2020 Baseball Cheaters vs the World Thread of Hate

[Cornfusion 250]

On 2/21/2020 at 12:15 PM, Iconoclast Texan said:

Embrace the hate.

You stole those rings first, so it's only fair if somebody steals them from you.

Edited March 3, 2020 by Cornfusion

[Cornfusion 250]

On 2/28/2020 at 4:16 PM, Gucci_Suit said:

This thread just seems like a bunch of Astros fans baiting non-Astros fans into making comments about how their team cheated so that they can collectively pitchfork the haters. 

Anyway, I was thinking about how to get them to like being in the AL more. So- I thought maybe the AL should be allowed to use the designated hitter AND trash cans. While the NL would use neither. When the Cubs come to the juice box, they have to deal with juggling the lineup to deal with the DH and also find someone to run to Walmart for a trash can. Could be good. Like, a good outcome from all of this. 

The Astros would just pound on their trash cans to drown out the Cubs trash cans and confuse the batters.  Cheating is what cheaters do... or maybe more to the point, it's who they ARE.

[Beau Vine 53978]

Passan:

Quote

And what about you and the rest of the media? Aren't you part of this too?

Absolutely. The media does play a part in stories of this magnitude, and we should be held to account on words past and present. Of particular interest to Astros fans have been some past words I wrote when the Red Sox were fined for illicitly using an Apple Watch, the first punishment levied in the sign-stealing era.

Here's what I said: "The entire charade is patently absurd. Almost every team in baseball blurs the line of cheating on a daily basis."

Here's the truth: It was a bad take. One that did allude to deeper issues -- "Some executives fear a slap on the wrist will enable those tempted to go beyond stealing signs," I wrote later in the piece -- but I didn't fully digest the gravity of what was going on in baseball.

Sliming the media is easy, and wearing that slime is part of the job, and those who believe this amounts to a sign that I hold the Astros to a different standard than the 29 other teams are entitled to that belief. It's not true. Opinions evolve, and the more I spoke with people in the game, the more details about what the Astros did emerged. As more details emerged, the depth of their cheating was significant compared to other teams'. Yes, other teams blurred the line. The Astros erased it -- an erasure they themselves admitted to as they apologized and apologized again and apologized once more.

I'm glad my opinion evolved, by the way. Opinions are clay, not stone. They should be malleable, shaped by new fact sets rather than dogma. Moral intransigence and intellectual incuriosity are sins far worthier of scorn.

 

[TexArcher 37506]

19 minutes ago, Cornfusion said:

The Astros would just pound on their trash cans to drown out the Cubs trash cans and confuse the batters.  Cheating is what cheaters do... or maybe more to the point, it's who they ARE.

Look at you, spitting hot takes!  You went to the hole strong right there, Cowherd.

[Js1 85085]

22 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

Passan:

 

[horn4life 3753]

There is only one real question now. Can the Astros keep winning games?  

The same organization that banned Pete Rose for life decided not to strip the Astros of their title.  I personally hate cheating.  But fuck as a long suffering Astros fan, and former Oiler fan I'm not giving anything back.  Now go out and win and shut them all down.  It's gonna be hard. And the only way I think at this point is to take a page out of Kobe Bryant's playbook and go Black Mamba.   I would have super dark blue, basically black with orange accent uniforms, and a lot more dark colored gear for fans. 

You can't stop the hate. Even giving back the rings wouldn't stop that, so Go Black Mamba and go kick some ass.  Use getting hit by balls as part of your small ball strategy for example.   Hell I would have every player try to get hit.  The more Astros get hit the better PR that is ultimately for the Astros over time.  Maybe getting a few pitcher ejections as the league "protects" them from the bean ball strategy. I would try to get hit, and I would mention the importance (if true) of that player getting on base in post game interviews.  Simply make the bean ball strategy work against your opponent.

Going to be an interesting season for the Astros, I'm still gonna be a fan.  It's gonna be impossible to deal with the endless fan selfie abuse if you don't embrace the dark side.. Luke.

[Chuckie Finster 22598]

1 hour ago, Beau Vine said:

Passan:

 

Fucking infuriating that "SEE!  The Astros apologized, so obviously the know what they did was wrong!!" and "The Astros haven't even apologized or shown any remorse" are somehow both accepted as valid talking points.

[Cornfusion 250]

Quote

Look at you, spitting hot takes!  You went to the hole strong right there, Cowherd.

I don't think Houston is going to enjoy very many road games this year. 

So just remember:  No whining when the fallout from opposing fans starts.  As they used to say,  "They that sow the wind, shall reap the whirlwind".

We'll leave it right here, unless I have to refer back to this later in the season as a reminder who started this feud with MLB.  Okay?

[closetojumping 62141]

1 hour ago, horn4life said:

There is only one real question now. Can the Astros keep winning games?  

The same organization that banned Pete Rose for life decided not to strip the Astros of their title.  I personally hate cheating.  But fuck as a long suffering Astros fan, and former Oiler fan I'm not giving anything back.  Now go out and win and shut them all down.  It's gonna be hard. And the only way I think at this point is to take a page out of Kobe Bryant's playbook and go Black Mamba.   I would have super dark blue, basically black with orange accent uniforms, and a lot more dark colored gear for fans. 

You can't stop the hate. Even giving back the rings wouldn't stop that, so Go Black Mamba and go kick some ass.  Use getting hit by balls as part of your small ball strategy for example.   Hell I would have every player try to get hit.  The more Astros get hit the better PR that is ultimately for the Astros over time.  Maybe getting a few pitcher ejections as the league "protects" them from the bean ball strategy. I would try to get hit, and I would mention the importance (if true) of that player getting on base in post game interviews.  Simply make the bean ball strategy work against your opponent.

Going to be an interesting season for the Astros, I'm still gonna be a fan.  It's gonna be impossible to deal with the endless fan selfie abuse if you don't embrace the dark side.. Luke.

I'm similar to this. I fucking hate this cheating shit. One of my best friends has a close relative high inside the org and I'd heard about the antics going on for years, including the codebreaker and buzzer stuff. I didn't like hearing it, but I could live in some version of self-denial about it until it all went public. Then you've got to rationalize despising guys like ATM and OU for being dirty, cheating motherfuckers for decades, and yet now here is a team I have suffered with, tarnishing its one title. Fuck.

I'll still enjoy the title. I played at levels high enough for sign-stealing to be a critical part of the game. I never wanted to get the calls. Not because that was cheating - it wasn't - but because it fucked me up at the plate. I choose to believe the sign-stealing didn't determine the outcomes for the stros over the past five years, but I'm also cheering for this season to validate that via continued high production. 

In any event, I do wonder if I'll go to as many games this year. I pretty much watch any game I can when business and family will allow, so at least 120 per season in person or on tv. I can't help but feel like I won't be as excited this cycle, but I'm probably wrong and will be sucked right back in. So I apparently root for a cheater, and I am not going to sit around and defend it, but I'm also not going to apologize for it.

What fucking choice do most of us have? I've been going to Astros games since I was a baby and they were playing Philly to go to the series. I have no choice who I'm rooting for, so I guess fuck the rest of the hypocrites if they can't take a joke. Go win the world series and make them all bawl in their bland fucking cheerios one more time.

[horn4life 3753]

As a side note  here is a joke I made up.

You know where you see the most pee on the floor don't you? At the Astro Buddy's urinal, and at the finest dining establishments in the world!

[Beau Vine 53978]

I thought that starting the post with a Pete Rose comparison would be the nadir of this post.

1 hour ago, horn4life said:

And the only way I think at this point is to take a page out of Kobe Bryant's playbook and go Black Mamba.   I would have super dark blue, basically black with orange accent uniforms, and a lot more dark colored gear for fans. 

I was wrong.

[Guadaloopy 10917]

1 hour ago, closetojumping said:

In any event, I do wonder if I'll go to as many games this year. I pretty much watch any game I can when business and family will allow, so at least 120 per season in person or on tv. I can't help but feel like I won't be as excited this cycle, but I'm probably wrong and will be sucked right back in. So I apparently root for a cheater, and I am not going to sit around and defend it, but I'm also not going to apologize for it.

What fucking choice do most of us have? I've been going to Astros games since I was a baby and they were playing Philly to go to the series. I have no choice who I'm rooting for, so I guess fuck the rest of the hypocrites if they can't take a joke. Go win the world series and make them all bawl in their bland fucking cheerios one more time.

You nailed my inner struggle.  
 

Wife has already told me that there is no way she is making the trip from SD with me to see any of the games in Anaheim this year.  She wants to give it a year to blow over.   Crazy turn of events since the last game we went to there was so amazing with JV’s 300/3000 and clinching best record in MLB.   

[Hank Chinaski 6310]

Also Passan:

Spoiler

So when Cincinnati Reds pitcher Trevor Bauer tells Real Sports that 70% of major league pitchers use some sort of illegal substance, whether it's pine tar or Firm Grip or some witch's brew, and nobody at the league disputes that because 70% is actually probably light, well, that's a conundrum. Particularly considering better grip equals more spin, and more spin typically equals superior pitching.

 

As Ben Clemens noted at FanGraphs on Monday, Bauer's spin rate on his fastball jumped to an average of 2,757 rpm over his final four starts, according to Statcast data. His average four-seamer over his first 30 starts: 2,358 rpm. That's a 399 rpm jump, a staggering amount, one that Bauer himself has said in the past, generally speaking, happens only when players use foreign substances to aid their spin. Through August, Bauer's four-seam spin rate was the 120th highest in baseball. In September, it was the second highest.

When asked by ESPN on Monday if he had used any foreign substance, Bauer declined to comment, but honestly, he didn't need to say anything.

...But come on. This is not entirely about some new generation coming into baseball and stealing the game from the lifers. Lest we forget: Arguably the single most famous play in baseball history is surrounded by accusations of cheating. It is fact that in 1951, the New York Giants used a scheme to relay signs from the right-field bullpen to home plate. Whether Bobby Thomson used it or didn't when he hit The Shot Heard 'Round the World is not entirely material; the Giants writ large used it, used it often, used it in a pennant-winning season and used it half a century before Moneyball existed and 66 years before the Astros banged on trash cans.

People don't cheat because of technology; they cheat because competition is fierce and advantages slim. Perhaps it's true that asking those very competitive people to buy into the greater-good theory is a road to perdition, but the idea that unplugging will solve all of baseball's ills does not square entirely, either.

 

[Vic Mackey 46927]

[Vic Mackey 46927]

[David Dennison 18646]

1 hour ago, Vic Mackey said:

No amount of contrition would make the pearl clutchers happy.

The Astros stole signs.

Big whoop.

[formermav43 4599]

How much remorse is enough? Who determines that? And how do we measure it?

[Iceman 2639]

2 hours ago, Vic Mackey said:

ARod absolutely recognizes being sorry...

Fuck him.  No amount of contrition is going to satisfy anyone, so just move the fuck on.

Leave the naysayers and haters to stroke their measuring sticks and to wallow in their pools of outrage.

They want Houston to ask, ‘How much?’  Go fuck yourselves.  You get none. 

[txhorns 2407]

Just now, Iceman said:

ARod absolutely recognizes being sorry...

Fuck him.  No amount of contrition is going to satisfy anyone, so just move the fuck on.

Leave the naysayers and haters to stroke their measuring sticks and to wallow in their pools of outrage.

They want Houston to ask, ‘How much?’  Go fuck yourselves.  You get none. 

I think most people would drop it if the title was vacated.

[Iceman 2639]

Just now, txhorns said:

I think most people would drop it if the title was vacated.

We don’t fucking care.  And no they wouldn’t.

[Saint Tacky 1609]

28 minutes ago, txhorns said:

I think most people would drop it if the title was vacated.

Nobody cares whether "they drop it."  It isn't happening and the moral compass will soon point somewhere else.  The fervor of these sanctimonious hypocrites will fade into the background when this moves from an "Astros scandal" to a Major League Baseball scandal.  Until then, f'em.

[formermav43 4599]

47 minutes ago, txhorns said:

I think most people would drop it if the title was vacated.

Sure thing. As soon as every prior title connected with cheating in baseball history is. ARod can set the example by relinquishing his ring and calling for it to be vacated.

Edited March 4, 2020 by formermav43

[David Dennison 18646]

56 minutes ago, txhorns said:

I think most people would drop it if the title was vacated.

That is hysterically funny.

[TexArcher 37506]

6 hours ago, txhorns said:

I think most people would drop it if the title was vacated.

Most people can go fuck themselves.

[WBT 20411]

I enjoyed this podcast on sign stealing through the years

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/effectively-wild-episode-1505-sign-stealing-is-a-flat-circle/

[Sbbruin 21704]

On 3/3/2020 at 2:24 PM, David Dennison said:

No amount of contrition would make the pearl clutchers happy.

The Astros stole signs.

Big whoop.

You keep feeling how you want.  The title is seriously tainted in the minds of everyone who isn't an Astros fan.  Enjoy.

[David Dennison 18646]

34 minutes ago, Sbbruin said:

You keep feeling how you want.  The title is seriously tainted in the minds of everyone who isn't an Astros fan.  Enjoy.

That just doesn't matter at all.

[NeverMarryAStripper 21781]

You keep feeling how you want.  The title is seriously tainted in the minds of everyone who isn't an Astros fan.  Enjoy.

[GHOSTUSER 361]

The cunt who started Astros Shame Tour on Twitter has been outed and Adam Clanton eviscerated that bitch. The most punchable looking face I have seen since Daniel Figurelli. I have mad respect for Clanton defending his hometown and our teams.

 

Edited March 5, 2020 by Iconoclast Texan

[GHOSTUSER 361]

1 hour ago, Sbbruin said:

You keep feeling how you want.  The title is seriously tainted in the minds of everyone who isn't an Astros fan.  Enjoy.

Doesn't change the fact that y'all lost, we have the trophy and the WS flag. You have 32 years and counting since the Dodgers last won the WS and pouting like a bitch. We have happy memories, WS champ swag, etc that will never go away.

[formermav43 4599]

3 hours ago, Sbbruin said:

You keep feeling how you want.  The title is seriously tainted in the minds of everyone who isn't an Astros fan.  Enjoy.

Who cares?

[TexArcher 37506]

3 hours ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

 

 

That guy looks like he's about to learn an important life lesson from Al Pacino or Joe Pesci in an early 90s movie.

[Beau Vine 53978]

3 hours ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

The cunt who started Astros Shame Tour on Twitter has been outed and Adam Clanton eviscerated that bitch. The most punchable looking face I have seen since Daniel Figurelli. I have mad respect for Clanton defending his hometown and our teams.

 

I hate to break it to you, but that guy outed himself at least a week ago.  He's a Cubs fan.  And you proclaiming "mad respect" for a sports talk radio guy only adds to your impressive portfolio of idiocy.  

[Beau Vine 53978]

4 hours ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

You have 32 years and counting since the Dodgers last won the WS and pouting like a bitch.

That this post is made by a guy with an extremely disgusting public personal history who goes crying to the moderators whenever anyone brings it up is really pretty ironic.

[henrygandorf 29174]

18 hours ago, Sbbruin said:

The title is seriously tainted in the minds of everyone who isn't an Astros fan.  Enjoy.

then there's no reason it needs to be vacated.

[Sbbruin 21704]

8 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

then there's no reason it needs to be vacated.

I never suggested it should be.  It just has a lot of stank on it.

 

And this thread is stupid.  Time for 2020.

Edited March 5, 2020 by Sbbruin

[Vic Mackey 46927]

[Beau Vine 53978]

Quote

The Los Angeles Angels have fired their longtime visiting clubhouse manager after an internal investigation confirmed suspicions that he was providing ball-doctoring substances to opposing pitchers, sources confirmed to ESPN on Thursday.

Major League Baseball initially informed the Angels about a week ago about allegations that Brian Harkins, who had been with the Angels for 30 years, was providing illegal sticky substances in the visiting clubhouse that aided pitchers' abilities to grip the baseball, sources with knowledge of the situation said. Harkins confirmed that he had been let go Thursday, but did not elaborate on the reason. The Angels did not comment, either, citing legal restrictions preventing them from discussing employee matters.

The Los Angeles Times first reported the news.

Angels visiting clubhouse manager Brian "Bubba" Harkins, right, has been fired by the team for providing ball-doctoring substances to opposing pitchers, sources confirmed to ESPN on Thursday. John Cordes/Icon Sportswire

Pitchers have been using foreign substances to doctor baseballs throughout the game's history, an illegal practice that was nonetheless accepted largely because of its widespread use. Cincinnati Reds pitcher Trevor Bauer recently told Real Sports that 70% of pitchers use some sort of substance -- be it pine tar or Firm Grip or a homemade concoction -- to enhance their grip, which could ultimately provide greater movement and velocity.

MLB intends to strongly enforce the rule that guards against the practice this season and has made teams aware during spring training. The Angels were not believed to have been pressured by MLB to fire Harkins, but the league's proactive approach in this matter could be an early sign of its intent to follow through. Harkins provided pitchers with a substance that consisted of a melted-down pine-tar solution and rosin, a source said. The Angels believe Harkins acted alone, and they did not fire any other clubhouse attendants for this matter.

Harkins, known throughout the game as "Bubba," joined the Angels as a bat boy in 1981 and returned to the organization as a clubhouse manager in 1986, taking over the visiting clubhouse four years later. He was named visiting clubhouse manager of the year by MLB equipment managers in 2005.

 

[ChickenSandwich 9798]

On 3/4/2020 at 4:56 PM, Sbbruin said:

You keep feeling how you want.  The title is seriously tainted in the minds of everyone who isn't an Astros fan.  Enjoy.

Lol. No it’s not. It is in the minds of fucking Dodger fans because their pathetic team of over paid chokers need an excuse for failure. 
 

This won’t even be discussed by next offseason, unless the MLB decides to release more info on the other cheating teams.  
 

Many a sanctimonious asshole said the steroid era was “tainted” yet nobody gives a shit nor claims an asterisk by all of those titles.  
 

Dodger fans feels vindicated because for about three months the public collective is giving them a pass for being fucking failures. You want that asterisk for the Astros so bad you can taste it. 
 Kiss the ring bitch. 

[Iceman 2639]

When did Trevor Bauer become the authority on anything than being a total cunt ripe for an asswhoopin?

[Sbbruin 21704]

On 2/21/2020 at 9:58 AM, Sbbruin said:

So is this another Astros fan circle jerk thread?

I think my question has clearly been answered.

[formermav43 4599]

1 hour ago, Sbbruin said:

I think my question has clearly been answered.

Has it? Seems to me it’s the thread for you to cry. 

[David Dennison 18646]

23 minutes ago, formermav43 said:

Has it? Seems to me it’s the thread for you to cry. 

Eventually people are going to realize that sign stealing was a silly thing to get all worked up about.

[Beau Vine 53978]

Canada:

Quote

It wasn’t until a 16-year-old on the baseball team asked, “Are we going to keep the name of the Astros this year?” that Daniel Caron considered how a big league scandal might affect the players on a little league team.

The team’s bright orange uniformed that once displayed the Aylmer’s Astros is no longer. For the upcoming season, the team name has been changed to the Mariners and the uniforms will be turquoise.

Earlier this year, the Houston Astros were fined $5 million for “stealing signs and cheating tactics” during the World Series in 2017 and 2018. Although the players were spared, the team’s manager and general manager were both fired.

According to the l’Association de Baseball Amateur d’Aylmer (ABAA), the decision to continue replicating this Major League Baseball team would not be not a good thing.

“Unfortunately this goes directly against the values we are trying to instil in our young players,” said Caron, the president of the ABAA, adding that seeing them in the orange uniforms is not a great idea. “That’s not the image we’re trying to give the kids.”

STORY CONTINUES BELOW

The two values that the ABAA cited are that all the players should obey the rules and not cheat to win the game.

“We do have an ethics code, we keep it fair and honest play, and that’s an important thing as coaches and that’s what we try to teach the kids,” said Caron. Additionally, sportsmanship in Aylmer’s games should be focused on a fair game when competing.

For several years, it’s been traditional for many of the Aylmer junior baseball teams to replicate MLB teams such as the Pittsburgh Pirates, Los Angeles Angels and Toronto Blue Jays.

A former coach of the Aylmer Blue Jays, Eric Migneault said believes changing the name of the Astros team was the right choice. “(They) didn’t want to promote a team that had cheated,” he said. “I totally agree with that. I think it’s a good stand.”

Migneault said he was not sure how the decision would affect the players.

“What I don’t know is how much the kids associate themselves with the major league teams,” said Migneault, who added his son was on the Aylmer Pirates team two years before landing a spot on the Blue Jays. He said his son didn’t feel the need to watch an actual Pittsburgh Pirates game and was still very much a fan of the Toronto Blue Jays.

Caron, however, said younger players on the Astros “idealize professional players and teams.” It wasn’t until a 16-year-old asked about keeping the Astros name that Caron did his research and figured this was not a good look for the team. During a board meeting last week, the vote was unanimous to change the jersey colour and the name.

 

Where's that Red Sox report??

[runthebone 7931]

My God, the Mariners have an even worse history of workplace sexual harassment and had a video guy shooting beaver.  And Robinson Cano used steroids there.

 

What a terrible message for the kids.

 

[Beau Vine 53978]

1 hour ago, runthebone said:

My God, the Mariners have an even worse history of workplace sexual harassment and had a video guy shooting beaver. 

Gonna need to see video of beaver before I decide how terrible it is for the kids.

[Hank Chinaski 6310]

1 hour ago, Beau Vine said:

Gonna need to see video of beaver before I decide how terrible it is for the kids.

[Hank Chinaski 6310]

From Doug Glanville, on PEDs and sign-stealing:

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/28850651/i-played-clean-steroid-era-peds-hurt-players-more-sign-stealing-does

Spoiler

WHEN I WAS traded to the Philadelphia Phillies in the winter of 1997, I was walking into a competition with Lenny Dykstra. He was at the end of his career, injuries were plaguing him and the cloud of performance-enhancing drugs swirled around him.

So right out of the gate, I had to beat out a player later named in the Mitchell report. He ultimately retired that season, and so began my starting years in Philadelphia. Within five seasons, I was aging and less productive and the next center field era was knocking on the door. By 2002, my days were numbered.

It was then when Marlon Byrd swept into Philly.

Although I started as a mentor to Marlon, we also built a friendship. I looked out for him like Shawon Dunston and Garry Maddox once did for me. He was the two-time minor league player of the year (in 2000 and 2001) in the Phillies' organization and would ultimately replace me as the team's center fielder. In 2002 (still before any significant PED testing program), when I was turning 32, I was losing my starting job, and by the next year, the writing was on the wall that if I stayed with the Phillies, I would be backing up Byrd. So I left for Texas as a free agent in 2003.

Bryant: Why the Astros' sign-stealing scandal could be worse for MLB than the steroid era
In 2004, I was back in Philly as the veteran wise man. Byrd struggled that season, but I was no longer considered a starter, and by 2005, I decided to retire. Byrd went on to have a 15-year career framed by many successes but also two suspensions for banned substances, both of which he denied were taken to enhance his performance on the field. I felt pride in his successes, but when his suspensions came down, I felt a sense of betrayal. The second of the suspensions -- a 162-game ban -- pushed Byrd to retire, which was a gut punch of two fists -- disappointment and responsibility as his mentor. Even though his first suspension did not occur until 2012 and I retired in 2005, I still reflexively asked myself the question: Did he replace me fair and square? I even questioned a common tradition in baseball -- assisting your replacement.

The inequities of PED use make it personal. With the proliferation of PEDs, there was always a chance you could be supporting a teammate who was using in order to replace you -- even if that was not his original intent. It can be right under your nose. As players started to fully understand the impact of PEDs on their careers, clean players became unsure who was friend or foe when it came to their job security. If you are clean, PEDs immediately put you on the downhill side of your career, and if you are already declining like I was in 2002, PEDs push you off a cliff.

Sign stealing does none of that.

THERE ARE A few steps you need to climb to make the major leagues and stay there.

First, you need to get an opportunity. Next, you must put up the numbers or show enough value to earn a consistent role. Then you must maintain that level -- and, hopefully, get paid accordingly. And then you must keep proving yourself, again and again.

If you can stay healthy, a long-term salary and continued production are the keys to your security and leverage. If you have either, you will get an opportunity. Somewhere. Some time.

It certainly helps to have both.

So what do PEDs do to damage a clean player's future in this equation?

A whole lot more than a team stealing your signs.

Remember how you get security in this game. Every year you survive in the major leagues, you will be compared -- directly, to the people inside your organization for a specific job, and indirectly, to others with your seniority and who play your position. This assigns you a value in the marketplace.

Any time a player comes to the negotiating table, he is compared to other players based on three primary data points: productivity, service time, position.

In the PED era, numbers got juiced, and when enough players juice up, it raises the bar at any given position. And I don't mean in a spiritual, greatness kind of way. It shifts the expectations of how that position should produce, artificially. It influences the money an organization will commit to you and it directly influences your opportunity.

In my case, if eight more center fielders juice up, I have a career advancement problem. I can lose eight job opportunities. All of a sudden, the average center fielder has higher power standards than he did before, and if I stay a singles hitter, my career changes for the worse. I could be relegated to a fourth outfielder (if I am even still on the team). It happens quickly enough without PEDs involved, let alone with them.

After looking back and seeing who I was compared to during this time, I realized I had been competing against demigods.

The Astros -- or any sign-stealing team -- benefit as a unit, but from the perspective of a center fielder who needs to look for work the next season, outside of the cheating club's center fielder hitting well because of the sign-stealing system, it does not elevate the entire position throughout the league. If the season ends and I am compared to one sign-stealing center fielder, it might hurt a little, but not like it would if half the league's center fielders were on PEDs.

And you can substitute "center fielder" there for any position player; the effect is the same.

You can factor in one team's transgressions more easily, too. I can tell my agent, "Well, it is unfair to compare me to an outfielder who knew what pitch was coming the entire season," and it would be a compelling argument. We can make the case to treat Houston outfielders as an aberration like we might for Colorado players and the high altitude. An outlier. One "clairvoyant" center fielder in Houston probably does not keep me out of the big leagues. Seventeen juiced outfielders does. And keep in mind, I also had to hit off of juiced pitchers. Sign stealing doesn't help pitchers -- they are the doormats in that scheme (and if anyone can claim to take sign stealing personally, it's them, though still on a much smaller scale).

If half of the league's offenses illegally steal signs for an extended period of years, the expectation for a center fielder could shift, but it takes an enduring league conspiracy to shift it significantly. A leaguewide epidemic would collectively inflate the offensive numbers, but that was not the case with the Astros. Even if we accept the likely case that it was more than just the Astros cheating, we still can't say it was prevalent throughout all of Major League Baseball. This, of course, depends on what MLB and the MLBPA do next to curb it.

Although I cannot claim to know the exact percentage of players who used PEDs during my playing days, there were more players juicing than a single team's worth, and it endured. If you just peel the numbers out of the Mitchell report (89 players listed), and consider this report only scratched the surface given the names implicated since, it is clear this was not just one rogue group of players at BALCO or Biogenesis.

IN 2003, I signed as a free agent in Texas, but two weeks into the season I tore a hamstring tendon running to first base. After I rehabbed my way back from surgery and after hours and days in the training room and on minor league assignments, I made it back in June. Then-Cardinals infielder Fernando Vina had the same injury a week before I came back from my six-week rehab. He called me to help him get back to health. He wasn't a teammate, he was not a friend, but he was a colleague in the fraternal order of MLB, so I helped.

So years later, when Vina admitted to his HGH use that landed him on the Mitchell report, I took it personally because he cited the injury we both had as to why he regrettably took HGH during his recovery. We were both in our early 30s at the time, and any player who has an injury that late in his career faces the possibility of being discarded like the weekly trash. Every player knows that fear. His desperation, he said, led him to make a poor choice. Yet I had openly helped him by sharing my rehab workouts ... underwater training, ultrasound therapy and so on. Seeing his name in the Mitchell report made me feel like I had aided and abetted the enemy.

I was traded to the Cubs in July 2003 and saw Vina when we played the Cardinals in September. He was still hobbling around from his injury. When the season ended, at age 34, he got a multiyear, multimillion-dollar contract with the Tigers. At age 32, I signed a one-year deal with the Phillies at a near 50% pay cut, in the final year of my career. Although we did not play the same position, we were both leadoff-type hitters with comparable careers, but the difference in opportunity at the end of our careers was stark.

Illegal sign stealing doesn't pit players against one another directly in this way. Yet sign stealing and PED use share the elements of greed and cowardice. With PEDs, it makes you paranoid that anyone could be the enemy of fair competition, even your own teammates. It isn't a level playing field -- you are playing on a completely different field altogether.

Competing in the big leagues, like any sport, is more than just beating the team in the other dugout. It is outlasting some people on your own team. You are fighting for a position and the guy in your way is wearing the same uniform, even as tradition insists that you help your fellow brother. Pass the game on. Sure, you want to win, sure, you will pull together when the bell rings, but when the other guy is on PEDs, your career gets shorter.

And where you are in your career will dictate the risks you are willing to take. It will also dictate the impact of not taking certain risks. When you are on the bubble and need an extra boost, when you are injured and mapping out a recovery, when you are in a contract year, when you are going to arbitration or into free agency, when you are aging out, all of these numbers swirl around your head and dangle the temptation to do something "extra" for just this year, knowing it might become a career habit. Stealing signs is not an individual choice like taking PEDs. Your team might get away with it, you might even win a World Series, but the leaguewide statistical inflation, which is how you are compared in the game, is relatively minimal when it is contained to one team.

Still, there is no doubt illegal sign stealing is a serious threat to the game's integrity, toxic to the value of a championship, and poisonous to the core value of fair play. We cannot underestimate the enduring and indelible damage caused by what we learned about the Astros' championship season in 2017 and how they abused technology. But when we say it is worse than PEDs, we still must be clear about which lens we are looking through. Through the eyes of a position player who chose to play clean during the steroid era, PEDs stalked you until aging prevented you from outrunning it anymore. Then, it was over.

It is important to weigh what any scandal does to people who are following the rules. Those clean players are not just playing a few games tilted against them by stolen signs -- they are competing for years while a legion of superhumans tilt the entire field against them.

In hindsight, it is disheartening to know my career was framed entirely inside the steroid era. That when I broke in, when I fought to keep my starting job and when I was holding on to my last baseball breath, PEDs put a finger on the scale. But I was far from alone. My story is the story of many players.

PEDs have the power to push you out of the game much more quickly and thoroughly than one team illegally stealing signs.

And maybe most cruel of all, sometimes that final push can come from the guy high-fiving you in the dugout, wearing the same uniform.

 

[markstanco 12501]

None of you astros fans need to never, ever talk about aggy cheating back in the 80s and 90s if you are sticking up for your team today. Choose one direction. Go full aggy and astros or the other way.

[Telegraph_it 3353]

1 hour ago, markstanco said:

None of you astros fans need to never, ever talk about aggy cheating back in the 80s and 90s if you are sticking up for your team today. Choose one direction. Go full aggy and astros or the other way.