FBI vs. NCAA Coaches

[Beau Vine 54297]

But but but... KU was the victim!!!!

[Captain Obvious 524]

Well, we're about 25% there.  Let's see the NCAA stick to its guns, not let another national power get away with a BS appeal, and drop the hammer a la USC.

[Dbeasy 15074]

But but but... KU was the victim!!!!

No shit. The Kansas rubes/homers on here misinterpreting facts thru their blue colored glasses was laughable.

[Beau Vine 54297]

26 minutes ago, Dbeasy said:

 

No shit. The Kansas rubes/homers on here misinterpreting facts thru their blue colored glasses was laughable.

 

Jayhawk will be along shortly to tell us that this news is a good sign for KU, because it means that the NCAA is cooperating with KU's internal investigation.

[Jhawk 1075]

4 hours ago, Dbeasy said:

 

No shit. The Kansas rubes/homers on here misinterpreting facts thru their blue colored glasses was laughable.

 

Literally the indictments said KU was a victim. That is fact. 

What is also fact is that I’ve said this is the meteor that destroys us. Supposedly self has offered up a resignation.  He is apparently unhappy with how the new AD, Jeff Long, handled the de Sousa situation believing that “hypothetically” naming the adidas guy a booster wasn’t worth getting De Sousa eligible. Looks like lack of control on the coach and playing an ineligible player from what I’m reading. Pull down the last final 4 and self suspended at the least. 

[jeevsie 3737]

Man, that makes me sad.

Spoiler

 

[Bartles 769]

I'd be shocked if Self leaves. Maybe asst coach Townsend gets sacrificed before the season as a compliance gesture. But no reason not to make an all-out run for the trophy while everything unfolds with the case. Us against the world motivation. Loaded roster this year, Final Four at the Alamodome where they won it last.

[Pancho 44876]

Poor God’s Gift...

[hookemATL 11801]

14 hours ago, Jhawk said:

Literally the indictments said KU was a victim. That is fact. 

What is also fact is that I’ve said this is the meteor that destroys us. Supposedly self has offered up a resignation.  He is apparently unhappy with how the new AD, Jeff Long, handled the de Sousa situation believing that “hypothetically” naming the adidas guy a booster wasn’t worth getting De Sousa eligible. Looks like lack of control on the coach and playing an ineligible player from what I’m reading. Pull down the last final 4 and self suspended at the least. 

Aw sad. 

[Mitch Cumsteen 18550]

T.J. Gassnola, Silvio De Sousa, Fenny Falmagne. The allegations may be real, but the names definitely sound made up.

 

[Jhawk 1075]

15 minutes ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

T.J. Gassnola, Silvio De Sousa, Fenny Falmagne. The allegations may be real, but the names definitely sound made up.

 

Sounds like an episode of knight rider or something. 

[texasstrong12 4668]

This wins the internet 

 

[Uncle Nate 2097]

https://sports.yahoo.com/sources-kansas-basketball-charged-with-multiple-level-1-violations-including-lack-of-institutional-control-210015300.html

I have to laugh at the football allegation part. Clearly the extra coach at practice didn’t help any. 

[Jhawk 1075]

Haha... And people on the football board want us to pay beaty $3M.  He cheated too.  Allegedly, the football charges are what put the icing on the cake for LOIC.

As far as basketball, here we go.  Basically nothing to the story but we'll see in the next 48 hours what the allegations actually are.  I'm confident we'll have a response, but my confidence in Jeff Long is wavering.  He seems to be the kind of guy who says "let's work with the NCAA to get this done and just move forward" when we have seen that if you work with the NCAA at all you get smoked and when you stonewall them you delay things for years and then they are dropped.

It'll be interesting to see what route we take.  I can tell you right now that I don't see any chance in hell that Bill Self is going down without a massive fight and that's with the backing of Long or without it.  Long will be gone FAR before Self will be, especially if the fans have anything to say about it.

Edited September 23, 2019 by Jhawk

[seven 1367]

Hell of a way to treat the victims 

[Jhawk 1075]

Should also add that this is going to be about as drawn out at the UNC classes scandal.  Not a chance in hell we respond before necessary, then the NCAA will be slow, then we will not negotiate and/or appeal everything.  We probably won't even have a hearing until after the 2020 tournament.  Depending on the severity of the penalties, I can also see this entering into a legal battle.

[maninblack 7974]

40 minutes ago, Uncle Nate said:

https://sports.yahoo.com/sources-kansas-basketball-charged-with-multiple-level-1-violations-including-lack-of-institutional-control-210015300.html

I have to laugh at the football allegation part. Clearly the extra coach at practice didn’t help any. 

Stick a fork in him

[Jhawk 1075]

11 minutes ago, seven said:

Hell of a way to treat the victims 

What do you recommend KU do?

With preston, we could vacate every game he played in, which would be zero games.  We held him out the minute we "heard" of allegations of payment.  Same with De Sousa.  De Sousa was then cleared by an appeal committee because they concluded that the NCAA didn't have shit for a case against him.  To further fuck it up, the NCAA held the kid hostage unless KU would call Adidas a booster for the school so they could penalize the kid for taking money from a booster.

KU is absolutely guilty of getting busted with pay for play.  No doubt about it.  However, the NCAA has made a bunch of missteps and KU actually did a great job of covering themselves on the court.  The texts between Gassnola and KU coaches are absolutely idiotic but it is hard to imagine that you can stick bill self for massive penalties directly if all he has said is "we need top players".  I see Townsend going down as the sacrificial lamb, a potential vacation of the final four and maybe a lost scholarship or two. I don't see a chance in hell that Bill Self is directly implicated with anything more than failure to promote an environment of compliance.  The NCAA might try to stick him, but it will be so shakey that it won't end up being a Bruce Pearl or Sean Miller-like incident.

Edited September 23, 2019 by Jhawk

[seven 1367]

Poor kansas just got swindled by Adidas

[Chad 1728]

KU should hire Kelvin Sampson to clean their program up.

[Bartles 769]

Don't forget Larry Brown is available

The texts may not be legal trouble but common sense says they are enough for the NCAA to extract some pain on KU. Logical conclusion is fire Townsend now, push for NCAA title while case plays out, Self takes NBA job in summer 2020 and new coach gets a stress free year to reload the program with maybe a couple scholarship losses.

[Jhawk 1075]

7 minutes ago, Bartles said:

Don't forget Larry Brown is available

The texts may not be legal trouble but common sense says they are enough for the NCAA to extract some pain on KU. Logical conclusion is fire Townsend now, push for NCAA title while case plays out, Self takes NBA job in summer 2020 and new coach gets a stress free year to reload the program with maybe a couple scholarship losses.

Haha.. Self had a very defiant interview this summer.  Basically went Wolf of Wallstreet with "I ain't Fucking Leaving".  The KC Star, which is a Mizzou homer paper for some reason, kept putting stories out that he was going to the bulls because he knew the clock was ticking with the NCAA.  Here is an excerpt from the article where they finally pissed him off enough to make a statement:

Quote

“The Bulls thing is as far-fetched ...” he told the Star on Monday. “I don’t know where that came from. I’ve never talked to anybody from the Bulls about any employment opportunities. They have a coach and I’m not a candidate for that position and will not be.”

 

The next question, then: Are you 100 percent sure you’ll be at Kansas next season?

“I don’t think you can ever say that, because if they decide to go a different direction I guess I won’t be,” Self said. “So I can’t say 100 percent. But here’s what I can say. I’m certainly not at all motivated to be anywhere else than right here, especially during these times.”

By “these times,” he means the NCAA’s pending investigation related to a federal probe into corruption in college basketball recruiting.

“I wouldn’t run from that at all,” he said. “Not at all. And I look forward to visiting (with the NCAA) and certainly the conclusion (of the investigation), and seeing it through. You can quote that.”

This has been a rough season at KU. The 14-year conference championship streak ended, Udoka Azubuike suffered a season-ending injury, Silvio De Sousa was suspended by the NCAA, and Lagerald Vick left the team in February to address personal matters.

But when Self answered the phone on Monday, he seemed eager to not just shoot down the Bulls rumor but to quiet any other potential talk of an NBA job or the NCAA investigation driving him out.

“My motivation is as strong as ever to be the Kansas coach, to further this program, and to see the situation with the NCAA through,” Self said. “Totally through. Never say never, because you don’t know how both parties may feel, but that is my stance and I look forward to being here for a long time.

“I want to add something else, too. I said years ago that I didn’t know if I wanted to coach forever. But this past year has motivated me to remain in this business for a long time. I want it on record that I want to coach for a long time.”
 

Sucks if we lose Townsend though.  He was definitely a top 5 bag man in the country.  He obviously got sloppy.  I hope Self can manage to keep him but I don't see a chance in hell that he can without having the NCAA in our ass every year.  What good is a bag man that can't be a bag man?  We know he isn't some amazing coach.

Edited September 23, 2019 by Jhawk

[Bartles 769]

Ideal bagman doesn't even go to the games or have any interaction at all with the head coach. But I know what you mean. Someone needs to point the bagman in the right direction and arrange for him to get the money to hand out, which was probably Townsend's thing.

[Jhawk 1075]

I know that "UNC/Duke/UK cheats so why aren't they being punished" isn't a defense and it pisses me off to no end that those types of posts are 50% of the convo on KU boards, but damn they are a lot tighter with their efforts than we are.  Supposedly we left Nike because we wanted to differentiate from those 3 schools, which to me means that we weren't the Nike flagship so we weren't going to get the top players under their brand.  Nike probably doesn't even talk to people at Duke/UNC/UK though.  I'm guessing they just have someone follow the flight logs of the team plane and they send a rep out to the game the coach goes to and they start making offers to players.  My hunch is that KU was effectively teaching Adidas the game and with a little bad luck (this all stems from a financial advisor getting popped for a non-related crime and rolling on Dawkins because he wanted a lighter sentence) we are in the spot we are in.  The second unlucky thing is that the adidas trial was before the nike trial.  All of our dirty laundry gets out and then the nike guys all plead out so no evidence is ever seen.  Switch the trials and it could be nike schools getting notice and KU could be cleaning house with recruiting right now.

But here we are.  This story hasn't even begun to start.  Should be an interesting year, would be awesome to see KU win it all just to spit in the face of the NCAA.  I doubt we'll get many calls come tourney time.

[Captain Obvious 524]

1 hour ago, Jhawk said:

I know that "UNC/Duke/UK cheats so why aren't they being punished" isn't a defense and it pisses me off to no end that those types of posts are 50% of the convo on KU boards, but damn they are a lot tighter with their efforts than we are.  Supposedly we left Nike because we wanted to differentiate from those 3 schools, which to me means that we weren't the Nike flagship so we weren't going to get the top players under their brand.  Nike probably doesn't even talk to people at Duke/UNC/UK though.  I'm guessing they just have someone follow the flight logs of the team plane and they send a rep out to the game the coach goes to and they start making offers to players.  My hunch is that KU was effectively teaching Adidas the game and with a little bad luck (this all stems from a financial advisor getting popped for a non-related crime and rolling on Dawkins because he wanted a lighter sentence) we are in the spot we are in.  The second unlucky thing is that the adidas trial was before the nike trial.  All of our dirty laundry gets out and then the nike guys all plead out so no evidence is ever seen.  Switch the trials and it could be nike schools getting notice and KU could be cleaning house with recruiting right now.

But here we are.  This story hasn't even begun to start.  Should be an interesting year, would be awesome to see KU win it all just to spit in the face of the NCAA.  I doubt we'll get many calls come tourney time.

So you're saying Kansas should have learned its lesson from Grant Hill?  Stick with the company that knows what it's doing. 

Edited September 24, 2019 by Captain Obvious

[formermav43 4606]

3 hours ago, Jhawk said:

Haha... And people on the football board want us to pay beaty $3M.  He cheated too.  Allegedly, the football charges are what put the icing on the cake for LOIC.

As far as basketball, here we go.  Basically nothing to the story but we'll see in the next 48 hours what the allegations actually are.  I'm confident we'll have a response, but my confidence in Jeff Long is wavering.  He seems to be the kind of guy who says "let's work with the NCAA to get this done and just move forward" when we have seen that if you work with the NCAA at all you get smoked and when you stonewall them you delay things for years and then they are dropped.

It'll be interesting to see what route we take.  I can tell you right now that I don't see any chance in hell that Bill Self is going down without a massive fight and that's with the backing of Long or without it.  Long will be gone FAR before Self will be, especially if the fans have anything to say about it.

Basketball players were paid. Football had one extra “coach” in terms of a video analyst meeting a handful of times with QBs. Totally on the same level.

[Jhawk 1075]

11 minutes ago, formermav43 said:

Basketball players were paid. Football had one extra “coach” in terms of a video analyst meeting a handful of times with QBs. Totally on the same level.

Where did I say they were equal?  Beaty said he should get all of his money because he left the program and there were no violations.  KU is now getting hit for LOIC which football is contributing to.  Beaty clearly left the program with violations by NCAA standards.  His contract specifically says any violations and we don't have to pay his contract.

[formermav43 4606]

How can you justify not paying him over one petty violation and keep Self? 

[Jhawk 1075]

That's not for me to justify.  Looking back, we should have paid him.  We self reported his violations so we wouldn't have to.  Now the NCAA is saying we have a systemic problem across sports.  Not worth the money.

[Jhawk 1075]

Allegation #1
- Adidas paying Billy Preston's mom.

Allegation #2
- Adidas gear to the Angolan national team.
- 2.5k for SDS online class.
- 20k to get out from under Maryland money.

Allegation #3
- Gassnola's failed attempt to get Ayton for 15k.
- Introduction of Adidas' Dan Cutler. Promised to cover travel expenses for recruit (Ayton?). Self contacted mom 3 weeks later.
- Merle Code gave recruiting info prior to in-home with recruit (Ayton?)

Allegation #4
- Referring to Allegations #1-3, Self did not promote an atmosphere of compliance.
- Adidas reps at Late Night.

Allegation #5
- Referring to Allegations #1-3, institution failed exercise institutional control.
- KU compliance raised red flags around Gassnola. Institution did not provide him rules education.
- Billy Preston's car and lack of registering with compliance.
- Certifying Billy Preston initially as eligible. Lot of redacting, but appears something around allowing him to be with team while knowing he was ineligible.

[VolenteHawk 495]

2 hours ago, Bartles said:

Don't forget Larry Brown is available

The texts may not be legal trouble but common sense says they are enough for the NCAA to extract some pain on KU. Logical conclusion is fire Townsend now, push for NCAA title while case plays out, Self takes NBA job in summer 2020 and new coach gets a stress free year to reload the program with maybe a couple scholarship losses.

I don’t think so. Missouri cooperated with the NCAA and got hammered. I think you tell them to fuck off, their allegation are garbage, and dig in for a long battle. LOIC and the Self stuff will be pretty hard to make stick with only what came up in the Gassnola trial, him claiming coaches didn’t know under oath, and KU having a history of self reporting violations and sitting guys with eligibility question marks (of which they’ve had too many). So make them prove it, without the FBI’s subpoena power.

KU isn’t clean, nobody getting players worth a damn is clean, but this NOA makes me glad the NCAA tried to shoot the moon to make an example...much larger attack surface to fight against. If they make Billy Preston a centerpiece, the NCAA is as incompetent as we’ve always suspected.

 

[Machinator 32099]

[Machinator 32099]

[Jhawk 1075]

Where we are going to get popped is with the NCAA saying the adidas guys were boosters.  If we can prove they aren't then all of these allegations become level 2 at worst.  We definitely won't win that in the hearing but we might have a chance in appeals where the NCAA isn't in charge.

[El Diablo 4232]

KU was just playing within the unwritten rules, right? HC has enough layers of plausible deniability built into the system that he can remain clean and continue on with his career. The institution is complicit and reaps the rewards of the success. Rules and laws are for the suckers and fuck that, we want BANNERS.

[Dbeasy 15074]

Where we are going to get popped is with the NCAA saying the adidas guys were boosters.  If we can prove they aren't then all of these allegations become level 2 at worst.  We definitely won't win that in the hearing but we might have a chance in appeals where the NCAA isn't in charge.

It’s fabulous that you care more about skirting responsibility for your school’s despicable behavior than actually cleaning up your school’s cesspool. But then, that’s America today in general.

[Goodman 3273]

Getting their s&c coach makes a lot more sense now.

[texasstrong12 4668]

12 hours ago, Jhawk said:

Haha... And people on the football board want us to pay beaty $3M.  He cheated too.  Allegedly, the football charges are what put the icing on the cake for LOIC.

As far as basketball, here we go.  Basically nothing to the story but we'll see in the next 48 hours what the allegations actually are.  I'm confident we'll have a response, but my confidence in Jeff Long is wavering.  He seems to be the kind of guy who says "let's work with the NCAA to get this done and just move forward" when we have seen that if you work with the NCAA at all you get smoked and when you stonewall them you delay things for years and then they are dropped.

It'll be interesting to see what route we take.  I can tell you right now that I don't see any chance in hell that Bill Self is going down without a massive fight and that's with the backing of Long or without it.  Long will be gone FAR before Self will be, especially if the fans have anything to say about it.

 

Edited September 24, 2019 by texasstrong12

[Bevo 13589]

10 hours ago, Jhawk said:

That's not for me to justify.  Looking back, we should have paid him.  We self reported his violations so we wouldn't have to.  Now the NCAA is saying we have a systemic problem across sports.  Not worth the money.

You are only looking at what it cost Kansas in terms of money to Beaty and penalties to the university. It is also worth noting that Kansas treated Beaty like shit.

[Bartles 769]

Appreciate Self and Long saying "respect the process" and "confident in our process" instead of Trust the Process

[Jhawk 1075]

9 hours ago, Dbeasy said:

 

It’s fabulous that you care more about skirting responsibility for your school’s despicable behavior than actually cleaning up your school’s cesspool. But then, that’s America today in general.

 

What do you want me to say? If Herman won you a championship and then was going to be brought down by two players and a shoe rep what would you say? Especially if the issue would turn you into a middling team for 10 years? I’d rather become the evil team than become smu. Just the way it is. 

[Iceman 2722]

“I don’t see the NCAA backing off these allegations.”

 

How in the fuck would someone have any substance upon which to found that opinion?

Edited September 24, 2019 by Iceman

[gecko 1104]

You guys need to go easy on the next Texas basketball coach...

[TreatyOak 16370]

15 hours ago, Jhawk said:

What do you recommend KU do?

With preston, we could vacate every game he played in, which would be zero games.  We held him out the minute we "heard" of allegations of payment.  Same with De Sousa.  De Sousa was then cleared by an appeal committee because they concluded that the NCAA didn't have shit for a case against him.  To further fuck it up, the NCAA held the kid hostage unless KU would call Adidas a booster for the school so they could penalize the kid for taking money from a booster.

KU is absolutely guilty of getting busted with pay for play.  No doubt about it.  However, the NCAA has made a bunch of missteps and KU actually did a great job of covering themselves on the court.  The texts between Gassnola and KU coaches are absolutely idiotic but it is hard to imagine that you can stick bill self for massive penalties directly if all he has said is "we need top players".  I see Townsend going down as the sacrificial lamb, a potential vacation of the final four and maybe a lost scholarship or two. I don't see a chance in hell that Bill Self is directly implicated with anything more than failure to promote an environment of compliance.  The NCAA might try to stick him, but it will be so shakey that it won't end up being a Bruce Pearl or Sean Miller-like incident.

[Jhawk 1075]

23 minutes ago, Iceman said:

“I don’t see the NCAA backing off these allegations.”

 

How in the fuck would someone have any substance upon which to found that opinion?

This.  We haven't seen any of the support documents.  The rumors are that the NCAA uncovered nothing that was not submitted as evidence to the FBI trial.  If that is true then it might be hard to make this stick.  If that is true then I fundamentally disagree with Wolken's tweet about the "why" of why NCAA directing this at self.  The NCAA is directing it at self because that is their new enforcement procedure.  If they uncovered nothing but the evidence presented then they have multiple testimonies that specifically say that KU coaches didn't know about the payments.  That was sworn testimony in court and other than one text of "we need to get players", there is a lot of plausible deniability in that.  Once again, of course we knew.  No doubt in my mind.  But I don't think the NCAA is saying "BILL SELF KNEW AND ENCOURAGED!" They're saying, "The head man is going to be on the chopping block from now on."

[Iceman 2722]

You said ‘this’ but avoided what my post said. 

Kansas, Kentucky, et al are Doing what they do because there is absolutely zero risk for doing it. The NCAA has yet to come down on anybody in a real meaningful way. Acting as if some scholarships sanctions or something is going to stopthis corruption is a fucking joke.

 The schools generate revenue for the  NCAA, In that organization has shown zero interest in true accountability for its members

[PittsburghTiger 6192]

15 hours ago, Jhawk said:

What do you recommend KU do?

With preston, we could vacate every game he played in, which would be zero games.  We held him out the minute we "heard" of allegations of payment.  Same with De Sousa.  De Sousa was then cleared by an appeal committee because they concluded that the NCAA didn't have shit for a case against him.  To further fuck it up, the NCAA held the kid hostage unless KU would call Adidas a booster for the school so they could penalize the kid for taking money from a booster.

KU is absolutely guilty of getting busted with pay for play.  No doubt about it.  However, the NCAA has made a bunch of missteps and KU actually did a great job of covering themselves on the court.  The texts between Gassnola and KU coaches are absolutely idiotic but it is hard to imagine that you can stick bill self for massive penalties directly if all he has said is "we need top players".  I see Townsend going down as the sacrificial lamb, a potential vacation of the final four and maybe a lost scholarship or two. I don't see a chance in hell that Bill Self is directly implicated with anything more than failure to promote an environment of compliance.  The NCAA might try to stick him, but it will be so shakey that it won't end up being a Bruce Pearl or Sean Miller-like incident.

Shouldn't that be enough? This shit is so corrupted. Right after you say that Kansas is guilty you go right to the inept NCAA's missteps.

Duke did its own "investigation" of Zion's payment. Kansas did a great job covering themselves on the court. UNC got away with fake classes.

"Thank God we are dirty, but not as dirty as Bruce Pearl and Sean Miller, another banner for one more Big 12 Conference title please!"

It's all a fucking joke. 

[gecko 1104]

Self will get a mild reprimand.  I don't think the NCAA is all that clean re college bball either.  I don't think they're interested in Bill Self, or any other coach, going scorched earth.

[PittsburghTiger 6192]

15 minutes ago, gecko said:

Self will get a mild reprimand.  I don't think the NCAA is all that clean re college bball either.  I don't think they're interested in Bill Self, or any other coach, going scorched earth.

Bingo. Way too much free $$$$ involved for the NCAA. 

[formermav43 4606]

4 hours ago, Jhawk said:

What do you want me to say? If Herman won you a championship and then was going to be brought down by two players and a shoe rep what would you say? Especially if the issue would turn you into a middling team for 10 years? I’d rather become the evil team than become smu. Just the way it is. 

I’d say good riddance. I don’t think The University of Texas needs to cheat to win. And if we do...well, then I don’t think we need to win anymore. I’d rather sacrifice athletics for the reputation of the institution than the other way around.