2020 Baseball Cheaters vs the World Thread of Hate

[UTexasFight 9,793]

Astros: 2017 World Champs

Suck it. Come and take it.

 

 

(General thread title to allow for Red Sox/yankees/dodgers/ et al fans to bitch now and then defend later when their teams get popped too).

 

 

 

[thrillhammer 686]

never realized how many crybabies there were in baseball.  and this holier than thou shit is finally getting to me, as if no other player has ever stolen a signal or been the recipient of a relayed signal.  it's as old as baseball and goes on at all levels in practically every game.  i really thought this would have blown over by now.  i'm ready for the astros to kick some ass and shut the haters up.  

[Eastwood 4,394]

Just win

[Pato del Muerto 53,420]

Do you think it’s astros fans making death threats to fiers, or just old school baseball fans from many teams?

[formermav43 4,607]

2 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Do you think it’s astros fans making death threats to fiers, or just old school baseball fans from many teams?

It’s angry fathers of underage girls.

[txhorns 2,421]

Astros fans: You can't trust the fake Beltran Niece account.  It's clearly all bullshit.

 

Also Astros fans:  This fake twitter account run by an Astros fan out for revenge is clearly telling the truth about Fiers sleeping with a 17 year old (legal) girl is the gospel truth.  The dude is a pedophile who should be executed.

[Js1 87,152]

Well one had some pretty clear receipts and the other had.....? 

[Sbbruin 22,139]

So is this another Astros fan circle jerk thread?

[Eastwood 4,394]

4 minutes ago, Sbbruin said:

So is this another Astros fan circle jerk thread?

It's a thread to consolidate the sign stealing controversy so the MLB offseason thread and the Astros offseason thread can talk about the ghosts of baseball future instead of the ghost of baseball past.

[Chuckie Finster 23,035]

49 minutes ago, txhorns said:

Astros fans: You can't trust the fake Beltran Niece account.  It's clearly all bullshit.

 

Also Astros fans:  This fake twitter account run by an Astros fan out for revenge is clearly telling the truth about Fiers sleeping with a 17 year old (legal) girl is the gospel truth.  The dude is a pedophile who should be executed.

For someone who continuously rails on other fanbases, you've had some pretty fucking stupid posts during this whole ordeal.  

[GHOSTUSER 361]

Embrace the hate.

[B00M 6,729]

You can't equate what the Astros did with a baserunner relaying a sign, which doesn't even happen at the MLB level because pitchers/catchers prevent it with systems of signs. This is also why the Astros couldn't cheat with runners on 2nd base. 

Correas' explanation of why the Dodgers didn't get cheated out of a WS was pretty awesome. I suspect the Yankees had a stronger argument...

But cameras have been in the OF since it was possible to put them there.  

https://www.google.com/amp/s/ftw.usatoday.com/2020/01/jack-mcdowell-explains-how-the-white-sox-stole-signs-using-a-camera-in-the-1980s/amp

But with machine learning this will only get worse.

 

[formermav43 4,607]

1 hour ago, txhorns said:

Astros fans: You can't trust the fake Beltran Niece account.  It's clearly all bullshit.

 

Also Astros fans:  This fake twitter account run by an Astros fan out for revenge is clearly telling the truth about Fiers sleeping with a 17 year old (legal) girl is the gospel truth.  The dude is a pedophile who should be executed.

txhorns: Wait, what is this “joke”? Never heard of it.

[B00M 6,729]

Brian McTaggart (@brianmctaggart) Tweeted:
This is good. Correa said it impossible to steal signs on the road and details some playoff hits that weren’t aided by trash can. https://t.co/NUvie04F8l

 

 

[Herpa Derpa 6,342]

Always and forevermore.

[thrillhammer 686]

12 minutes ago, B00M said:

You can't equate what the Astros did with a baserunner relaying a sign, which doesn't even happen at the MLB level because pitchers/catchers prevent it with systems of signs. This is also why the Astros couldn't cheat with runners on 2nd base. 

Correas' explanation of why the Dodgers didn't get cheated out of a WS was pretty awesome. I suspect the Yankees had a stronger argument...

But cameras have been in the OF since it was possible to put them there.  

https://www.google.com/amp/s/ftw.usatoday.com/2020/01/jack-mcdowell-explains-how-the-white-sox-stole-signs-using-a-camera-in-the-1980s/amp

But with machine learning this will only get worse.

 

you absolutely can equate the two.  you're saying that if the baserunner relays the signs its okay, but if someone in the dugout does it, its not.  I call bullshit on that.  there is nothing illegal about sign stealing, or even relaying signs.  what the rule says is no technology.  I call bullshit on that too.  in this day and age of technology - cell phones, ai, smartwatches, etc it will be more and more commonplace.  the result of this controversy wont be to end sign stealing or relaying, but to initiate the advent of better signals.   its not stealing if they give it to you, and the signals are clear for everyone to see.  come with a better system.

[formermav43 4,607]

7 minutes ago, Herpa Derpa said:

Always and forevermore.

Indeed.

[B00M 6,729]

4 minutes ago, thrillhammer said:

you absolutely can equate the two.  you're saying that if the baserunner relays the signs its okay, but if someone in the dugout does it, its not.  I call bullshit on that.  there is nothing illegal about sign stealing, or even relaying signs.  what the rule says is no technology.  I call bullshit on that too.  in this day and age of technology - cell phones, ai, smartwatches, etc it will be more and more commonplace.  the result of this controversy wont be to end sign stealing or relaying, but to initiate the advent of better signals.   its not stealing if they give it to you, and the signals are clear for everyone to see.  come with a better system.

I couldn't disagree with this more. 

But what you're suggesting is that pitchers and catchers must wear radio receivers and get the calls from the dugout because there's no system of signs from a catcher to pitcher that can defeat a camera and machine learning. And hell, those radio comms better be fucking encrypted.

That's the game you want?

 

[Pato del Muerto 53,420]

9 minutes ago, B00M said:

I couldn't disagree with this more. 

But what you're suggesting is that pitchers and catchers must wear radio receivers and get the calls from the dugout because there's no system of signs from a catcher to pitcher that can defeat a camera and machine learning. And hell, those radio comms better be fucking encrypted.

That's the game you want?

 

Why not?  Nfl went to it a long time ago. Gonna mess with mound visit rules though unless monitored if it’s a voice system. 

[thrillhammer 686]

3 minutes ago, B00M said:

I couldn't disagree with this more. 

But what you're suggesting is that pitchers and catchers must wear radio receivers and get the calls from the dugout because there's no system of signs from a catcher to pitcher that can defeat a camera and machine learning. And hell, those radio comms better be fucking encrypted.

That's the game you want?

 

i'm not opposed to it.  technology entering the game is inevitable.  my point is that you can't come out with all this faux outrage that "oh wah, poor me, they stole my signs" when you're flashing the signs in front of everyone.  it's as simple as changing your signals.  what if the catcher flashed a bunch of signals that meant nothing and then tapped his helmet?  all 29 teams (and i mean all of them, not just the astros) would be trying to decipher the hand signals when in truth the pitch is called by the tapping of the helmet?

the day after signals were invented was the day stealing signals was invented.   the day after you allow radio comms to call the pitches will be the day that hacking into those radio comms is invented.  it's human nature.  it's on you to invent and reinvent your signal system. you cant cry and claim the victim when you're too stupid to realize everyone knows what pitch is coming because of your stupid signal system.

[formermav43 4,607]

14 minutes ago, B00M said:

I couldn't disagree with this more. 

But what you're suggesting is that pitchers and catchers must wear radio receivers and get the calls from the dugout because there's no system of signs from a catcher to pitcher that can defeat a camera and machine learning. And hell, those radio comms better be fucking encrypted.

That's the game you want?

 

You’re stating this like it’s an argument, and I don’t see why. What’s the difference in calling pitches via radio vs calling plays in football? Big deal.

[Sbbruin 22,139]

The vociferous defense by Astros fans stomping their feet that what they did was fine, and nothing to see here, only validates the tainted aspect of their championship.  Just drop it and move on.  The more defensive you get, the more dubious the championship seems.

[formermav43 4,607]

2 minutes ago, Sbbruin said:

The vociferous defense by Astros fans stomping their feet that what they did was fine, and nothing to see here, only validates the tainted aspect of their championship.  Just drop it and move on.  The more defensive you get, the more dubious the championship seems.

[Chuckie Finster 23,035]

3 minutes ago, Sbbruin said:

The vociferous defense by Astros fans stomping their feet that what they did was fine, and nothing to see here, only validates the tainted aspect of their championship.  Just drop it and move on.  The more defensive you get, the more dubious the championship seems.

Sorry we made you sads

[Eastwood 4,394]

19 minutes ago, B00M said:

I couldn't disagree with this more. 

But what you're suggesting is that pitchers and catchers must wear radio receivers and get the calls from the dugout because there's no system of signs from a catcher to pitcher that can defeat a camera and machine learning. And hell, those radio comms better be fucking encrypted.

That's the game you want?

 

Simple Apple watch-like buzzer system is all they need. Catcher wears it on his glove wrist, pitcher wears it on his. Tap out the sign, pitcher relays it back if he likes it. Connected directly by Bluetooth or even a step further having the devices exclusively paired and unable to pair with other devices. But hey, baseball was the last major sport to incorporate replay, resisting the computer called balls and strikes, and the old man sport will continue to yell at the cloud.

[Herpa Derpa 6,342]

31 minutes ago, formermav43 said:

Indeed.

Indeed.

[Mez2 4,046]

In. 

[Mez2 4,046]

1 hour ago, Sbbruin said:

So is this another Astros fan circle jerk thread?

I came to the right spot!

[C-Man 27,774]

36 minutes ago, thrillhammer said:

you absolutely can equate the two.  you're saying that if the baserunner relays the signs its okay, but if someone in the dugout does it, its not.  I call bullshit on that.  there is nothing illegal about sign stealing, or even relaying signs.  what the rule says is no technology.  I call bullshit on that too.  in this day and age of technology - cell phones, ai, smartwatches, etc it will be more and more commonplace.  the result of this controversy wont be to end sign stealing or relaying, but to initiate the advent of better signals.   its not stealing if they give it to you, and the signals are clear for everyone to see.  come with a better system.

And yet seemingly the entirety of MLB's other teams are livid with the Astros over their advanced sign-stealing system -- I find that very telling. It was that egregious.

[formermav43 4,607]

3 minutes ago, C-Man said:

And yet seemingly the entirety of MLB's other teams are livid with the Astros over their advanced sign-stealing system -- I find that very telling. It was that egregious.

They’re selling it well, at any rate.

[thrillhammer 686]

1 minute ago, C-Man said:

And yet seemingly the entirety of MLB's other teams are livid with the Astros over their advanced sign-stealing system -- I find that very telling. It was that egregious.

not sure if serious or sarcastic.  i'm telling you it's faux outrage.  they aren't really livid. it's a case of methinks thou dost protest too much. it's like a looter getting caught running out of a store with an armful of goods and everyone else going "how could you?" when they all just came out of the store themselves.  every one these players pretending to be livid, has been the beneficiary at some point in their career of someone telling them what pitch is coming.  they've all done it but this faux outrage is trying to placate the normal naive fan into thinking what a shock this is to all of us that this is going on, when in truth they've known about it, and participated in it, all along.  

[Fozzz 152]

I don't think the Astros sign stealing meaningfully affected their performance in the 2017 postseason.  I do think the Rangers wouldn't come close to making the playoffs this season even if opposing pitchers informed Rangers' hitters of what they would be throwing prior to every pitch.  

[Sbbruin 22,139]

Just now, Fozzz said:

I don't think the Astros sign stealing meaningfully affected their performance in the 2017 postseason. 

They won the WS in 7 games.  You are certain that sign stealing in no way could have swung one game?

[txhorns 2,421]

Just now, Fozzz said:

I don't think the Astros sign stealing meaningfully affected their performance in the 2017 postseason.  I do think the Rangers wouldn't come close to making the playoffs this season even if opposing pitchers informed Rangers' hitters of what they would be throwing prior to every pitch.  

Then why did they keep doing it?  The idea that it didn't help them is just plain stupid.  Of course it helped.  That's why they started it in the first place.  That's why they kept doing it after the commissioner warned every team about harsher penalties to come.  

[formermav43 4,607]

1 minute ago, txhorns said:

Then why did they keep doing it?  The idea that it didn't help them is just plain stupid.  Of course it helped.  That's why they started it in the first place.  That's why they kept doing it after the commissioner warned every team about harsher penalties to come.  

He didn’t say it didn’t help them.

[Fozzz 152]

Just now, Sbbruin said:

They won the WS in 7 games.  You are certain that sign stealing in no way could have swung one game?

If you played that series 100 times with the Astros stealing signs and 100 times with the Astros not stealing signs, maybe the Astros win a handful more times when stealing signs than without.  I think that's all you can really say about it.  

[WBT 20,956]

2 minutes ago, txhorns said:

Then why did they keep doing it?  The idea that it didn't help them is just plain stupid.  Of course it helped.  That's why they started it in the first place.  That's why they kept doing it after the commissioner warned every team about harsher penalties to come.  

You know the commissioner's report said they stopped before they were caught, right?

[Mez2 4,046]

2 minutes ago, formermav43 said:

He didn’t say it didn’t help them.

Facing yu dervish twice helped us

[Sbbruin 22,139]

2 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

If you played that series 100 times with the Astros stealing signs and 100 times with the Astros not stealing signs, maybe the Astros win a handful more times when stealing signs than without.  I think that's all you can really say about it.  

That's my point.  No way to say it was or wasn't the possible difference.

[Fozzz 152]

2 minutes ago, txhorns said:

Then why did they keep doing it?  The idea that it didn't help them is just plain stupid.  Of course it helped.  That's why they started it in the first place.  That's why they kept doing it after the commissioner warned every team about harsher penalties to come.  

It does help over the course of a 162 game season  and I think it's fair to argue whether or not the Astros' punishment was severe enough to deter other teams from doing the same in the future.  Looking back, in the Astros' case I think it definitely wasn't worth it because they didn't need the additional 3-5 wins they got from cheating.  However, for other teams, those 3-5 wins could have been the difference between making the playoffs and staying home.  

[Eastwood 4,394]

Just now, C-Man said:

And yet seemingly the entirety of MLB's other teams are livid with the Astros over their advanced sign-stealing system -- I find that very telling. It was that egregious.

So livid they waited until Mike Fiers broke the locker room code of silence to speak out about it. They were all moving on with their lives while the MLB looked the other way for as long as possible. If Mike Fiers doesn't say anything, all of these "livid" players would grumble to themselves and then tell stories about it on TV a decade later after they take an analyst job. If the entirety of the MLB was livid, then why didn't any single one team speak up about it outside of the conference room of the MLB front office?

You know what I think is behind all of this, to be honest? Pitchers are sick and tired of having the deck stacked against them. MLB is going to juice the ball, ignoring pitcher complaints in the process, AND do nothing while sign stealing gets more sophisticated? Eventually, something had to give and it's easier to pin the sign stealing crackdown on one team than to indict the whole sport, which has a romanticized tradition on cheating unless it isn't the right kind of cheating. Mike Fiers provided a window for people who didn't have the balls to come forward otherwise.

[Fozzz 152]

1 minute ago, Sbbruin said:

That's my point.  No way to say it was or wasn't the possible difference.

It's possible, but it's extremely unlikely the series hinged on sign stealing.  If it had provided a real, meaningful advantage then I would look at the situation differently, but since sign stealing can only provide such a minuscule advantage in the context of a seven game series it doesn't really bother me.  

[thrillhammer 686]

11 minutes ago, txhorns said:

Then why did they keep doing it?  The idea that it didn't help them is just plain stupid.  Of course it helped.  That's why they started it in the first place.  That's why they kept doing it after the commissioner warned every team about harsher penalties to come.  

you have conveniently blocked out that they had the best road record in the majors.  they werent cheating then.  they had two pitchers on staff that could have won the cy young.  they werent cheating then.  they were the best team in the majors that year and there is no disputing it. there shall be no asterisk.

[Js1 87,152]

16 minutes ago, Mez2 said:

Facing yu dervish twice helped us

[Fozzz 152]

I think the 2019 conspiracy theories are so persistent because so many people believe that sign stealing is some nearly insuperable advantage and since the Astros won 100 games stealing signs in 2017 it must have been due to the sign stealing.  Thus, since they won even more games in 2019 (and the 2019 team is clearly better than the 2017 team in about every way), they must have also been stealing signs then.  The truth of the matter is that Luhnow and his team built a dynasty and didn't need to cheat to do it, which makes it all the more frustrating that they did.

[txhorns 2,421]

Sign stealing can absolutely give a team a huge advantage during a 7 game series.  Whether it did for the Astros we will never know.  Knowing what pitch is coming is a huge advantage to a batter.  Sometimes, though, it doesn't matter because that pitcher has a pitch that is just unhittable at that moment, just ask Bellinger.

[DaysOff 8,172]

Was there

[Fozzz 152]

9 minutes ago, txhorns said:

Sign stealing can absolutely give a team a huge advantage during a 7 game series.  Whether it did for the Astros we will never know.  Knowing what pitch is coming is a huge advantage to a batter.  Sometimes, though, it doesn't matter because that pitcher has a pitch that is just unhittable at that moment, just ask Bellinger.

There are downsides to using the Astros' system in that you have to listen for the sign which may make it more difficult to concentrate on the pitch to be thrown.  At least one Astros player has said they didn't use the system for this very reason.  This topic has also been studied extensively and the estimates on the higher end of effectiveness have it giving them an extra five wins.  Moreover, the system was probably not as effective in the postseason as it was in the regular season due to the increased frequency at which teams were changing signs in the postseason.  

[Beau Vine 55,854]

1 hour ago, thrillhammer said:

i'm not opposed to it.  technology entering the game is inevitable.  my point is that you can't come out with all this faux outrage that "oh wah, poor me, they stole my signs" when you're flashing the signs in front of everyone. 

Are you "flashing the signs in front of everyone" when there's no one on base?  Well, I guess you are if the other team is watching in the video room, which is illegal...

[thrillhammer 686]

1 minute ago, Beau Vine said:

Are you "flashing the signs in front of everyone" when there's no one on base?  Well, I guess you are if the other team is watching in the video room, which is illegal...

of course you are, because there's 3 million people watching on television and they're all seeing it.  the yankees got caught using their own tv network to do this very thing years ago.