to the horizon, but not in the clouds. You could slowly roll really steep without ever feeling it if it’s a slow change. Then once you check your instruments and make the quick correction back to straight and level that correction is enough for your inner ear to perceive and now that you’re straight and level your sense of balance is 100% convinced you are in a bank in the direction of the correction it felt. The urge to correct that false sense of bank is really tough to resist and demands full trust in the instruments and ignoring your own sense of balance that you’ve used thousands of times per day your whole life.  It’s not an easy skill to master. 
Spatial disorientation also killed JFK Jr. Lost the horizon on a hazy dark night, rolled into a bank not realizing it, starts losing altitude because that’s what happens when the airplane banks, sees the altitude loss on the altimeter (but not the banked turn on the AI) and starts pulling back to correct the altitude loss which only tightens up the turn bank and exacerbates the problem until you’re sideways and have no lift left. 

[ChiTownDoc 21326]

6 hours ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

Again, many very wealthy people could care less about the age of the aircraft or the toys up front as long as the paint and interior are nice. 

Really?  Maybe rich people.  But Kobe was worth half a billion plus - wealthy is different.  Risk mgt teams are a very real thing for UHNW families.  
 

This is more the exception, not the rule.  Boats / planes etc...usually vetted out by experts.  

[Your Mom 4956]

I’m not a helicopter pilot, but I know a few. My understanding is that they hardly ever fly IFR because the nature of the helicopter and it’s ability to hover and fly slowly at low altitude means they just don’t really have to fly IFR most of the time.  Like any skill, disuse causes erosion of the skill. 

[Gene Parmesan 4062]

So was this Bryant's personal helicopter, or was he just part of some sort of commercial service that gives him access to helicopters 24/7?

[HouTex 1913]

2 minutes ago, Your Mom said:

I’m not a helicopter pilot, but I know a few. My understanding is that they hardly ever fly IFR because the nature of the helicopter and it’s ability to hover and fly slowly at low altitude means they just don’t really have to fly IFR most of the time.  Like any skill, disuse causes erosion of the skill. 

And it's odd that at the moment of impact the helo was about at the aircraft's top speed. The pilot either clearly did not know he was in the mountains, or he could not control his aircraft.

[Your Mom 4956]

7 minutes ago, Gene Parmesan said:

So was this Bryant's personal helicopter, or was he just part of some sort of commercial service that gives him access to helicopters 24/7?

Tons of stars fly around in jets they don’t own, chartered by an aircraft management company.  My buddy used to fly a corporate jet and was constantly flying A-list celebrities around the world, places like Ibiza, back-and-forth to Europe all the time etc... he said a lot of them would get chatty and ask him about this job and how he must love going to these places and it must’ve taken him many many years to work his way up to a job like that. They had no idea he was just average joe, fairly inexperienced pilot and that what they thought must’ve been the pinnacle of his career was nothing more than a stepping stone job for a guy trying to get to an airline.  
I would guess in this case it was Kobe’s though since it was painted up with his logo.  

[MNLonghornFUKM 8964]

Thought I read somewhere in the “Kobe & Vanessa agreed to never fly helicopters together” article that this pilot was the only one Kobe would fly with

[d2o 1603]

9 minutes ago, MNLonghornFUKM said:

Thought I read somewhere in the “Kobe & Vanessa agreed to never fly helicopters together” article that this pilot was the only one Kobe would fly with

I read about their "agreement" in the NY Post so I'm not sure how true it is.    The part of about the pilot basically being Kobe's personal pilot is true from what I've read.

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

1 hour ago, ChiTownDoc said:

Really?  Maybe rich people.  But Kobe was worth half a billion plus - wealthy is different.  Risk mgt teams are a very real thing for UHNW families.  
 

This is more the exception, not the rule.  Boats / planes etc...usually vetted out by experts.  

Look, I used to fly folks who had to be worth about $100M just to enter the program. And it went up from there. The planes were lavish in back, but extremely basic in front. A few people wanted to know about it, but most could care less. Did it look good on the ramp, look good on the inside and meet their price expectations? Yes? Then hop in. 

I know lack of price sensitivity and vetting by experts is a thing with some, but it isn’t the norm. Hell, Tiger bought a used NJ’s GV and paid a crew bottom dollar to fly it. Jim Crane, the Houston Astro’s owner, bought a used Citation X with no frills, ran one Captain into the ground driving it for minimal pay and used contract First Officers until he recently upgraded to a Challenger 350. 

A good comparison is for us mere mortals to take a ride in a sedan service/Uber Black.  Do you really care that the Lincoln that pulls up has 200k miles on it and doesn’t have all the bells and whistles that are now available on modern cars? No you don’t. Does it look good inside and out and reliably get your there?  Hop in.

More and more of of the modern aircraft are coming out with Synthetic Vision or FLIR  etc. as standard equipment. Kobe bought a three decade old helicopter lacking modern toys, and had one guy flying it in the weather between terrain.  I’m not throwing shade at him for that as it happens all the time, and people get away with it all the time.  But he was fine with it even with his high net worth.  And no expert vetted it for an “it’s ok” check other than to see if the aircraft was legal, the company providing the pilot had the required certificates and and the pilot himself had the requisite experience.  In other words, it was barely vetted if at all.  

 

Edited January 29, 2020 by Bobby_Batronic

[ChiTownDoc 21326]

1 minute ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

Look, I used to fly folks who had to be worth about $100M just to enter the program. And it went up from there. The planes were lavish in back, but extremely basic in front. A few people wanted to know about it, but most could care less. Did it look good on the ramp, look good on the inside and meet their price expectations? Yes? Then hop in. 

I know lack of price sensitivity and vetting by experts is a thing with some, but it isn’t the norm. Hell, Tiger bought a used NJ’s GV and paid a crew bottom dollar to fly it. Jim Crane, Astro’s owner, bought a used Citation X with no frills, ran one Captain into the ground driving it for minimal pay and used contract First Officers until he recently upgraded to a Challenger 350. 

A good comparison is for us mere mortals to take a ride in a sedan service/Uber Black.  Do you really care that the Lincoln that pulls up has 200k miles on it and doesn’t have all the bells and whistles that are now available on modern cars? No you don’t  does it look good inside and out and reliably get your there?  Hop in.

More and more of of the modern aircraft are coming out with Synthetic Vision or FLIR  etc. as standard equipment. Kobe bought a three decade old helicopter lack modern toys, and had one guy flying it in the weather between terrain.  I’m not throwing shade at him for that as it happens all the time, and people get away with it all the time.  But he was fine with it even with his high net worth.  And no expert vetted it for an “it’s ok” check other than to see if the aircraft was legal, the company providing the pilot had the required certificates and and the pilot himself had the requisite experience.  In other words, it was barely vetted if at all.  

 

Great.  That’s your experience.  I have my own.  Close to some people that do well in our circle. And every time I’m on one of their actual jets - as in not some random bird - and not a used POS.  Ken Griffin, Glazer family, Melmans...maybe you see that type of shit, but I fly private plenty and I haven’t seen that.  Maybe they put their jets out for charter but just hopping in random jets that look good is a no go.  Same with the orthodox guys we do business with in NYC.   Their own newer planes   

I fly commercial because I don’t have an ig that I need to post on like a girl and if I can’t afford a jet I know, I’m not chartering from the million companies out there flying old ass planes.   Living in Chicago I can go direct just about anywhere and sleep like a baby even if I’m stuck in coach.  
 

Now you named people in the sports world   It’s entirely plausible hedge fund / finance guys look at risk much more seriously.  That’s just what I’ve seen   

 

[Sbbruin 22084]

1 hour ago, immortal13 said:

Look at me! Look at me!!

Sorry, but that's just so cynical.  Why can't it just be a sincere gesture from a player on the organization that he played with for his entire career?  

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

2 minutes ago, ChiTownDoc said:

Great.  That’s your experience.  I have my own.  Close to some people that do well in our circle. And every time I’m on one of their actual jets - as in not some random bird - and not a used POS.  Ken Griffin, Glazer family, Melmans...maybe you see that type of shit, but I fly private plenty and I haven’t seen that.  Maybe they put their jets out for charter but just hopping in random jets that look good is a no go.  Same with the orthodox guys we do business with in NYC.   Their own newer planes   

I fly commercial because I don’t have an ig that I need to post on like a girl and if I can’t afford a jet I know, I’m not chartering from the million companies out there flying old ass planes.   Living in Chicago I can go direct just about anywhere and sleep like a baby even if I’m stuck in coach.  
 

Now you named people in the sports world   It’s entirely plausible hedge fund / finance guys look at risk much more seriously.  That’s just what I’ve seen   

 

I’m not talking about one of thousands of small charter operators with planes on certificates, and just hopping in random jets. 

I’m talking about flying planes that have their names or their LLC’s name attached to it. And it’s not just the sports world. I mentioned those names for recognition as most names are public nobodies. I flew plenty of business/wealth managers etc too. They don’t care. I’m not talking about riding private jets on occasion with friends. I’m flew in that world for 11 years. Some took a real interest. Most did not.

The people who roll in their own7X, Challenger, G or Global are by far the exception. Most are doing exactly what Kobe did. 

[ChiTownDoc 21326]

3 minutes ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

I’m not talking about one of thousands of small charter operators with planes on certificates, and just hopping in random jets. 

I’m talking about flying planes that have their names or their LLC’s name attached to it. And it’s not just the sports world. I mentioned those names for recognition as most names are public nobodies. I flew plenty of business/wealth managers etc too. They don’t care. I’m not talking about riding private jets on occasion with friends. I’m flew in that world for 11 years. Some took a real interest. Most did not.

The people who roll in their own7X, Challenger, G or Global are by far the exception. Most are doing exactly what Kobe did. 

Definitely not what I’ve seen. They have a newer mid vs a worn out heavy.  Again you probably have seen more than me - but of the 7-8 I know.  Zero have jets older than 5-6 yrs old.    
 

I do know I see plenty of ig morons who charter dead legs and post pics etc. It’s out there.  Had no clue people who could easily afford a good new jet were doing this shit you’re referencing.  So you’ve opened my eyes there.  

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

9 minutes ago, ChiTownDoc said:

Definitely not what I’ve seen. They have a newer mid vs a worn out heavy.  Again you probably have seen more than me - but of the 7-8 I know.  Zero have jets older than 5-6 yrs old.    
 

I do know I see plenty of ig morons who charter dead legs and post pics etc. It’s out there.  Had no clue people who could easily afford a good new jet were doing this shit you’re referencing.  So you’ve opened my eyes there.  

Yeah, none of our planes were older than 7 years.  The average was 3-5.  I was shocked by a 29 year old helo, but the overall gist is the same.

[ChiTownDoc 21326]

That heli did have a sweet paint job.  Had me fooled.  I’ll stick to American.  

[Sbbruin 22084]

10 minutes ago, ChiTownDoc said:

That heli did have a sweet paint job.  Had me fooled.  I’ll stick to American.  

That pic was wrong.  This was not the copter

This was.  Much more traditional look.  If you care to look at crash debris pics you can confirm:

Although they have the same call letters.  Be weird if they went back to the below pic from the above.  But the copter that crashed was the bottom one.

[G650 14425]

I've seen and been on plenty of antique charters (none helo though). A Lear 35 I've been on crashed in New England about 10 years ago or more, and it was probably 20 years old when I was on it in the early 00's.

[Blotto 23975]

I believe it's the same heli. I read somewhere that the dark paint job was actually a wrap/skin like they do for cars, but that might be bullshit. In any case, I dont think Kobe bought shit. It was purchased by the operator for 500K a few years ago, at an auction from the state of IL.

 

Edit here's where I read about the wrap: https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-01-27/kobe-bryant-helicopter-crash-becomes-focus-of-intense-federal-investigation

Quote

When Bryant retired from the NBA in 2016, he flew out of downtown Los Angeles in the same helicopter, wrapped in a gray-and-black paint scheme with his Mamba emblem on the side, Deetz said.

 

Edited January 29, 2020 by Blotto

[d2o 1603]

1 hour ago, Sbbruin said:

Sorry, but that's just so cynical.  Why can't it just be a sincere gesture from a player on the organization that he played with for his entire career?  

Look at the source

[d2o 1603]

30 minutes ago, Sbbruin said:

That pic was wrong.  This was not the copter

This was.  Much more traditional look.  If you care to look at crash debris pics you can confirm:

Although they have the same call letters.  Be weird if they went back to the below pic from the above.  But the copter that crashed was the bottom one.

That first pic actually looks like it was shopped which would explain it.

[d2o 1603]

4 minutes ago, Blotto said:

I believe it's the same heli. I read somewhere that the dark paint job was actually a wrap/skin like they do for cars, but that might be bullshit. In any case, I dont think Kobe bought shit. It was purchased by the operator for 500K a few years ago, at an auction from the state of IL.

It could have definitely been vinyl as well

[Your Mom 4956]

45 minutes ago, Sbbruin said:

That pic was wrong.  This was not the copter

This was.  Much more traditional look.  If you care to look at crash debris pics you can confirm:

Although they have the same call letters.  Be weird if they went back to the below pic from the above.  But the copter that crashed was the bottom one.

Same helicopter. That N-number is like the VIN of your car. It’s unique and stays with the aircraft. Not sure why the paint changed.  It was bought cheap and was owned and operated by a charter company, not owned by Kobe.  There were several pilots, employees of the charter company, not employed by Kobe, who flew Kobe in that helicopter, not just the one who crashed  

https://heavy.com/sports/2020/01/sikorsky-s-76-helicopter-n72ex-kobe-bryant/

Quote

The helicopter that crashed near Calabasas, California, killing

 NBA legend Kobe Bryant, his 13-year-old daughterand seven other people on January 26, 2020, was a Sikorsky S-76B with tail number N72EX owned by Island Express Holding Corp, according to FAA records. The cause of the crash remains under investigation by the FAA and NTSB. The pilot has been identified as 50-year-old Ara Zobayan.

The helicopter was previously owned by the state of Illinois and was built in 1991. It was the 374th S-76B built by Sikorsky, according to online records. It was not owned by Kobe Bryant. Island Express Holding, a charter company which goes by IEX Holding, is owned by Phillip DiFiore, of Long Beach, and has been in operation since 2011

Edited January 29, 2020 by Your Mom

[Eastwood 4394]

13 minutes ago, d2o said:

It could have definitely been vinyl as well

If he didn't own it and used this helicopter and pilot exclusively, which is what is being indicated, a vinyl wrap makes way more sense than a paint job.

[BurntOrange&White 41663]

That pic was wrong.  This was not the copter

This was.  Much more traditional look.  If you care to look at crash debris pics you can confirm:

Although they have the same call letters.  Be weird if they went back to the below pic from the above.  But the copter that crashed was the bottom one.

Couldn’t it just be a wrap that was on the helicopter that burned off during the accident?

[d2o 1603]

14 minutes ago, Bevo VIII said:

Couldn’t it just be a wrap that was on the helicopter that burned off during the accident?

Nah, it wouldn't burn off.   If it was a wrap, it was taken off and some point.   Wraps only last 3-5 yrs on a car.   I imagine they may last less time on a helo/plane.

 

Edited January 29, 2020 by d2o

[dad 557]

Based on the look of the tail boom it definitely was not wrapped anymore. Also there is video of it hovering in a holding pattern while they received clearance to continue and it was white not black in that grainy video.

Edited January 29, 2020 by dad

[purplepride95 6890]

39 minutes ago, Bevo VIII said:

Couldn’t it just be a wrap that was on the helicopter that burned off during the accident?

This is a picture of it from Nov. Kylie Jenner would rent it to.

 

[ChiTownDoc 21326]

2 hours ago, Sbbruin said:

That pic was wrong.  This was not the copter

This was.  Much more traditional look.  If you care to look at crash debris pics you can confirm:

Although they have the same call letters.  Be weird if they went back to the below pic from the above.  But the copter that crashed was the bottom one.

Wait 2 heli’s or planes can’t have same tail numbers right?  That would lead to all kinds of issues.  (YourMom confirmed it)

Edited January 29, 2020 by ChiTownDoc
Yep. Was answered.

[BTW 370]

Correct, N-numbers are unique like license plates.

I don't understand what was going through the pilots mind, unless there was some sort of mechanical failure.  Having flow in (and had controls of) a couple of different helis in the past, if I flew into IMC, I would just stop moving in any X or Y direction and utilize the Z, direction to either try to get above or below the low clouds.  Also, both models that I've been in have a radar installed on the belly that gives real time AGL (above ground level) numbers.  So even if you were in clouds you could get a sense of how high you were or how far away terrain was.

As an aside, I will be especially grateful when I watch my daughters play basketball Saturday as this sort of thing always works to make me appreciate what I have and re-align my perspective about my "problems"