2020 Dems: Iowa (how it works and what to look for)

[Dropout 355]

2 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

So are we not getting any more Iowa results?

This Iowa caucus is a farce. What a joke. How can any objective observer not see this for what it is? Biden was a mirage. Pete had a chance in Iowa. Coordinates w app makers. Iowa Democrats withhold information. Pete declares victory. Release partial results favorable to Pete. Deliberately trying to stall Bernie’s momentum to no avail.

DNC TTLP

[Biff Tannen 45,750]

Well I think that's unlikely, but ok.

[Brisketexan 105,445]

Just now, David Dennison said:

When you say, "Well-regulated capitalism can function as well or better than any other alternative," are you including mixed economies? Do you consider Scandinavian economies regulated capitalism, or are they something else?

They fall within regulated capitalism.  So long as industriousness and innovation are still rewarded -- which they are in the scandinavian countries -- then they are sufficiently "capitalist."  There's 1,000 different recipes and blends, and a society ought to pick the one that works best for them and their situation.  The nordics seem to have hit a pretty good sweet spot.

[GSU&UT 1,798]

1 minute ago, Biff Tannen said:

Well I think that's unlikely, but ok.

I'm not going to go so far as to say they're trying to intentionally prop-up Pete, but this was posted yesterday and these results still haven't been included in any official count. It's at best gross incompetence that shows a process that needs to be removed entirely.

 

[Dropout 355]

4 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

Well I think that's unlikely, but ok.

How many coincidences do you need Biff?

Edited February 5, 2020 by Dropout
Let’s not forget these ridiculous coin flips. Inexplicable.

[Fozzz 152]

5 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

They fall within regulated capitalism.  So long as industriousness and innovation are still rewarded -- which they are in the scandinavian countries -- then they are sufficiently "capitalist."  There's 1,000 different recipes and blends, and a society ought to pick the one that works best for them and their situation.  The nordics seem to have hit a pretty good sweet spot.

lol so a society where every productive enterprise is worker owned and profit is outlawed would be "capitalist" as long as compensation is tethered to productivity?

[Biff Tannen 45,750]

8 minutes ago, Dropout said:

How many coincidences do you need Biff?

[Brothahorn 10,087]

6 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

I found it funny because it's a wholly meaningless statement. There is no such thing and never will be such thing as capitalism, or socialism, or communism, or any other word we've invented to describe how humans interact with each other, without the human element. 

Of course there is no such interaction without the human element. But when you can move/isolate the worst of the human elements, it runs as planned.

17 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Agreed 100%.  Capitalism is a beast -- when kept appropriately tamed, it can do incredible work.  When unleashed, or even worse, controlled by only a few for selfish ends, it's a gruesome beast.

Also agreed 100%.  And you even said it in another thread, I think -- that communism sounds wonderful, but the problem is it fails to account for the human element.  I agree with that as well -- sounds like paradise on paper, always turns into hell on earth in reality, because humanity and greed.

Shit, maybe my thoughts on communism vs. capitalism are a lot like my thoughts on immigration and border control.  Communism tries to control human nature and greed by effectively banning it -- it's like building a wall.  Human nature will inevitably overcome it, and overwhelm it.  Capitalism (done right)  tries to channel human nature and greed -- allow the best parts to move forward (industriousness, creativity, risk-taking), while having checks on greed run amok, risk-spreading to society as a whole, etc.  Just like a sane immigration policy acknowledges human nature and builds in a workable work-permit system, asylum system, etc.

You don't build a wall against human nature -- you build channels to direct it and exercise some control over it, so as to prevent its most destructive potential.

And b_t, you know that I've said numerous times that I like Bernie well enough -- really, I do.  He's an earnest guy, with many good ideas.   I just like Warren more -- I think she's more realistic, more likely to be able to accomplish more, and is less polarizing.

 

Not me.

Agree as well. I'm sure the original ideals never meant for the estimated millions of deaths that it caused. But then some asshole came along and manipulated the system to fit his greed. 

[David Dennison 18,951]

12 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

They fall within regulated capitalism.  So long as industriousness and innovation are still rewarded -- which they are in the scandinavian countries -- then they are sufficiently "capitalist."  There's 1,000 different recipes and blends, and a society ought to pick the one that works best for them and their situation.  The nordics seem to have hit a pretty good sweet spot.

America might not be as capitalist as I thought.

[bad_teammate 13,225]

I don't think there's a smoke-filled room where these decisions are made. I think the clusterfuck we're watching is a potent stew of incompetence and personal biases, and those two things can be connected. (If you're the type of person who thinks, "Wow! Democracy is going to be made better by corporate buzzwords and innovative tech notions like appifying cacuses! Neato! We're gonna disrupt the old ways!" then you're probably also the type of person who hates Bernie. Dumb and corrupt kind of go hand-in-glove and sometimes corruption is something you fall into inadvertently. I might even argue that that's usually how it happens.)

The Polk results being held? I don't know. I doubt it's the DNC slamming the "MAKE BERNIE LOOK BAD!" button, but I also don't trust that they're being completely fair and transparent. I just want the full results.

I do know that regardless of whatever potential shenanigans are happening, Bernie's team is focused on NH and litigating shenanigans in Iowa right now isn't going to help them win NH.

1 minute ago, Brothahorn said:

Agree as well. I'm sure the original ideals never meant for the estimated millions of deaths that it caused. But then some asshole came along and manipulated the system to fit his greed. 

The specifics of Stalinist execution aren't really meaningful because they're so isolated to the context of that Russian moment. That's only relevant if you are a student or fan of Russian history.

The tenets of the economic philosophy are what matters in a discussion, and I think pro-monopolistic forces have done a fantastic job of conflating "he is critical of capitalism" with "he loves Stalin and wants to smell his moustache".

I don't care about Stalin, but I DO care about Marxist critiques of economic structures.

[Biff Tannen 45,750]

1 minute ago, bad_teammate said:

I do know that regardless of whatever potential shenanigans are happening, Bernie's team is focused on NH and litigating shenanigans in Iowa right now isn't going to help them win NH.

Correct, as is everyone else.  Iowa just pretty much looks like a joke and let's move on.

[softlynow 1,840]

3 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

Correct, as is everyone else.  Iowa just pretty much looks like a joke and let's move on.

Yep. Just fold the whole thing into Nebraska, do the same with North and South Dakota, then give Puerto Rico and DC statehood, and all this silliness will end. Then we''ll have new silliness. 

[bad_teammate 13,225]

OK I listen to Pod Save America and their product lineup is kind of perfect metaphorically for the brains of "OH BOY WOW!" soyface guys who love apps and don't really understand how to just be an adult and just do things.

- Monthly subscription toothbrush refills so you don't have to remember when to change your toothbrush.
- 80%-prepared meals so you can pretend to be an adult who sources food and cooks.
- Insanely expensive speaker systems that get software-bricked and useless for no good reason.

It's the kind of brain that is SO EASY to grift. So easy to sell to. So easy to manipulate.

Can't trust 'em.

[hpslugga 4,062]

22 minutes ago, Brothahorn said:

Of course there is no such interaction without the human element. But when you can move/isolate the worst of the human elements, it runs as planned.

 

Not me.

Agree as well. I'm sure the original ideals never meant for the estimated millions of deaths that it caused. But then some asshole came along and manipulated the system to fit his greed. 

The original ideals meant specifically for the state to be dismantled. Kinda missed the mark on day one...and that’s granting the generous assumption that they weren’t just whoring a word for selfish political benefit (kinda like when republicans yell about fiscal responsibility, capitalism, freedom and conservatism).

Edited February 5, 2020 by hpslugga

[Tuco 5,084]

26 minutes ago, GSU&UT said:

I'm not going to go so far as to say they're trying to intentionally prop-up Pete, but this was posted yesterday and these results still haven't been included in any official count. It's at best gross incompetence that shows a process that needs to be removed entirely.

 

I think we are past the point of plausibility that this is a counting issue.  I think the delays are a negotiating/arguing issue.  My guess is with the confusion on the rules, there was things that happened that caused the remaining sites to provide results based on misinterpretation of the rules.  And now people are arguing about what to do next.  They probably want to keep it quiet to avoid publicizing disunity. That's my guess.  If I am right, then for fucks sakes, Iowa only has 41 delegates out of the 4000 pledged.  A few delegates here or there are meaningless.  But that's the kind of shit that goes on in internal politics. 

[Zonahorn 8,079]

6 minutes ago, Tuco said:

I think we are past the point of plausibility that this is a counting issue.  I think the delays are a negotiating/arguing issue.  My guess is with the confusion on the rules, there was things that happened that caused the remaining sites to provide results based on misinterpretation of the rules.  And now people are arguing about what to do next.  They probably want to keep it quiet to avoid publicizing disunity. That's my guess.  If I am right, then for fucks sakes, Iowa only has 41 delegates out of the 4000 pledged.  A few delegates here or there are meaningless.  But that's the kind of shit that goes on in internal politics. 

This would be my guess too.

[bad_teammate 13,225]

2 minutes ago, Tuco said:

I think we are past the point of plausibility that this is a counting issue.  I think the delays are a negotiating/arguing issue.  My guess is with the confusion on the rules, there was things that happened that caused the remaining sites to provide results based on misinterpretation of the rules.  And now people are arguing about what to do next.  They probably want to keep it quiet to avoid publicizing disunity. That's my guess.  If I am right, then for fucks sakes, Iowa only has 41 delegates out of the 4000 pledged.  A few delegates here or there are meaningless.  But that's the kind of shit that goes on in internal politics. 

Yep yep yep.

Biden's campaign is furious and was (allegedly) threatening lawsuits.
Pete claimed victory and put everyone in an awkward position. (If you're the party you don't want to contradict him without lock-down evidence, because then you're putting your finger on the scale in a way.)
Sanders instituted a shadow accounting system so he's got a set of numbers. (I think all the candidates do, but Sanders is showing his.)

What we see so far...

1) Sanders winning the first round (straight popular vote)
2) Sanders winning the second round (realignment)
3) Pete winning the SDE (the variable that weights different counties differently (pro-rural, anti-urban) to be used when allocating delegates to the national convention)
4) Sanders and Pete tying in actual delegates

It's weird that this is a Pete "win" from the media's perspective when what he is actually ahead is literally a variable in an equation, not votes or delegates.

But... hey... whatever lol

[Bruh Man 3,160]

Your daily reminder that Pete is polling at 1% with African Americans. Any discussion about him being the nominee is a complete waste of time until he addresses this problem.

[Brisketexan 105,445]

50 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

lol so a society where every productive enterprise is worker owned and profit is outlawed would be "capitalist" as long as compensation is tethered to productivity?

Seriously?  You're taking a single-sentence condensed and broad principle (stated in such brevity for the purpose of a message board discussion) and breaking it down as if it were a dissertation?  What pedantic bullshit.  Dude, there are fucking huge books written on the concepts and the intricacies thereof -- I stated a broad principle....under which there are a billion potential details.

You are a shitty troll.  Truly shitty.

[Brisketexan 105,445]

14 minutes ago, Bruh Man said:

Your daily reminder that Pete is polling at 1% with African Americans. Any discussion about him being the nominee is a complete waste of time until he addresses this problem.

Yeah....that's a real black mark for his campaign.

[Longhornfan1024 1,707]

18 minutes ago, Bruh Man said:

Your daily reminder that Pete is polling at 1% with African Americans. Any discussion about him being the nominee is a complete waste of time until he addresses this problem.

Yeah, even if Pete did get the most delegates, I'm going to wait to come to a conclusion until we get to a state where delegates aren't determined by a bunch of white people playing red rover.  

[Alvin89 108]

11 minutes ago, Longhornfan1024 said:

Yeah, even if Pete did get the most delegates, I'm going to wait to come to a conclusion until we get to a state where delegates aren't determined by a bunch of white people playing red rover.  

Ahh yes...Those pesky white folks who voted for...Checks notes.....a black man in 2008 and a Hispanic in 2016.

[Bama Chick 28,596]

Did you seriously just classify Ted Cruz as a “Hispanic man”?

Man, get the fuck outta here.

[Brisketexan 105,445]

2 minutes ago, Bama Chick said:

Did you seriously just classify Ted Cruz as a “Hispanic man”?

Man, get the fuck outta here.

Ted Cruz is about as hispanic as a hot dish covered in Miracle Whip.

[horn4life 3,784]

Ted Cruz is hispanic, it's the man part that is in dispute.  

[Rougarou 594]

Beto is more hispanic than Cruz! I think Latinx people would freak out over that, but that's the perceptions from the white people in the South.

[Alvin89 108]

8 minutes ago, Bama Chick said:

Did you seriously just classify Ted Cruz as a “Hispanic man”?

Man, get the fuck outta here.

What is Ted Cruz if he is not hispanic? I mean, I know he's not a rich white guy named Beto but my goodness.

[GSU&UT 1,798]

Ted Cruz is hispanic, not sure how that's debatable. He may be fairly white skinned but his dad is from Cuba.

[Brisketexan 105,445]

He's a Canadian vulvarine.

[Goredho 17,423]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

That's why the foundation of ALL of them has to be the rule of law, and processes and institutions that guarantee that it's upheld.  It's my pet issue, because it's the foundational one.  When you allow those in power to re-write the rules so that the rule of law doesn't apply to them, the system breaks down.  So, we can't allow that.  And to the extent that they've done so, we need to wrest that power back.

This.  This.  This.  This.  This.

Any system without enforced rules and guardrails is destined to be perverted.  What’s so disingenuous about conservatives is that they want the benefit of the doubt of a benevolent human nature for themselves while assuming the worst of human nature in everyone and everything else.  Wild West for me, Russian gulag for you.

Give us a tax break, you can trust that the windfall won’t pool with us, it will trickle down to everyone else.  Asylum seekers are bad hombres here to sell drugs, steal your jobs and rape your daughters.  You can trust Donald Trump to rig elections in the country’s best interests.  The deep state has been ruining the country and must be dismantled!

Bullshit.  Nothing should be fucking trusted.  Everyone and everything should have to face scrutiny at any time and be able to stand up against it.  That is the only way to ensure whatever system is in place is functioning for the greater good.

The current party in power avoiding public scrutiny at all costs should be all Americans need to know to make their voting decisions this fall.

[henrygandorf 29,197]

58 minutes ago, Bruh Man said:

Your daily reminder that Pete is polling at 1% with African Americans. Any discussion about him being the nominee is a complete waste of time until he addresses this problem.

thanks, dad.

[Longhornfan1024 1,707]

26 minutes ago, Alvin89 said:

Ahh yes...Those pesky white folks who voted for...Checks notes.....a black man in 2008 and a Hispanic in 2016.

Don't be so sensitive, snowflake.  

[Alvin89 108]

59 minutes ago, Bruh Man said:

Your daily reminder that Pete is polling at 1% with African Americans. Any discussion about him being the nominee is a complete waste of time until he addresses this problem.

What is the consensus on why Pete is struggling with black voters?

[Brisketexan 105,445]

Just now, Alvin89 said:

What is the consensus on why Pete is struggling with black voters?

Dude... have you seen and listened to the guy?  Everything about him screams "I put raisins in potato salad."

[Bama Chick 28,596]

What is Ted Cruz if he is not hispanic? I mean, I know he's not a rich white guy named Beto but my goodness.

He’s half Irish, half Cuban and born in Canada.

My best friend growing up was from Cuba and if y’all want to see some pissed off Cubans, refer to them as Hispanic or Latino. They consider themselves Cuban, full stop.

The census may classify those of Cuban descent as Hispanic but the historical racial make up of Cuba is much more diverse and unique than people realize.

And the point made was that Iowans were somehow the picture of diversity because a half Irish/half Cuban Canadian born white guy won the 2016 caucus.

Dude can’t even speak Spanish FFS.

Iowa Republicans didn’t take into account Cruz being Hispanic. Cruz doesn’t even own being Cuban. Hence his transformation from Rafael to Ted.

Iowans voted for the white bible banger from Texas.

[FORTY NINE TO ZERO 2,652]

I like seeing random people trying to explain that someone who’s dad is from Cuba isn’t of Cuban descent. 

Edited February 5, 2020 by Xian
Stupid autocorrect

[Alvin89 108]

7 minutes ago, Bama Chick said:

 

He’s half Irish, half Cuban and born in Canada.

My best friend growing up was from Cuba and if y’all want to see some pissed off Cubans, refer to them as Hispanic or Latino. They consider themselves Cuban, full stop.

The census may classify those of Cuban descent as Hispanic but the historical racial make up of Cuba is much more diverse and unique than people realize.

And the point made was that Iowans were somehow the picture of diversity because a half Irish/half Cuban Canadian born white guy won the 2016 caucus.

Dude can’t even speak Spanish FFS.

Iowa Republicans didn’t take into account Cruz being Hispanic. Cruz doesn’t even own being Cuban. Hence his transformation from Rafael to Ted.

Iowans voted for the white bible banger from Texas.

 He's half Cuban, it doesn't matter where he was born and it doesn't matter what your friends says. President Obama's mother is white...By your standards he wouldn't also be African.

[David Dennison 18,951]

14 minutes ago, Bama Chick said:

 

He’s half Irish, half Cuban and born in Canada.

My best friend growing up was from Cuba and if y’all want to see some pissed off Cubans, refer to them as Hispanic or Latino. They consider themselves Cuban, full stop.

The census may classify those of Cuban descent as Hispanic but the historical racial make up of Cuba is much more diverse and unique than people realize.

And the point made was that Iowans were somehow the picture of diversity because a half Irish/half Cuban Canadian born white guy won the 2016 caucus.

Dude can’t even speak Spanish FFS.

Iowa Republicans didn’t take into account Cruz being Hispanic. Cruz doesn’t even own being Cuban. Hence his transformation from Rafael to Ted.

Iowans voted for the white bible banger from Texas.

 

It's almost like there is a political advantage to being white in the Republican Party.

 

[TwiceHorn 31,566]

4 hours ago, washparkhorn said:

True - but isn't Biden Bankruptcy Reform law the reason bankruptcy became so difficult to obtain - even for those who are truly broken?

Warren and he fought bitterly over the harsh Biden bill. What she wrong to fight back against his legislation? I think Warren was spot on back then. 

Im not defending BAPCA, it was an horrible piece of corporate welfare although I still don't understand what they really got out of it because the large majority of bankruptcy filers, Chapter 7 or 13, and the huge number of people who are similarly situated but never file bankruptcy, don't pay their bills, period. it's a blood/rock situation.  Making it harder or easier to file isn't going to substantially increase collection rates.  What it might do, though, is let banks/lenders sell debt slightly higher if the possibility of bankruptcy is reduced.  So there might be that "penny-stealing criminal man" aspect to it.

Nor am I saying healthcare costs are not an issue.  A great big fat issue.

Warren's original study of bankruptcy filers noted that many were precipitated by health problems that curtailed earning capacity, a morally neutral, even sympathetic, ground for filing.  After that, the statistics got kind of perverted in a way that's not factually very supportive of healthcare reform.  That's all.

I tend to dislike it when false premises are used to support the existence of a real problem for which there is ample evidence that isn't manipulated.

[Alvin89 108]

4 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

It's almost like there is a political advantage to being white in the Republican Party.

 

Let's go over the non white candidates the Democrats have nominated again..........

[bad_teammate 13,225]

The downfall of Symone Sanders has been a quietly riveting storyline for me this entire season.

 

[Johnny Sack 8,397]

27 minutes ago, Alvin89 said:

What is the consensus on why Pete is struggling with black voters?

For the same reason Prop 8 passed in liberal California.

[Alvin89 108]

5 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

For the same reason Prop 8 passed in liberal California.

Exactly

[workswithseed 2,119]

54 minutes ago, Rougarou said:

Beto is more hispanic than Cruz! I think Latinx people would freak out over that, but that's the perceptions from the white people in the South.

I'm gonna ask how many people who are Latinos will say they use Latinx.

Edited February 5, 2020 by workswithseed

[Brothahorn 10,087]

Pete's bigger problem might be a religious one

 

 

[Js1 85,603]

 

[Longhornfan1024 1,707]

Man, alvin sure did get pissy because I implied that a 90+% white Iowa that uses a fucked up, archaic system of determining delegates may not be a good representation of how more diverse states may vote in true primaries.  It's almost like he's thin-skinned and was just looking for something to offend him.  

[wildcat09 29,423]

4 minutes ago, Brothahorn said:

Pete's bigger problem might be a religious one

 

 

People are fuckin weird. How on earth can you be politically involved enough to participate in a caucus for a party's presidential nominee and not even know the most well-known fact about the person you choose to support?

[wildcat09 29,423]

1 minute ago, Longhornfan1024 said:

Man, alvin sure did get pissy because I implied that a 90+% white Iowa that uses a fucked up, archaic system of determining delegates may not be a good representation of how more diverse states may vote in true primaries.  It's almost like he's thin-skinned and was just looking for something to offend him.  

He's got some real strong "NOT ALL WYPIPO, ANTI-RACISTS ARE THE REAL RACISTS" energy.

[FORTY NINE TO ZERO 2,652]

7 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

I'm gonna ask how many people who are Latinos will say they use Latinx.

Latinx makes my Cuban refugee wife’s head explode.   She describes it as west coast/gringo language appropriation. 
 

I use it when I am in a devious mood.