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2020 Baseball Cheaters vs the World Thread of Hate

UTexasFight

By UTexasFight
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DCA_HORN
DCA_HORN

Jesus just stop. I've seen whitey Ford pitch in more old timers games than you've been there. The Yankees history didn't start in 1999 or whenever you hopped on board. Except for a few years the Yanke

UTexasFight
UTexasFight

Astros: 2017 World Champs Suck it. Come and take it.     (General thread title to allow for Red Sox/yankees/dodgers/ et al fans to bitch now and then defend later when their teams get popped too).    

formermav43
formermav43

It’s angry fathers of underage girls.

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Helobious

Helobious 9467

Posted
Posted
43 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

Do you support the Yankees being fully investigated by MLB?  

Yes. They’d find absolutely nothing on them. The Yankees & sox did their rudimentary electronic sign stealing, then the MLB issued a league-wide warning. The Astros went full steam ahead anyway. Now all their fans are completely oblivious as to why the Astros punishment differed from the other teams.

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formermav43

formermav43 4606

Posted
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40 minutes ago, Helobious said:

Yes. They’d find absolutely nothing on them. The Yankees & sox did their rudimentary electronic sign stealing, then the MLB issued a league-wide warning. The Astros went full steam ahead anyway. Now all their fans are completely oblivious as to why the Astros punishment differed from the other teams.

Now that’s funny.

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ChickenSandwich

ChickenSandwich 9853

Posted
Posted (edited)
46 minutes ago, Helobious said:

Yes. They’d find absolutely nothing on them. The Yankees & sox did their rudimentary electronic sign stealing, then the MLB issued a league-wide warning. The Astros went full steam ahead anyway. Now all their fans are completely oblivious as to why the Astros punishment differed from the other teams.

So we just take their word for it?  Because Yanks Sox?  We also now have Joe G explaining the scheme while on live TV.  You seem fairly certain they are clean when they had already admitted to cheating.  You have no idea if they simply stopped in the way they were caught and then continued by other means.  They didn't shut down their video replay room or move it further from the dugout.  No staff was laid off.  That plus the statements and already having admitted to guilt, not to mention Beltran and Cora being employed.....that's a lot of smoke.  Zero reason for MLB not to investigate unless they simply want to cover up whatever they haven't found.

 

*and please explain how using an electronic buzzer (Apple Watch) is less egregious than banging on a trash can?  I'll hang up and listen 

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pacman

pacman 7371

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, ChiTownDoc said:

https://www.latimes.com/sports/dodgers/story/2020-02-21/astros-havent-stolen-dodgers-clayton-kershaw-love-for-baseball

LOL, take that Astros fans.  This shit is getting out of control.  

um, wow. f'n journalists. hey, lets ask the $200+ man if he still loves baseball and then right a cheesedick headline to get shares

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Chuckie Finster

Chuckie Finster 22752

Posted
Posted

Sorry to ruin your night, helo.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/columnist/bob-nightengale/2020/02/23/gerrit-cole-new-york-yankees-spring-training/4849898002/
“But I’m telling you, we played fair and square last year. I didn’t see anything in 2018 either. I really didn’t. But no one wants to hear it now.’’

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TexArcher

TexArcher 38076

Posted
Posted
4 hours ago, ChickenSandwich said:

Do you support the Yankees being fully investigated by MLB?  

 

3 hours ago, Helobious said:

Yes. They’d find absolutely nothing on them. The Yankees & sox did their rudimentary electronic sign stealing, then the MLB issued a league-wide warning. The Astros went full steam ahead anyway. Now all their fans are completely oblivious as to why the Astros punishment differed from the other teams.

 

Holy shit, that's amazing.

"Go ahead and investigate the Yankees, because we were only cheating a little and we definitely stopped when the league told us to.  Y'all are a bunch of filthy fucking cheaters, tho!"

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Iceman

Iceman 2726

Posted
Posted (edited)

Cincinnati plays @ the Yankees this season.  Too bad it ain't in the Queen City so Cole could earhole Bauer...

I won't root against Gerrit Cole, regardless of his jersey.  Obviously when/ if he faces Houston, Go Astros! but I won't be hoping for Cole to not do well, if that makes sense.  Kinda like Charlie was last season.

 

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David Dennison

David Dennison 18951

Posted
Posted
20 hours ago, Helobious said:

Yes. They’d find absolutely nothing on them. The Yankees & sox did their rudimentary electronic sign stealing, then the MLB issued a league-wide warning. The Astros went full steam ahead anyway. Now all their fans are completely oblivious as to why the Astros punishment differed from the other teams.

And the punishment wasn't even that big of a deal.

Because sign stealing.

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Guadaloopy

Guadaloopy 11022

Posted
Posted
31 minutes ago, txhorns said:

Didn't the investigation find that the Astros cheated in 18 but not 19?  Wasn't that because of testimony from Astros players?

The report said that the cheating continued into early ‘18, but they stopped it because they felt it wasn’t really effective.  
 

I’m sure that it was a combination of teams implementing countermeasures and a few failures of the system.  It only takes once or twice when your “intel” is wrong to cause you to doubt it and add one more variable to an already complex problem.  

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Iceman

Iceman 2726

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, txhorns said:

Does it even matter?  Astros fans will either say "see everyone was doing it so we shouldn't be punished" or "MLB is lying and covering for the Red Sox.".

Wrong.

Most Astros fans have accepted the punishment.

The questions are around continued lobbying for more from both the media and opposing players( how convenient.)

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txhorns

txhorns 2413

Posted
Posted
39 minutes ago, formermav43 said:

Still don’t get it. It’s not the punishment, it’s the hypocrisy.

Except that not one Astros fan on this forum really knows anything about the hypocrisy yet every single one of them claims as fact that every team was doing the same thing.

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Hank Chinaski

Hank Chinaski 6322

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, txhorns said:

Except that not one Astros fan on this forum really knows anything about the hypocrisy yet every single one of them claims as fact that every team was doing the same thing.

Well, we know that the Red Sox are being investigated for the same thing the Astros have been ravaged for over the last 6 weeks. We know that Dodgers players, for example, have called for player punishments...will they still scream this from the mountaintops when news comes out that their new teammate was involved in a similar scheme? I think that's the "hypocrisy" he's referring to. 

I don't know anything for a fact - but nearly every writer that covers baseball has conceded that the Astros are very likely not the only team to be involved in such a scheme. That doesn't justify the Astros actions, but it should at least spread some of the general outrage to other teams/players and starts to add to the general narrative related to theis "scandal."

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txhorns

txhorns 2413

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, Hank Chinaski said:

Well, we know that the Red Sox are being investigated for the same thing the Astros have been ravaged for over the last 6 weeks. We know that Dodgers players, for example, have called for player punishments...will they still scream this from the mountaintops when news comes out that their new teammate was involved in a similar scheme? I think that's the "hypocrisy" he's referring to. 

I don't know anything for a fact - but nearly every writer that covers baseball has conceded that the Astros are very likely not the only team to be involved in such a scheme. That doesn't justify the Astros actions, but it should at least spread some of the general outrage to other teams/players and starts to add to the general narrative related to theis "scandal."

I would agree that there are likely other teams but not the entire league.  The Dodgers are not hypocrites, yet, but are guaranteed hypocrites in the eyes of every Astros fan.  The Astros fans are so far the only hypocrites.  When the Astros were first accused nearly every one of their fans cried innocent because there was no evidence.  Now that they have been proven guilty every other team is automatically guilty with no evidence, for most anyway.

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formermav43

formermav43 4606

Posted
Posted
58 minutes ago, txhorns said:

Except that not one Astros fan on this forum really knows anything about the hypocrisy yet every single one of them claims as fact that every team was doing the same thing.

No, that’s wrong. On multiple levels. 1) Literally no one that I have seen has ever claimed as a fact that every team was doing the same thing, let alone “every single Astros fan on this forum.” Let’s dispense with that lie at the outset.

2) We absolutely know some things about the hypocrisy. For starters, the original Athletic article that broke this mess open placed the Astros scheme in the context of a widespread problem in baseball. That’s basically been ignored from the outset. So, without even knowing the specifics of every team and their methods, we know the issue exists throughout the sport.

Further, since we are subjected to some random player’s reaction to this almost every day now, we likely have at least one representative from every team on the record at this point. Logically, given that at least some other teams are also electronically stealing signs, at least some of these players have participated in it themselves. Perhaps an even greater number, if they haven’t participated themselves, are aware of other teams who have done similar, but are piling on the Astros as if they’re lone wolves on this. Both of those groups of players are hypocritical.

Beyond that, there were multiple articles published in the last several years alluding to this issue before the Astros story broke. This was an open secret, if it can even be called a secret. The media’s hypocrisy on this is more egregious than the players, in my opinion. Jeff Passan, for instance, wrote about how the Yankees-Red Sox electronic sign stealing was basically no big deal in 2017; now, he has to write 3 articles a week solemnly condemning the Astros. He’s not unique.

That’s without even getting to how arbitrary it is that this is against the rules in the first place. The idea that it’s all perfectly acceptable to steal signs, to study tape to decode a team’s signs pregame, to tip your teammate off to the pitch that’s coming, but somehow using a camera in game to do what it’s ok to do with your eyes during a game or even with a camera after a game causes everyone to rend their jerseys and gnash their teeth and wag their heads gravely about the sanctity of the game just takes baseball’s unwritten rules to a new level of illogic. But whatever.

At any rate, without even knowing exactly what other teams were doing, we know for a fact that this was a widespread issue, yet players are not publicly complaining about other teams and media ignored it or even laughed it off in the past. That’s hypocrisy. 

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WBT

WBT 20672

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Spoiler

‘Something looks a little bit off’: In a postseason of paranoia, some Brewers suspect the Dodgers are stealing signs

 
By Robert Murray Oct 18, 2018comment-icon@2x.png 123 save-icon@2x.png

LOS ANGELES – The moment was so nondescript that you probably missed it. But it underscored that the Milwaukee Brewers, like other teams in these playoffs, are suspicious that their signs are being decoded, either by traditional means or more nefarious methods.

It was the sixth inning of Game 5 of the National League Championship Series at Dodger Stadium. Manny Machado stood alone at second base, beginning to lean toward third. With Chris Taylor at the plate and Corbin Burnes on the mound, Machado signaled to Taylor. First it was jumping in the air, then he began motioning with his hands. Seconds later, Taylor struck out.

As Taylor departed for the Dodgers’ dugout, catcher Erik Kratz went to the mound to talk to Burnes, both putting gloves over their mouths for the duration of the conversation. They were concerned that the Dodgers were picking up their signs, so they discussed their next move. Home-plate umpire Jim Wolf broke up the meeting, and Los Angeles wound up scoring two runs that inning, taking a 3-1 lead. The next inning, they scored two additional runs, bringing the game to 5-1.

“So, did we change signs? Or did we keep them the same?” said Kratz. “How do they know?”

This is the chess match players deal with over the course of the long season, and especially in the playoffs. Teams attempt to find any competitive advantage they can. In this series, multiple Brewers players said, they believe the Dodgers have been picking up their signs.

If the Dodgers are decoding signs, or stealing them, it doesn’t seem to be helping much. As a team, with runners in scoring position in this series, they are hitting .220, with a .599 OPS.

Kratz had no issue with the Dodgers’ conduct, he said. Picking up signs, from the dugout or on the base paths, is legal. Most teams, if not all, do it. It’s long been part of the game.

But if it extends further than that, to the use of off-field personnel or technology, then it would become a violation of Major League Baseball’s rules. And some in the Brewers organization think the Dodgers might be crossing that line.

With allegations this week that the Houston Astros were sending employees toward Cleveland and Boston’s dugouts, paranoia about sign stealing is prevalent in baseball circles. Milwaukee entered the series aware that the Dodgers were among the top teams in the league at picking up signs.

“We knew coming in that they were really good at doing that,” said Brandon Woodruff, who pitched 5.1 innings.

Said Kratz: “You’re definitely aware.”

In addition to the above-mentioned incident with Machado at second base, Milwaukee has noticed a few separate occasions of the Dodgers picking up their signs. They have watched the way players move around and use their hands in motions that seem as if they could be signals. They have monitored it.

“I mean, the whole cameras and things, that’s not something we can really control,” said right-handed pitcher Zach Davies, who made his postseason debut Wednesday. “But when you see guys do certain things out on the field to relay certain signs to hitters, then you know you’ve got to make things a little bit more tricky or complex. It’s definitely something you’re paying attention to.”

The play that stands out, with Machado on second in the sixth inning, is one the Brewers witnessed from the dugout. Davies was in the bullpen when it occurred, so he didn’t get to see it up close. But once he got to the dugout, it was a topic of conversation amongst a group of players.

“You’ve seen a couple times where something looks a little bit off,” Davies said. “That’s something that’s part of the game. When you start using technology and when you start using guys outside of the baseball team to try to figure out what set of signs a pitcher is using, that’s a little… that kind of crosses the line.”

There is concern among some Brewers that the Dodgers are using video to pick up their signs, multiple sources tell The Athletic. One person inside the organization said that on videos of the games, a coach could be seen running from the hallway into the Dodgers’ dugout whenever a runner reached second base, possibly a sign that L.A. was relaying a pitchers’ sequences to the runner during those at-bats.

Others in the organization are unsure, with one saying he didn’t know anything definitively, but “wondered if something was up.”

Sources tell The Athletic that Milwaukee informed Major League Baseball’s “resident security agents,” or RSA, two of whom are stationed in each team’s video replay room, about their suspicions. The security personnel responded that they had not detected anything.

Manager Craig Counsell, through the Brewers’ senior director of media relations Mike Vassallo, declined comment after Wednesday’s game. The Dodgers declined to comment.

Brewers sources admit that they don’t have any direct evidence of malfeasance, but they do have suspicions.

“They use video people to get sequences,” one Brewers source said of the Dodgers. “It’s known throughout the league. MLB knows it’s an issue.”

Said another: “It’s one thing if your signs suck and the runner on second base can tell, but when you have a video person trained on the signs, that’s not right.”

With the series shifting to Miller Park and Brewers trailing in the series, 3-2, Milwaukee faces elimination. They have attempted to strategize around their shortage of proven starters and the Dodgers’ deep roster of hitters by using relievers in unconventional roles in a best-of-seven series. But they’ve also been game-planning around the fear of the Dodgers picking up their signs, whether Los Angeles is doing so legally or illegally.

Milwaukee has engineered a strategy of using multiple signs – or multiple sets of signs – to counteract it, according to Woodruff. He’s been one of Milwaukee’s most effective pitchers in the postseason, routinely eating significant innings in games where an “opener” lasts an inning or two, possibly less. “We were prepared,” he said.

In numerous cases, the Brewers have used multiple signs despite Los Angeles having no runners on base. “That’s a dead giveaway they think something is up,” one rival executive said.

Brewers personnel believe that, despite their fears, the Dodgers haven’t been able to completely figure their signs out. “It’s more [that they] think [they] have them,” says one. And it’s easier to pick up on signs for some pitchers than others.

“If we have Corey Knebel on the mound and the other team goes, ‘We know what sign he’s going with there.’ You’ve got a 50-50 chance – he’s got two pitches,” Kratz said. “Josh Hader, you’re basically 50-50 chance – he’s got two pitches with the occasional changeup in there. If you can give the illusion you’re changing it up and you suddenly throw a little bit of a wrinkle in there, you can’t know the signs unless you have them exactly.”

If the Brewers feel the Dodgers, or any other team, have caught up to their system, Counsell will signal to the catcher to go to the mound. It’s gamesmanship, Kratz said, and something the Brewers will have to deal with in Game 6 and a possible Game 7.

Still, some with the team are concerned that this extends beyond gamesmanship.

“Unless you’re doing bush league stuff where you’re trying to hurt players, not that I’m naming names, that’s where guys draw the line,” Kratz said. “But I think it’s a very hot topic now with the whole Houston Astros employee now in the camera well. I would hope they aren’t doing shady stuff where there are [employees] in the stands or all that stuff.”

 

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Iceman

Iceman 2726

Posted
Posted (edited)

yeah...for free.  Nothing will ever happen.

I don't know if the people are correct, who think the Astros have the goods on other teams and are restricted by an 'agreement' with MLB,;but if they in fact do, MLB officials would be reminded regularly, "Knock off the bullshit towards our players, or the beans get spilt( sic.)"

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Js1

Js1 85602

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Longhornlax said:

I’m curious what exactly these position players threatening violence on the Astros are planning on doing. Are they just going to attack them randomly or is it all just talking like tough guys?

They're just going to be massive vaginas belches like Vic, posting dumb memes and doing nothing. 

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henrygandorf

henrygandorf 29195

Posted
Posted
19 minutes ago, TexArcher said:

Right, because there's no way a pitcher could possibly be ejected and fined for that.  This isn't Nam.

a lot of pitchers don't like throwing to first, especially hard.  i would love to see people try this.  free base on hbp is good.  1st to 3rd on an error is even better.

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TexArcher

TexArcher 38076

Posted
Posted
Just now, henrygandorf said:

a lot of pitchers don't like throwing to first, especially hard.  i would love to see people try this.  free base on hbp is good.  1st to 3rd on an error is even better.

And you can't get as much on a throw to first without a windup off of the rubber anyway.  It's a silly idea.

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