NPR story on student loans

[JBJ 3649]

Pretty much every major has some sort of career path, and I'd agree that not all education should be strictly vocational.

The problem is that the quantity of careers are abundant for human calculators and limited for literature buffs.  And easily accessible federal loans are creating a debt and workforce bubble in the latter. 

A compounding issue is that one path is also much easier to enroll in and graduate from.  For those who simply want to get a degree, they are largely choosing to get one in something less useful.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

Just now, JBJ said:

Pretty much every major has some sort of career path, and I'd agree that not all education should be strictly vocational.

The problem is that the quantity of careers are abundant for human calculators and limited for literature buffs.  And easily accessible federal loans are creating a debt and workforce bubble in the latter. 

A compounding issue is that one path is also much easier to enroll in and graduate from.  For those who simply want to get a degree, they are largely choosing to get one in something less useful.

Yers and no.  Smart folks usually find a way to succeed.  

I remember the movie Max Dugan returns, he's counseling his grand son on the best degree to get in college, he suggests philosophy.  

The grandson asks if there's money to be made in philosophy.

Max responds, "Oh yeah, if you have the right one".  A bit of sarcasm of course.

[TwiceHorn 31283]

11 hours ago, wildcat09 said:

There’s a whole lot of “not everyone should go to college” elitism going on here. We’ve got a ton of problems in our country, but too many people are educated sure as shit isn’t one of them. 

Elitism or not, there are a lot of people that go to college that have no interest in it and do not excel at it, including elites.  And you know damn well it's true because you knew tons of them in high school and college.

Now, I suppose those people do pick up some education by default, and it may help their career prospects some, but I'm not sure how much is a societal benefit.

And to the extent those people externalize the cost of their education, it's probably a waste.

Additionally, when/if we go to free college for "everyone," there's going to be rationing like GCSE in UK and similar elsewhere, and that is even more elitist, ultimately.

[BradInATX 9208]

12 hours ago, Xian said:

Many nurses do not go 100k In debt. Plenty of great programs at inexpensive schools 

Yeah, and they make significantly more than the 50-60k number quoted as well.

It's almost impossible to waste money on education if you're in the medical field. 

[tantric superman 4667]

15 hours ago, Asithappens said:

Lawyers? Seriously? Unless you're going to a top, top tier school it's not worth it if you have to take out loans. Probably not worth it even if you don't have to take out loans. 

Lawyers made a median salary of $120,910 in 2018. The best-paid 25 percent made $182,490 that year, while the lowest-paid 25 percent made $79,160. (US News and World Report)

Yes, law school is silly now, but I know a lot of lawyers in Dallas, I'm the poorest of all that I know, and I'm pretty confident that less than 10% make below 200K.

There is probably a loan cutoff point, but given that one can save a million bucks by not raising kids, loans for law school seem pretty well worth it.

 

 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

Just now, TwiceHorn said:

Elitism or not, there are a lot of people that go to college that have no interest in it and do not excel at it, including elites.  And you know damn well it's true because you knew tons of them in high school and college.

Now, I suppose those people do pick up some education by default, and it may help their career prospects some, but I'm not sure how much is a societal benefit.

And to the extent those people externalize the cost of their education, it's probably a waste.

Additionally, when/if we go to free college for "everyone," there's going to be rationing like GCSE in UK and similar elsewhere, and that is even more elitist, ultimately.

Skilled trade vocational school is not not getting an education.  I know plenty of contractors, electricians, plumbers, and welders who make serious coin, have lots of toys, and are probably set for retirement. College is not the end all be al and in not way indicates a person actual intelligence or success potential.  We have a serious serious lack of skilled trade labor in the country.  That's gonna bite us in the ass.

The you have to get a college degree mantra of the 70's 80's, and in to the 90's was probably created by marketing firms for colleges around the country.

[TwiceHorn 31283]

11 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

Yeah, and they make significantly more than the 50-60k number quoted as well.

It's almost impossible to waste money on education if you're in the medical field. 

Wait, wut.  

 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

6 minutes ago, tantric superman said:

 

There is probably a loan cutoff point, but given that one can save a million bucks by not raising kids, loans for law school seem pretty well worth it.

 

 

I'd rather be middle class and have the kids.

[Incredulity 11555]

1 minute ago, TwiceHorn said:

Wait, wut.  

 

owned.

[tantric superman 4667]

I think there should be loan forgiveness if the is school failure or fraud involved.  Other than that, that's just the way it goes.

Increased educational opportunity should be resolved by need based grants.   And relatively free public universities.

Grants and tuition should be based solely on need. 

In state tuition for my kids should cost at least 25K per year at UT.  Because I don't have a need for a lower tuition.  Once we make things so that poor kids who want to work can go and get even a shitty liberal arts degree, then we can work on making life for me and people who earn what I earn easier.       

[hayden_horn 11360]

13 hours ago, gmr548 said:

In most states, the biggest single driver of tuition increases at public institutions is state funding cuts. Across the country, tuition increases closely mirror cuts in public funding.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/fancy-dorms-arent-the-main-reason-tuition-is-skyrocketing/

https://www.demos.org/research/pulling-higher-ed-ladder-myth-and-reality-crisis-college-affordability

https://www.mhec.org/sites/default/files/resources/mhec_affordability_series7_20180730_2.pdf - Also takes an interesting look at the dynamics of net tuition vs full sticker price. Long but worth a look

 

 

 

here is another great article on the subject. it's long, but it highlights how the tuition deregulation in 2003 has led to costs spiraling up:

https://alcalde.texasexes.org/2019/01/looking-at-higher-education-funding-in-texas-and-how-we-got-here/

Quote

One thing is clear: since deregulation, every Texan attending college in-state has seen their tuition bill increase. Between 2003 and 2017, the statewide average total academic charges increased 138 percent. At the same time, state investment in higher education declined by six percent when adjusted for inflation. Since 1984, the state general revenue that UT Austin receives has declined by 35 percent, as of 2017.

“When [deregulation] occurred, members of legislature came to understand that for whatever reasons they didn’t want or weren’t able to fund higher education at certain levels, schools could make it up,” Paredes says.

i went to school at texas from 96-00. my tuition per liberal arts semester was roughly $1300 for a full 15 hours, give or take for core science labs and the like.

now?

Quote

For academic year 2018-2019, the undergraduate tuition & fees at The University of Texas at Austin is $10,610 for Texas residents 

jesus christ

[BradInATX 9208]

10 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Wait, wut.  

 

 

You don't think 70,000 to 80,000 is significantly higher than 50,000 to 60,000?

You obviously didn't spend your money on a math degree.

 

  

8 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

owned.

 

lmao. You're a fucking dunce.

Edited February 11, 2020 by BradInATX

[tantric superman 4667]

1 minute ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

I'd rather be middle class and have the kids.

The seemingly happiest people I know are married professional homosexuals with no kids.  Seemingly unlimited travel budgets and no worries.

[wildcat09 29260]

3 minutes ago, tantric superman said:

I think there should be loan forgiveness if the is school failure or fraud involved.  Other than that, that's just the way it goes.

Increased educational opportunity should be resolved by need based grants.   And relatively free public universities.

Grants and tuition should be based solely on need. 

In state tuition for my kids should cost at least 25K per year at UT.  Because I don't have a need for a lower tuition.  Once we make things so that poor kids who want to work can go and get even a shitty liberal arts degree, then we can work on making life for me and people who earn what I earn easier.       

Why should what's the modern equivalent of a high school degree be so expensive? We've been fucking around with means testing all sorts of shit for the past few decades and it only seems to make everything worse.  We had a nice system not that long ago. Everyone paid a little more in taxes, the states actually mostly sufficiently funded their universities, and nearly everyone's kids could afford college, even if some had to work a summer job to pay their way through. Sure it could've been improved upon and we should strive for something better, but we have evidence in my own lifetime (and I'm in my earlyish 30s), certainly in yours, that at least that much is possible. 

For fuck's sake, some of the older posters here grew up watching us send a man to the goddamn moon and now they're just certain that we can't build a better education system. It's pathetic.

[SimonBolivar 10932]

1 minute ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Skilled trade vocational school is not not getting an education.  I know plenty of contractors, electricians, plumbers, and welders who make serious coin, have lots of toys, and are probably set for retirement. College is not the end all be al and in not way indicates a person actual intelligence or success potential.  We have a serious serious lack of skilled trade labor in the country.  That's gonna bite us in the ass.

The you have to get a college degree mantra of the 70's 80's, and in to the 90's was probably created by marketing firms for colleges around the country.

I work near a trade college and there is pretty good money to be made in just getting your associates here. I think part of the problem is the image that blue collar workers have in this country. Right or wrong, they're presented as fat, backwards, and generally unappealing. That leaves most that have "it" looking for avenues outside of plumbing, auto repair, or electrical work even if there is plenty of money to be had in those fields. A big part of our cultural malaise comes from the importance that your work has in your identity as an American. Sure it is what you do for 8+ hours a day, but it shouldn't define you.

[tantric superman 4667]

1 minute ago, wildcat09 said:

Why should what's the modern equivalent of a high school degree be so expensive? We've been fucking around with means testing all sorts of shit for the past few decades and it only seems to make everything worse.  We had a nice system not that long ago. Everyone paid a little more in taxes, the states actually mostly sufficiently funded their universities, and nearly everyone's kids could afford college, even if some had to work a summer job to pay their way through. Sure it could've been improved upon and we should strive for something better, but we have evidence in my own lifetime (and I'm in my earlyish 30s), certainly in yours, that at least that much is possible. 

For fuck's sake, some of the older posters here grew up watching us send a man to the goddamn moon and now they're just certain that we can't build a better education system. It's pathetic.

I don;'t think there is anything inconsistent in arguing we need to figure out how to bring the cost of higher education down and at the same time make it available for all citizens.

I do think given the inequities in education and opportunity, we should worry about helping the economically disadvantaged.  As long as their is inequity, I am not worried about the wealthy doing some subsiding via taxes or increased tuition/fees.

[Bateshorn 9905]

So, as somebody who is going through this with my kid right now, there are some misunderstandings of the way college financing work.  First, if you qualify for financial aid under FAFSA, you MUST (unless you a basically subsistence poor) take Federal Direct Subsizdized and Unsubsidized Loans (which totally about $5500 your freshman year) before need aid is disbursed. You might also receive Pell grants if your income is low enough.  These are not Fed Plus loans or Private loans that become 6 figure monsters, still almost all students will graduate with some debt.

My son has a generous 529 owned by his grandmother (which means it's off the books till it distributes).  Because he is getting a small amount of need aid in addition to merit aid, he will graduate with some student loan debt.  It's not an issue, we can pay it off quickly, but unless you reject a need package out right, you will have to take on some student debt.

 

I hate these threads because they always devolve into "Dur...get an engineering or maffs degree or go to trade or nursing school."  WHich is not representative of the information economy, at all.  I spent last week despairing at the poor communication and writing skills of a policy based job we are looking to fill. Tons of people with Ivy or Near Ivy lab time.  Not a single one of them could pass a 7th grade lit analysis exam.  Which makes them about as useless as tits on a boar hog in my world.  Can you break down a complex policy analysis, summarize it in writing, and communicate it effectively in person to a stranger? Physics don't teach that shit.

Capable smart people are gonna rise, regardless of degree.  This issue is we often sell 4 year school as a palliative to people who probably are not going to be able to take advantage of their degree, depending on the school choice. 

Edited February 11, 2020 by Bateshorn

[CowboyFred 1151]

19 minutes ago, tantric superman said:

Lawyers made a median salary of $120,910 in 2018. The best-paid 25 percent made $182,490 that year, while the lowest-paid 25 percent made $79,160. (US News and World Report)

Yes, law school is silly now, but I know a lot of lawyers in Dallas, I'm the poorest of all that I know, and I'm pretty confident that less than 10% make below 200K.

There is probably a loan cutoff point, but given that one can save a million bucks by not raising kids, loans for law school seem pretty well worth it.

 

 

This is where I'm at.  As someone who is currently a 3L in law school, although not accumulating 200K in loans, it all depends (as it does with every degree/career) on the person receiving the degree.  If they're going to sit on their ass and do the bare minimum after graduation then the possibility of repaying the note is not looking good.  If they are going to work and are making every effort to find the best employment, there is a great possibility that they can in fact pay back their debts and live a prosperous life.  

 

Like many have said, the price of education has gone way up while the value has not risen along with it or may have even dropped in value.  That is on the legislators for letting this shit get so out of hand.  I'd also like to point out that some families simply can't afford to pay for their child's college education outright even if they start off at the JUCO route without the help of student loans.  Sometimes it can be poor planning but it can also be unfortunate events that have impacted the family.  Divorces happen, layoffs happen, economic shifts, etc... 

[tantric superman 4667]

12 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

For fuck's sake, some of the older posters here grew up watching us send a man to the goddamn moon and now they're just certain that we can't build a better education system. It's pathetic.

Perhaps more on point, some of us paid less than $10 per semester hour at UT, if I'm not mistaken.  That was for UT Law School.

I think I've told this story.  During my last year of law school, I got a note from the bursars office.  They asked me if I wanted my scholarship/grant money, I needed to come get it.

It turns out when I got my acceptance to UT law, there was a separate letter that I never received that gave me about $1K per semester.  I'm glad they reminded me.

A few years ago, having always assumed that UT law was basically free, I was floored to find out how much it cost now.   

 

Edited February 11, 2020 by tantric superman

[tantric superman 4667]

Which is to say that any person older than 50 who paid UT tuition and got a degree is a complete son of a bitch if he doesn't support ways to help people afford college. 

[Brisketexan 104628]

16 hours ago, washparkhorn said:

It didn't cost $100K to get a degree at Texas when Pete Buttigieg studied English at his college of choice.

What economic forces caused the steep inflation in higher education?

This is just a brutal fact.

I saw it laid out another way -- when I was in school (late 80s), you could pay for a UT education and your basic living expenses by working 20 hrs a week (at a low-wage job -- think waiting tables or working at HEB, typical student gigs) during the school year and full-time during the summer.  Again, pay for the whole thing -- no loans.  Sure, you ate a lotta ramen and drank REALLY shitty beer, but you could get a UT degree -- ANY degree -- and pay for it yourself.

Today?  You'd have to work 56 hrs a week, year-round, to do the same.  So, in other words, you can't do it.

16 hours ago, Anastasis said:

The parent who does not counsel their child that they are shitting the bed by taking out a quarter million dollars in student loan debt is a failure. 

Agreed.  Anecdote: daughter was considering Georgetown, annual cost of over $70k.  We flat-out told her that if she got in, the ONLY way we'd support her attending is if scholarships cut that cost in half.  No degree, from any college, is worth $280k retail.  Thankfully, they urged her to pursue her interests elsewhere, and she's going to college for less than half that price for four years.

15 hours ago, washparkhorn said:

 

Because of Biden. 

"In 1990, it was easier to discharge student loan debt in bankruptcy. But Biden was the chief sponsor of the Crime Control Act, which lengthened the waiting period before a student loan borrower could file for bankruptcy.

In 1998, Biden supported a change in the bankruptcy code that created an “undue hardship” standard for federal student loans, making it significantly more difficult for borrowers to discharge their federal student loans in bankruptcy. Biden continued to oppose efforts to loosen bankruptcy restrictions on student loans through 2001.

In 2005, Biden supported a change in the bankruptcy code that made it much more difficult to discharge private student loan debt in bankruptcy by also applying the “undue hardship” standard. Prior to then, private student loans were not treated much differently than other forms of consumer debt in bankruptcy. Following this change, private student loans started rapidly expanding across college campuses."

https://www.forbes.com/sites/adamminsky/2019/06/03/where-does-joe-biden-stand-on-student-loan-debt/#755a06c86a6c

Yeah, Biden wasn't the only one who did this, but he was damned well a water-carrier for it.  I will always hold this against him.  Always.  These were shitty, shitty things to do.

15 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

The answer appears to be a toxic brew of three things:  reduced state support of colleges and universities; tuition deregulation; and free availability of student loans.

All the while, curiously enough, the value of a bachelors degree has deteriorated.

So you have three culprits:  state legislatures, the schools themselves, and business or banking interests.

Bingo.  A toxic stew, where every ingredient is a different variety of poison.  We USED to have affordable public universities, that you could attend either without taking on debt or minimum debt (I knew folks who graduated with $10k-15k in debt -- they could pay that off in a few years).   Now, if you're middle class or above, we don't have affordable universities.

15 hours ago, TornACL said:

University tuition is on the pharma cost train. So much of the money spent is "free" (loans/insurance) that there's no market penalty for raising prices.

Yes, that's one of the factors -- free money almost always leads to inflation.

14 hours ago, heso said:

A huge part of the problem is for profit schools. The students on average borrow more while accounting for the majority of defaults. 

they are predatory in nature, targeting minorities, low income, first generation college students, and ex-military. These are people that don’t have anyone to guide them. They get targeted by people pretending to have their best interest at heart, but all they care about is getting the loan signed.

The Obama admin was taking steps to kill the worst offenders, but Trump and Betsy Devos are doing their best to revive the industry. 

Those places are so fucking predatory and sickening.  What's interesting to me is seeing many state institutions spotting the opportunity and filling it.  Arizona State is a good example.  Why get an online degree from Western Governors Polytechnical School for Money Extraction for $60k, when you can get it from an actual school for a third to half the cost?

11 hours ago, bonnieblue said:

And I'm sure some theater majors make excellent [insert job of choice]. Outside of a few specific career paths with certain prerequisite knowledge needed at the undergraduate level, I think most companies would benefit from hiring employees from a diversity of educational backgrounds. Maybe the theater major brings some creativity to the strategy planning or the engineer brings some structure to the creative endeavor. 

 

11 hours ago, elfenix said:

an educated citizenry and a body politic requires more than human calculators figuring out how to squeeze another 100th of a percent out of the oil patch or a piece of silicon. 

elfenix is spot-on here.  I'm not a HUGE fan of filling the world with theater majors, but honestly, it's not that big a phenomenon, AND, it overlooks one of the best things we get from higher education: an educated population that is better able to think critically and creatively.  We benefit from having a population with at least a 5th grade education (they can read, and do basic math), we benefit from a population with a high school education (they can read complex writing, write coherent sentences, and do the type of math required for most small businesses), why wouldn't we benefit from a population with a college degree (they can research answers and issues, write creatively and persuasively, etc.)?

We need college to be accessible and affordable for all.  Yes, there are plenty of folks who can and should just pursue a vocational education (I know at least two electricians who have done VERY well for themselves, and run a thriving business), but that doesn't take away from the fact that a four year post-high school education improves people, and thus improves our society.  It is a greater good, and it used to be accessible to almost all.  

My modest proposal is simply to make it as accessible today as it was in 1988.  

[wildcat09 29260]

1 minute ago, CowboyFred said:

This is where I'm at.  As someone who is currently a 3L in law school, although not accumulating 200K in loans, it all depends (as it does with every degree/career) on the person receiving the degree.  If they're going to sit on their ass and do the bare minimum after graduation then the possibility of repaying the note is not looking good.  If they are going to work and are making every effort to find the best employment, there is a great possibility that they can in fact pay back their debts and live a prosperous life.  

 

Like many have said, the price of education has gone way up while the value has not risen along with it or may have even dropped in value.  That is on the legislators for letting this shit get so out of hand.  I'd also like to point out that some families simply can't afford to pay for their child's college education outright even if they start off at the JUCO route without the help of student loans.  Sometimes it can be poor planning but it can also be unfortunate events that have impacted the family.  Divorces happen, layoffs happen, economic shifts, etc... 

Times are a lot different than they were when I was graduating. I graduated law school in 2014 with an enormous class full of people who got fucked by the great recession, and even though we were well out of the recession by that point the job market for new grads who didn't go the big law summer associate route was extremely tight. Things are better right now, but they'll go back to what I experienced soon enough. All markets, including labor markets, operate in cycles and when you're in the shitty part of a cycle it's not because most people aren't working hard enough.

[Bateshorn 9905]

5 minutes ago, CowboyFred said:

This is where I'm at.  As someone who is currently a 3L in law school, although not accumulating 200K in loans, it all depends (as it does with every degree/career) on the person receiving the degree.  If they're going to sit on their ass and do the bare minimum after graduation then the possibility of repaying the note is not looking good.  If they are going to work and are making every effort to find the best employment, there is a great possibility that they can in fact pay back their debts and live a prosperous life.  

 

 

I have a buddy who does family law who just hired a new associate.  She was the child of an awful divorce and went to law school because she has a passion for collaborative family law.  She majored in pre law and psychology in undergrad. She's already tearing it up at the firm.  Law was absolutely the right choice for her.  

For your average dude that goes because "it's what you do if you are still finding yoursefl after undergrad"  it's a terrible idea.

[CowboyFred 1151]

4 minutes ago, tantric superman said:

Perhaps more on point, some of us paid less than $10 per semester hour at UT, if I'm not mistaken.

This too.  Some say "just work through school blah blah blah".  I'd like to know where people are making 40K a year to pay for the cost of a full year at UT (I assume its in that ballpark) when that doesn't include all the bills you are going to pay besides tuition (living expenses).  That shit ain't cheap.  Shit, even at UTSA I think they're up to about 20K for the full year for 24 hours.  Working to pay for school is simply not as feasible as it once was.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

22 minutes ago, tantric superman said:

The seemingly happiest people I know are married professional homosexuals with no kids.  Seemingly unlimited travel budgets and no worries.

I'll take Personal preference for $500 Alex.  Yep know several of those guys. Have one bud posts FB images from all over the world. I love his life choice, but made mine, and have no regrets. 

 I chose family, having grown up in a close, extended family, and loving that experience.  Travel and self indulgence is happening more and more as the kids have now moved on with their own lives.

 

END THREAD DRIFT......

[Bateshorn 9905]

My son rejected several prestigious school offers because the merit and need aid were not great.  Trinity rolled up with a fat merit and need offer, so it looks like he's moving to San Antonio in the fall.  We told him we could make some of the other schools work if necessary, but there would be some debt.  He doesn't want that monkey on his back.

Edited February 11, 2020 by Bateshorn

[tantric superman 4667]

Just now, Bateshorn said:

My son rejected several prestigious school offers because the merit and need aid were not great.  Trinity rolled up with a fat merit and need offer, so it looks like he's moving to San Antonio in the fall.  We told him we could make some of the other schools work if necessary, but there would be some debt.  He doesn't want that monkey on his back.

Well, you owe me, because my daughter went to Trinity, and lets just say she got no merit offer to speak of.  I think the model is the slow kids pay for the crackerjacks at schools like Trinity.

Welcome to the cult!

 

[Nice Guy Eddie 13414]

29 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

here is another great article on the subject. it's long, but it highlights how the tuition deregulation in 2003 has led to costs spiraling up:

https://alcalde.texasexes.org/2019/01/looking-at-higher-education-funding-in-texas-and-how-we-got-here/

i went to school at texas from 96-00. my tuition per liberal arts semester was roughly $1300 for a full 15 hours, give or take for core science labs and the like.

now?

Texas like many states are not setting the next generation up for success.  As taxpayers we should be helping colleges with large subsidies for in-state students, and partially helping out-of-state students. I say partially because there is a decent chance many of the out-of-state students will remain after graduation.

The state also would need to tell the schools to calm down on the overspending especially on unnecessary extras for students. 

[Asithappens 974]

38 minutes ago, tantric superman said:

Lawyers made a median salary of $120,910 in 2018. The best-paid 25 percent made $182,490 that year, while the lowest-paid 25 percent made $79,160. (US News and World Report)

Yes, law school is silly now, but I know a lot of lawyers in Dallas, I'm the poorest of all that I know, and I'm pretty confident that less than 10% make below 200K.

There is probably a loan cutoff point, but given that one can save a million bucks by not raising kids, loans for law school seem pretty well worth it.

 

 

Ok, let's peel this onion back a bit.

Are those salary numbers for all law school graduates? Only those who are employed as lawyers? In law firms? 

USN&WR also has Houston paying lawyers at a clip of $175,380. Does this sound accurate or realistic to Houston law dogs? 

If you want to look at law school grads, not just those employed with firms (the better firms), those lowest paid numbers drop into the $40's. 

My point, and I think this is pretty well known, is that unless you can get into a top tier school then it's not worth taking out massive student loans. 

Loans for law school are mostly not worth it once you get outside the top tier of schools. 

[Laxtonto 11934]

15 hours ago, washparkhorn said:

Of course not. But where did the money go?

Well considering the overall funding from the state and federal resources has dwindled to the point that schools like UT can claim to be private schools if they wish, what do you expect is going to happen to those schools without the safety net (and even UT to an extent) of some of these larger well known schools? Public schools are getting hammered and Private schools have many of the same issues as well.

Yes are administrative costs an issue, sure. But so is the fact that most local/state/and federal agencies have changed what they provide to universities is a part people tend to leave out. Funding cuts to education (at all levels from elementary through PhDs) have crippled budgets of schools that should be "doing fine".

 

Lets do something easy that gets overlooked, like energy costs. There used to be a state rate charged that was fixed (or in some case none at all) provided by local or state agencies, those are gone now and the energy consumption for a large university is insane in scale. How do yo make up the revenue shortfall to stay open?  Raise tuition.

Insurance for your faculty and now mandated insurance coverage for you graduate students. Prices have tripled if not more and no one is providing any funding to offset these increase. How do you make up the revenue shortfall to stay open? Raise tuition.

Construction costs have skyrocketed and the amount of funding provided to universities have rapidly declined and yet population continues to grow so old buildings need to be refurbished and new ones built but no new funds. How do you make up the revenue shortfall to stay open? Raise tuition.

 

I can go on and on in ways how the system has changed from a local, state, and federally funded model to a consumer driven student paid model. The issue is that old funding system does not work and the new consumer driven model is at odds with the idea that everyone needs to go to college.

 

I will not even get into the aspects of students loans and what students don't understand regarding student debt. I (mainly at the behest of several of my research students interested in the problem) have ran several studies with absolutely terrifying results regarding what students don't understand about their loans and how little they understand about personal finance and the job market in general.

All of this really jsuit goes back to the absolutely simplest truism to tell students about student loans. If you take out more in loans that your starting salary will be in your entry level occupation you more than likely wont be able to afford anything else. If you are taking out 50k in loans, you better be making 50k when you get out. If not what it takes to pay it back leaves you to make some serious choices how you are going to live your life.

It saddens me to see kids taking out 100k or more for an undergrad for a degree in elementary ed and then do not understand why they are living at home with theirs at 32 broke with what they consider a poor quality of life in comparison to their parents at that age. They don't understand the issues in front of them at the time when they sign their loan paper work  and why it is so imperative to only take what you need vs. all you can get. Those decisions at 18 to 20 leads them to a very unpleasant realization from 25-35.

 

The system is broken and loan forgiveness wont fix it. The underlying problems will still be there. Killing off federal backed student loans will fix some of the issues on the student side, but it will decrease student pool (and severely impact some areas vs others). Private banks will not just give out cash without much more stringent questions regarding future income potential and the ability to pay it back.

The real issue is still the fact that operating costs are skyrocketing because the world is changing and until we take funding of education seriously again from a national, state, and local levels then schools only options are to increase tuition, even if we limit the ability to get federally backed student loans which will reduce overall enrollments nation wide. Sure, can we gut admin at every school to be more streamlined, damn right we can. But that is really a drop in the bucket to some of the other underlying issues at hand. Finding solutions for all of these other hidden costs is something else that has to be figured out as well. Until then schools will raise tuition knowing that students will sign off on their student loan paperwork and the cycle continues. 

Schools are now forced to be addicted to student loan money and students are brought up to be addicted to the idea that they all are going to college regardless of cost. Until something changes in these areas, all other changes will be superficial.  

[Brisketexan 104628]

13 minutes ago, tantric superman said:

Perhaps more on point, some of us paid less than $10 per semester hour at UT, if I'm not mistaken.  That was for UT Law School.

I think I've told this story.  During my last year of law school, I got a note from the bursars office.  They asked me if I wanted my scholarship/grant money, I needed to come get it.

It turns out when I got my acceptance to UT law, there was a separate letter that I never received that gave me about $1K per semester.  I'm glad they reminded me.

A few years ago, having always assumed that UT law was basically free, I was floored to find out how much it cost now.   

 

 

8 minutes ago, tantric superman said:

Which is to say that any person older than 50 who paid UT tuition and got a degree is a complete son of a bitch if he doesn't support ways to help people afford college. 

And these.

I had an academic full ride all the way through.....but even then, it wasn't a huge dollar amount.  Seriously, I think my undergrad scholarship was something like $20k for up to five years (meaning I got $4k a year, usable for tuition and books).  I remember that I had to keep and turn in my book receipts to get that money released, because my tuition didn't eat up the full $2k I was allocated per semester.

Tuition at UT Law is now $32k.  I think that ALL THREE YEARS cost about $16k when went....so, you could get a UT law degree for the cost of a single semester today.  That's nuts.  I mean, I'm not a kid, but I'm not THAT old.

[Asithappens 974]

I'm not a HUGE fan of filling the world with theater majors....

 

I think I've been clear about this, but maybe not. 

I have nothing against theater/rtf (and the like) majors. The world doesn't need to be filled with them, but hey, follow your bliss. I've never said to not follow your passion.

It's taking out huge student loans that is stupid. Not majoring in it. 

 

[tantric superman 4667]

12 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Sure, you ate a lotta ramen and drank REALLY shitty beer, but you could get a UT degree -- ANY degree -- and pay for it yourself.

Every shitty beer I drank in college was delicious.

[Brisketexan 104628]

12 minutes ago, Bateshorn said:

For your average dude that goes because "it's what you do if you are still finding yoursefl after undergrad"  it's a terrible idea.

I was a TQ (essentially, a 3L adviser-mentor to a group of 1Ls) in law school.  Right before semester break, one of my students (Ethan, still remember his first name) asked to meet with me.  He told me that he wouldn't be coming back after finals. I asked why.  He was kind of a long-haired free spirit type, and said "you know, a lot of my buddies graduated college, and said they needed to find themselves, and find their way.  So they're just kind of drifting aimlessly.  I said to myself 'you can't find your path until you try some paths.'  So I tried this path.  It isn't the path for me.  So I should go try some other path, and not waste money on this one or take up a space that someone else can use."  I didn't argue with him in the slightest -- to this day, I respect the hell out of his decisions -- both to try law school, and to bail when he realized it wasn't what he wanted to do with his life.

[Brisketexan 104628]

3 minutes ago, Asithappens said:

I'm not a HUGE fan of filling the world with theater majors....

 

I think I've been clear about this, but maybe not. 

I have nothing against theater/rtf (and the like) majors. The world doesn't need to be filled with them, but hey, follow your bliss. I've never said to not follow your passion.

It's taking out huge student loans that is stupid. Not majoring in it. 

 

But the underlying point is....you didn't used to have to up to your eyeballs in debt, for ANY degree.  You could get a UT theater degree and graduate with little or no debt.  People should be able to do that still.

3 minutes ago, tantric superman said:

Every shitty beer I drank in college was delicious.

Oh fuck yes it was.

[Asithappens 974]

7 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Tuition at UT Law is now $32k.  I think that ALL THREE YEARS cost about $16k when went....so, you could get a UT law degree for the cost of a single semester today.  That's nuts.  I mean, I'm not a kid, but I'm not THAT old.

Out of state tuition at UT law is closer to $50k/year than $45k/year ($47,532). Add to that room & board, books, incidentals and you're looking at real money.

If you're top 10% then this may be worth it. Or maybe even top 15%. 

[Brisketexan 104628]

1 minute ago, Asithappens said:

Out of state tuition at UT law is closer to $50k/year than $45k/year ($47,532). Add to that room & board, books, incidentals and you're looking at real money.

If you're top 10% then this may be worth it. Or maybe even top 15%. 

I'm only talking in-state, as that is the apples-to-apples comparison.  It has ALWAYS been the case that if you're going to a state school from out-of-state, you're paying way above the rack rate.

[Asithappens 974]

But the underlying point is....you didn't used to have to up to your eyeballs in debt, for ANY degree.  You could get a UT theater degree and graduate with little or no debt.  People should be able to do that still.

That is a point but not the underlying point to this thread, imo.

The underlying point is don't be a fucking idiot when taking out student loans. Life isn't fair. We all get that. But that doesn't excuse theater majors going into massive debt. 

[wildcat09 29260]

1 minute ago, Asithappens said:

But the underlying point is....you didn't used to have to up to your eyeballs in debt, for ANY degree.  You could get a UT theater degree and graduate with little or no debt.  People should be able to do that still.

That is a point but not the underlying point to this thread, imo.

The underlying point is don't be a fucking idiot when taking out student loans. Life isn't fair. We all get that. But that doesn't excuse theater majors going into massive debt. 

What percentage of all outstanding student loan debt do you think is owed by theater majors?

[TwiceHorn 31283]

5 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

But the underlying point is....you didn't used to have to up to your eyeballs in debt, for ANY degree.  You could get a UT theater degree and graduate with little or no debt.  People should be able to do that still.

 

One fascinating and chilling aspect of the whole thing:  starting salaries in most every field are a ton higher, like 3-4x, than they were when UT was 4-8-12-24 bucks an hour.

But the student-type jobs, the low-wage, unskilled jobs have only doubled.

[Bateshorn 9905]

I think there is something to the importance of college helping adolescents grow into adults.  I'm not saying you shouldn't cap that cost, but there are benefits to going to college, living on campus, forming life friendships that are durable and important.  Not everyone is well served by grinding out as many as credits as possible at community college, then transfering to close by state U for a counting degree while living at home.   Sure, you've got a piece of paper at the lowest possible cost, but have you picked up the life skills you need for that profession?

Edited February 11, 2020 by Bateshorn

[Brisketexan 104628]

9 minutes ago, Asithappens said:

That is a point but not the underlying point to this thread, imo.

The underlying point is don't be a fucking idiot when taking out student loans. Life isn't fair. We all get that. But that doesn't excuse theater majors going into massive debt. 

How can the freaking COST of college not be an underlying point when we're talking about loans that are taken out to pay [checks notes] the COST of college?

"Theater majors in debt" (huh, sounds like something I saw on Skinemax back in the late 80s) is a red herring.  It's a ridiculously small slice of the problem.  There is currently $1.41 TRILLION in outstanding student loan debt. Let's presume that "theater majors" make up 5% of all of that debt (and come on, we know that 5% of college grads aren't theater majors).  So, we're still talking about $1.34 trillion in debt, taken out by NON-theater majors.

It's not the cost of theater degrees that's putting people in the hole...it's the cost of ALL DEGREES.  And the student loan amount they need to carry means that you need a HIGH paying job (not a good job, a GREAT job) to get out of the hole before you're old.

Cost is, literally, the underlying problem.

Edited February 11, 2020 by Brisketexan

[yoladu 4067]

16 hours ago, Foosters said:

Regardless of how you feel about these idiot students (and you've made it clear how you feel) there is an entire generation (with another on the horizon about to join their fate) that has no savings and is essentially locked out of the housing market due to student loans. What does that portend long term? What are the economic ramifications of a generation of Americans sitting on the sideline?

nevermind.. brain fart.

Edited February 11, 2020 by yoladu
computer gone funny

[BradInATX 9208]

3 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

How can the freaking COST of college not be an underlying point when we're talking about loans that are taken out to pay [checks notes] the COST of college?

"Theater majors in debt" (huh, sounds like something I saw on Skinemax back in the late 80s) is a red herring.  It's a ridiculously small slice of the problem.  There is currently $1.41 TRILLION in outstanding student loan debt. Let's presume that "theater majors" make up 5% of all of that debt (and come on, we know that 5% of college grads aren't theater majors).  So, we're still talking about $1.34 trillion in debt, taken out by NON-theater majors.

It's not the cost of theater degrees that's putting people in the hole...it's the cost of ALL DEGREES.  And the student loan amount they need to carry means that you need a HIGH paying job (not a good job, a GREAT job) to get out of the hole before you're old.

Cost is, literally, the underlying problem.

This can't be right. I was told that the only people struggling with student debt majored in Painting with Menstrual Blood.

[Bateshorn 9905]

3 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

How can the freaking COST of college not be an underlying point when we're talking about loans that are taken out to pay [checks notes] the COST of college?

"Theater majors in debt" (huh, sounds like something I saw on Skinemax back in the late 80s) is a red herring.  It's a ridiculously small slice of the problem.  There is currently $1.41 TRILLION in outstanding student loan debt. Let's presume that "theater majors" make up 5% of all of that debt (and come on, we know that 5% of college grads aren't theater majors).  So, we're talking about $1.34 trillion in debt.

It's not the cost of theater degrees that's putting people in the hole...it's the cost of ALL DEGREES.  And the student loan amount they need to carry means that you need a HIGH paying job (not a good job, a GREAT job) to get out of the hole before you're old.

Cost is, literally, the underlying problem.

The number of people who are getting worthless for profit degrees is a MUCH, MUCH bigger problem than the old theater major trope.

[yoladu 4067]

16 hours ago, Foosters said:

Regardless of how you feel about these idiot students (and you've made it clear how you feel) there is an entire generation (with another on the horizon about to join their fate) that has no savings and is essentially locked out of the housing market due to student loans. What does that portend long term? What are the economic ramifications of a generation of Americans sitting on the sideline?

We need to produce citizens who can pay $1,000,000 for our houses that trippled in value the last 30 years. Those saddled with massive college debt ain't gonna do it.

my tongue is a bit in my cheek, but yeah..

[Brisketexan 104628]

1 minute ago, yoladu said:

 can afford to buy my million dollar home that has tripled in value the last 30 years. 

Thread diversion: I have a pending question/hypothesis about housing prices, and what's going to happen to them in the next 10-20 years as the boomers die off.  We have a shitload of big, fancy houses on golf courses and such that millenials don't want.  You're going to have a big slug of supply coming into the market, with not much demand.  That's a big downward pressure on price.  I think some millenials are going to be in a position to scoop up some bargains in a decade or so.

Sorry, diversion over.

[David Dennison 18661]

17 minutes ago, Asithappens said:

But the underlying point is....you didn't used to have to up to your eyeballs in debt, for ANY degree.  You could get a UT theater degree and graduate with little or no debt.  People should be able to do that still.

That is a point but not the underlying point to this thread, imo.

The underlying point is don't be a fucking idiot when taking out student loans. Life isn't fair. We all get that. But that doesn't excuse theater majors going into massive debt. 

How many 18-22 year olds do you know who aren't idiots?

[Brisketexan 104628]

3 minutes ago, Bateshorn said:

The number of people who are getting worthless for profit degrees is a MUCH, MUCH bigger problem than the old theater major trope.

DING DING DING.  We have a winner.  A lot of people who need a piece of paper to get a job, or to qualify for a promotion, are going into massive debt to get it.  That's a huge chunk of our student loan problem - I guarantee you those folks make up 10X the amount of the total debt that theater majors and whatnot make up.

[Brisketexan 104628]

Just now, David Dennison said:

How many 18-22 year olds do you know who aren't idiots?

I mean, there's this one gal, she told me she was only dancing to pay her way through medical school.  She seemed really smart.  But in all honesty, I may not have been paying perfect attention to what she was saying.