FBI vs. NCAA Coaches

[GabrielsHorn 2186]

Welcome to the party, Kansas. Seems like it's de Sousa and Billy Preston.

Also surprised the FBI hasn't expanded beyond Adidas. 

 

[Machinator 32099]

NC State - obviously that's Dennis Smith, Jr. Anyone else?

[VRHorn 718]

Wait, weren’t we told KU was in the clear on this.

[Horny Bull 2766]

Was there ever any question that Kansas would be implicated in this? I mean, come on..

[Dbeasy 15087]

Sad news. While I’m a Longhorn, my dad went to Kansas and played basketball there as a freshman. If he were alive today he would be ashamed. It sad to see so many people cheat to achieve goals. The 14 straight Big 12 titles was a great story...but it’s not anymore. Eff ‘em.

[Jhawk 1075]

If you read it the document actually says adidas defrauded KU and goes out of its way to say that the university and coaches did not know about adidas’s dealings. 

That being said, billy Preston and Silvio desousa are the ones implicated here. It will be interesting to see if this is handled at all by the NCAA. 

[Leeroy Jenkins 2413]

5 minutes ago, Jhawk said:

If you read it the document actually says adidas defrauded KU and goes out of its way to say that the university and coaches did not know about adidas’s dealings. 

That being said, billy Preston and Silvio desousa are the ones implicated here. It will be interesting to see if this is handled at all by the NCAA. 

👌 

[Bitterwhiteguy 153]

4 hours ago, GabrielsHorn said:

 

Also surprised the FBI hasn't expanded beyond Adidas. 

 

They have.

http://usatodayhss.com/2017/report-nike-eybl-employees-subpoenaed-by-fbi-as-amateur-basketball-scandal-escalates

[Beau Vine 54398]

2 hours ago, Horny Bull said:

Was there ever any question that Kansas would be implicated in this? I mean, come on..

This is my favorite part:

Quote

“Earlier today, we learned that the University of Kansas is named as a victim in a federal indictment,” Joe Monaco, Kansas’ director of strategic communications said in a statement.

How does that guy sleep at night?

[Blotto 23570]

5 minutes ago, Jhawk said:

If you read it the document actually says adidas defrauded KU and goes out of its way to say that the university and coaches did not know about adidas’s dealings. 

That being said, billy Preston and Silvio desousa are the ones implicated here. It will be interesting to see if this is handled at all by the NCAA. 

Recruiting in college athletics is dirty as fuck, and of course it's more than just KU. But you have your head way up your ass if you think Self (and other head coaches) dont know everything about why these recruits do/don't end up on campus. I'm sure they go out of their way to put some distance between themselves and the money, but come on. Their million dollar paychecks depend on getting the right guys on campus year after year....they don't just wing it and hope that new facilities and rich traditions will win out over $50-100k from another team that also has new facilities and rich traditions.

[texasstrong12 4668]

If you followed the Billy Preston recruitment there's absolutely no doubt he was paid by somebody. The question is what role did Kansas play in the Adidas payment.

I think we all know the answer here, but I get the feeling a lot of coaches are going to avoid issues with the FBI/NCAA by just deflecting blame on the apparel companies.  

Edited April 11, 2018 by texasstrong12

[texasstrong12 4668]

2 hours ago, Jhawk said:

If you read it the document actually says adidas defrauded KU and goes out of its way to say that the university and coaches did not know about adidas’s dealings. 

That being said, billy Preston and Silvio desousa are the ones implicated here. It will be interesting to see if this is handled at all by the NCAA. 

Oubre, Embid, Wiggins, Tyshawn Taylor, Mclemore all signed with Adidas. Newman and Preston are probably next. 

Total coincidence 

 

[texasstrong12 4668]

 

[Jhawk 1075]

I’m not saying ku isn’t dirty. In fact I’ve been the guy all along who has said No one better be excited about any school getting caught because theirs could be next. What I’m saying is that the document calls out Kansas and the Kansas coaches as victims. Whether we are dirty or not doesn’t really matter if every piece of evidence found by the authorities exonerates the school. We might just be the best at playing the game. who knows.

hopefully we don’t have to vacate games and a final four because of this. My gut says we will but then again, the NCAA has been hands off on this stuff thus far.

 

Edited April 11, 2018 by Jhawk

[texasstrong12 4668]

That's fair, I think almost all schools involved with top recruits are engaging in actions that are probably pushing the boundaries of "dirty". 

I just have a hard time  believing that the coaching staff at Kansas didn't know or wasn't involved with Adidas. 

How does a shoe/apparel executive pick the school to "bless" in the first place without the school's involvement? Do these apparel companies just spin a wheel and it magically lands on Kansas? There almost has to be some type of engagement between a school and these apparel companies for a transaction to take place. 

Adidas didn't just randomly pick players like De Sousa/Preston to go to Kansas and Dennis Smith JR to NC State. There was some type of engagement with those schools and Adidas. It's nonsensical to think "Kansas didn't know". They had to know for some type of deal to go down. 

Edited April 11, 2018 by texasstrong12

[Jhawk 1075]

I think a couple of factors are at play...

1. Ku is a huge basketball brand. If ku is going after a guy who has a list of schools that are Nike or under armor then adidas probably doesn’t need a cue to step in. If we are up against a lesser school for an adidas player then adidas would probably try and steer the player toward us if we show high interest in the guy since we are on TV more than a school like... VTech (just picking a random school  don’t know if they are adidas or not).

2. My guess is that the coaches know. When we switched from Nike to Adidas there was likely a formal meeting and then happy hour where the real details were hashed out. After that, the ku coaches probably said something to the tune of “I will never talk to you about this again. I don’t want to be involved.” From there, it’s obvious who KU wants to recruit and when we bump up against duke or UK (Nike schools) there isn’t any need to call Gatto. And maybe the difference between us and another adidas school like Arizona or Louisville, and why UA has stolen high profile recruits from us at the last second (ayton being one) is that their coaches will be active in the process, which probably helps the agent on the back end to complete the trifecta of benefit.

do I think #1 is enough to make this whole thing go for KU? In some cases. But I think number 1 & 2 are working in tandem to make this cycle go. I would guess that this is how all of the blue bloods work to maintain innocence and a level of “integrity” over the field of coaches that are lesser than the HOFers. 

Once again I’ll state as I have all along, if you recruit top 50 players you are likely involved in all this so be careful what you wish for and say. This is all just adidas, UA and Nike have been ancillary names tossed around. Just wait until the come for those brands/players and everyone will be touched. Wichita fucking state had a guy take money. The number 25 recruit got 200k from UL. This isn’t going away. Condi rice has her report coming out in a couple of weeks as well. Should be a fun ride. 

Edited April 11, 2018 by Jhawk

[GabrielsHorn 2186]

Quote

Once again I’ll state as I have all along, if you recruit top 50 players you are likely involved in all this so be careful what you wish for and say. This is all just adidas, UA and Nike have been ancillary names tossed around. Just wait until the come for those brands/players and everyone will be touched. Wichita fucking state had a guy take money. The number 25 recruit got 200k from UL. This isn’t going away. Condi rice has her report coming out in a couple of weeks as well. Should be a fun ride. 

That's why I think Texas is going to be named one of these days if Nike's methods get broken. The amount of money that UL (and yes I know it was Adidas for UL) for a relatively small recruit is crazy.

[GlenFromTheMailRoom 1613]

1 hour ago, GabrielsHorn said:

That's why I think Texas is going to be named one of these days if Nike's methods get broken. The amount of money that UL (and yes I know it was Adidas for UL) for a relatively small recruit is crazy.

Bowen was a 5 star guard and a top 25 player.  Not exactly a small time recruit.

[Jhawk 1075]

200k to the number 25 guy (by some services I believe). I can only imagine what Anthony Davis or Kevin Durant would garner on the college market. If the competition was a high in the early 2000’s as it is today.  Those guys might have gotten 500k or more. 

Go the other direction. If #25 is getting 200k then what is #50 getting? 50k? What about #75 or 100?  That is why I brought up the Wichita guy. Even a Missouri valley (at the time) player took 5-10k. The simple fact is, unless you have the blood of George Washington flowing through your coaching staff then if you chase top 100 recruits there was potentially dollars exchanged for a commitment. Whether you knew about it like Arizona or you are seen as the victim like the fbi apparently sees KU (right or wrong). Either way, the NCAA has the right to tell your school that if you played an ineligible player then you have to vacate wins. Couple that with the NCAA’s proclivity to levy punishments inconsistently across schools and it would not surprise me to see one school skate and the next school get a 2 year post season ban. 

My honest belief is that condi rice is going to save us all of the NCAA isn’t too arrogant to take her report and change. That’s a huge if though and the NCAA will probably say it’s easier just to retroactively punish than to proactively alter the way they do business. 

Edited April 11, 2018 by Jhawk

[Underdog 28768]

Wolfpack/Raliegh were the driving force behind the UNC investigation, would be interesting/ironic if they got hammered over this while the Heels skated on their issues. 

Edited April 11, 2018 by Underdog

[VolenteHawk 495]

5 hours ago, texasstrong12 said:

How does a shoe/apparel executive pick the school to "bless" in the first place without the school's involvement? Do these apparel companies just spin a wheel and it magically lands on Kansas? There almost has to be some type of engagement between a school and these apparel companies for a transaction to take place. 

Adidas didn't just randomly pick players like De Sousa/Preston to go to Kansas and Dennis Smith JR to NC State. There was some type of engagement with those schools and Adidas. It's nonsensical to think "Kansas didn't know". They had to know for some type of deal to go down. 

I don't think Adidas cares which school as long as it's an Adidas one, because they ultimately don't care about their programs winning so much as getting kids hooked in for a shoe deal when they move on.  I don't think they'd bid against themselves in a situation where a kid was down to Louisville and Kansas, for example.

I'm presuming there are other parameters at play here, lots of recruiting pros and cons can still apply among selecting between different schools (even of the same apparel deal).  My assumption from following all this is that Nike and Adidas are working hard ($$$$$) for the top guys, we just haven't cracked the Nike egg, yet.

 

[Al_4_ISU 12482]

I fully expect Iowa State to get the Death Penalty because Kansas was implicated.

#big12refs

[Jhawk 1075]

Nike and under armor are probably burning down entire wings of their business development offices right now to make sure they have zero records of recruits. They’re probably closing bank accounts, moving banks, whatever it takes. As long as they don’t get caught they effectively eliminated the #2 brand from being able to compete under the same set of rules as Nike and UA. In 1-2 years we could see all of the top recruits at Nike schools and none at adidas schools. That’s how we’ll know if this shit is being cleaned up or not. 

[VolenteHawk 495]

I'm far from an apologist on this stuff, I was (lightly) recruited in basketball.  I saw how dirty it was even in the 90s...it's gotta be miles worse now.  Everybody that's recruiting high level guys is some amount of dirty.

But I actually believe that Self didn't know about De Sousa.  He's usually pretty quick to sit guys when eligibility stuff comes up.

 

[Al_4_ISU 12482]

I still have a hard time believing anything concrete will come from this.

[orangeut 212]

Billy Preston will probably just tell the NCAA to "let it be".  

[Jhawk 1075]

1 hour ago, orangeut said:

Billy Preston will probably just tell the NCAA to "let it be".  

The good thing about preston is that he never played a minute for KU.  Even though he is dirty we can't be punished for him.

I also don't think anything will come of this.  I think the FBI slaps everyone, including the NCAA, on the wrist and the NCAA finds some way to come down on the coaches/programs that were DIRECTLY involved (which means KU will be safe) and then the NCAA will wipe their ass with Condi Rice's report and keep saying that amateurism is sacred.  Around the carousel we go again.

[orangeut 212]

Billy Preston is probably wondering about the investigation to himself,  "will it go round in circles?"

[Underdog 28768]

Take a break, you’re trying too hard. 

[Leanderman 2276]

We all known Kansas has been dirty for years. Seems like the scum is over flowing now. Expect high priced lawyers to add a second vacation home soon while dragging this through the courts.

[Jhawk 1075]

What is there to be drug through the courts on KU’s behalf? They are listed as a victim. 

[Beau Vine 54398]

44 minutes ago, Jhawk said:

What is there to be drug through the courts on KU’s behalf? They are listed as a victim. 

If this is a serious response, you honestly have to be the most naïve person in the world.

Do you really think Kansas is not worried about De Souza and Billy Preston being subpoenaed to give testimony in a federal trial?  

Do you really think that Adidas, from whom KU accepted $191 million dollars, paying players to go to Kansas is going to be OK with the NCAA?

 

[Dewey 3289]

Are they actually listed as victims? Or is this what they are calling themselves?

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[kopp0e 1135]

On 4/11/2018 at 4:28 AM, Jhawk said:

I’m not saying ku isn’t dirty. In fact I’ve been the guy all along who has said No one better be excited about any school getting caught because theirs could be next. What I’m saying is that the document calls out Kansas and the Kansas coaches as victims. Whether we are dirty or not doesn’t really matter if every piece of evidence found by the authorities exonerates the school. We might just be the best at playing the game. who knows.

hopefully we don’t have to vacate games and a final four because of this. My gut says we will but then again, the NCAA has been hands off on this stuff thus far.

 

Can you imagine if the FBI probe looked into the SEC (football)..? That's a story in & of itself...

[Goo Punch 4275]

On 4/10/2018 at 7:30 PM, longhornmatt said:

I’m shocked - shocked! - to see Kansas on this list.  Bill Self has never been involved in any “unusual” recruitments ... well, excluding Brandon Rush, Darrell Arthur, Josh Selby, Andrew Wiggins, Cliff Alexander, Cheick Diallo, Billy Preston, etc.

Anyway, I wonder if Shaka will get a second bite at the apple with Grimes like Charlie got with the Baylor commits a few years ago? 

Wow, there’s a name I’d forgotten. He was supposed to be the man from day one. Now I have no idea what even happened to him.

[Jhawk 1075]

Condi Rice and the NCAA commission release their recommendations and report on wednesday.  Should be an interesting read for my morning growler.

[Captain Obvious 524]

On 4/14/2018 at 11:37 AM, kopp0e said:

Can you imagine if the FBI probe looked into the SEC (football)..? That's a story in & of itself...

Even George R. R. Martin thinks the story behind SEC football would take too long to unravel at one time.  Just pick any SEC school outside of Kentucky or Vandy and you'll get a novel.

[kopp0e 1135]

Between the chinanagins of conference realignment & the rampant cheating within particular schools of most power conferences, there could be a movie in the works eventually...

[Jhawk 1075]

NCAA Report is out...

https://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/2018CCBReportFinal_web.pdf

From what I'm seeing, they basically say the following:

1. Get rid of one and done (NCAA can't do this)

2. Allow students to talk with agents (already happening on the black market)

3. Allow students to enter draft and pull out (can basically already do this)

4. Punish coaches and schools more harshly

5. Give athletes more resources so they value their education more (already have tutors and student assistants)

6. Start NCAA sponsored programs to kill the AAU (the aau used to be the ncaa before the ncaa ended the aau.  Now the ncaa wants to blame the aau again for basketball failings)

Basically the NCAA laid a big turd on the table and said none of the problems are their problems.  The schools still maintain that they are the reason the players get noticed and get to the nba.  Further, the NCAA now is being told to partner with apparel companies and start their own non-scholastic basketball leagues.  So instead of Oak Hill getting sponsored by Nike the NCAA will have another revenue stream because their teams which feeds their corrupt colleges will get sponsorship revenue.  The report basically says the NCAA should police and own these kids once they get out of biddy basketball.

Incredible.

Edited April 25, 2018 by Jhawk

[Huckleberry 33082]

Unsurprisingly your takeaway is hard to fathom in many places and outright false in others.

[rickyspub 801]

One way I read that the NCAA could try to force the NBA's hand on one-and-dones would be to not allow freshmen to play. Doubt they would go that far and perhaps the NBA would be happy to see their future players get more intensive training overseas than NCAA-mandated time limits on practice for student-athletes. Really wish they could set up what baseball has and let HS players either go pro immediately or have a required 3-year investment in college.

[Beau Vine 54398]

 

For Condi's report to lead off with "fix the one-and-done" just shows that her committee is completely tone-deaf fantasyland dwellers.  As is anyone else who says "We need to fix college basketball by getting rid of one-and-done."  

Anyone who says that has their head up their ass.  Yes, you, Condi.  You don't control that rule.  That rule is an NBA rule, collectively bargained between the NBA and the NBAPA.  And it's not going to change at least until their current CBA expires.  That's not a complicated concept.

How about if you make some specific recommendations to the NCAA on rules they actually have control over? 

I mean, it's just fucking unbelievable to continually hear people say that the NCAA needs to fix the one-and-done rule.  That's like saying that Greg Abbott needs to fix the August weather in Texas.

 

[Beau Vine 54398]

57 minutes ago, rickyspub said:

One way I read that the NCAA could try to force the NBA's hand on one-and-dones would be to not allow freshmen to play. 

There is zero chance of that happening because these freshmen make big money for the NCAA member schools.  Would you be buying tickets to watch Kevin Durant sit on the bench for a year in street clothes?

The NCAA fucking looooooooooooooooooooves money.  That's the entire root of all of their problems.  

[kopp0e 1135]

1 hour ago, Jhawk said:

NCAA Report is out...

https://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/2018CCBReportFinal_web.pdf

From what I'm seeing, they basically say the following:

1. Get rid of one and done (NCAA can't do this)

2. Allow students to talk with agents (already happening on the black market)

3. Allow students to enter draft and pull out (can basically already do this)

4. Punish coaches and schools more harshly

5. Give athletes more resources so they value their education more (already have tutors and student assistants)

6. Start NCAA sponsored programs to kill the AAU (the aau used to be the ncaa before the ncaa ended the aau.  Now the ncaa wants to blame the aau again for basketball failings)

Basically the NCAA laid a big turd on the table and said none of the problems are their problems.  The schools still maintain that they are the reason the players get noticed and get to the nba.  Further, the NCAA now is being told to partner with apparel companies and start their own non-scholastic basketball leagues.  So instead of Oak Hill getting sponsored by Nike the NCAA will have another revenue stream because their teams which feeds their corrupt colleges will get sponsorship revenue.  The report basically says the NCAA should police and own these kids once they get out of biddy basketball.

Incredible.

If the NBA models it's amature/ minor league similar to the MLB, many of these issues would not currently exist as is...

I agree with points #2/ #3 & #5, and would want more clarity on #4, as to to it would not be subjective from school to school but set as a standard mandate irregardless of name... 

[rickyspub 801]

3 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

There is zero chance of that happening because these freshmen make big money for the NCAA member schools.  Would you be buying tickets to watch Kevin Durant sit on the bench for a year in street clothes?

The NCAA fucking looooooooooooooooooooves money.  That's the entire root of all of their problems.  

And I then said that I doubted they would ever do that. I don't think they would in large part because I am not sure it would do much to press the NBA to change their rules, should they prove unwilling. In reality a Kevin Durant wouldn't be in street clothes at Texas, he would be in Europe or Asia earning a paycheck and making sure the NBA could see him play.

I also doubt the schools would see much difference in money...at least in aggregate. Sure Texas would have lost some fan interest had we not had Durant that one year and that team didn't make a Sweet 16, but I am not sure if other Texas teams might have had better records and tourney runs in many years by having a stable, more experience roster rather than cycling through rent-a-players. The biggest loss for Texas would be not having Durant as a big time booster, but the likelihood of Texas again drawing one of the Top 2 basketball players of any given era is pretty slim. I would be curious to see if more tickets were sold after the one-and-done rule was brought back compared to when the NBA took HSers.

I ultimately think the NCAA and NBA get on the same page and the NBA opens their draft to high school players again, but I doubt they will agree to rules like in baseball that require a college player to be 3 years removed from HS before being draft eligible again. 

[Beau Vine 54398]

20 minutes ago, rickyspub said:

I ultimately think the NCAA and NBA get on the same page and the NBA opens their draft to high school players again, but I doubt they will agree to rules like in baseball that require a college player to be 3 years removed from HS before being draft eligible again. 

The NBA loves having a free minor league, which is what the NCAA is.  It lets them more confidently assess who is ready to play NBA ball, which drastically reduces the risk of committing a high draft pick and millions of dollars to a teenager.  

What's their motivation for "getting on the same page" with the NCAA?

 

As far as the one-and-done, that overwhelmingly benefits the NCAA blue bloods and the P5 conferences.  If you require freshmen to sit out (which probably would drive the best players to Europe or wherever), that's going to hurt those schools.  And those schools are the ones that call the shots.  So that's not going to happen, either.  

[Huckleberry 33082]

48 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

 

For Condi's report to lead off with "fix the one-and-done" just shows that her committee is completely tone-deaf fantasyland dwellers.  As is anyone else who says "We need to fix college basketball by getting rid of one-and-done."  

Anyone who says that has their head up their ass.  Yes, you, Condi.  You don't control that rule.  That rule is an NBA rule, collectively bargained between the NBA and the NBAPA.  And it's not going to change at least until their current CBA expires.  That's not a complicated concept.

How about if you make some specific recommendations to the NCAA on rules they actually have control over? 

I mean, it's just fucking unbelievable to continually hear people say that the NCAA needs to fix the one-and-done rule.  That's like saying that Greg Abbott needs to fix the August weather in Texas.

 

The report specifically discusses the fact that the NCAA doesn't control that rule and what their recommendation will be if the NBA does not change that rule.

[El Diablo 4232]

1 minute ago, Huckleberry said:

The report specifically discusses the fact that the NCAA doesn't control that rule and what their recommendation will be if the NBA does not change that rule.

Oh, so now people are supposed to READ before they comment?

How long has it been since colleges had JV teams? Just go back to that.

[Jhawk 1075]

42 minutes ago, kopp0e said:

If the NBA models it's amature/ minor league similar to the MLB, many of these issues would not currently exist as is...

I agree with points #2/ #3 & #5, and would want more clarity on #4, as to to it would not be subjective from school to school but set as a standard mandate irregardless of name... 

The problem with this report is that it completely ignores the issue that is at hand and that issue is paying players. Players aren't accepting money because they feel they aren't getting treated right by agents.  They aren't accepting money because they don't understand the value of an education.  They are accepting money because they are valuable and they are the only class of citizen in the USA that basically isn't allowed to use their skills to earn money on the same day they use their skills to provide a service.  This report talks around the problem for 60 pages.  The only thing that needs to be done is to allow players to market their likeness and skills.  If that will cause an imbalance in parity then maybe the schools that are missing out on top recruits should have better education programs to create wealthier alumni and have better alumni associations to bring those newly rich alumni closer to the university so they will offer no show jobs to the athletes.  If KU alumni collectively decide that they don't want to outbid UT for Vince Young then we shouldn't bitch when we don't sign vince young. 

The NCAA isn't even in the same atmosphere as the problem that all of society is talking about.  Everyone is calling for players to be allowed to source compensation on their own and the NCAA is proposing solutions that will stop the toilet from backing up.  The are missing the mark so incredibly bad it isn't even funny.

[Jhawk 1075]

8 minutes ago, El Diablo said:

Oh, so now people are supposed to READ before they comment?

How long has it been since colleges had JV teams? Just go back to that.

 

10 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

The report specifically discusses the fact that the NCAA doesn't control that rule and what their recommendation will be if the NBA does not change that rule.

To me, it is comical that they even put that in there.  To put it in there as the first change that needs to be made just shows that this report is there to blame others for the failings of the NCAA and to distract from the real issue that players should be allowed to use their skill set to make money