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2020 Baseball Cheaters vs the World Thread of Hate

UTexasFight

By UTexasFight
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Iceman

Iceman 2639

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2 hours ago, markstanco said:

None of you astros fans need to never, ever talk about aggy cheating back in the 80s and 90s if you are sticking up for your team today. Choose one direction. Go full aggy and astros or the other way.

1. Fuck you and any authority you have granted yourself on the matter.

2. Fuck you.

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DCA_HORN
DCA_HORN

Jesus just stop. I've seen whitey Ford pitch in more old timers games than you've been there. The Yankees history didn't start in 1999 or whenever you hopped on board. Except for a few years the Yanke

UTexasFight
UTexasFight

Astros: 2017 World Champs Suck it. Come and take it.     (General thread title to allow for Red Sox/yankees/dodgers/ et al fans to bitch now and then defend later when their teams get popped too).    

formermav43
formermav43

It’s angry fathers of underage girls.

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markstanco

markstanco 12501

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51bf757d0b80587ce58313312177b085.jpg
You will take it to your grave that the astros WS is the same as the shit aggy puts on the side of their stadium.

We all know. Everybody knows. You know too. It ain't real, and mlb wont change it because we all know they dont want that black eye.

But enjoy your fake and cheated championship.
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WBT

WBT 20411

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22 hours ago, Vic Mackey said:

88261642_1424258614429156_53226338618997

Wonder if he thanked the guy for not blaming him for being unable to get his fastball over while walking Springer and falling behind 2-0 to Altuve, and following that up by hanging two straight sliders to Altuve?

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David Dennison

David Dennison 18646

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10 hours ago, markstanco said:

You will take it to your grave that the astros WS is the same as the shit aggy puts on the side of their stadium.

We all know. Everybody knows. You know too. It ain't real, and mlb wont change it because we all know they dont want that black eye.

But enjoy your fake and cheated championship.

It's real. That's why you're butthurt.

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Player

Player 4575

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You will take it to your grave that the astros WS is the same as the shit aggy puts on the side of their stadium.

We all know. Everybody knows. You know too. It ain't real, and mlb wont change it because we all know they dont want that black eye.

But enjoy your fake and cheated championship.


f294d63e2fd486a4072c8b6417919251.jpg
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Hank Chinaski

Hank Chinaski 6310

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14 hours ago, TonyTexas said:

Good. Let’s shift the narrative to Boston for a while. 

 

Sigh. I miss the good ol' days of the pearl-clutching crowd arguing with the overly-defensive Astros apologists. (I am a proud member of the latter.) 

I want my frustration and outrage to be directed at sportswriters and whiny ballplayers again. 

That was a nice luxury. 

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Beau Vine

Beau Vine 53978

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1 hour ago, Hank Chinaski said:

Sigh. I miss the good ol' days of the pearl-clutching crowd arguing with the overly-defensive Astros apologists. (I am a proud member of the latter.) 

I want my frustration and outrage to be directed at sportswriters and whiny ballplayers again. 

That was a nice luxury. 

Yeah, remember the good old days when we weren't worrying about coronavirus and Dennison was spamming the MLB thread with 15 one-sentence posts a day about how cheating was good for the game?  Ah, the salad days...

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Beau Vine

Beau Vine 53978

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Mike Bolsinger, the former big-league pitcher suing the Houston Astros and owner Jim Crane over the sign-stealing scandal, may now have to wait quite a while to seek redress in the California court he last month filed his case in.

That’s because the team’s lawyers on Wednesday notified the pitcher’s counsel that the club is filing a challenge to the impartiality of the judge overseeing the case. Under California law, parties can file one, uncontested peremptory challenge to remove a judge.

Normally, such a move typically entails a short process delay. But with the coronavirus all but shuttering Los Angeles Superior Court, the chances of the case getting quickly re-routed to a new judge are slim.  

“I have no clue why the Astros feel that way about the particular judge, but the irony is not lost on me that the team who broke every rule and cheated to win a World Series is now claiming a randomly assigned judge would not be fair to them,” Ben Meiselas, Bolsinger’s attorney at Geragos & Geragos, emailed, referring to the Astros claiming the 2017 championship after defeating the Los Angeles Dodgers in the World Series.

“Given the court closures arising from the Coronavirus pandemic, it is entirely unclear when the matter will be reassigned to a new judge which is usually a fairly quick process,” he texted in follow-up correspondence. “We are all in uncharted territory here, including the legal system, which has come to a grinding halt, and the practical implication of disqualifying this judge is going to be more delay. “

The judge who is overseeing the case is Malcolm Mackey of Los Angeles Superior Court.

The Astros’ Los Angeles-based counsel, Hueston Hennigan LLP, did not reply for comment. But in the planned filing, which they sent to Meiselas, the law firm wrote, “The judicial officer named above…is prejudiced against the party or his or her attorney…so that the declarant cannot, or believes that he or she cannot, have a fair and impartial trial or hearing before the judicial officer.”

The document did not provide evidence or the reason behind the claim of the 90-year-old Mackey’s prejudice (the California law does not require that). It’s unclear if the document has been formally filed with the court, which is shuttered for in-person civil matters through June 22. That may mean as a practical matter, there is no clerk to input the filing and then re-assign the case to a new judge.

The journeyman pitcher Bolsinger has not thrown in the majors since appearing for the Toronto Blue Jays in Houston on Aug. 4, 2017. According to Astros fan Tony Adams, who logged every audible trash can bang he could find and published the results at SignStealingScandal.com, that was the game in which the trash can was heard the most (the team’s sign-stealing involved trash can banging to notify the hitter what pitch was coming). The Blue Jays allowed 16 runs that day, four of which were charged to Bolsinger. He faced eight batters and retired only one, allowing four hits (including a home run) and three walks.

The Blue Jays demoted the pitcher that night, and he has not returned to MLB since. He blames the sign stealing for ruining his career. He is seeking unspecified damages and for the Astros to return the roughly $31 million in bonuses from their World Series title, and for the money to go to charities.

“Plaintiff would seek to direct that this category of restitutionary damages relating to postseason bonuses be used exclusively for charitable causes focused on bettering the lives of children with an emphasis on charities in Los Angeles as well as a fund for elderly retired professional baseball players,” the Bolsinger complaint said.

The Astros had earlier this month filed to delay their first scheduled response to Bolsinger until early April, but that now appears moot. 

California is unique in allowing a party to throw out a judge the way a juror might be tossed during jury selection without explanation.

“This is (a) unique rule in California, arising out of the potential danger that a judge may be prejudiced against a particular party for whatever reason,” William Fried, a partner at Herrick Feinstein LLP said. “That concern caused the legislature of California to allow each party a right to challenge a judge assigned to a case for any or no reason…a peremptory challenge similar to those granted to parties when selecting a jury.  

“We do not have any such right in New York and I am not aware of any other state that allows it, nor does such a challenge right exist in the federal courts.”

Other sign-stealing lawsuits against the Astros are proceeding, including two in New York federal court brought by daily fantasy sports contestants, and three in Texas state court filed by season ticket holders.

 

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Beau Vine

Beau Vine 53978

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Evan Gattis says David Dennison is full of shit:

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Evan Gattis, a retired catcher who was part of the now-infamous 2017 Houston Astros World Series team, has heard endless criticism from fans, opponents and media members about how that team cheated with its sign-stealing operation and how many people believe the Astros will never — and should never — live it down.

And he doesn’t disagree.

Unlike so many of his former Astros teammates whose attempts to explain or apologize have seemed forced or insincere, Gattis, who began his career with the Braves, spilled forth on The Athletic’s “755 Is Real” podcast this week with a brutally honest, profanity-laced mea culpa that sounded both full of contrition and awareness that apologizing may never be enough.

In a two-part podcast interview that began with Gattis talking at length about his fascinating, Kerouac-ian journey to the Braves after four years away from baseball, he provided candid insight about the scandal that has tarnished the Astros’ 2017 World Series title.

“I don’t think I can win the hearts over of anyone right now at all, or maybe ever,” said Gattis, 33, who had 96 homers and 293 RBIs in four years with Houston and retired after the 2018 season. “I don’t know how to feel yet. I don’t think anybody — we didn’t look at our moral compass and say, ‘Yeah, this is right.’ It was almost like paranoia warfare or something. But what we did was wrong. Like, don’t get it twisted. It was wrong for the nature of competition, not even just baseball. Yeah, that was wrong. I will say that.”

Gattis said he felt especially bad for opponents who might have been facing the Astros for the first time — such as young pitchers trying to stay in the majors or older ones trying to get there. And for fans who “felt duped.”

“For some players that we faced, that I’d never faced before or something like that, even selfishly we didn’t get to find out how good those people are — and they didn’t either,” Gattis said. “I think that was the one cool thing about playing in the big leagues, was just to find out how good you are, which I think is valuable. Everybody wants to be the best player in the fucking world, man, and we cheated that, for sure.

“We obviously cheated baseball and cheated fans. Fans felt duped. I feel bad for fans.”

Gattis said he wasn’t asking for or expecting any sympathy and that he was glad Major League Baseball punished the Astros, although he hated seeing his former manager, A.J. Hinch, and general manager Jeff Luhnow, fired by the team owner after being suspended for one year by MLB.

“If our punishment is being hated by everybody forever, then (so be it),” Gattis said. “And I don’t know what should have been done, but something had to be fucking done. And I do agree with that, big time. I do think it’s good for baseball if we clean it up. But I really don’t know to this day, and I’ve thought about it a shit ton, know what I mean? And I still don’t know how to feel.

“I’ll get ripped by somebody — ‘That’s not an apology’ — and if I do apologize, that’s still not going to be good enough. No shit, it’s not going to be good enough. I understand that it’s not fucking good enough to say, sorry. I get it.”

He said he harbored no ill will toward pitcher Mike Fiers, one of four members of the 2017 Astros who confirmed details of the sign-stealing operation to The Athletic’s Ken Rosenthal and Evan Drellich for their November 2019 story that led to MLB’s investigation. The other sources for the story asked for anonymity, but Fiers allowed his name to be used.

“With Fiers, he had something to say, dude,” Gattis said. “It probably started out with him saying exactly what he said — some of these guys coming into the league, they don’t fucking know yet that this shit goes on. And I respect that. And he had something to say. So he had to fucking say it. And then we had to get punished. Because if not, then what? It’ll get even more out of control.

“I mean, it’s a tough subject, which … yeah. I think a lot of people feel duped. And I understand that.”

The four, including Fiers, described a sign-stealing operation in which the Astros used video technology — a center-field camera and a TV monitor placed in a hallway adjacent to the Astros’ dugout — to steal the opposing team’s signs and a trash can next to the dugout that was banged upon to signal whether the next pitch would be a fastball or off-speed pitch.

“We did (use the system),” Gattis said. “That’s a fact. And that’s on the wall. Part of me is really glad that that’s out there as public knowledge, and it’s accurate. … I think that’s what MLB kind of wanted us to do with the investigation, too — or at least I hope so — is to find out what the fuck is going on.”

When MLB investigated, players were given immunity in exchange for providing details, which led to penalties levied against the team — a fine and loss of draft picks — and its manager and GM. Critics, including players from many other teams including the Braves, have said Houston players should also face penalties.

“I don’t know if immunity was right or not; I really don’t,” Gattis said. “Because I’m part of that shit. But I’m not in the same position as other people are now (who are still playing). And that’s the reason why I didn’t speak whenever the investigation was going on, because other people had jobs at stake, and I wasn’t going to be the guy that just went around and pointed a finger at myself and then pointed a finger at everybody else. I don’t think it was my place.”

Others who lost their jobs in the fallout from the MLB investigation included Alex Cora, the Boston manager who was bench coach of the 2017 Astros and was found to have been complicit in the sign-stealing operation, and Carlos Beltran, who was fired as the New York Mets’ manager shortly after getting the job in the fall.

Beltran was a 40-year-old, 20-year veteran on the 2017 Astros and was reportedly a ringleader in the sign-stealing operation. Some younger Astros implied he had too much gravitas for them to feel comfortable questioning it, even if they didn’t agree with using the sign-stealing system. But Gattis said no one made other Astros go along with the cheating scheme and that each of them was responsible for his own actions.

He did, however, acknowledge that the insular nature of a team and its clubhouse chemistry made it difficult to rock the boat, especially on a team that was doing so well.

“There’s this old experiment, the Milgram Experiment in social obedience,” Gattis said. “I’m not making a point that we were obedient and there was like a leader, like Beltran made us do everything or whatever. I’m not implying that at all. But the moral of the story is you can be put in a situation that is more powerful than yourself. And when that happens, and you’re in a group of people with already a pack mentality, it gets out of fucking control. And it got out of fucking control.”

 

Gattis confirmed a report that cited an anonymous source — said to be another member of the 2017 Astros — who characterized longtime former Braves catcher Brian McCann — Gattis’ teammate in Atlanta and again in Houston — as a player who was particularly opposed to the sign-stealing scheme and made his feelings known at least a couple of times during the season.

“I could tell it was eating him up,” Gattis said. “He didn’t like it one bit. … He’s played so long, and he just understands what it takes to get to the big leagues, and he’s got a lot of respect for ballplayers. You could just tell (he was opposed to the cheating).”

McCann, who returned to the Braves for his 15th season in 2019, has declined interview requests since retiring after a National League Division Series loss to St. Louis in October.

Fiers, who was non-tendered by the Astros after the 2017 postseason, said members of that team were willing to go “above and beyond” and break rules to win.

“Yeah, that’s very accurate,” said Gattis, who agreed with Fiers that the Astros got caught up in winning.

“Oh, fuck yeah, dude. Straight up,” Gattis said. “It was a powerful situation to be put in. Because I agree, nobody made us do shit — you know what I’m saying? Like, people saying, ‘This guy made us do this.’ … That’s not it. But you have to understand, the situation was powerful. Like, you work your whole life to try to hit a ball, and you mean, you can tell me what’s coming? What? Like, it’s a powerful thing. And there’s millions of dollars on the line and shit? And what’s bad is, that’s how people got hurt. That’s not right; that’s not playing the game right.

“I don’t know how much of it was paranoia and how much of it was the fact that other (teams) were doing stuff. I know other teams might feel like we didn’t get punished enough, and we might feel like they didn’t get punished enough, and who knows? Who knows the right way to handle it? Is there a concise couple-of-sentences answer to what should happen? I have no idea.”

Gattis concluded, “Yeah, it’s a little easier to see it being fucked up afterwards. Also, after the experience — and don’t get me wrong, I’m very happy we won the World Series; the parade was incredible; it was a great time for Houston, after (Hurricane) Harvey and all this shit, and seeing one million people in the streets … don’t get me wrong, all these experiences were excellent. I was floored. But once that all fades, now it’s kind of different. Now it’s kind of, ‘OK, that happened, and we cheated. So it’s not … I mean, you can’t feel that good about it.”

 

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Beau Vine

Beau Vine 53978

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There hasn’t been a lot of good news for MLB recently with the season suspended, but start spreading the news, it got some Friday morning when a New York federal judge thoroughly kicked out of court a case brought by daily fantasy sports (DFS) contestants against the league, the Houston Astros and the Boston Red Sox for the sign-stealing scandal.

While the judge did find the trio may have made some false statements about their commitment to stamping out the use of video electronics to steal signs, it did not rise to the legal standard to allow the case to move forward. He dismissed it with prejudice, meaning the lawsuit cannot be amended and refiled in his court.

“Plaintiffs point to one plausibly false statement by MLB Commissioner (Rob) Manfred,” Judge Jed Rakoff wrote. “After receiving reports that the Astros had sent an individual to take pictures of an opponent’s dugout for purposes of sign stealing, Manfred claimed to have performed a ‘thorough investigation’ that found that the ‘Astros employee was monitoring the field to ensure the opposing club was not violating any rules.’ The plaintiffs urge that this investigation could not have been thorough because the Astros were cleared of wrongdoing that it later became clear they were guilty of. While a bit of a stretch, nonetheless, assuming the truth of plaintiffs’ allegations and drawing all inferences in their favor, Manfred’s statement that there was a ‘thorough investigation’ could plausibly have been false.”

A federal judge citing that Manfred may have made a false statement is embarrassing for MLB, but ultimately that is the most this suit could inflict. The argument that DFS players were harmed because the stats they relied on were impure from the scandal always appeared tenuous: MLB and most of its clubs only have an advertising relationship with the DFS provider, DraftKings (the league sold its equity stake in the company last year).

“In short, the connection between the alleged harm plaintiffs suffered and defendants’ conduct is simply too attenuated to support any of plaintiffs’ claims for relief,” Rakoff wrote. “While the verbose, rhetorical, and largely conclusory complaint does manage to plausibly allege a few misrepresentations by defendants, these statements, which are unrelated to fantasy baseball, do not plausibly support plaintiffs’ claims.”

Rakoff almost appeared in a hurry to issue the opinion. On March 20 after the two sides argued their sides over the motion to dismiss filed by the Astros, Red Sox and MLB, Rakoff said he would have a decision by April 15. His decision came nearly two weeks ahead of time.

Irwin Kischner, executive chairman of Herrick Feinstein, said not only the DFS contestants, but also other sign-stealing litigants will have tough sledding (Astros season ticket holders are suing the club in Texas, and former MLB pitcher Mike Bolsinger is suing in California).

“I don’t think that this is going to find redress in the courts. I think that this is going to find, or found, redress in the commissioner’s office,” he said.  “Baseball is as you know, an SRO, a self-regulatory organization. They have their own ways to mete out these types of punishment judgments. Same thing, by the way with Deflategate, right? I mean, any of these scandals, why is that any different?”

Courts largely defer to SROs’ internal disciplinary systems. Rakoff alluded to the failure of lawsuits brought by ticket holders in other cases against teams for alleged improper actions.

“As defendants note, three federal circuits have declined to hold that sports organizations owe similar duties even to their direct customers, ticket holders … While the Second Circuit has not ruled on this issue, these cases demonstrate at a minimum that finding a duty based on the much more attenuated relationship between fantasy baseball players and the defendants in this case is not supportable.  

The DFS contestants tried to argue they were akin to investors defrauded by the parent company, but Rakoff was not having any of it. He did seem to relish his time with a baseball case (as judges often do with sports litigation). This is how he opened his 32-page decision.

“A sport that celebrates ‘stealing,’ even if only of a base, may not provide the perfect encouragement to scrupulous play. Nor can it be denied that an overweening desire to win may sometimes lead our heroes to employ forbidden substances on their (spit) balls, their (corked) bats, or even their (steroid-consuming) selves. But as Frank Sinatra famously said to Grace Kelly (in the 1956 movie musical High Society), ‘there are rules about such things.’”

He then footnotes the last quote with the following: “Frank was referring, of course, to a different kind of sport. The words were first uttered by Van Heflin to Katherine Hepburn.”

 

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UTHornFan014

UTHornFan014 710

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Sooo the Astros “cheated” more than the Red Sox? Is that what Major League Baseball is essentially saying with today’s punishment?
Yep - We (Astros) are tremendous cheaters. The best of all time. Every other team has called and said that they are impressed with how we implemented the system and they they wish they had done it first.
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ChickenSandwich

ChickenSandwich 9798

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6 minutes ago, youdunnf'dup said:

Sooo the Astros “cheated” more than the Red Sox? Is that what Major League Baseball is essentially saying with today’s punishment?

not sure how, the Red Sox were caught twice in the same season (apple watch + this).  Should be double the penalty for getting caught and then going further

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David Dennison

David Dennison 18646

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1 hour ago, youdunnf'dup said:

Sooo the Astros “cheated” more than the Red Sox? Is that what Major League Baseball is essentially saying with today’s punishment?

No, they are saying that the Red Sox are more valuable to the league, which is true.

It's a joke all the way around and none of it should be taken seriously.

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Beau Vine

Beau Vine 53978

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2 hours ago, youdunnf'dup said:

Sooo the Astros “cheated” more than the Red Sox? Is that what Major League Baseball is essentially saying with today’s punishment?

Quote

Manfred wrote in his report that Watkins, who denied the allegations, "on at least some occasions during the 2018 regular season, utilized the game feeds in the replay room, in violation of MLB regulations, to revise sign sequence information that he had permissibly provided to players prior to the game."

Manfred found Boston's conduct far less egregious than that of the Astros, noting, "Unlike the Houston Astros' 2017 conduct, in which players communicated to the batter from the dugout area in real time the precise type of pitch about to be thrown, Watkins' conduct, by its very nature, was far more limited in scope and impact.

"The information was only relevant when the Red Sox had a runner on second base (which was 19.7% of plate appearances league-wide in 2018), and Watkins communicated sign sequences in a manner that indicated that he had decoded them from the in-game feed in only a small percentage of those occurrences."

Well, that's exactly what the investigation showed.  

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