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Congratulations to the UK...

Armybrat

By Armybrat
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Chopper

Chopper 17236

Posted
Posted
10 minutes ago, TriStone said:

Wow.  All that just from seeing the word "spiked" in a URL.
 


It's clear that someone is.

Huh. Accusing me of reading too much into an idiotic, off-sounding url by reading too much into my reaction. Get the fuck outta here.

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Planet Houston
Planet Houston

It’s a fucking disaster for any Brits living in EU countries. I feel horribly for them. Most of the retirees living on their pension are having to move back to the U.K. because all of a sudden their E

Armybrat
Armybrat

....on their first day of emancipation from the EU. I just drank a toast of Pusser’s Rum (a gift from a Brit friend) in their honor. 🇬🇧

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clapclapclap

"Jerry, Jerry, Jerry, Jerry!" Apparently not.  The card will continue to work for this year while negotiations continue for future years.  And if for some reason they don't reach an agreement, th

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G650

G650 14263

Posted
Posted
18 minutes ago, F250 said:

Most Surly supporters of Brexit: The self determination of an independent populace is paramount.

Icono: The subjugation of citizens by the State is paramount.

Expect nothing less than the best from our dear Icono.

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'stache

'stache 21819

Posted
Posted
27 minutes ago, F250 said:

Most Surly supporters of Brexit: The self determination of an independent populace is paramount.

Icono: The subjugation of citizens by the State is paramount.

I'm trying my hardest to find a way that I read that wrong, but wow. Holy fucking shit. 

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TwiceHorn

TwiceHorn 31495

Posted
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Oh, I can also think that they fell for obvious lies, like the lie that Brexit will free up an additional 350 million pounds per week for NHS.  The layers of folly are manifold.  But what it really gets at is how badly they WANTED to believe the lies -- why is that?  It all comes back to simple human tribalism.  Globally, we're in a spasm of reversion to tribalism - an ethos that has a proven track record of bloody wars, authoritarianism, ethnic purges and genocide.  Which appears to be our nature.

It doesn't appear to be our nature, it IS our nature.  Nurture led to a brief spasm of globalism that simultaneously helped and hurt the tribes.  The tribes can only see the hurt.

The irony of it is that being a bit slower about adopting or yielding to globalism in the past would have tempered the hurt (unemployment) while mostly providing the help (cheaper goods and better standard of living).

Hoist on our own petard.

Edited by TwiceHorn
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Bruno Sardine

Bruno Sardine 147

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Oh, I can also think that they fell for obvious lies, like the lie that Brexit will free up an additional 350 million pounds per week for NHS.  The layers of folly are manifold.  But what it really gets at is how badly they WANTED to believe the lies -- why is that?  It all comes back to simple human tribalism.  Globally, we're in a spasm of reversion to tribalism - an ethos that has a proven track record of bloody wars, authoritarianism, ethnic purges and genocide.  Which appears to be our nature.

Not sure about your stance on immigration, so perhaps I’m being unfair. But I gather from your posts, in which you disparage Brexit supporters and link their opposition to Brexit with their opposition to immigration, that you support EU immigration policy – for example, the decision to welcome millions of non-European immigrants in recent years. But then you declare that human beings are fundamentally tribal and refer to ethnic purges and genocide to make your point. 

Aren’t these positions incompatible?

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Chopper

Chopper 17236

Posted
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, TriStone said:

Wow.  All that just from seeing the word "spiked" in a URL.

It's clear that someone is.

 

1 hour ago, TriStone said:

I'm not accusing you of anything.  Your own words tell the tale.  You read one word in an "off-sounding" URL and it sent you on a hate-filled rant.  You usually only see that in massive homophobes or self-hating closeted gays.

Let's see if you're smart enough to figure out your own hypocrisy.

Also I am going to give you free license to react however you'd like to next time you're having a serious conversation and citing primary documents and multiple respected news organizations, and some dipshit comes at you with a pure opinion article from a site nobody's ever heard of called Spike or what have you. Excuse me for making fun of it, pussy.

Finally I'll point out that in trying to call me out you were such a puss that you didn't even @ me. 

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Brisketexan

Brisketexan 105154

Posted
Posted
8 minutes ago, Bruno Sardine said:

Not sure about your stance on immigration, so perhaps I’m being unfair. But I gather from your posts, in which you disparage Brexit supporters and link their opposition to Brexit with their opposition to immigration, that you support EU immigration policy – for example, the decision to welcome millions of non-European immigrants in recent years. But then you declare that human beings are fundamentally tribal and refer to ethnic purges and genocide to make your point. 

Aren’t these positions incompatible?

I don't think I understand your question.  Seriously, I don't.

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Bruno Sardine

Bruno Sardine 147

Posted
Posted
42 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I don't think I understand your question.  Seriously, I don't.

There are many well-intentioned policies which, regrettably, fail as a result of human nature. I would be onboard with communism, for example, if it weren’t for human nature. Though we should strive to improve the human condition, we should also bear in mind our underlying nature. 

Europe does a poor job integrating immigrants compared to the United States. (An interesting but separate discussion.) It’s become mainstream in Europe for politicians to speak openly of the failure of recent immigrants to adequately integrate. Given your views on human nature, I am surprised you seem not to take into account the destabilizing potential of EU immigration policy (which, again, I assume you support on the basis of other posts).
 

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Chopper

Chopper 17236

Posted
Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, Thetexashammer said:

This is another reason I hate the Brits. They talk like fags and their shit's all retarded.

People on the Continent used to refer to them as mutants.

ps a brit would think you just said they talk like cigarettes

Edited by Chopper
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HouTex

HouTex 1878

Posted
Posted
11 hours ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

Thatcher, like Churchill before her, could foresee the future pretty damn well.

Not sure what this means, but Churchill was an early advocate for a United States of Europe.  He gave a famous speech in 1946 on the topic.  To a great extent, it was meant to avoid future wars and to counter the growing Russian threat--as with the Nazis, he saw coming.  Not sure he would have approved of how it evolved, however.  He was a proponent of the Empire and believed in the superiority of western cultures.  I doubt he would have gone along with the current immigration policies of the EU. 

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Brisketexan

Brisketexan 105154

Posted
Posted
18 hours ago, Bruno Sardine said:

There are many well-intentioned policies which, regrettably, fail as a result of human nature. I would be onboard with communism, for example, if it weren’t for human nature. Though we should strive to improve the human condition, we should also bear in mind our underlying nature. 

Europe does a poor job integrating immigrants compared to the United States. (An interesting but separate discussion.) It’s become mainstream in Europe for politicians to speak openly of the failure of recent immigrants to adequately integrate. Given your views on human nature, I am surprised you seem not to take into account the destabilizing potential of EU immigration policy (which, again, I assume you support on the basis of other posts).
 

You presume that I think that the EU executed its immigration/refugee policy particularly well -- I don't.  On the other hand, it CAN be done -- it has been done in the past.

Immigration is largely a bogeyman issue, that's the biggest problem.  The UK's challenges have next to nothing to do with immigrants, and a lot to do with the same sort of neoliberal failed policies that many western democracies (including ours) have suffered from.  But for most (no question that things have faltered in the past 20+ years) of the post-war period, the approach that seems to piss folks off so much only has a track record of unprecedented prosperity, wage growth for all classes, and the added benefit of 80+ years without a major European war.  I mean, we COULD try to fix the system that worked for quite a while.

But it's a much easier sell to the masses to blame immigrants, which also has the added benefit of whipping up nationalism, which has the added benefit of whipping up loyalty and accusing any opposition of being anti-British (or anti-American, etc.) and not sufficiently patriotic, and how dare you question the Dear Leader.  It's the basic populist authoritarianism script, being followed without many significant edits.  Sure, let's try it again, it's not like it has a proven disastrous track record or anything....

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Bruno Sardine

Bruno Sardine 147

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, G650 said:

Why?

Admittedly not an expert, but I believe the end goal is to eliminate tyranny and exploitation and create a just society. An admirable goal but unrealistic given human nature (someone needs to be in charge to oversee the transition out of capitalism, opening the door to authoritarianism).

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Bruno Sardine

Bruno Sardine 147

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

But it's a much easier sell to the masses to blame immigrants, which also has the added benefit of whipping up nationalism, which has the added benefit of whipping up loyalty and accusing any opposition of being anti-British (or anti-American, etc.) and not sufficiently patriotic, and how dare you question the Dear Leader.  It's the basic populist authoritarianism script, being followed without many significant edits.  Sure, let's try it again, it's not like it has a proven disastrous track record or anything....

Since we’re talking about Brexit, I would argue that Brexit itself is part of the fall-out from the 2015 migration crisis. I agree the far-right is using immigration as a boogeyman.  In Germany, the Christian Democrats are openly grappling with this issue. They want to be compassionate, but at what cost? 

As someone who shares your views on human nature, I am not optimistic. Americans like to flagellate themselves and pretend that Europeans are somehow more progressive when it comes to immigration and minority rights. But this is a false perception. We haven’t passed laws like Denmark, which requires mandatory training in “Danish values” for Muslim schoolchildren. We haven’t passed bans on the construction of minarets like Switzerland or banned burqas like any number of European countries. Unlike Europe, we don’t suffer the problem of “parallel societies.” 

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Bruno Sardine

Bruno Sardine 147

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Posted
2 hours ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Where has actual communism worked in a country ? 

It hasn't worked. As I said, it may be a well-intentioned concept, but given human nature it is a recipe for disaster. Advocates like to assert that it's never been actually implemented. A convenient argument which I personally don't buy.

Communism is the worst. There, done with hijack.

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Brisketexan

Brisketexan 105154

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, Bruno Sardine said:

Americans like to flagellate themselves and pretend that Europeans are somehow more progressive when it comes to immigration and minority rights. But this is a false perception.

Oh, I have no such perception.  Shit, anyone who has watched European soccer matches over the last 40 years (as I have) knows that, man....they know how to do racism WELL.

5 minutes ago, Bruno Sardine said:

Unlike Europe, we don’t suffer the problem of “parallel societies.” 

Sure we have.  I mean, we LITERALLY had parallel societies -- whites-only establishments vs. places where black people could go.  Same with hispanics, and chinese, at various points in time.  And we seem to be making a yeoman's effort to go back to parallel societies, although we can't even settle on where the dividing line should be.  We haven't entirely nailed down who all the "them" are, but they should definitely get fucked, and hard.

At this point, I just want truth in labeling.  Any claims of western nations like ours as a "Shining City on a Hill," or "American Exceptionalism" is bullshit.  We're just tribal assholes, like everyone else.

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Brisketexan

Brisketexan 105154

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

That's why I'm glad I live here where citizens don't have to live like Americans, but can live like any Creed, or religion while they live under the Constitution.

I'm glad that Omar was able to keep her headdress on during House meetings.

....while an entire political party condemns her as "not a real American."  Come on, don't lie to yourself.

The only reason that we haven't banned hijabs and anything else we can think of is because the GOP doesn't have the votes.  Let's stop pretending we're the SLIGHTEST bit better than anyone else.  We're not.

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workswithseed

workswithseed 2112

Posted
Posted
Just now, Brisketexan said:

....while an entire political party condemns her as "not a real American."  Come on, don't lie to yourself.

The only reason that we haven't banned hijabs and anything else we can think of is because the GOP doesn't have the votes.  Let's stop pretending we're the SLIGHTEST bit better than anyone else.  We're not.

If that ever happened, I'd be scared as hell. That's a power to control to control thought/religion. 

She might not be liked, but that would be a bridge too far, especially a politically divisive one of that nature.

I would hope no one ever uses a gun that would be used back at them if they lost it.

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elfenix

elfenix 34304

Posted
Posted
On 2/4/2020 at 5:08 PM, Bruno Sardine said:

Not sure about your stance on immigration, so perhaps I’m being unfair. But I gather from your posts, in which you disparage Brexit supporters and link their opposition to Brexit with their opposition to immigration, that you support EU immigration policy – for example, the decision to welcome millions of non-European immigrants in recent years. But then you declare that human beings are fundamentally tribal and refer to ethnic purges and genocide to make your point. 

Aren’t these positions incompatible?

are you aware that the UK had a schengen waiver?

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Bruno Sardine

Bruno Sardine 147

Posted
Posted
21 minutes ago, elfenix said:

are you aware that the UK had a schengen waiver?

No. And I learned from a previous thread in the CR that I'm out of my element when it comes to British politics. But I do think it's fair to argue - whatever a schengen waiver is - that pundits and politicians within the UK used the migrant crisis on the continent as fuel for their arguments in favor of Brexit. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I'm guessing that's the case. 

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hayden_horn

hayden_horn 11362

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, workswithseed said:

That's why I'm glad I live here where citizens don't have to live like Americans, but can live like any Creed, or religion while they live under the Constitution.

I'm glad that Omar was able to keep her headdress on during House meetings.

i mean this in a friendlyish way, but do you realize how ignorantly you phrased this post? she is living like an american. you are comparing her "headdress" to loving like a foreigner. our country is made up of such "foreigners." i urge you to reread your post from the perspective of a naturalized immigrant, or an american citizen muslim who chooses the hijab. they are no less american than white christian america. 

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Thetexashammer

Thetexashammer 1062

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, hayden_horn said:

i mean this in a friendlyish way, but do you realize how ignorantly you phrased this post? she is living like an american. you are comparing her "headdress" to loving like a foreigner. our country is made up of such "foreigners." i urge you to reread your post from the perspective of a naturalized immigrant, or an american citizen muslim who chooses the hijab. they are no less american than white christian america. 

I mean this in a not very friendlyish way, but do you realize how pretentiously you phrased this post? He is posting like an American. You are comparing his post to a racist. Our country is not made up of such "racists" and he is not one. I urge you to reread his post from the perspective of someone who isn't a pretentious douchebag, or like a normal person who doesn't walk around pretending to be the morality police. You are not morally superior to other posters and your faux superiority is repulsive.

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hayden_horn

hayden_horn 11362

Posted
Posted
47 minutes ago, Thetexashammer said:

I mean this in a not very friendlyish way, but do you realize how pretentiously you phrased this post? He is posting like an American. You are comparing his post to a racist. Our country is not made up of such "racists" and he is not one. I urge you to reread his post from the perspective of someone who isn't a pretentious douchebag, or like a normal person who doesn't walk around pretending to be the morality police. You are not morally superior to other posters and your faux superiority is repulsive.

well, while i have sympathy for @workswithseed, i have none for you.

i'm fully aware of how pretentious i can be. i think you internalized my post in a way that maybe workswithseed will not. i'm simply pointing out that america is a diverse nation, full of all inds of people and that "living like americans" is like living like immigrants in america, because that has largely been our history.  i never called him a racist, or even implied that he is such. i was simply challenging his worldview that being an american is very different than being a muslim who wears a hijab. it's the most american thing. do you disagree?

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Thetexashammer

Thetexashammer 1062

Posted
Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

well, while i have sympathy for @workswithseed, i have none for you.

i'm fully aware of how pretentious i can be. i think you internalized my post in a way that maybe workswithseed will not. i'm simply pointing out that america is a diverse nation, full of all inds of people and that "living like americans" is like living like immigrants in america, because that has largely been our history.  i never called him a racist, or even implied that he is such. i was simply challenging his worldview that being an american is very different than being a muslim who wears a hijab. it's the most american thing. do you disagree?

She wasn't wearing a hijab. I suspect you may not be "fully aware".

Edited by Thetexashammer
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