2020 Primary: We're messy and we love social media drama

SuingToGetAMessageBoard? · February 25, 2020

also, re: knowing how campaigns work reminds me of something i saw on the faceberks the other day. Parisa Fatehi -- student body president of UT when I was there -- posted one of those "this day in history" things. she introduced obama in '07 when he came to austin and showed pics. you're damn right they vetted her before they let her do that.

SuingToGetAMessageBoard? · February 25, 2020

1 minute ago, bad_teammate said:

And what is your actual, practical suggestion for how he should have handled that situation?

literally my first post on it: if Bernie would have taken a few steps forward and said "Folks, I'm going to get up here and speak in 10 minutes, but please give these people your time until then. We've got great things [something something upbeat]!"

SydneyCarton · February 25, 2020

That was an unwinnable situation for Sanders, or anyone not named Donald Trump. And have to think there's a reason those folks aren't pulling that stunt a Trump rally. They'd be thrown out and probably assaulted to the cheers of his base. I'm sorry that those folks felt that was their only recourse to have their voice heard, but man, crashing a party to call everyone there racists and white supremacists, particularly since its a crowd of people that are most likely to help your particular brand of disenfranchisement, well, sure seems like great way to have the opposite effect of what you're hoping for: normalizing Donald Trump's racism. God this country is fucked.

bad_teammate · February 25, 2020

Just now, SydneyCarton said:

That was an unwinnable situation for Sanders, or anyone not named Donald Trump. And have to think there's a reason those folks aren't pulling that stunt a Trump rally. They'd be thrown out and probably assaulted to the cheers of his base.

Bingo.

2 minutes ago, SuingToGetAMessageBoard? said:

if Bernie would have taken a few steps forward and said "Folks, I'm going to get up here and speak in 10 minutes, but please give these people your time until then. We've got great things [something something upbeat]!"

If he had done that then... what? The two women would've calmed down and happily stepped away in 10 minutes?

SuingToGetAMessageBoard? · February 25, 2020

Just now, bad_teammate said:

Bingo.

If he had done that then... what? The two women would've calmed down and happily stepped away in 10 minutes?

if you haven't put together an organization that can't keep that from happening, that's bad news. if you don't think that reflects on his leadership abilities and what people judge you on for being elected, that's bad news too. if you can't control a room, that's bad news. you need to be able to walk up there and get it under control. if you don't think people judge based on that, that's bad news too. if bernie's organization is as blind as you are to what people look for in a leader, that's real bad news.

bad_teammate · February 25, 2020

2 minutes ago, SuingToGetAMessageBoard? said:

if you haven't put together an organization that can't keep that from happening, that's bad news.

That was in August of 2015, not yesterday. lol

He didn't have an organization or campaign to speak of.

bad_teammate · February 26, 2020

lol owned

Johnson is the one who said Sanders's female surrogates were from "the island of misfit black girls" and has a said a bunch of other dumb crap.

Hank Kingsley · February 26, 2020

Good. He's terrible.

Hank Kingsley · February 26, 2020

Now that I think about it a little more, I actually think this was a bad move by MSNBC.

Jason Johnson sucks ass. I think his whole schtick is to agitate and seems to live by the "any publicity is good publicity" mantra with entertainment news television. He's been nasty and unfair when discussing Buttigieg for the entire primary, and my first reaction was "good riddance".

But what kind of precedent does this set? Johnson sucks, but so does Joy Reid, Zerlina Maxwell, Joe Scarborough and generally the entire "talent" pool on MSNBC. Go too far re: Bernie and you're benched? Why Bernie? Because he has the loudest and most influential group of supporters? Are people gonna have to watch what they say about Bernie in a Sanders administration?

Not sure why they just didn't make him give a formal apology like Chris Matthews and continue business as usual.

bad_teammate · February 26, 2020

Matthews is someone they pay $5M+/year. Johnson is someone they just had on as a guests for panels.

bad_teammate · February 27, 2020

@Hank Kingsley is crying about Twitter again. Apparently some mean jerks are responding negatively to one of Pete's campaign ads.

Because it's the fucking Internet.

Let's look at this endorsement from Pramila Jayapal the Bernie account just posted...

First two responses are people saying Bernie is a Communist.

Boo hoo hoo hoo

Hank Kingsley · February 27, 2020

Are you ok?

bad_teammate · February 27, 2020

9 minutes ago, Hank Kingsley said:

Are you ok?

No more insane than usual.

Definitely tired of this whining about toxic Bernie Bros after the Pete campaign's WV connection told Sanders to muzzle a black woman and Pete himself dismissed and maligned the "revolutionary politics of the 60s" of a guy who was literally arrested for protesting against black segregation.

One might think these things would give you guys a tiny bit of pause and cause even modest self-reflection, but... nope.

This campaign that's basically nothing but professional-class white people shaming the supposed toxicity of a campaign that spans the racial, ethnic, and economic classes constantly shitting its diapers because people say mean things online.

Do you think that the white professional class Karens endlessly calling managers is what inspires people like the WV guy to dehumanize the ACTUAL campaign full of minorities and vulnerable populations? Maybe?

Hank Kingsley · February 27, 2020

So, yeah. Not ok.

Hank Kingsley · February 27, 2020

henrygandorf · February 27, 2020

12 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

No more insane than usual.

Definitely tired of this whining about toxic Bernie Bros after the Pete campaign's WV connection told Sanders to muzzle a black woman and Pete himself dismissed and maligned the "revolutionary politics of the 60s" of a guy who was literally arrested for protesting against black segregation.

One might think these things would give you guys a tiny bit of pause and cause even modest self-reflection, but... nope.

This campaign that's basically nothing but professional-class white people shaming the supposed toxicity of a campaign that spans the racial, ethnic, and economic classes constantly shitting its diapers because people say mean things online.

Do you think that the white professional class Karens endlessly calling managers is what inspires people like the WV guy to dehumanize the ACTUAL campaign full of minorities and vulnerable populations? Maybe?

the whataboutism is strong with this one.

softlynow · February 27, 2020

On 2/25/2020 at 10:31 AM, Biff Tannen said:

I don't understand this timeline.

fifm

bad_teammate · February 27, 2020

the whataboutism is strong with this one.

12 months of you guys crying about Bernie Bros and you still can't deal honestly with the toxicity coming from your all-white campaign.

henrygandorf · February 27, 2020

3 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

12 months of you guys crying about Bernie Bros and you still can't deal honestly with the toxicity coming from your all-white campaign.

12 months of: "talk shit, get hit. we will come at you on twitter, go through your timeline, and drag you and ruin your day until your children cry or laugh at you."

now: "but everyone else is mean online too including people supporting a candidate not doing as well as bernie!"

but sure, we're the ones crying.

bad_teammate · February 27, 2020

12 months of: "talk shit, get hit. we will come at you on twitter, go through your timeline, and drag you and ruin your day until your children cry or laugh at you."
now: "but everyone else is mean online too including people supporting a candidate not doing as well as bernie!"
but sure, we're the ones crying.

To be fair nothing has came out of the Bernie campaign like the horrible racism that the Pete WV guy invoked against Nina Turner.

Can't really hit an all-white campaign the way you can a campaign of POC. No dogwhistling the master's lash, as it were.

Calling Pete a rat isn't really the same thing.

You should listen to the recent episode of Intercepted where Briahna Joy Gray and Nina Turner are asked about the racist and sexist attacks they face.

Go to about 19 minutes in to hear Turner on what it's like to be a an accomplished black woman called on to be muzzled.

Then, maybe, do what Pete says and reflect on what it is about his campaign that inspires that kind of hate.

henrygandorf · February 27, 2020

6 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

To be fair nothing has came out of the Bernie campaign like the horrible racism that the Pete WV guy invoked against Nina Turner.

Can't really hit an all-white campaign the way you can a campaign of POC. No dogwhistling the master's lash, as it were.

Calling Pete a rat isn't really the same thing.

You should listen to the recent episode of Intercepted where Briahna Joy Gray and Nina Turner are asked about the racist and sexist attacks they face.

Go to about 19 minutes in to hear Turner on what it's like to be a an accomplished black woman called on to be muzzled.

Then, maybe, do what Pete says and reflect on what it is about his campaign that inspires that kind of hate.

you make a great point. if someone "supporting" one candidate says something awful, you can pretty much ignore/condone everything everyone else says.

either that, or blame bots.

bad_teammate · February 27, 2020

5 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

if someone "supporting" one candidate says something awful, you can pretty much ignore/condone everything everyone else says.

Not sure what this means.

On stage in the Nevada debate Pete made a very serious face and sounded very concerned about what it was about the Sanders campaign that inspired such divisive behavior. Then, about a week later, a Pete supporter so prominent that his Tweets merited both public and private responses from the campaign itself, said something disgustingly racist and sexist. By far the worst and nastiest attack from one campaign-connected person to another.

*adopts very sincere and worried Obama tone*

So I think it's a pretty simple question: What is it about the Pete Buttigieg campaign that inspires toxic racism and sexism?

What is it within that campaign that not only inspires that kind of hateful and bigoted rhetoric, but then leads those who espouse to lie about being hacked rather than face it honestly and forthrightly?

*makes very concerned face*

bad_teammate · February 27, 2020

If we want to talk about that Nevada person who was using the bullhorn outside the party chair's home and what might inspire them to behave that way, there's something pretty obvious, which is the Nevada Democratic Party's blatantly anti-democratic behavior in 2016.

If you're interested in the background, watch this short video to see what happened.

You can hear the "no" dramatically outnumbered the "aye" and you can see how quickly they wanted to adjourn the proceedings to ensure that Hillary won and that the 64 Bernie delegates were disenfranchised. There were also documented cases of caucus workers from the Nevada Democratic Party intimidating Bernie volunteers and staffers who were participating while allowing open electioneering from Clinton volunteers and staffers.

We even saw this again in 2020 when Julian Castro strolled into a caucus to advocate for Warren when that is actually illegal.

So it's certainly rude behavior to bullhorn outside of a guy's house, but it's not random behavior...like the toxic racism towards the Sanders campaign out of the Buttigieg campaign.

henrygandorf · February 27, 2020

9 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Not sure what this means.

On stage in the Nevada debate Pete made a very serious face and sounded very concerned about what it was about the Sanders campaign that inspired such divisive behavior. Then, about a week later, a Pete supporter so prominent that his Tweets merited both public and private responses from the campaign itself, said something disgustingly racist and sexist. By far the worst and nastiest attack from one campaign-connected person to another.

*adopts very sincere and worried Obama tone*

So I think it's a pretty simple question: What is it about the Pete Buttigieg campaign that inspires toxic racism and sexism?

What is it within that campaign that not only inspires that kind of hateful and bigoted rhetoric, but then leads those who espouse to lie about being hacked rather than face it honestly and forthrightly?

*makes very concerned face*

could it be that this one guy is just a fucking asshole piece of shit? you're acting like there's some pattern, yet keep referring back to one guy and his nonsense. does this one guy even show any type of sustained/repeated pattern of bullshit?

also big lullllllz at your logic that nothing this bad has come from the bernie side, but that's explained by the fact that it's much harder to hit an all-white campaign.

either try to make your point, or shit on pete's campaign. you're not having any luck with the multitasking tonight.

bad_teammate · February 27, 2020

2 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

could it be that this one guy is just a fucking asshole piece of shit?

Is that the standard Pete set?

Let me quote this inspirational, transformative generational talent:

---------------------------
BUTTIGIEG: But leadership is about what you draw out of people. It's what -- it's about how you inspire people to act.

And right now, we're in this toxic political environment. Leadership isn't just about policy. I think at least in broad terms, we're largely pulling in the same direction on policy, but leadership is also about how you motivate people to treat other people.

I think you have to accept some responsibility and ask yourself what it is about your campaign in particular that seems to be motivating this behavior more than others, because in order to turn the page on the Trump era, we're going to need a president, not just a candidate who can win, but a president who can move us forward.
---------------------------

Do you think Pete was wrong when he said this? Do you think Bernie's take is actually the correct one?

Quote

also big lullllllz at your logic that nothing this bad has come from the bernie side

Name something even close to that from someone actually connected to Bernie's campaign and not just a random, unconnected supporter. I'm happy to be wrong. Show me.

henrygandorf · February 27, 2020

5 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Name something even close to that from someone actually connected to Bernie's campaign and not just a random, unconnected supporter. I'm happy to be wrong. Show me.

are you really gonna cut my sentence in half to try to create a new conversation point?

bad_teammate · February 27, 2020

1 minute ago, henrygandorf said:

are you really gonna cut my sentence in half to try to create a new conversation point?

Well your sentence contradicted itself. The first half argues that as bad or worse HAS come from Bernie's campaign and the second half seems to concede that of course nothing as bad has come from Bernie's campaign.

Which argument do you want to make?
A - As bad or worse has come from Bernie's campaign.
B - Nothing as bad has come from Bernie's campaign because Pete's campaign is all-white and you can't hurt them the same way.

Also, I'm going to go ahead and repost this since you ignored it...

10 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Is that the standard Pete set?

Let me quote this inspirational, transformative generational talent:

---------------------------
BUTTIGIEG: But leadership is about what you draw out of people. It's what -- it's about how you inspire people to act.

And right now, we're in this toxic political environment. Leadership isn't just about policy. I think at least in broad terms, we're largely pulling in the same direction on policy, but leadership is also about how you motivate people to treat other people.

I think you have to accept some responsibility and ask yourself what it is about your campaign in particular that seems to be motivating this behavior more than others, because in order to turn the page on the Trump era, we're going to need a president, not just a candidate who can win, but a president who can move us forward.
---------------------------

Do you think Pete was wrong when he said this? Do you think Bernie's take is actually the correct one?

henrygandorf · February 27, 2020

3 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Well your sentence contradicted itself. The first half argues that as bad or worse HAS come from Bernie's campaign and the second half seems to concede that of course nothing as bad has come from Bernie's campaign.

Which argument do you want to make?
A - As bad or worse has come from Bernie's campaign.
B - Nothing as bad has come from Bernie's campaign because Pete's campaign is all-white and you can't hurt them the same way.

it's not my argument, it's yours.

53 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

To be fair nothing has came out of the Bernie campaign like the horrible racism that the Pete WV guy invoked against Nina Turner.

Can't really hit an all-white campaign the way you can a campaign of POC.

you said this, and i thought it was funny. still is.

bad_teammate · February 27, 2020

We all like to laugh.

RPM · February 27, 2020

Seth Meyers summed up the debate pretty well. "Jesus! Does the C in CBS stand for clusterfuck?"

bad_teammate · February 27, 2020

Chris Hayes with the half court monster dunk.

Hank Kingsley · February 27, 2020

bad_teammate · February 27, 2020

Got any commentary?

406W30th · February 27, 2020

16 hours ago, Hank Kingsley said:

Now that I think about it a little more, I actually think this was a bad move by MSNBC.

Jason Johnson sucks ass. I think his whole schtick is to agitate and seems to live by the "any publicity is good publicity" mantra with entertainment news television. He's been nasty and unfair when discussing Buttigieg for the entire primary, and my first reaction was "good riddance".

But what kind of precedent does this set? Johnson sucks, but so does Joy Reid, Zerlina Maxwell, Joe Scarborough and generally the entire "talent" pool on MSNBC. Go too far re: Bernie and you're benched? Why Bernie? Because he has the loudest and most influential group of supporters? Are people gonna have to watch what they say about Bernie in a Sanders administration?

Not sure why they just didn't make him give a formal apology like Chris Matthews and continue business as usual.

I think it was less the attack on Bernie and more the attack on the women of color, who hold some of the highest positions in Bernie's campaign. That was a rather shocking display of racism and misogyny.

bad_teammate · February 27, 2020

Hank let me down by not providing commentary on that video of local activists confronting a primary candidate with demands to support legislation and debate her primary opponent.

This is an exaggerated example because the target of protest in Fey's case is Very Very Bad and the target of protest in this case is Probably Not Actually Bad (I don't know the local politics of the place).

But the thirst for decorum and niceness and calm within the center of the party is actually something to be terrified of and ashamed of. It's like, to them, the endpoint of this election is to get someone inaugurated, celebrate, eat brunch, drink some red wine, then be sad when a Republican Senate squashes all hopes.

If we want actual change we need to be active in that change. That is going to involve active, in-the-streets confrontation of those who seek power and those who hold power.

Is it ugly? Often, yes.

Are the people who do it often gross and poor and/or off and intense? Often, yes.
After all, it's the vulnerable and at-risk that have the most to lose while the comfortable among us don't actually care all that much because we're comfortable and safe.

I didn't see any violence or threats. I saw a nonviolent, peaceful protest over an issue that has tens of thousands of lives hanging in the balance.

It wasn't nice to watch. It didn't make me feel good. I would much rather have brunch than watch that.

But if your reaction to peaceful, non-violent confrontation of those with power or seeking power is shock and disgust, you're not ready to be a very good ally this fall and beyond.

Hank Kingsley · February 27, 2020

I'm not shocked or disgusted. I think it will hurt Bernie's movement though.

Bernie's ideas are good and authentic, and I think many Democrats have moved left in a very short amount of time. But instead of embracing people and respectfully trying to guide them even further left, Democrats are attacked and shamed. It's human nature for people to say "fuck you" back to people who are screaming "fuck you".

I am a bit worried that the political "revolution" will spin out of control if/when it's officially Bernie vs. Trump in the general. What are the confrontations gonna be like when hardcore Bernie supporters - after 4-5 years of focusing their hatred specifically at Democrats - finally confront Trump/GOP/MAGA?

Call it concern trolling if you like, but I'm being sincere. I don't think everything should be lovey-dovey. But there are lines that will be crossed that will put off a lot of people.

Rougarou · February 27, 2020

B_t sounds like a “Yea Jussie Smollet lied and made it up, BUT he’s bringing up a social point and this racism does exist and could possibly happen so it’s almost like woke performance art activism. @ me or Fight me, CHuDS” kind of guy, these days.

Edited February 27, 2020 by Rougarou

bad_teammate · February 27, 2020

There's no "but" in my defense of those people in the video. They were engaged in non-violent protest and confrontation of a politician and I don't have a problem with people doing that. It's a local politician confronted by local activists... I don't care. I don't think it's bad.

If they had hit her or her car then that would be bad. They didn't. They just shouted at her and followed her, which is kind of what you do when you're protesting/pressuring a politician.

As to Hank's point of alienating people, it certainly will. There are a ton of safe and comfortable liberals who are horrified by any kind of on-the-streets action or direct action and a people-powered political revolution will deactivate many of those safe liberals and it will even push many others towards more reactionary politics. I agree, that will happen.

In fact, there will almost certainly be a PUMA movement of angry centrists should Bernie get the nomination. We won't even have to wait for revolutionary President Sanders raising hell in Joe Manchin's backyard to pressure him to vote properly.

The question then, is this: So what?

Hank Kingsley · February 27, 2020

45 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

The question then, is this: So what?

The risk is Bernie turning off a bunch of people and losing to Trump in the general. And if that happens, it’s possible that Bernie’s movement is fucked moving forward.

I think (hope) Bernie will adapt and be warmer to Democrats if he’s the nominee. Hopefully his supporters will as well.

washparkhorn · February 27, 2020

4 hours ago, 406W30th said:

I think it was less the attack on Bernie and more the attack on the women of color, who hold some of the highest positions in Bernie's campaign. That was a rather shocking display of racism and misogyny.

Bingo.

GSU&UT · February 27, 2020

I'm prepared for Biden to win by at least 10 points Saturday, but at least two posters on another board I post on that live in South Carolina say they've talked to multiple dipshit Trumpers who are going to vote Saturday for Bernie to "own the libs."

Hank Kingsley · February 27, 2020

#solidarity

David Dennison · February 27, 2020

10 minutes ago, GSU&UT said:

I'm prepared for Biden to win by at least 10 points Saturday, but at least two posters on another board I post on that live in South Carolina say they've talked to multiple dipshit Trumpers who are going to vote Saturday for Bernie to "own the libs."

He's going to win bigly on Saturday.

If he can pick up Texas, North Carolina, and Alabama on Tuesday while keeping it close in the other states, it's a horse race and the media will portray him as sharing front runner status with Bernie Sanders.

Next stop, brokered convention and the shit storm that follows.

GSU&UT · February 27, 2020

I'd be shocked if Biden picks up Texas, he has basically not campaigned in any Super Tuesday state and they've been voting early for at least the last week I think. He is banking on winning big in SC and that keeping him in. North Carolina will be close.

henrygandorf · February 27, 2020

i saw some chart on mute on cnn a couple days ago showing the top candidates and money spent in super tues states. most in the millions, biden was at the end with like $115k. it was embarrassing. i’m sure someone can find it.

washparkhorn · February 27, 2020

9 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

i saw some chart on mute on cnn a couple days ago showing the top candidates and money spent in super tues states. most in the millions, biden was at the end with like $115k. it was embarrassing. i’m sure someone can find it.

washparkhorn · February 27, 2020

Pasken · February 27, 2020

washparkhorn · February 27, 2020

Good that there are cameras in plain sight. We should be able to identify the perps.

bad_teammate · February 27, 2020

Everyone who does that should be found and charged.

Also, hi-five.

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2020 Primary: We're messy and we love social media drama

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