2020 Baseball Cheaters vs the World Thread of Hate

[Mileslong 4,806]

Exactly. Some people never played the game and have this idealistic notion of what it is. I'm romantic as hell about baseball, too, but anyone who's gonna pretend only one or two teams is stealing signs, and then get all fucking indignant and shit, calling people hypocrites and liars ... only needs to look as far as the nearest mirror to see who's in denial, or a hypocrite, or a liar. 
Hell, last weekend in my kid's 14U tournament we figured out a kid had stolen our 'Steal' sign. Nobody freaked out & went screaming "Cheaters!" at the other dugout. Nobody got a heater to the head. We all just laughed it off & changed our fucking sign...

I played until I was 40. Don’t throw out a got damn straw man now. Everyone knows players try to steal signals, coaches try to as well.

The obvious difference is when you use technology to blatantly steal every sign then relay it electronically and with use of audible cues as well to your players it’s 1000x times worse.

It’s like one football team hacking into the headsets of the other teams coaches and relay the exact play that’s about to be run to your defense. Is that cheating? Nah man, just gamesmanship. Everyone is doing it!!1!!

If coaches can pick up signs that’s fine, but using technology is completely different. If you can’t see that I don’t what to tell you

[Eastwood 4,394]

Astros weren't the first to use tech, weren't the only ones using tech, won't be the last to use tech, and teams are still using tech to this day.

[wood 11,763]

1 minute ago, Mileslong said:

I played until I was 40. Don’t throw out a got damn straw man now. Everyone knows players try to steal signals, coaches try to as well.

The obvious difference is when you use technology to blatantly steal every sign then relay it electronically and with use of audible cues as well to your players it’s 1000x times worse.

It’s like one football team hacking into the headsets of the other teams coaches and relay the exact play that’s about to be run to your defense. Is that cheating? Nah man, just gamesmanship. Everyone is doing it!!1!!

If coaches can pick up signs that’s fine, but using technology is completely different. If you can’t see that I don’t what to tell you

Bullshit. It's illegal with or without technology. It's no more legal with technology than it is without.

[Mileslong 4,806]

It's only cheating if someone gains a clear advantage by doing it? LOL. OK. Yeah, you try again.
And you've probably never played baseball if you've never played for a team that was trying to steal signs.

Again, I played in various leagues until I was 40, how about you Yogi?

Read my post below, if you can’t see the difference between the age old practice of players trying to steal signs and using technology to remove all doubt then you’re a moron.

[wood 11,763]

2 minutes ago, Eastwood said:

Astros weren't the first to use tech, weren't the only ones using tech, won't be the last to use tech, and teams are still using tech to this day.

Yep, and now they have a scapegoat to deflect attention away from them.

[Mileslong 4,806]

Bullshit. It's illegal with or without technology. It's no more legal with technology than it is without.

Wow just wow. So one football team should be able to hack into the other teams coaches headsets? Yes or no

[wood 11,763]

2 minutes ago, Mileslong said:

Again, I played in various leagues until I was 40, how about you Yogi?

Read my post below, if you can’t see the difference between the age old practice of players trying to steal signs and using technology to remove all doubt then you’re a moron.

Yeah, same here. Played into my 40s. And stealing signs is illegal. Period. And everyone fucking does it. Period.

Your stupid attempts to justify one version (no tech) while decrying the other is the height of hypocrisy. All while calling anyone who can see reality a hypocrite and a liar. Fuck off  the fuck outta here with that bullshit.

[Sbbruin 22,142]

9 minutes ago, Mileslong said:

I played until I was 40. Don’t throw out a got damn straw man now. Everyone knows players try to steal signals, coaches try to as well.

The obvious difference is when you use technology to blatantly steal every sign then relay it electronically and with use of audible cues as well to your players it’s 1000x times worse.

It’s like one football team hacking into the headsets of the other teams coaches and relay the exact play that’s about to be run to your defense. Is that cheating? Nah man, just gamesmanship. Everyone is doing it!!1!!

If coaches can pick up signs that’s fine, but using technology is completely different. If you can’t see that I don’t what to tell you

That's honestly one of the best analogies I've seen.  Well done.

[wood 11,763]

3 minutes ago, Mileslong said:

Wow just wow. So one football team should be able to hack into the other teams coaches headsets? Yes or no

LOL...and you accused me of making a straw man? I never said anything like that. The Astros cheated. I never said they didn't.

It's high & mighty, holier than thou pricks like you pretending the Astros are  the only ones that I have a problem with.

[Mileslong 4,806]

That's honestly one of the best analogies I've seen.  Well done.

Thanks and it’s a question these two rubes won’t answer

[Sbbruin 22,142]

Just now, Mileslong said:

Thanks and it’s a question these two rubes won’t answer

The difference between a runner on 2nd trying to steal signs and relaying it to his teammate, versus having some tech/computer nerds who have no affiliation with the team (i.e. players and coaches) using tech to rapidly relay the info is so wildly different it's not even in the same universe.  But they'll never be convinced of it, and nothing will come of it, so time to move on.  That mini-sweep felt nice.

[Mileslong 4,806]

LOL...and you accused me of making a straw man? I never said anything like that. The Astros cheated. I never said they didn't.
It's high & mighty, holier than thou pricks like you pretending the Astros are  the only ones that I have a problem with.

My example was a perfect analogy not a straw man argument. You still haven’t answered the question posed in my analogy.

Would you be cool if Lincoln Riley was using technology to listen to Tim Herman call plays? Is that just part of the game and cheating is cheating?

[wood 11,763]

Just now, Mileslong said:

Thanks and it’s a question these two rubes won’t answer

Jesus, you're an insufferable dipshit. I said the Astros cheated. Of course nobody should be allowed to hack into headsets, but I never said they should be allowed to do that.

Stealing signs is illegal and happens every single fucking game in MLB. You're trying to pretend it doesn't happen by distinguishing one method of stealing them vs another, and saying one is ok and one isn't. 

That's some crazy stretching if I ever saw it.

[wood 11,763]

4 minutes ago, Sbbruin said:

The difference between a runner on 2nd trying to steal signs and relaying it to his teammate, versus having some tech/computer nerds who have no affiliation with the team (i.e. players and coaches) using tech to rapidly relay the info is so wildly different it's not even in the same universe.  But they'll never be convinced of it, and nothing will come of it, so time to move on.  That mini-sweep felt nice.

Sure it's different. And one is just as illegal as the other. And that's something you two dumbasses will never understand or admit.

[Mileslong 4,806]

Jesus, you're an insufferable dipshit. I said the Astros cheated. Of course nobody should be allowed to hack into headsets, but I never said they should be allowed to do that.

Stealing signs is illegal and happens every single fucking game in MLB. You're trying to pretend it doesn't happen by distinguishing one method of stealing them vs another, and saying one is ok and one isn't. 

That's some crazy stretching if I ever saw it.

No, one example is more in the gamesmanship category and the other is about as far right in the cheating linear graph as you can get. One is illegal and one isn’t, guess which?

 

There is a difference between using technology which removes all doubt and some guy in the middle of action trying to catch a glimpse and attempting to relay some he thing he think he may have seen. A message that may or may not be conveyed accurately.

 

It’s like when I was trying to explain right and wrong to my then three year old daughter.

[StruggleBus 3,922]

I love the Astros. I hope they keep cheating and I hope the rest of you gaping vaginas keep crying about it. 

[Smax 3,800]

No, one example is more in the gamesmanship category and the other is about as far right in the cheating linear graph as you can get. One is illegal and one isn’t, guess which?
 

MLB rule book disagrees, but hey you played sports into your 40s

[youdunnf'dup 2,147]

39 minutes ago, Eastwood said:

Astros weren't the first to use tech, weren't the only ones using tech, won't be the last to use tech, and teams are still using tech to this day.

There are levels to cheating. Just like there are different levels of crime. There are different levels of everything. The Astros were part of the biggest cheating scandal in the history of the sport. Maybe any sport? What part of this do we not understand. They didn’t take your title and you pulled off the biggest cheating scandal in the sport. That in and of itself is an “accomplishment”. But I love how Astros fans are like “what, cheating is cheating” lol. There’s a reason there are different penalties for armed robbery and murder. “What, a crime is a crime” lol

[Loch Ness Monster 3,533]

If NFL teams aren't hacking the other coaches headsets to steal plays and recording their practices- do they even want to win?

[Eastwood 4,394]

29 minutes ago, Mileslong said:

Thanks and it’s a question these two rubes won’t answer

Should NFL teams hack headsets? No. Should teams be using tech to steal signs? No. I can recall murmurs and grumbling about visiting team headset outages in the NFL, but no outright headset hacking. We've had plenty of examples of teams using tech to steal signs, though.

My overall beef with the MLB is that it doesn't seem to care about rule enforcement. They let shit go until they have absolutely no choice but to publicly address it. The MLB front office is the least proactive and most reactive front office in all of sports and the most mismanaged front office in all of sports. It's your absolute prerogative as a fan to come in here and sling shit in Astro fans' faces for cheating. By all means. But do so with the honest realization that this was a league-wide problem, not an Astros problem. The ridiculous pearl clutching over all of this is insane. Jomboy wants to start buzzer conspiracy theories when the Red Sox were using actual buzzers through Apple watches. People want to call the Astros the worst cheaters in baseball history but the Cardinals literally committed a federal crime to cheat by hacking.

What I have been saying in this thread is that baseball fans and pitchers need to let this go. You got your licks in, you can throw your mental asterisk on the 2017 trophy, go with God. But the Astros are going to get tired of being whipping boys on this. The fact that the front office gave the Astros blanket immunity and issued zero punishment after their investigation should be a huge red flag to the fan base of the entire league. The Astros and the front office made a deal. Why? I think we know why. The pitchers aren't happy with it. Delusional baseball fans who overly romanticize the game and sit at home with their glove in their lap and actively score the game with a pencil and paper aren't happy with it. Joe Kelly wasn't happy with it, obviously, and the MLB wasn't happy with Joe Kelly because every time somebody does that shit, we have to talk about rampant cheating in the MLB going unpunished. Again.

[Mileslong 4,806]

MLB rule book disagrees, but hey you played sports into your 40s

[Eastwood 4,394]

11 minutes ago, youdunnf'dup said:

The Astros were part of the biggest cheating scandal in the history of the sport. Maybe any sport?

 

1 minute ago, Eastwood said:

 The ridiculous pearl clutching over all of this is insane. Jomboy wants to start buzzer conspiracy theories when the Red Sox were using actual buzzers through Apple watches. People want to call the Astros the worst cheaters in baseball history but the Cardinals literally committed a federal crime to cheat by hacking.

Insane. Biggest cheating scandal in the history of the sport? ANY sport? Ever? C'mon, son.

[youdunnf'dup 2,147]

12 minutes ago, Eastwood said:

 

Insane. Biggest cheating scandal in the history of the sport? ANY sport? Ever? C'mon, son.

In terms of cheating on an organization level to gain a competitive advantage over the league, yeah. I said what I said. 

[ztejas 44,223]

32 minutes ago, youdunnf'dup said:

There are levels to cheating. Just like there are different levels of crime. There are different levels of everything. The Astros were part of the biggest cheating scandal in the history of the sport. Maybe any sport? What part of this do we not understand. They didn’t take your title and you pulled off the biggest cheating scandal in the sport. That in and of itself is an “accomplishment”. But I love how Astros fans are like “what, cheating is cheating” lol. There’s a reason there are different penalties for armed robbery and murder. “What, a crime is a crime” lol

Oh please. I mean fuck the Astros to the bottom of my heart but my Rangers diehardness goes back much farther than 2017. I don't think what the Astros did was any worse than the Pats filming other team's practices. 

I mean, you're talking about a sport in which players once actively threw a World Series for gambling money. 

I'm going to put more of an asterisk on this NBA bubble season than I ever would on that Astros title.

[Saint Tacky 1,647]

4 hours ago, Mileslong said:

And your astros are the little cheating bitches of baseball, which is worse?

Name a team that isn't. The Astros are just the only team in MLB to get a speeding ticket at the Indy 500. So far.

[youdunnf'dup 2,147]

10 minutes ago, ztejas said:

Oh please. I mean fuck the Astros to the bottom of my heart but my Rangers diehardness goes back much farther than 2017. I don't think what the Astros did was any worse than the Pats filming other team's practices. 

I mean, you're talking about a sport in which players once actively threw a World Series for gambling money. 

I'm going to put more of an asterisk on this NBA bubble season than I ever would on that Astros title.

I said to gain a competitive advantage over their opponents. Throwing games isn’t exactly ruining young pitchers careers for the teams they’re facing.

 

And for the record, i say this and I would want my team to do it in a heart beat if it results in a flag flying forever. Let me make that clear. It has an asterisks though. And unless someone cheats in the NBA, this is a more legitimate title than the Astros lol

Edited July 30, 2020 by youdunnf'dup

[FondrenRoad 4,378]

3 minutes ago, youdunnf'dup said:

I said to gain a competitive advantage over their opponents. Throwing games isn’t exactly ruining young pitchers careers for the teams they’re facing.

 

And for the record, i say this and I would want my team to do it in a heart beat if it results in a flag flying forever. Let me make that clear.

That's why the Yankees, Red Sox, and Dodgers were doing it too, and got caught doing it.  They wanted to win.  They simply didn't get punished because of the hats they wear.  The Nats are the only "seemingly" clean team at the top of the MLB lately.  And I say seemingly because they probably weren't either.

[WBT 20,966]

In this thread I've learned that intentionally losing is a form of cheating to win.

[youdunnf'dup 2,147]

3 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

That's why the Yankees, Red Sox, and Dodgers were doing it too, and got caught doing it.  They wanted to win.  They simply didn't get punished because of the hats they wear.  The Nats are the only "seemingly" clean team at the top of the MLB lately.  And I say seemingly because they probably weren't either.

No they just didn’t do it to the level that the Astros did it. Pretty self explanatory, actually. Again, can’t fault a team for cheating more than everyone else if they aren’t going to take the title away. In the end, they won.

Edited July 30, 2020 by youdunnf'dup

[Eastwood 4,394]

Quote

MLB Commissioner Rob Manfred reportedly now has the power to suspend players without pay or service time if they are caught stealing signs electronically.

According to Evan Drellich of The Athletic, there is no set number of games that a player will be suspended if they violate the sign-stealing rules, as punishments will be at Manfred's discretion.

Per Drellich, the language in the document outlining MLB's new sign-stealing rules suggests general managers and managers will continue to be held responsible as well: "It is the responsibility of the Club's top baseball operations official and field manager to ensure that all players, baseball operations staff and field staff understand the requirements."

 

In addition to Manfred having the right to suspend players for electronic sign-stealing, MLB reportedly hired an outside security firm to guard the entrance to teams' replay video rooms. Also, MLB is planning to edit signs out of the footage players can look at during games no later than next season.

The subject of player discipline in sign-stealing cases has been a hot-button issue this week, as Los Angeles Dodgers reliever Joe Kelly threw at Houston Astros stars Alex Bregman and Carlos Correa on Tuesday.

Kelly was suspended eight games for his actions, no small punishment in a 60-game season. That didn't sit well with those who wanted Astros players to be disciplined for their role in the electronic sign-stealing scandal in 2017.

Manfred granted the players immunity and instead punished general manager Jeff Luhnow and manager A.J. Hinch, both of whom were fired by the Astros after they were suspended for one year each.

MLB also investigated the Boston Red Sox for illegal sign-stealing during the 2018 season, but their players were granted immunity as well.

Boston was docked a 2020 second-round draft pick, replay operator J.T. Watkins was banned for the 2020 season, and former manager Alex Cora was also suspended for 2020, although that stemmed from his role in the Astros' sign-stealing scandal in 2017 when he was their bench coach.

Many players spoke out against the Astros players during the spring for their apparent lack of remorse for cheating, so it was assumed going into the season there would be some self-policing on the field.

That conversation died down when the start of the season was delayed four months because of the coronavirus pandemic, but Kelly put it right back at the forefront this week.

Players previously had no real fear of repercussions, but now that MLB has rules in place that can result in guys getting suspended and losing money, perhaps that is the deterrent needed to get illegal sign-stealing out of the game.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2902334-report-new-rule-allows-mlb-to-suspend-players-without-pay-for-stealing-signs?utm_source=cnn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=editorial

Oh.

[FondrenRoad 4,378]

1 minute ago, youdunnf'dup said:

No they just didn’t do it to the level that the Astros did it. Pretty self explanatory, actually 

And the shit Luis Gonzalez took wasn't as good as the cream and the clear.  The intent was exactly the same however.

[Saint Tacky 1,647]

1 hour ago, Sbbruin said:

Every single non-Astros fan sees this clearly.  However, they see it as a non-issue.  "Yeah, stealing signs caused Cody Bellinger to strike out a bazillion times!"  It was a 7 game series.  The balance need only be tipped a microgram for the results to flip.  But I'm done talking about it.  They have one tainted championship.  Enjoy it.

And where is that microgram relative to losing two home games? Or, winning on the road to take back home field advantage? Where do those fall on the invisible scale that was apparently tipped in Houston's favor?

I understand why Dodger fans' need to hyper-focus on something that no one is certain did play a role or can show played a role in their Series loss. It's easier than the non-issue standing like the elephant in the middle of the room. Their team lost 2-home games in the Series and despite beating those "cheating bitches" in Houston, lost the World Series. It's exactly why Cody Bellinger wants to bellyache about being cheated rather than talking about going 4 for 28 and striking out 17 times. 17 fucking times! Where does a crucial hit by Bellinger at a key moment fall on your microgram scale?

Edited July 30, 2020 by Saint Tacky

[youdunnf'dup 2,147]

9 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

And the shit Luis Gonzalez took wasn't as good as the cream and the clear.  The intent was exactly the same however.

I think you’re thinking about it the wrong way. Its more about having the audacity to take the cheating as far as they did. Everyone wants to have a competitive advantage. Nobody had the audacity to take it as far as the Astros did. And maybe they didn’t because they assumed the punishment would be worse. Who knows. But the Astros took it further than everyone else, got caught, but ultimately are the big winners because even though they’re known as cheaters, they have that title forever. That’s all that matters.

[Saint Tacky 1,647]

10 minutes ago, youdunnf'dup said:

No they just didn’t do it to the level that the Astros did it.

What, like this level? Dodgers' Glass House

Quote

In Los Angeles, the Dodgers' video room three years ago played host to starter Zack Greinke watching for weaknesses in opposing hitters. This season, the set up has a much different objective.

This year, if you walked into the same room you would have found a small army of 20-something analysts in polo shirts and slacks pouring over video from the in-house cameras, like the security room at a Vegas casino. Most teams train their cameras on the catcher, the pitcher (from several angles), the third base coach and the dugout.

These cameras are not used for training purposes. They are used expressly for stealing signs and deciphering “tells” from pitchers.

"We’ve reached a point,” said one club executive, “where the attractiveness of the sport as an entertainment option has been lost in the quest to find every incremental edge. And video has changed things rapidly. I’m increasingly thinking something has to be done."

 

[Eastwood 4,394]

15 minutes ago, Eastwood said:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2902334-report-new-rule-allows-mlb-to-suspend-players-without-pay-for-stealing-signs?utm_source=cnn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=editorial

Oh.

 

1 minute ago, youdunnf'dup said:

I think you’re thinking about it the wrong way. Its more about having the audacity to take the cheating as far as they did. Everyone wants to have a competitive advantage. Nobody had the audacity to take it as far as the Astros did. And maybe they didn’t because they assumed the punishment would be worse. Who knows. But the Astros took it further than everyone else, got caught, but ultimately are the big winners because even though they’re known as cheaters, they have that title forever. That’s all that matters.

Or...

[youdunnf'dup 2,147]

6 minutes ago, Saint Tacky said:

What, like this level? Dodgers' Glass House

 

I didn’t see in that article where it talks about how they relayed it to the hitters in real time. Did i miss that? I glossed over it. I don’t remember them reporting that when it came out.

Edited July 30, 2020 by youdunnf'dup

[ztejas 44,223]

14 minutes ago, WBT said:

In this thread I've learned that intentionally losing is a form of cheating to win.

I didn't say that. But throwing games is definitely dirtier and much easier to pull off than trying to win while stealing signs. And it affects the games just as much if not more.

11 minutes ago, Saint Tacky said:

I understand why Dodger fans' need to hyper-focus on something that no one is certain did play a role or can show played a role in their Series loss. It's easier than the non-issue standing like the elephant in the middle of the room. Their team lost 2-home games in the Series and despite beating those "cheating bitches" in Houston, lost the World Series. It's exactly why Cody Bellinger wants to bellyache about being cheated rather than talking about going 4 for 28 and striking out 17 times. 17 fucking times! Where does a crucial hit by Bellinger at a key moment fall on your microgram scale?

Ah yes. "If they wanted to win, they should have played better!"

There are some 2002 Kings fans that I can put you in touch with that you can outline this fascinating take to.

[youdunnf'dup 2,147]

8 minutes ago, ztejas said:

I didn't say that. But throwing games is definitely dirtier and much easier to pull off than trying to win while stealing signs. And it affects the games just as much if not more.

When i think about cheating at its core, I think about trying to gain a competitive advantage over my opponent/the rest of the league. If you think about it like that, nobody has done it better than what the Astros just pulled off. In all of sports. It’s actually kind of commendable. The GOAT cheaters. If you’re going to do it, you might as well go all out if they aren’t gonna strip you’re title 

Edited July 30, 2020 by youdunnf'dup

[Guadaloopy 11,129]

1 minute ago, youdunnf'dup said:

I didn’t see in that article where it talks about how they relayed it to the hitters in real time, did i miss that? I glossed over it. I don’t remember them reporting that when it came out.

So they were spying and decoding signals for the fun of it? Of course the info was getting to the hitters in some way.  There’s no point in doing it otherwise.

You don’t build a gun unless you want to fire bullets.  
 

[youdunnf'dup 2,147]

6 minutes ago, Guadaloopy said:

So they were spying and decoding signals for the fun of it? Of course the info was getting to the hitters in some way.  There’s no point in doing it otherwise.

You don’t build a gun unless you want to fire bullets.  
 

I would assume they were doing it so they could give their base runners more info when they’re on 2nd trying to steal signs the respectable way lol. I say that half way kidding, but seriously i think that’s what they were doing. I still think the Astros system was the GOAT cheating scandal, and there’s nothing wrong with that. You might as well lean into it.

Its also kinda rich that we’re assuming the dodgers did something when we’re not allowed to assume the Astros didn’t cheat even more than what we already know. Because I think it’s safe to assume that’s pretty likely. But there’s no way of proving it. So again, that’s a win for the Astros 

Edited July 30, 2020 by youdunnf'dup

[Saint Tacky 1,647]

1 minute ago, youdunnf'dup said:

I didn’t see in that article where it talks about how they relayed it to the hitters in real time, did i miss that? I glossed over it. I don’t remember them reporting that when it came out.

You're right. They were just doing it for the hell of it and none of the information gathered was passed along or utilized in real time. 

That's a real leap to an inane depths of rationalization it would take to justify your assessment that no one was doing this at the Astros' level.  The Dodgers' had approximately 20-employees in a video room set up for the expressed purpose of "stealing signs and deciphering “tells” from pitchers" but they didn't utilize it for the intended purpose.

Of course you didn't hear it. Just like you don't hear anything about the Dodgers' video room, or that the Brewers were neck deep in this shit, or why MLB hid and is now fighting to keep the Yankees' transgressions under seal. MLB and Manfred have fought tooth and nail to make this an Astros issue because it has to stay an Astros issue or everything is at risk.

[Guadaloopy 11,129]

So they used technology to decode signals, sent that info on how to read the signals to the players, and then had the players relay the info in real time from second base?  

That’s still a clear violation of the rules barring the use of tech in sign stealing.  It’s a distinction without a difference to what the Astros were doing.  
 

The Astros eliminated steps and were more efficient, but it’s essentially the same process and the same rules violation.   But the Astros are sooooo much worse than everyone else?  Right. 

Edited July 30, 2020 by Guadaloopy

[ztejas 44,223]

9 minutes ago, youdunnf'dup said:

When i think about cheating at its core, I think about trying to gain a competitive advantage over my opponent/the rest of the league. If you think about it like that, nobody has done it better than what the Astros just pulled off. In all of sports. It’s actually kind of commendable. The GOAT cheaters. If you’re going to do it, you might as well go all out if they aren’t gonna strip you’re title 

Oh I mean it's up there for sure. I guess I was trying to make the point that 1919 was more tainted and less in the spirit of competition.

If you're going to put it up there with worst cheating scandals of all time you'd first have to ignore the entire history of the Olympics, which more years than not is basically a cheating contest. Probably professional cycling, too.

From there, it would be hard to unseat this for #1 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calciopoli.

The Astros could maybe make a case for 2nd - but I don't think enough has yet come out about what other teams were or weren't doing.

And this is without talking about what level of cheating you could reasonably beleive has been pulled off without getting caught.

[youdunnf'dup 2,147]

1 minute ago, Saint Tacky said:

You're right. They were just doing it for the hell of it and none of the information gathered was passed along or utilized in real time. 

That's a real leap to an inane depths of rationalization it would take to justify your assessment that no one was doing this at the Astros' level.  The Dodgers' had approximately 20-employees in a video room set up for the expressed purpose of "stealing signs and deciphering “tells” from pitchers" but they didn't utilize it for the intended purpose.

Of course you didn't hear it. Just like you don't hear anything about the Dodgers' video room, or that the Brewers were neck deep in this shit, or why MLB hid and is now fighting to keep the Yankees' transgressions under seal. MLB and Manfred have fought tooth and nail to make this an Astros issue because it has to stay an Astros issue or everything is at risk.

I’m not even saying that you’re wrong, but that’s what i would say if my team was caught in the biggest cheating scandal and I haven’t leaned into it as a fan. There’s a reason the players, coaches, and fans of the 29 other organizations are in agreement on this one. Whether real or not; perception is reality. That team will be known as the biggest team of cheaters in sports unless they win a legit title. But again, it doesn’t matter. They have that ‘17 championship forever and nobody is taking away that piece of medal.

[Saint Tacky 1,647]

18 minutes ago, ztejas said:

Ah yes. "If they wanted to win, they should have played better!"

There are some 2002 Kings fans that I can put you in touch with that you can outline this fascinating take to.

That's some skilled reasoning on your part and deft maneuvering to avoid the argument. You should give law school a try. 

[Eastwood 4,394]

1 minute ago, Saint Tacky said:

Of course you didn't hear it. Just like you don't hear anything about the Dodgers' video room, or that the Brewers were neck deep in this shit, or why MLB hid and is now fighting to keep the Yankees' transgressions under seal. MLB and Manfred have fought tooth and nail to make this an Astros issue because it has to stay an Astros issue or everything is at risk.

Which is why the Astros walked and why any player who continues to bring attention to it this season (Joe Kelly, come on down) is going to get rung up.

To continue on a point I've touched on earlier, I really do feel for pitchers and why they're mad. They have to deal with juiced players because homeruns bring ratings. They have to deal with a juiced ball because homeruns bring ratings. They have to deal with sign stealing because homeruns bring ratings. There are probably guys out there sitting at a desk wearing business casual right now because his last pitch in the minors was to some juiced dude who jacked a juiced ball out of the park after being fed the sign from a guy in the rafters with a camera. It really does suck. But the MLB allows it.

[Saint Tacky 1,647]

5 minutes ago, Guadaloopy said:

The Astros eliminated steps and were more efficient, but it’s essentially the same process and the same rules violation. 

I'm not certain that banging on a trash can rises to the level of more efficient when the Yankees and Red Sox were using Apple watches and real-time electronic relays.

[youdunnf'dup 2,147]

1 minute ago, Saint Tacky said:

I'm not certain that banging on a trash can rises to the level of more efficient when the Yankees and Red Sox were using Apple watches and real-time electronic relays.

Like buzzers inside their jersey? Lol

[ztejas 44,223]

7 minutes ago, Saint Tacky said:

That's some skilled reasoning on your part and deft maneuvering to avoid the argument. You should give law school a try. 

You were presenting an argument? It sounded more like an embarassing attempt at deflecting culpability, which I wouldn't consider an argument worth addressing.

I mean, I'm aware of what thread I'm on but we can all be adults here. No one is taking away your title.

[Guadaloopy 11,129]

2 minutes ago, youdunnf'dup said:

Like buzzers inside their jersey? Lol

Why don’t you just say that the Astros have a tub filled with pre-cogs?  Since we’re now writing fiction and all.