Survivor: Winners at War

[Go Pokes 979]

2 hours ago, Vito Andolini said:

 

I do think the bar has now been set for returnees from any exile: if you hope to win, you’d better be willing to enter the fire making challenge and take out the baddest one left. Chris did that in his season and won, Natalie did not, and we saw what happened (it was edited to make it seem Boston Rob held it against her).

 

Edited that way?  He literally said that twice.  He did hold it against her and I bet he said a lot more to the jury that we never heard.  She blew it.  

[HoffaJimmy 316]

My thoughts. 

Tony deserved to win in the new over idol'd world of Survivor. I am glad he won but overall I was really disappointed in the season I was expecting a hell of lot more out of all the former winners being there. Instead they just let Tony run around and find 12 idols and plot who to take out with Sarah. 

Nat- I don't give a shit that it wasn't in "the game" that was one of the most dominant physical performances ever on Survivor just unreal. 

As far as her not having a shot to win because she wasn't playing the game for most of the season- I would normally agree but when they throw in all the other advantages and idols does it really matter? They have changed the game so much it doesn't look anything like the game once did. Not to mention if it was old school Survivor Tony would have been voted out at 4 instead of making the final 3 by winning a fire challenge. 

Tony deserved the win but I would have been fine with either Michelle or Nat winning based on how things played out at the end. I also think Sarah wins if she didn't fuck up her fire. 

Good not great season. Maybe my expectations were too high. 

One last thing- Fuck Sandra and her quitting ass. 

 

[HoffaJimmy 316]

4 minutes ago, Go Pokes said:

She was a worthy runner up but you be crazy if you think she deserved it more than Tony.  Boston Rob nailed it.  Take on Tony in the fire making challenge and she walks to the victory by probably getting every vote.  She pussed out and it cost her $2M.  When you come back from EOE, you have to do something dramatic and ballsy to win.  Chris showed that last season.  She didn't have the balls to do it and I can't believe 4 people actually voted for her.  Those were the only 4 people who voted with their hearts with no regard for who actually deserved to win.  Disappointing that former winners would do that when it was obvious who the winner should be.  At least there weren't any bitter jurors.  Just 4 clueless one that disregarded everything they know about Survivor.  

 

"Jury management" They were clueless in your opinion. (Sorry couldn't help myself having Big Brother argument flashbacks!)

 

[kevwun 15595]

Natalie is in better shape than everyone who she was on EoE with.  Only a couple of them were even in the same galaxy as she is.  That's a part of Survivor, but the way they set up EoE this year, it was given too much importance.  I do not like the idea of having 2 different games and then mashing them together at the end.  It would be like if Top Chef had the chefs who are sent to Last Chance Kitchen do a singing competition until they get back in the game.

Edited May 14, 2020 by kevwun

[Knoxtnhorn 5928]

16 minutes ago, HoffaJimmy said:

My thoughts. 

Tony deserved to win in the new over idol'd world of Survivor. I am glad he won but overall I was really disappointed in the season I was expecting a hell of lot more out of all the former winners being there. Instead they just let Tony run around and find 12 idols and plot who to take out with Sarah. 

Nat- I don't give a shit that it wasn't in "the game" that was one of the most dominant physical performances ever on Survivor just unreal. 

As far as her not having a shot to win because she wasn't playing the game for most of the season- I would normally agree but when they throw in all the other advantages and idols does it really matter? They have changed the game so much it doesn't look anything like the game once did. Not to mention if it was old school Survivor Tony would have been voted out at 4 instead of making the final 3 by winning a fire challenge. 

Tony deserved the win but I would have been fine with either Michelle or Nat winning based on how things played out at the end. I also think Sarah wins if she didn't fuck up her fire. 

Good not great season. Maybe my expectations were too high. 

One last thing- Fuck Sandra and her quitting ass. 

 

Agree to a point.  It probably wasn't fair that Nat was voted out first.  On a season with returning winners, someone has to go as opposed to the general rule - 1st person to alienate themselves on Days 1 and 2.  Yes, she dominated EOE.  However, the absolute biggest part of the game is in building alliances, knowing when to flip, knowing who to trust, avoiding blindsides, etc. She didn't have to do any of this.  As a matter of fact, she came back with an idol, lucked into finding a 2nd, then won an Immunity that really wasn't about anything other than focus. 

Tony navigated all of the pitfalls and never even got a vote.  His two biggest allies were a flaky, emotionally fragile guy (as evidenced by basically just giving up at the end) and a fellow cop who he back stabbed on a previous season.  

Again, I agree with much of what you said and am not trying to be contrarian.  Just throwing in my 17 cents.

[Knoxtnhorn 5928]

Perhaps my neg opinion of Nat arises from her nasty underarms.  Normally, the natural look doesn't bother me on girls; however, 🤮

[HoffaJimmy 316]

Just now, kevwun said:

Natalie is in better shape than everyone who she was on EoE with.  Only a couple of them were even in the same galaxy as she is.  That's a part of Survivor, but the way they set up EoE this year, it was given too much importance.

 

I have to assume that EoE was a big part of this season as a "thanks" to all the former winners. Nobody (except for Sandra) wanted to commit to going on the show, get voted out after 3 days and then be sent home. It was Survivor's way of allowing all of those former winners to get the air time and keep them "in the game". 

I generally agree I am not a fan of EoE but I view it the same way I do all of the extra idols, advantages, etc. It's changes producers have added to the game so if it's within the rules I guess it's fair game. 

I guess I am just more sick of all the idols being in play every week that I have less of a problem with Nat coming back from EoE and having a shot to win.

[DanRydell 799]

She was a worthy runner up but you be crazy if you think she deserved it more than Tony.  Boston Rob nailed it.  Take on Tony in the fire making challenge and she walks to the victory by probably getting every vote.  She pussed out and it cost her $2M.  When you come back from EOE, you have to do something dramatic and ballsy to win.  Chris showed that last season.  She didn't have the balls to do it and I can't believe 4 people actually voted for her.  Those were the only 4 people who voted with their hearts with no regard for who actually deserved to win.  Disappointing that former winners would do that when it was obvious who the winner should be.  At least there weren't any bitter jurors.  Just 4 clueless one that disregarded everything they know about Survivor.  

Chris didn’t win because the move was ballsy, he won because the move knocked Devens out, thus clearing his path to win.

 

Nat similarly needed to get rid of Tony, not because she needed to be ballsy, but because Tony was the biggest threat in the final 3. If she didn’t feel she had the best shot of the three women of beating him at firemaking, then putting herself against him would have been dumb, not ballsy.

[DanRydell 799]

Tony dominated from day one.  Did anybody ever write his name down before last night?  As for Natalie, I love her but she didn't have to play the game.  EOE needs to die forever.

Nope, he didn’t receive a single vote. Has anyone seen any interviews with any of the final 6-7 people where they talked about why in the hell they weren’t targeting him?

[Go Pokes 979]

 
"Jury management" They were clueless in your opinion. (Sorry couldn't help myself having Big Brother argument flashbacks!)
 

Thank God we don’t have to have the jury mgmt discussion! Tony had the jury eating out of his hand. They couldn’t wait to give Tony $2M. I was surprised to hear if anyone botched the jury management, it was Natalie.

[Go Pokes 979]

Chris didn’t win because the move was ballsy, he won because the move knocked Devens out, thus clearing his path to win.
 
Nat similarly needed to get rid of Tony, not because she needed to be ballsy, but because Tony was the biggest threat in the final 3. If she didn’t feel she had the best shot of the three women of beating him at firemaking, then putting herself against him would have been dumb, not ballsy.

Dumb, but the only path to victory. Which would, by definition, make it a ballsy move. I thought I heard someone say this season that she was a fire making demon. She just overestimated her accomplishments. Yeah, they were impressive but they weren’t really Survivor. She basically got to play the role of production and influence the game without actually playing it.

[Message Board User 12389]

The fire making challenger itself was pretty epic, as far as fire making challenges go.

At one point During the challenge I thought for sure Sarah was going to win.

[HoffaJimmy 316]

Just now, Message Board User said:

The fire making challenger itself was pretty epic, as far as fire making challenges go.

At one point During the challenge I thought for sure Sarah was going to win.

 

She should/would have if at the very beginning instead of just watching her fire touch the string she added more sticks to the base. 

I also think that cost her $2M. As she pointed out Tony got all the glory but she was very much a part of most of their decisions in the game. That plus the speech she gave at the previous tribal would have won her enough votes to beat Nat. 

Edited May 14, 2020 by HoffaJimmy

[kevwun 15595]

Yeah she used all of her husks up and made a big flame, but didn't use enough wood so it died when the husks were gone.  Tony recreated the aggy bonfire.

[Bosco 56]

1 hour ago, HoffaJimmy said:

My thoughts. 

Tony deserved to win in the new over idol'd world of Survivor. I am glad he won but overall I was really disappointed in the season I was expecting a hell of lot more out of all the former winners being there. Instead they just let Tony run around and find 12 idols and plot who to take out with Sarah. 

Except Tony only found 1 idol and it wasn't until Day 26.  And you ignored his 4 immunity wins at important times.

Edited May 14, 2020 by Bosco

[HoffaJimmy 316]

13 minutes ago, Bosco said:

Except Tony only found 1 idol and it wasn't until Day 26.  And you ignored his 4 immunity wins at important times.

 

Sorry I was over exaggerating. 100% and I wasn't discounting his 4 immunity wins. Just playing devils advocate on why or how someone else could have won but more importantly how I hate the fact there were 10 fucking idols found this season.  

[DanRydell 799]

Dumb, but the only path to victory. Which would, by definition, make it a ballsy move. I thought I heard someone say this season that she was a fire making demon. She just overestimated her accomplishments. Yeah, they were impressive but they weren’t really Survivor. She basically got to play the role of production and influence the game without actually playing it.

Except it was not the only path the victory as I clearly laid out. Had Tony lost the firemaking to Sarah (or Michele), Nat had a good chance to win over the other two women. Her only path to victory WAS getting rid of Tony, but that doesn’t mean her making fire had the best odds of getting rid of him. IF she was clearly better at making fire than Sarah or Michele, then I agree, it was the wrong move, but I don’t think any of us really have enough info to have an opinion about that.

[Go Pokes 979]

14 minutes ago, DanRydell said:

Except it was not the only path the victory as I clearly laid out. Had Tony lost the firemaking to Sarah (or Michele), Nat had a good chance to win over the other two women. Her only path to victory WAS getting rid of Tony, but that doesn’t mean her making fire had the best odds of getting rid of him. IF she was clearly better at making fire than Sarah or Michele, then I agree, it was the wrong move, but I don’t think any of us really have enough info to have an opinion about that.

I still think it was her only path to victory.  Based on what Rob said, and I am making an assumption that he could sway some votes in the jury, she needed to take out Tony herself.  Lacina taking Tony out only helps Lacina.  

[WBT 20397]

Nat had no path to victory with that final 4.  Sarah would have won.  If Nat had somehow made it to the final 3 with Michele and Ben, maybe she would have had a shot but I still would have hated it.

[Go Pokes 979]

4 minutes ago, WBT said:

Nat had no path to victory with that final 4.  Sarah would have won.  If Nat had somehow made it to the final 3 with Michele and Ben, maybe she would have had a shot but I still would have hated it.

I think she had a path, but it involved taking out Tony in the fire challenge.  I don't know if the jury would have heard about it or not, but Sarah screwed the pooch hard by not listening to Tony about voting out Denise and saving their idols.  As usual, Tony was on top of exactly what was happening and what needed to be done and Sarah just wasn't willing to do what it took to win.  Just like Tony flipping and voting out Sophie and not telling her.  She wouldn't have wanted to do it so he decided it was better to beg forgiveness than to ask for permission.  Based on that and her over the top hubris thinking she knew what to do and Tony should listen to her, it would have been a disappointing end if Sarah had won.  The jury wouldn't have heard her little interview where she made herself look like an idiot though.  But I heard it dammit!  And once she said that, I was out on Sarah.  It just showed how clueless she was about what was happening in the game.  I think Nat or Michelle would have made a better winner than Sarah.  Looking back at it, I feel like she was just along for the ride and Tony was driving.  He did a masterful job of making her think they were equals, but they weren't.  She was just a chess piece he had to manage a little more.  She was basically Denise with an overinflated view of the game she was playing and no big moves.  Hell, Denise would have been a better winner than Sarah.  My assessment of Lacina - probably the most overrated player in this season's cast.  

[Chuckie Finster 22583]

1 hour ago, HoffaJimmy said:

 

Sorry I was over exaggerating. 100% and I wasn't discounting his 4 immunity wins. Just playing devils advocate on why or how someone else could have won but more importantly how I hate the fact there were 10 fucking idols found this season.  

If production is convinced that they need to continue to make idols a central focus in the game, I have one suggestion that I think could clean things up.  Make every single idol have two powers: 1) immunity or  2) nullifier of another idol.  (i.e. last night, when Natalie got up to play her idol at the final 6, Tony could theoretically have gone up right after her and nullified it with his).  Do away with all other advantages (50/50 coin, safety without power, etc.)  

I think it opens up a ton of new strategic possibilities.  If your target plays an idol do you nullify it, thus eliminating that player but also losing your idol?  Or do you sit tight because you are pretty sure that you won't be the target and you want to save your idol for another tribal?  Or do you pretend that you don't have an idol and try and get someone else in your alliance to play theirs instead? I think idols have become a get out of jail free card too many times for players at the bottom, and this could potentially slow that down a bit while forcing players to be aware of the big picture at all times.  It would also (most likely) put a stop to these tribals where 80% of the players are immune because of a scavenger hunt.

[HoffaJimmy 316]

16 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:

If production is convinced that they need to continue to make idols a central focus in the game, I have one suggestion that I think could clean things up.  Make every single idol have two powers: 1) immunity or  2) nullifier of another idol.  (i.e. last night, when Natalie got up to play her idol at the final 6, Tony could theoretically have gone up right after her and nullified it with his).  Do away with all other advantages (50/50 coin, safety without power, etc.)  

I think it opens up a ton of new strategic possibilities.  If your target plays an idol do you nullify it, thus eliminating that player but also losing your idol?  Or do you sit tight because you are pretty sure that you won't be the target and you want to save your idol for another tribal?  Or do you pretend that you don't have an idol and try and get someone else in your alliance to play theirs instead? I think idols have become a get out of jail free card too many times for players at the bottom, and this could potentially slow that down a bit while forcing players to be aware of the big picture at all times.  It would also (most likely) put a stop to these tribals where 80% of the players are immune because of a scavenger hunt.

 

They clearly need to do something. An idol that is played which blindsides someone out of the game or an alliance member out of the game is great TV. (Denise fucking Sandra over was one of the best if not the best moment of the season), 3 idols being played when there are 5 fucking people left in the game is not. 

It's just too fucking much. (in my opinion) 

 

[Message Board User 12389]

If only Natalie had the sage advice from the experts on Island of the Idols...

[Horn80 6074]

2 hours ago, Go Pokes said:

I still think it was her only path to victory.  Based on what Rob said, and I am making an assumption that he could sway some votes in the jury, she needed to take out Tony herself.  Lacina taking Tony out only helps Lacina.  

After reading comments about this, I agree that Nat’s best shot to win it all was to take out Tony herself.  Leaving it up to Sarah didn’t do anything for her except make her look weak.  Potentially was a $2 million mistake that she’s got to live with for rest of her life.

Edited May 14, 2020 by Horn80

[Go Pokes 979]

Interesting point I heard on a podcast.  Probably the biggest of the many mistakes Lacina made near the end was getting rid of Ben.  I don't think that would have earned her many brownie points with the jury anyway.  If she votes out Michelle, that leaves Nat, Tony, her, and Ben in the final 4.  Unless Tony wins the final immunity challenge,  she could let Ben take out Tony in fire making and hope she can present a better argument (by taking credit for all of Tony's work) than Nat.  Huge mistakes by Nat and Lacina last night pretty much guaranteed Tony the W.  

[HoffaJimmy 316]

Just now, Go Pokes said:

Interesting point I heard on a podcast.  Probably the biggest of the many mistakes Lacina made near the end was getting rid of Ben.  I don't think that would have earned her many brownie points with the jury anyway.  If she votes out Michelle, that leaves Nat, Tony, her, and Ben in the final 4.  Unless Tony wins the final immunity challenge,  she could let Ben take out Tony in fire making and hope she can present a better argument (by taking credit for all of Tony's work) than Nat.  Huge mistakes by Nat and Lacina last night pretty much guaranteed Tony the W.  

100% they both had a shot to take out the clear favorite to win and they both screwed up. 

[DanRydell 799]

Apparently like four jurors told Michele they wanted to vote for her but didn't want to risk Nat beating Tony. If they're going to keep doing final 3's, maybe they should do a ranked choice voting system.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13391]

7 hours ago, thrillhammer said:

i seem to be the only one here that was rooting for natalie.  disappointed in her eoe tribe mates that i was certain would have her back on the jury.  as much time as they spent with her and as much as they saw what a beast she was and won almost every advantage offered.  she used those advantages to influence the game, in the short time she was there she broke up the most powerful alliance, she won immunity, she found an idol.  all amazing feats in such a short time.  

I wish Natalie would have lasted more than 3 days on Survivor because she's one of biggest physical threats ever on the show. Going EOE, winning basically everything, buying every advantage and then dominating on her return ranks up there on Survivor feats. 

But she didn't play the entire season. She practically did everything that she could but she or anyone returning was in a bad position.

[idigTexas 2258]

I don't like Tony's personality or the way he plays, but I respect how good he is at Survivor, and he was definitely a deserving winner.  That said, I do not give him any credit for not getting votes.  There were a lot of "Tony's wheelhouse" challenges this season (including the one at final 5), which is why he almost tied the record for immunities.  If that final 5 challenge had a puzzle, there's a good chance Tony ends up on the jury, though it is unlikely he goes out in Ben fashion.  When Tony didn't win immunity, he almost always had an idol in his pocket, which was either known or logically assumed by the other players.  In short, it's hard to get votes when you are always sitting on immunity.  Tony did well outside of the immunities, which is why he was a deserving winner, but he doesn't deserve as much credit for his social game as he is getting.

I was pulling for Natalie, but she did make some mistakes down the stretch...targeting Ben instead of Sarah, showing Sarah (and Tony) her idol, and apparently not challenging Tony to fire. Her argument that she took down the alliance of 4 was very good, but Rob questioning her decision to not make fire really hurt her.   I can understand not wanting to make fire when you have a ticket to final tribal in your hand.  She should have at least tried to spin it by arguing that people have different strengths, and hers do not include making fire, and that her best opportunity to get rid of Tony was to put him against a better fire maker.  She wasn't ducking the challenge; she was playing to her strengths.  Alternatively, she could have argued that she wanted to do things her own way, and not follow Chris's blueprints.  She could have even resorted to claiming that she wanted the challenge of explaining at final tribal why she was more deserving than Tony, but to sell that, she would have needed to give Tony the second spot. 

Mistakes aside, Natalie deserved every vote she got.  I was vehemently against Chris winning in the first EoE season, but I can't fault him for playing the game he played.  If something is part of the game, it is part of the game, even if I don't like it.  Natalie played the hand she was dealt.  Upon being the first voted out, she immediately began doing everything she could to get back in.  You can hate the game if you want, but hating the player is wrong.  Natalie didn't make the rules.  She just crushed the game she was given.  If you are going to penalize her for going the EoE route, then penalize Tony for relying on idols.   

I do feel bad for Michelle.  She didn't even get a sympathy vote from Wendell (I'm shocked I'm stunned).  Hanging on like a roach that just refuses to be flushed down the toilet just doesn't garner any respect.  She outlasted, but she did not outwit or outplay.  

Sarah played a great game, but made too many mistakes down the stretch.  It would have been interesting to see how she would have done had she beat Tony.  Denise appeared to stop playing after taking out Sandra.  Ben made the right alliances, but that's all he did, and his description of how different he was this season was phony as hell. 

I'm a notorious idol hater, but if they are going to stay, and they are, I would like to see come changes made.  I like the idea of playing one as a nullifier, but that allows a third person to hold on to one.  There should definitely be fewer.  Maybe only allow you to use one as long as you are on the tribe you were on when you found it.  If you get moved in a tribe swap or there is a merge, your idol becomes void.  Every time an idol is made available, a nullifier is made available as well.  You want to really feel safe?  You better find both.   

It was a good and enjoyable season, even if I would have preferred a different winner.      

 

[Scraps 13531]

-Glad Nat didn't win.

-too much extra shit in the game now

-strategizing at tribal needs to GTFO...especially asking people who they voted for prior to playing an idol wtf. That probably helped with winning Tony the game cause he didn't play his idol then if i remember correctly

-tap the fucking breaks...not the best season of Survivor ever

[Scraps 13531]

Oh and get off my fucking lawn

[texashorne 1177]

I don't mind EoE.. I am fine with it coming back around every 3 or 4 seasons. 

Tony played the best game and won. 

[HoffaJimmy 316]

On 5/16/2020 at 7:33 PM, Scraps said:

-Glad Nat didn't win.

-too much extra shit in the game now

-strategizing at tribal needs to GTFO...especially asking people who they voted for prior to playing an idol wtf. That probably helped with winning Tony the game cause he didn't play his idol then if i remember correctly

-tap the fucking breaks...not the best season of Survivor ever

 

- Agreed (although I would have had less a problem with it this season then when Chris won)

- Agree

-Agree

-100% not even close.