NPR story on student loans

[tantric superman 4667]

I'm not sure why everyone is getting riled up.

You need to repay your loans - I'm fine with that.

We should make it easy for poor people to get higher education -- whether they want to study Italian Renaissance Theater or Science. Not sure why anyone would have  problem with this.  If the Italian Renaissance degree doesn't pay off, we should make it relatively easy for the guy to become a plumber.

This is especially critical as technology overwhelms us, we become even more of a service economy, and we have a greater likelihood of doing good or evil with our increasing free time.

 

 

[wildcat09 29355]

28 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

WAAAAAH I took out a shit load  of money for a degree that doesn't give me an ROI.

 WAAAAAH they made me do it.  

WAAAAAAHHH  It's everybody elses fault........... waaaaaahhh waaaaaaah..........  

We're so fucked as a nation when it's everybody elses fault for someones lack of due diligence and general common sense.....

This is just Republican mad libs. 

[Nice Guy Eddie 13515]

2 hours ago, JimmyJames said:

Make student loans dischargeable in bankruptcy and this entire problem and this entire thread disappears.

Republicans will then be forced to fund higher state run education like the state used to or admit they’re not and explain why not. 

Make the loan process work like any other loan, where the borrower has to provide some evidence they can pay it back, and the problem also goes away by rarely providing a loan in the first place.

[workswithseed 2112]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

It's an illustration, man.  We do everything we can to create a system that allows people with means to insulate themselves from "personal responsibility."  But if you're an individual without much, "personal responsiblity" is the rock-solid gospel truth.  Personal responsibility for thee, but not for me.

You can be breathtakingly, completely, and utterly stupid -- I mean, 1000X more stupid than someone who goes into debt to get a theater degree -- and the law lets you insulate yourself from any responsibility for that stupidity.  And what's even better, it's stupidity that can victimize other people, too (shareholders, employees, vendors, etc.). Total insulation.  The only way I can get at the individual is if they commit actual fraud.

But for the little people, well, the system doesn't give them any means to insulate themselves from even simple mistakes -- not abject, breathtaking stupidity -- just garden-variety bad judgment.  Nope.  For THEM, it's PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY TIME!

There are two sets of rules in this country.  Poor people have to follow the set with "WHATEVER HAPPENS, YOU'RE FUCKED" on the cover.

I always wished that companies back in 2008 didn't get the stimulus package, cause it didn't matter if we did or did not give them that money, the people would be still given the bill, but at least the companies that went to DC to suck the Congress dick would also get hurt.

It would be personal responsibility to everyone. Some pain now to become smarter not to do that again.

 

[Brisketexan 105161]

1 minute ago, workswithseed said:

I always wished that companies back in 2008 didn't get the stimulus package, cause it didn't matter if we did or did not give them that money, the people would be still given the bill, but at least the companies that went to DC to suck the Congress dick would also get hurt.

It would be personal responsibility to everyone. Some pain now to become smarter not to do that again.

 

The sooner you realize that pain is only for people who don't have the money and means to work the system, the sooner you'll realize how and why this country is the way it is.  Meritocracy, capitalism, personal responsibility -- they're worst than tropes, they're flat-out lies.

I'm dead serious.  And it's a terrible realization -- it kind of turns this belief many of us grew up with, that this is a great nation, a shining city on a hill and all that, into a pile of shit.  And man, that's demoralizing.  But it doesn't make it any less true.

[JimmyJames 12271]

15 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Make the loan process work like any other loan, where the borrower has to provide some evidence they can pay it back, and the problem also goes away by rarely providing a loan in the first place.

Yeah this too. Your position is simply common sense which used to exist in this country and its banking industry. Mine is to at least attempt to force the corrupt banking fuckers issuing these loans to use common sense or face the consequences for their “personal responsibility.” 

Personally I say pass a law declaring all student loan debt invalid from this day forward and watch and laugh while the corrupt student loan industry crashes and burns. Good. 

[JimmyJames 12271]

I mean its not like the economy is going to grind to a halt because students who don’t make any money can’t get their student loans. 

[elfenix 34328]

16 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

become smarter not to do that again.

[workswithseed 2112]

3 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

The sooner you realize that pain is only for people who don't have the money and means to work the system, the sooner you'll realize how and why this country is the way it is.  Meritocracy, capitalism, personal responsibility -- they're worst than tropes, they're flat-out lies.

I'm dead serious.  And it's a terrible realization -- it kind of turns this belief many of us grew up with, that this is a great nation, a shining city on a hill and all that, into a pile of shit.  And man, that's demoralizing.  But it doesn't make it any less true.

I don't think we got here on lies, I think we found truths that has been pretty clear. 

Something changed since 1776 to today. We threw ourselves to the wolves, and came out tougher cause of it, now we're bloated and like a middle aged man going through a midlife crisis who lost to exactly what they were when they were younger.

[elfenix 34328]

14 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Meritocracy

let's not forget that this word is actually satirical. 

[JimmyJames 12271]

1 hour ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

WAAAAAH I took out a shit load  of money for a degree that doesn't give me an ROI.

 WAAAAAH they made me do it.  

WAAAAAAHHH  It's everybody elses fault........... waaaaaahhh waaaaaaah..........  

We're so fucked as a nation when it's everybody elses fault for someones lack of due diligence and general common sense.....

Where did you run to? Did I scare you off? 

[workswithseed 2112]

5 minutes ago, elfenix said:

Blow and hookers are fun.

[Brisketexan 105161]

1 minute ago, workswithseed said:

I don't think we got here on lies, I think we found truths that has been pretty clear. 

Something changed since 1776 to today. We threw ourselves to the wolves, and came out tougher cause of it, now we're bloated and like a middle aged man going through a midlife crisis who lost to exactly what they were when they were younger.

Worse.  We're old men lying about what badasses we were when we were younger.

Remember when we were younger, and awesome?

We've never come to grips with our original sins.  We just lie about them, and create this myth that we were founded as some great noble nation reflecting the providence of the evangelical Christian god.

Where did we go wrong?  From the very beginning.  And to the extent that we've made ANY progress, the dominant group in this country regrets it, and would like to take it all back.

 

[sidis 9832]

39 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

I always wished that companies back in 2008 didn't get the stimulus package, cause it didn't matter if we did or did not give them that money, the people would be still given the bill, but at least the companies that went to DC to suck the Congress dick would also get hurt.

It would be personal responsibility to everyone. Some pain now to become smarter not to do that again.

 

you openly support a political party determined to repeat precisely the same mistakes.  what the fuck are you talking about?

[JimmyJames 12271]

39 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Worse.  We're old men lying about what badasses we were when we were younger.

Remember when we were younger, and awesome?

We've never come to grips with our original sins.  We just lie about them, and create this myth that we were founded as some great noble nation reflecting the providence of the evangelical Christian god.

Where did we go wrong?  From the very beginning.  And to the extent that we've made ANY progress, the dominant group in this country regrets it, and would like to take it all back.

 

All true. But unlike you claim you have, not a reason to give up all hope. Coming to grips with the reality is always the first step. We as a country haven’t reached that step, yet. 

[workswithseed 2112]

Brisket, what do you think would need to be done to get rid of our past? To cleanse our nation of its past sins?

 

31 minutes ago, sidis said:

you openly support a political party determined to repeat precisely the same mistakes.  what the fuck are you talking about?

I support the Bull Moose Party since they had balls to break up monopolies.

Same here, fuck the too big to fail thinking.

[JimmyJames 12271]

2 hours ago, Longhornfan1024 said:

I see that onboard has degenerated into a blubbering mess after being faced with his own cowardice and hypocrisy.  

He’s given up for the night. He’ll regroup and come back after the smoke has cleared and a bunch of his socks have given him positive rep for posting about his cooking recipes. 

[sidis 9832]

27 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

Brisket, what do you think would need to be done to get rid of our past? To cleanse our nation of its past sins?

 

I support the Bull Moose Party since they had balls to break up monopolies.

Same here, fuck the too big to fail thinking.

Jesus Christ you really are dumb. Who has led the charge to undermine Dodd-frank, loosened regulations on derivatives, and has pushed an antitrust environment of allowing sprint and T-Mobile to merge?

Edited February 12, 2020 by sidis

[JBJ 3657]

 

1 hour ago, JimmyJames said:

Yeah this too. Your position is simply common sense which used to exist in this country and its banking industry. Mine is to at least attempt to force the corrupt banking fuckers issuing these loans to use common sense or face the consequences for their “personal responsibility.” 

Personally I say pass a law declaring all student loan debt invalid from this day forward and watch and laugh while the corrupt student loan industry crashes and burns. Good. 

By banking industry you of course mean the Department of Education?

[gmr548 16584]

8 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

 

One fascinating and chilling aspect of the whole thing:  starting salaries in most every field are a ton higher, like 3-4x, than they were when UT was 4-8-12-24 bucks an hour.

Uh, I'm gonna need to see some data on that because that sounds like bullshit.

[gmr548 16584]

39 minutes ago, sidis said:

Jesus Christ you really are dumb. Who has led the charge to undermine Dodd-frank, loosened regulations on derivatives, and has pushed an antitrust environment of allowing sprint and T-Mobile to merge?

That would be Barack HUSSEIN Obama

[JimmyJames 12271]

8 minutes ago, JBJ said:

 

By banking industry you of course mean the Department of Education?

Oh good. So our own government is fucking everyone over when it comes to student loans. Good to know. 

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/one-company-will-now-handle-close-to-half-of-all-student-loan-payments-2018-02-09

The good news is at least that will make it easier to fuck over all the companies that are currently fucking all of us over in the student loan industry by changing the laws to fuck them over instead. 

[JBJ 3657]

32 minutes ago, JimmyJames said:

Oh good. So our own government is fucking everyone over when it comes to student loans. Good to know. 

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/one-company-will-now-handle-close-to-half-of-all-student-loan-payments-2018-02-09

The good news is at least that will make it easier to fuck over all the companies that are currently fucking all of us over in the student loan industry by changing the laws to fuck them over instead. 

So you think payment processors approve, underwrite, and issue student loans?

Do you also call to complain to Visa when the shoes you ordered online don't fit?

[JimmyJames 12271]

7 minutes ago, JBJ said:

So you think payment processors approve, underwrite, and issue student loans?

Do you also call to complain to Visa when the shoes you ordered online don't fit?

This is what you are looking for. The government and the banks are in it together. So comforting to know that both the government and private banks are fucking everyone over together to make money. Or did the government buy all those loans for free? 

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/081216/who-actually-owns-student-loan-debt.asp

[Rougarou 594]

What is mostly fascinating about this bubble is that you have to assume there are a lot of people who have the means or ability to pay down or at least some of their debt who aren't because they are just going to wait out (and hope) that they are just written off and forgiven. I can see how that would anger and upset a lot of people who sacrificed and skrimped and saved and made a priority to pay back their student debt. I think if we do a forgiveness program we are also going to have to implement a "reward program" and actually give a rebate or refund to those who did pay off their loans or else there will be lots of righteous indignation.

I see it asked a lot on finance and business forums, "Do I take the State School MBA for 25k (or free) or do I take the M7 MBA for $250k debt?" and I think in established and benchmarked careers like IB, PE, consulting, etc. if you can show a plan to pay back that 250k and your marginal gains from joining a big bank and making a million bucks because you went to Stanford or Harvard or MIT is better than going to UGA or UT or whatever and make $250k.

My buddy had his heart set on going to Vanderbilt and he got in. He got a free ride to UGA as part of their state program they have if you are a resident. His parents forced him to go to UGA rather than pay out of state at Vandy. That is the kind of parenting and guidance that needs to be given, on the individual level. 15 years removed he laughs at how stupid he almost was; we need more laughing at foolishness in hindsight rather than being sad about regret.

[JBJ 3657]

The government has always served as underwriter and guarantor.  There's been back and forth with Sally and private origination, but they are all (for the 90-95% of student loans that are federal loans) guaranteed by the federal government.  About a decade ago a few politicians decided to make the government the primary originator.  That's the reason for the shift in ownership in your posted article.  I don't think that's a huge deal itself. 

But along with that came higher loan values and lower loan requirements.  Tuition costs and student debt were already going the wrong direction, but that put the accelerator on the floor.

The small percent of private loan industry (5-10%) is made up of mostly post-grads, working adults, and rich people.  They actually are underwritten based on expected return: college choice, field of study, job prospects, and the like.  They are a worse form of debt and generally higher rates, but they also rarely default.

---

I personally don't think a purely credit/return/merit-based (private) approach nor a quasi-universal (federal) approach is best. 

But it's difficult to argue against the debt-bubble and tuition inflation falling squarely at the feet of the unchecked volume of federal loans. 

Edited February 12, 2020 by JBJ

[Bama Chick 28596]

Is that what I'm saying? 
Or am I saying don't go into $100k debt to get that undergrad theater degree? 
Hmm, I guess I should've been more clear about that. Oh, wait.

The point is it shouldn’t take $100K of debt to get ANY degree.

[Rougarou 594]

Personal story:

I had the opportunity to take a partial scholarship and have my parents pay the delta, for Texas Tech University undergrad business school debt free. I declined and opted to take out about $50k in student loans to attend our fine school, not in the business school.

Which was right? I honestly do not know to this day. I don't believe I learned more or better things academically at UT then I would have at TTU despite our ribbing and poking fun. I do think there is value in being in community with generally a smarter and ambitious set of people for networking and social-learning and things like that. It's hard to judge, but likely I would say I probably made the imprudent decision and it just worked out. But really, is $50k really a big deal when you get a good job and do well, etc. I mean how many of us have $50k vehicles sitting in our driveway we pay off over 5 or 6 years? Why not with education? 

That said, you should run your education as an investment or a business. You should have a plan or a roadmap to where you can show profit. If you can't map out how you are going to pay back debt and be earning a good living based off the loan/investment you are making, then you shouldn't do it. Even if it's not perfect. We like to bandy around the English Lit and Theatre Dance majors of the world (and by the way, I couldn't even get an A in TD301 or whatever the "blow off" theatre class was at UT-- that class was a) not easy and b) actually super interesting), but if you can take your major and map out an entry level job and ideal career path within some bounds of sanity and reason, then let your freak flag fly!

There absolutely is a difference as mentioned when talking about elite institutions and the pipeline to jobs making real money that are worth the cost of investment, but they are so niche and slim it's not worth discussing. A better use of time has been those who have rightly exposed the crux of the matter: poor people who take out a ton of money to finance a degree from a worthless, for-profit/online school whose job prospects remain pretty much the exact same regardless of whether they would have taken out the loans or not. In that sense, their debt to income ratio has been drastically and negatively impacted with no gain outside of a theoretical one. The problem being, not that they didn't hold a degree, that they don't have soft skills or communication skills or hygienic skills (non-STEM lol), that could get them a salaried job with a career ascension path. They would have been better off going to a finishing school.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

There should be a course in personal finance for about one hour per week starting in 3rd grade.

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

14 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

There should be a course in personal responsibility for about one hour per week starting in 3rd grade.

amen, brother. amen.

[Rougarou 594]

Why not both?

If public school (disclaimer: my kids do not go to one, so feel free to tell me to go suck an egg and private schools aren't much better at this stuff) is supposed to be a publicly funded good that is meant to educate and empower our populace, there really should be some courses to teach good habits. We teach good physical habits (PE) and explore arts and such, we need to mandate some personal finance and responsibility as well because a lot of these kids aren't being taught at home. 

Edited February 12, 2020 by Rougarou

[High Plains Drifter 11050]

On 2/11/2020 at 3:40 PM, Onboard 2.0 said:

WAAAAAH I took out a shit load  of money for a degree that doesn't give me an ROI.

 WAAAAAH they made me do it.  

WAAAAAAHHH  It's everybody elses fault........... waaaaaahhh waaaaaaah..........  

We're so fucked as a nation when it's everybody elses fault for someones lack of due diligence and general common sense.....

 

 You should just stop. At this point, people are either laughing at you or turning away in embarrassment.

[Js1 85439]

4 minutes ago, High Plains Drifter said:

 

 You should just stop. At this point, people are either laughing at you or turning away in embarrassment.

Ah, the two outcomes of a Surlyite's night with a woman. 

[Captainant 27682]

1 hour ago, Rougarou said:

Why not both?

If public school (disclaimer: my kids do not go to one, so feel free to tell me to go suck an egg and private schools aren't much better at this stuff) is supposed to be a publicly funded good that is meant to educate and empower our populace, there really should be some courses to teach good habits. We teach good physical habits (PE) and explore arts and such, we need to mandate some personal finance and responsibility as well because a lot of these kids aren't being taught at home. 

Have you seen the republican voting base? It's in their interest to keep education and fiscal responsibility skills as minimal as possible. 

If you aren't struggling to survive, you'll be less likely to believe those damn mexicans are coming to steal your job. 

There's a reason trump "loves the uneducated"

[Nivek 16946]

3 hours ago, Johnny Sack said:

There should be a course in personal finance for about one hour per week starting in 3rd grade.

personable responsibility! Welfare caddy drivers!

[tx 3 putt 77130]

The real issue is what universities / colleges / trade schools are charging for said degrees. 

ive hired heavily from trade schools, that’s why I included them on that list 

[Johnny Sack 8397]

2 hours ago, Captainant said:

Have you seen the republican voting base? It's in their interest to keep education and fiscal responsibility skills as minimal as possible. 

If you aren't struggling to survive, you'll be less likely to believe those damn mexicans are coming to steal your job. 

There's a reason trump "loves the uneducated"

Mexicans are more likely to take a Democrat’s job
 

[Nice Guy Eddie 13515]

10 hours ago, Johnny Sack said:

Mexicans are more likely to take a Democrat’s job
 

Would be interesting to see this along with education levels because some of the data points would disagree. Trumps main support groups were low education, elderly, and white people. 2 of those 3 generally have low incomes by themselves. Add white to either the low educated or elderly label, and I doubt the average salary immediate pops to 250k.

even in highly red states like Wyoming, trump lost the college educated vote. And education is usually tied to higher salaries but perhaps teachers or other govt workers pull college educated salaries down some.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

17 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Would be interesting to see this along with education levels because some of the data points would disagree. Trumps main support groups were low education, elderly, and white people. 2 of those 3 generally have low incomes by themselves. Add white to either the low educated or elderly label, and I doubt the average salary immediate pops to 250k.

even in highly red states like Wyoming, trump lost the college educated vote. And education is usually tied to higher salaries but perhaps teachers or other govt workers pull college educated salaries down some.

There are a lot of voters with worthless degrees and advanced degrees with a shitload of student debt with low incomes in those first three income demographics.  Doesn’t take a genius to know who they will be voting for.  

Also, academia is where a lot it advanced degrees are.  Dems own that block almost 100 percent.  I don’t blame them for voting that way.  That’s where their pay comes from.  

Edited February 13, 2020 by Johnny Sack

[Johnny Sack 8397]

Government under the last administration forced banks out, guaranteed loans and amazingly enough, colleges went buck wild raising costs.  Schools are fleecing parents and tax payers, chanting make it ‘free’ so they can charge more and have the bloated administrator class live like kings.  We don't need diversity departments with 100 employees.  The explosion in the university administrative class is basically a make work program for liberals with worthless degrees.

I always laugh at that Maxine waters clip. "So what are you bankers going to do to help us?!"

Jamie Dimon: "The government took over and we haven't been making student loans since 2010."

https://youtu.be/a-1NlK_c3ag

 

[wildcat09 29355]

7 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

Government under the last administration forced banks out, guaranteed loans and amazingly enough, colleges went buck wild raising costs.  Schools are fleecing parents and tax payers, chanting make it ‘free’ so they can charge more and have the bloated administrator class live like kings.  We don't need diversity departments with 100 employees.  The explosion in the university administrative class is basically a make work program for liberals with worthless degrees.

I always laugh at that Maxine waters clip. "So what are you bankers going to do to help us?!"

Jamie Dimon: "The government took over and we haven't been making student loans since 2010."

https://youtu.be/a-1NlK_c3ag

 

The government has been guaranteeing student loans since 1965.

[BradInATX 9208]

15 hours ago, Johnny Sack said:

Mexicans are more likely to take a Democrat’s job
 

 

Congrats, Johnny Sack. With this infographic, you've proven that young people vote Democrat and old people vote Republican!

Now do by education level.

[wildcat09 29355]

1 minute ago, BradInATX said:

 

Congrats, Johnny Sack. With this infographic, you've proven that young people vote Democrat and old people vote Republican!

Now do by education level.

He's also proven that all of the racism from the right isn't actually just economic uncertainty.

[Doc Sam Beckett 5793]

18 hours ago, Rougarou said:

Why not both?

If public school (disclaimer: my kids do not go to one, so feel free to tell me to go suck an egg and private schools aren't much better at this stuff) is supposed to be a publicly funded good that is meant to educate and empower our populace, there really should be some courses to teach good habits. We teach good physical habits (PE) and explore arts and such, we need to mandate some personal finance and responsibility as well because a lot of these kids aren't being taught at home. 

There used to be. My dad had to take an etiquette class in high school that went into areas like how to properly dine in a nice restaurant. By the time I got to high school wood shop was gone and metal shop was on its last leg. If it ain't being tested by the state, then that subject is SOL. 

[elfenix 34328]

note: financial literacy and education doesn't seem to have any impact on decision making:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/259763070_Financial_Literacy_Financial_Education_and_Downstream_Financial_Behaviors

[Parliament 14263]

Attitudes like this are exactly how you drive normal people to vote for President Trump.  Plenty of folks out there, young and old, who are happy to pay their own bills.  Many of them vote for Donald Trump and the like.  Mr. Smith lives in a bubble.

 

[Pancho 44860]

People who voted for trump are not “normal.”

[gmr548 16584]

Attitudes like this are exactly how you drive normal people to vote for President Trump.  Plenty of folks out there, young and old, who are happy to pay their own bills.  Many of them vote for Donald Trump and the like.  Mr. Smith lives in a bubble.
 

If we accept your premise for argument’s sake, it says a lot about this country that a conclusion that is fairly obvious when applying basic math is beyond the reach of so many “normal” people, and that their values support socialism for the rich and corporate sector, but individualistic capitalism for anyone else.

[wildcat09 29355]

52 minutes ago, Parliament said:

Attitudes like this are exactly how you drive normal people to vote for President Trump.  Plenty of folks out there, young and old, who are happy to pay their own bills.  Many of them vote for Donald Trump and the like.  Mr. Smith lives in a bubble.

 

Did you bitch when Trump gave enormous subsidies to giant agribusinesses? Did you bitch when the GOP slashed taxes on the wealthiest Americans (pick which time) and exploded the deficit? Did you bitch when the government gave about $2.3 trillion to businesses when covid hit without any condition that they spend that money on keeping people employed?

No? Then fuck off.

[Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand 13585]

1 hour ago, Parliament said:

Attitudes like this are exactly how you drive normal people to vote for President Trump.  Plenty of folks out there, young and old, who are happy to pay their own bills.  Many of them vote for Donald Trump and the like.  Mr. Smith lives in a bubble.

 

Almost all the Trumpers I know well irl have outstanding medical bills they never intend to pay.