NPR story on student loans

[elfenix 34230]

personal responsibility is for poors.

[wildcat09 29349]

5 minutes ago, Longhornfan1024 said:

Personal responsibility.  That's interesting.  So let's talk about personal responsibility of people beyond students whose parents couldn't afford to pay for their college degree.  Let's say we have a person who has bankrupted multiple business, putting people out of jobs and screwing over contractors who then couldn't get paid or pay their employees, putting them out of jobs.  Let's say this person's bankruptcies total in the hundreds of millions, if not billions.  Should that person be personally responsible for their poor business decisions?  Should they still be a billionaire millionaire who is lauded as a great business person?  Or should they be a penniless pauper living on the streets?  Should 40% of the country vote that person into office because they will use their "great business skills" to improve the economy?  Is that personal responsibility?  

And when that person treats the country in the same manner they treated their companies, blowing up debt at an astronomical rate, should the people who voted for him and who continue to support him be personally responsible for those debts?  Should they be personally responsible to those who voted against him?  Should tax payers who support his business practices be the ones to pay for them?  

Personal responsibility can be an interesting and complicated concept.  But I find often it just breaks down to one simple rule: personal responsibility for thee and not for me.  As a somewhat wealthy white man, you are perfectly happy for poor college kids to face personal responsibility.  But a rich white man facing personal responsibility?  That's just fucking crazy.

Didn't you hear? We have to encourage businessmen, excuse me, entrepreneurs, to take risks. That's why we created things like liability shields and bankruptcy. We have to protect them from any negative repercussions that result from them being irresponsible. It's for the good of society. There's no societal interest in actually providing a decent education to all so anyone who incurs debt to obtain an education can fuck off.

[JimmyJames 12271]

1 minute ago, elfenix said:

personal responsibility is for poors.

That’s Johnny Sack’s line. You done stoled it. 

[Johnny Sack 8397]

17 hours ago, gmr548 said:

Only at entry level, and at the low end at that, would a RN/PT make $50k. An assistant type with lower certification may make that or even less depending on the exact job, but they're also not required to get a four-year degree. Hell, RN's don't have to have a four year degree.

RNs make close to $80k a year on average.  And you can get a degree in it cheap if you go to a public school.

I have a friend who makes around $90k a year at Houston Methodist and her degree cost was minimal.  She went to Prarie View.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

3 hours ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Texas like many states are not setting the next generation up for success.  As taxpayers we should be helping colleges with large subsidies for in-state students, and partially helping out-of-state students. I say partially because there is a decent chance many of the out-of-state students will remain after graduation.

The state also would need to tell the schools to calm down on the overspending especially on unnecessary extras for students. 

Spending on administrators is a huge reason for the spike in costs.  The ratio of admin to faculty has exploded in the last 40 years.

[CooterBrown 18006]

It's almost impossible to waste money on education if you're in the medical field. 

True. Except for vets, if you consider that medical. The salaries are shockingly low for the cost of a degree.

[Brisketexan 105095]

RNs make close to $80k a year on average.  And you can get a degree in it cheap if you go to a public school.
I have a friend who makes around $90k a year at Houston Methodist and her degree cost was minimal.  She went to Prarie View.

Another interesting tangent there on the attractiveness of HBUs. For example, the enrollment at Huston-Tillotson has become more diverse, because an affordable degree is an affordable degree, and the HBUs have remained relatively affordable (I’m guessing that’s tied to the historical relative economic status of their core demographic).
Johnny white guy can get a good and cheap degree from an HBU, so why wouldn’t he?

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

52 minutes ago, JimmyJames said:

To republicans corporations are people whose only responsibility is to make fellow republicans money. After that, responsibility for just about anything goes out the window. 

If you ever said a damn thing that was anything more than some lame BS show away line it would be a first.  

[Johnny Sack 8397]

 

[JimmyJames 12271]

2 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

If you ever said a damn thing that was anything more than some lame BS show away line it would be a first.  

Sir, I’m sorry to disappoint you sir. But on behalf of all burly men with tears in their eyes, I want to thank you for all your great contributions and posts to this website sir. I frankly have never cried in my entire life, even when I was an infant. But your posting excellence has brought my burly ass to tears. Sir. And I think I speak on behalf of this entire board. We all admire you sir. 

[wildcat09 29349]

5 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

If you ever said a damn thing that was anything more than some lame BS show away line it would be a first.  

Every accusation is a confession, example infinity.

[David Dennison 18854]

4 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

 

Those numbers started going down, according to that chart. Do you have any information that isn't nearly a decade old?

[JimmyJames 12271]

4 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

 

Do they give out student loans to public high schools now? Or is that the republicans great next step? 

[JimmyJames 12271]

Elementary school? Think of all the profits to be made for loans to kindergarten students. They’re total suckers. 

[Captainant 27653]

1 minute ago, JimmyJames said:

Elementary school? Think of all the profits to be made for loans to kindergarten students. They’re total suckers. 

have no fear, the devos family is on the case

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

College loans should be low interest, and you should have to sit with a loan officer who talks to you about the amount you're asking for, and feasible the payback will be based on your future earnings potential. That's about it.  

If someone wants to take out a $100k loan, and has the co signer or collateral to cover it, that's their business. It is not the obligation, nor the job of a bank to hold your hand and guide you thru the risks and or rewards of said loan.   I'd rather banks not be in the college loan business, but again personal responsibility, Caveat emptor, whatever you wanna call it.

My earlier comments about wealthy individuals was just that, individuals, not about LLC's or corporations. Normal, smart individuals who made smart choices growing up snd didn't saddle themselves with debt that was probably going  to sink them.

 

 

 

 

 

[Beau Vine 54211]

1 minute ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

College loans should be low interest, and you should have to sit with a loan officer who talks to you about the amount you're asking for, and feasible the payback will be based on your future earnings potential. That's about it.  

If someone wants to take out a $100k loan, and has the co signer or collateral to cover it, that's their business. It is not the obligation, nor the job of a bank to hold your hand and guide you thru the risks and or rewards of said loan.   I'd rather banks not be in the college loan business, but again personal responsibility, Caveat emptor, whatever you wanna call it.

Or, you could expect banks not to make loans that have very little hope of being paid back.  

[JimmyJames 12271]

Make student loans dischargeable in bankruptcy and this entire problem and this entire thread disappears.

Republicans will then be forced to fund higher state run education like the state used to or admit they’re not and explain why not. 

[Laxtonto 12080]

29 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

Spending on administrators is a huge reason for the spike in costs.  The ratio of admin to faculty has exploded in the last 40 years.

Spike in costs are tied to reduction in funding and a massive increase in operating expenses (including additional Admin expenses). 

Change in the number of administrators vs faculty is limited in the grand overview of costs per credit hour vs the cost changes tied to insurance, energy, funding reductions and the like.  The funding gap isnt because they are hiring people to do roles to then potentially free up the faculty to teach more courses, the money coming in is not matching the raise in overall operating costs. I can provide multiple articles in The Chronicle of Higher Ed, or Higher Ed Accountability or the like that show the admin jump is not real as pronounced as people try to portray it.

 

This is just a simple example out of J Higher Ed Accountability

 

 

 

What is considered necessary additions to administrative costs vs superfluous fluff that is just making golden parachute retired walking around positions? At most we are looking at 5 admin per 1k students (to put that in context that is 5 positions for (3.6M - 4.8M in revenue per semester at 300 to 400 per CH for 12 hours enrollment). Many of those are to match many of the federal regulations that have changed since the good old days.  Cleary Act reporting, Diversity and Inclusiveness officers, and the like all have to be there to be in compliance. Who pays for them? The University, how, raise tuition...

The more interesting part is most of the admin roles are at the mid and lower levels to take roles previously filled with faculty that are not necessarily qualified to deal with many of these areas as university enrollments grow larger. Advising, student services, etc are the primary areas of growth. Change out the cost of each administrator at the low level roles such as advising in comparison to adding another course to faculty and see how these numbers could actually balance out.

Admin bloat is a red herring at this point because it fails to address the modern student (especially those that require more IT infrastructure) needs more support staff to make the modern classroom go. Admin staff is going to happen as the learning environment changes. That other professional staff graph is extremely telling if you think about what the modern student needs, how technology has changed and how universities want to have faculty teaching more and doing less administrative duties.

 

 

 

Edited February 11, 2020 by Laxtonto

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

6 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Normal, smart individuals who made smart choices growing up snd didn't saddle themselves with debt that was probably going  to sink them.

[wildcat09 29349]

10 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

College loans should be low interest, and you should have to sit with a loan officer who talks to you about the amount you're asking for, and feasible the payback will be based on your future earnings potential. That's about it.  

If someone wants to take out a $100k loan, and has the co signer or collateral to cover it, that's their business. It is not the obligation, nor the job of a bank to hold your hand and guide you thru the risks and or rewards of said loan.   I'd rather banks not be in the college loan business, but again personal responsibility, Caveat emptor, whatever you wanna call it.

My earlier comments about wealthy individuals was just that, individuals, not about LLC's or corporations. Normal, smart individuals who made smart choices growing up snd didn't saddle themselves with debt that was probably going  to sink them.

 

 

 

 

 

This is legitimately hilarious.

[Pancho 44757]

41 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Another interesting tangent there on the attractiveness of HBUs. For example, the enrollment at Huston-Tillotson has become more diverse, because an affordable degree is an affordable degree, and the HBUs have remained relatively affordable (I’m guessing that’s tied to the historical relative economic status of their core demographic).
Johnny white guy can get a good and cheap degree from an HBU, so why wouldn’t he?

 

This is true.  I was reading about more white people going to HBCUs in articles 15 years ago. 

It’s also part of the reason some HBCUs are leaving behind the traditional HCBU conferences for conferences that have more traditional PWIs.  (Example: Hampton, Tennessee Staten  rumors of Texas Southern, among others)

[Beau Vine 54211]

22 minutes ago, Laxtonto said:

I can provide multiple articles in The Chronicle of Higher Ed, or Higher Ed Accountability or the like that show the admin jump is not real as pronounced as people try to portray it.

I can provide multiple articles by police unions that show that policemen rarely shoot unarmed black men.  

[Beau Vine 54211]

32 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

College loans should be low interest, and you should have to sit with a loan officer who talks to you about the amount you're asking for, and feasible the payback will be based on your future earnings potential. That's about it.  

Perhaps this "loan officer" should also talk with the lender about the same thing?

In fact, it would be amazing if the lender actually employed someone who analyzed the likelihood of the borrower being able to repay the loan, and this person could deny the loan if this probability came out too low!

[elfenix 34230]

overlenders bear no responsibility.

[Incredulity 11664]

 Is the denial of further loans based on "likelihood" of repayment culturally biased?  

[Bateshorn 9927]

2 hours ago, elfenix said:

personal responsibility is for poors.

I feel like this is wedged into the constitution somewhere towards the back.

[Brisketexan 105095]

1 hour ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

My earlier comments about wealthy individuals was just that, individuals, not about LLC's or corporations.

Cool.  I think that 1) students should be allowed to create single member LLCs to fund their education, and 2) lenders should be obligated to lend to the LLC on the same terms as if the student himself had applied.  Because corporations are people too, and it's just good sense.

Right?

[Brisketexan 105095]

14 minutes ago, Bateshorn said:

I feel like this is wedged into the constitution somewhere towards the back.

Naw, man, it's front and center.

[Royalfan5 2354]

As someone who attended a regionally well regarded Private Liberal Arts school in the early 2000's, I'll contribute a few observations. All the theater majors I knew all do pretty well for themselves excepting the ones with crippling substance abuse problems, with all them making a living with their technical skills, not acting. E.g one runs lights for major tours, another coordinates production things at Disney etc, another builds specialty props for movies and whatnot, but the degree gave them networking and experience.

Secondly while my school was expensive for the Midwest on paper, the merit scholarships made it the same as going to the instate flagship. I went that way because I could easily double major in Poli Sci, and Religious studies with a double minor in history and philosophy  and be done in 4 years while doing a bunch of other stuff, and it was a wet campus. The bulk of my student debt was taking a year of law school to figure out I sure as fuck didn't want to be a lawyer. I pivoted to getting a Master's in Ag Econ that was fully funded, and a commodity broker/cattle producer. Now the same school charges a significant premium to the flagship, even with significant merit aid, and they have added a bunch of sports and other activities along with administrators that cost a lot more than just letting students entertain themselves by being a wet campus and having the basic extra-curriculars. Both ways the less achieving kids from better off families pay most of the freight. 

In my experience, the real student loan train wrecks come from the people that pursued graduate degrees that weren't funded and didn't finish. While trades are important, and can certainly provide a great living, we also undersell that many of them are hard as hell on your body, and that much of the upside is in running your own business in the said trade, which is distinctly not for everybody in skill, temperament, risk, and hours. 

In conclusion, if the government and society is happy to soak up risk for many big business and set them up for easy success, maybe doing the same for citizens as they come of age might yield dividends as well. 

 

 

Edited February 11, 2020 by Royalfan5

[workswithseed 2101]

7 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Cool.  I think that 1) students should be allowed to create single member LLCs to fund their education, and 2) lenders should be obligated to lend to the LLC on the same terms as if the student himself had applied.  Because corporations are people too, and it's just good sense.

Right?

I mean that would make sense. The only thing is what is the individual selling?

I'm probably wrong, but don't you have to show that you're producing something for future gains? 

 

Edited February 11, 2020 by workswithseed

[Longhornfan1024 1707]

I've noticed that onboard has failed to respond to my post.  I guess that's because he's a coward who doesn't want to admit that he doesn't hold the people he idolizes to the same standards that he holds poor college kids.  But that's not uncommon for people who lack principle.  

Edited February 11, 2020 by Longhornfan1024

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

13 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Cool.  I think that 1) students should be allowed to create single member LLCs to fund their education, and 2) lenders should be obligated to lend to the LLC on the same terms as if the student himself had applied.  Because corporations are people too, and it's just good sense.

Right?

Yeah no they're not.

[Brisketexan 105095]

2 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

I mean that would make sense. The only thing is what is the individual selling?

I'm probably wrong, but don't you have to show that you're producing something for future gains? 

 

It's an illustration, man.  We do everything we can to create a system that allows people with means to insulate themselves from "personal responsibility."  But if you're an individual without much, "personal responsiblity" is the rock-solid gospel truth.  Personal responsibility for thee, but not for me.

You can be breathtakingly, completely, and utterly stupid -- I mean, 1000X more stupid than someone who goes into debt to get a theater degree -- and the law lets you insulate yourself from any responsibility for that stupidity.  And what's even better, it's stupidity that can victimize other people, too (shareholders, employees, vendors, etc.). Total insulation.  The only way I can get at the individual is if they commit actual fraud.

But for the little people, well, the system doesn't give them any means to insulate themselves from even simple mistakes -- not abject, breathtaking stupidity -- just garden-variety bad judgment.  Nope.  For THEM, it's PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY TIME!

There are two sets of rules in this country.  Poor people have to follow the set with "WHATEVER HAPPENS, YOU'RE FUCKED" on the cover.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

2 minutes ago, Longhornfan1024 said:

I've noticed that onboard has failed to respond to my post.  I guess that's because he's a coward who doesn't want to admit that he doesn't hold the people he idolizes to the same standards that he holds poor college kids.  But that's not uncommon for people who lack principle.  

I'm sorry what the fuck are you gong on about ?  

[Brisketexan 105095]

1 minute ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Yeah no they're not.

Actually, in many ways, they are.  And those ways are expanding by the minute.  Here's a quick general discussion:

https://www.npr.org/2014/07/28/335288388/when-did-companies-become-people-excavating-the-legal-evolution

[Longhornfan1024 1707]

1 minute ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

I'm sorry what the fuck are you gong on about ?  

I was just talking about how you're a coward with no principles.  Thanks for proving my point.

[Bateshorn 9927]

14 minutes ago, Royalfan5 said:

 

In my experience, the real student loan train wrecks come from the people that pursued graduate degrees that weren't funded and didn't finish. While trades are important, and can certainly provide a great living, we also undersell that many of them are hard as hell on your body, and that much of the upside is in running your own business in the said trade, which is distinctly not for everybody in skill, temperament, risk, and hours. 

In conclusion, if the government and society is happy to soak up risk for many big business and set them up for easy success, maybe doing the same for citizens as they come of age might yield dividends as well. 

 

 

This observation is incredibly spot on.  People are always saying "Just become an electrician" 

It is hard as fuck to become an electrician.  If you aren't cut out for 4 year college, you probably aren't cut out for an electrician apprenticeship either.  Good carpentry is incredibly math intensive.  I went to one of the best liberal arts colleges in the country and there's no fucking way I can do the kind of math those guys do on job sites. Sure, you can teach just about any swinging dick to hang dry wall, but that shit will tear your body apart over 30 years (cue the conversation about our nation's lack of comprehensive health care).

Edited February 11, 2020 by Bateshorn

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

WAAAAAH I took out a shit load  of money for a degree that doesn't give me an ROI.

 WAAAAAH they made me do it.  

WAAAAAAHHH  It's everybody elses fault........... waaaaaahhh waaaaaaah..........  

We're so fucked as a nation when it's everybody elses fault for someones lack of due diligence and general common sense.....

[JimmyJames 12271]

1 hour ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

If you ever said a damn thing that was anything more than some lame BS show away line it would be a first.  

Is your post right above this an example of how I should be posting? 

[JimmyJames 12271]

5 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

WAAAAAH I took out a shit load  of money for a degree that doesn't give me an ROI.

 WAAAAAH they made me do it.  

WAAAAAAHHH  It's everybody elses fault........... waaaaaahhh waaaaaaah..........  

We're so fucked as a nation when it's everybody elses fault for someones lack of due diligence and general common sense.....

Good talk Russ. 

[Beau Vine 54211]

When did OnBoard turn into slorch?

[JimmyJames 12271]

7 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

WAAAAAH I took out a shit load  of money for a degree that doesn't give me an ROI.

 WAAAAAH they made me do it.  

WAAAAAAHHH  It's everybody elses fault........... waaaaaahhh waaaaaaah..........  

We're so fucked as a nation when it's everybody elses fault for someones lack of due diligence and general common sense.....

Do you take personal responsibility for this stupid ass post? 

[yoladu 4093]

2 hours ago, Longhornfan1024 said:

Personal responsibility.  That's interesting. 

I don''t know this person.

I know nothing about it. 

I have not spoken to him much.

This is not a man I know well.

I had nothing to do with her.

I barely knew him.

I never even talked to the guy.

I didn’t know who he was.

I don’t know what they do.

[JBJ 3654]

 

1 hour ago, elfenix said:

overlenders bear no responsibility.

Something like 90-95% of student debt comes from federal loans.  Private loans are not the issue here.

----

As to the "it was some much cheaper back then crowd".  Gen X (defined as 35-49) holds $37B/year-age of debt still.  Millenials are probably starting off better at $41B/year-age for ages 24-35.

"/year-age" - the study I'm looking at has 15 years in Gen X and only 12 years in Gen Y.

It be interesting to track these numbers through time and per student.

Edited February 11, 2020 by JBJ

[Js1 85310]

6 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

When did OnBoard turn into slorch?

This is the same dude who would post 5 things consecutively daily on the Hillary will never be president thread, then mock everyone else as a triggered snowflake. 

[Brisketexan 105095]

8 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

We're so fucked as a nation when it's everybody elses fault for someones lack of due diligence and general common sense.....

We fucking elected, as president, a man who has had his businesses declare bankruptcy numerous times, stiffs contractors at a legendary rate, etc.

We have passed laws that insulate parties who commit wrongdoing from paying for the damages caused by their wrongdoing.

Jesus Christ, we've insulated any person or entity of means from the consequences of their decisions.  

We ALL, as a society, collectively bear the costs for their wild irresponsibility.  They don't.  We do.

Consequences, and responsibility, are for poor folks. And poor folks only.  And don't you fuckers forget it.  

Your absolute blindness to the double standard would be laughable if it wasn't also the pervasive approach that dominates our society.

[Nivek 16923]

You're assuming that going to college means you come out educated.  
There's a difference between a college degree and a college education and that difference has gotten bigger and bigger.  
I see many juniors and seniors who are so devoid of critical thinking and communication skills that it makes me hate my job.  

It is not their fault they were taught to regurgitate as opposed to apply critical thought. I remember teaching labs to new batches of students whom collectively had the highest test scores. They were fantastic writers and excellent at memorizing. Poor at application of knowledge.

[Nivek 16923]

This.  Interviews last week were a beating.  I put the job on ice and I'm going to take another look after graduation.

Hiring?

[Longhornfan1024 1707]

19 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

WAAAAAH I took out a shit load  of money for a degree that doesn't give me an ROI.

 WAAAAAH they made me do it.  

WAAAAAAHHH  It's everybody elses fault........... waaaaaahhh waaaaaaah..........  

We're so fucked as a nation when it's everybody elses fault for someones lack of due diligence and general common sense.....

I see that onboard has degenerated into a blubbering mess after being faced with his own cowardice and hypocrisy.