The New Car Fanatic Thread

[CHIEF 5052]

I've spent $660 in repairs on that 4Runner in 16 years. Reliability for the wife and comfort were the two main concerns. Looked at a a year newer 550i with the about the same amount of miles for less money, but at 100k plus miles, in a few years, it wouldn't bring five figures. I assume there is a reason for that.The depreciation is staggering.

CHIEF

Edited October 8, 2019 by CHIEF

[Anton Chigurh 3318]

Believe it or not, some people want reliable cars.

[Chewbacca 7691]

3 hours ago, Okie State said:

Believe it or not, some people want reliable cars.

I've got no issue with them selling reliable cars.  I like it.  What I don't like is the unusually long cycle times between models that they've gone to.  The 4Runner was last redesigned in 2009.  The Sequoia was in 2008.  The LandCruiser was 2008.  These cars are just old and tired, especially when it comes to technology.  And as someone who is in the market for a full size, 3 row SUV, the Sequoia won't even get a test drive.  We drove one 3 years ago when we got the wife's QX80.  The ride was terrible compared to its competition back then and the newer cars like the MB GLS have advanced by leaps and bounds since then.

 

I know people are still buying 4Runners (not sure on the Sequoia and the LC has always been a niche vehicle) but I'm not sure why.

[Gravy Train 974]

Fuck appliance cars.

[ChickenSandwich 9797]

1 hour ago, Chewbacca said:

I've got no issue with them selling reliable cars.  I like it.  What I don't like is the unusually long cycle times between models that they've gone to.  The 4Runner was last redesigned in 2009.  The Sequoia was in 2008.  The LandCruiser was 2008.  These cars are just old and tired, especially when it comes to technology.  And as someone who is in the market for a full size, 3 row SUV, the Sequoia won't even get a test drive.  We drove one 3 years ago when we got the wife's QX80.  The ride was terrible compared to its competition back then and the newer cars like the MB GLS have advanced by leaps and bounds since then.

 

I know people are still buying 4Runners (not sure on the Sequoia and the LC has always been a niche vehicle) but I'm not sure why.

The idea that it can make it to 300k miles, tow 5k, get dirty and keep going for minimal cost is very appealing for a do everything (except speed) hauler.  The more “fun to drive” ones that can actually do the same (almost none off road) will all be looking at crazy repair bills at 100k miles. 
 

set it and forget it. Get a fun second car instead with the money you save once it’s paid for. 
 

*resale value doesn’t suck either

And $53k, that’s a steal. Have you seen what suckers are paying for F150s and Silverado's?

*although those probably get better than 15mpg and can out accelerate a school bus. 

Edited October 9, 2019 by ChickenSandwich

[Chewbacca 7691]

3 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

The idea that it can make it to 300k miles, tow 5k, get dirty and keep going for minimal cost is very appealing for a do everything (except speed) hauler.  The more “fun to drive” ones that can actually do the same (almost none off road) will all be looking at crazy repair bills at 100k miles. 
 

set it and forget it. Get a fun second car instead with the money you save once it’s paid for. 
 

*resale value doesn’t suck either

And $53k, that’s a steal. Have you seen what suckers are paying for F150s and Silverado's?

I get all that.  It's why I just bought a 2002 LandCruiser in June.  But when you're comparing new to new, Toyota is way behind its peers.  And a 4Runner is not a peer for an F150 or Silverado except for a few people.

The driving experience in new Toyotas is severely lacking right now.  They can make reliable cars that are also fun to drive with current technology.  They just don't want to for some reason.

[Okie State 3765]

1 hour ago, Chewbacca said:

I've got no issue with them selling reliable cars.  I like it.  What I don't like is the unusually long cycle times between models that they've gone to.  The 4Runner was last redesigned in 2009.  The Sequoia was in 2008.  The LandCruiser was 2008.  These cars are just old and tired, especially when it comes to technology.  And as someone who is in the market for a full size, 3 row SUV, the Sequoia won't even get a test drive.  We drove one 3 years ago when we got the wife's QX80.  The ride was terrible compared to its competition back then and the newer cars like the MB GLS have advanced by leaps and bounds since then.

 

I know people are still buying 4Runners (not sure on the Sequoia and the LC has always been a niche vehicle) but I'm not sure why.

I agree. The Lexus GX is a joke too. It has basically been the same for as long as I can remember. They have no realistic midsize three row option.

Also the fact that you can't get a 4Runner with factory HID or LED headlights is absurd.

Edited October 9, 2019 by Okie State

[Okie State 3765]

1 hour ago, Gravy Train said:

 

 

Fuck appliance cars.

 

 

Yes, agreed in general although I do like buying my wife a car that just works. You do understand that car enthusiasts are in the minority though, right? A whole lotta people out there give no shits about cars outside of it having Apple CarPlay and getting them from point A to point B. This is Toyota's target market with nearly every vehicle they make.

[Chewbacca 7691]

8 minutes ago, Okie State said:

Also the fact that you can't get a 4Runner with factory HID or LED headlights is absurd.

Maybe it has changed with the 2019 model year, but as of 2018 you can't even get a 4Runner with push button start.  I'm not sure on the Sequoia but it didn't have it in 2017.  That's just ridiculous.  My 2011 G37 had that.

[TwiceHorn 31166]

Land Rover had a similar philosophy of "tried and true" (but British, unfortunately) before doubling down and splitting eights on the Range Rover.  They really got into reliability trouble then, trying to build a modern luxury vehicle.

I also read somewhere that Land Rover stuck with ancient everything because they felt they couldn't obsolete all the parts cached in African and Asian backwaters.

You kind of wonder if Toyota is losing or has lost its  ability to innovate during this recent period of stagnation.  That they abdicated the Supra to krauts gives this theory some legs.

[TwiceHorn 31166]

12 minutes ago, Okie State said:

Yes, agreed in general although I do like buying my wife a car that just works. You do understand that car enthusiasts are in the minority though, right? A whole lotta people out there give no shits about cars outside of it having Apple CarPlay and getting them from point A to point B. This is Toyota's target market with nearly every vehicle they make.

Valid observation, but equally true of Honda, and Honda isn't nearly as stagnant as Toyota.  At least they do weird Honda shit.

[Chewbacca 7691]

2 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Land Rover had a similar philosophy of "tried and true" (but British, unfortunately) before doubling down and splitting eights on the Range Rover.  They really got into reliability trouble then, trying to build a modern luxury vehicle.

I also read somewhere that Land Rover stuck with ancient everything because they felt they couldn't obsolete all the parts cached in African and Asian backwaters.

You kind of wonder if Toyota is losing or has lost its  ability to innovate during this recent period of stagnation.  That they abdicated the Supra to krauts gives this theory some legs.

Land Rovers have always been unreliable as shit.  You know why the British drink warm beer?  Because Lucas also makes refrigerators.

[TwiceHorn 31166]

Just now, Chewbacca said:

Land Rovers have always been unreliable as shit.  You know why the British drink warm beer?  Because Lucas also makes refrigerators.

True, hence the parenthetical.  But it got much much worse as they modernized the Range Rover.

[Okie State 3765]

21 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

Maybe it has changed with the 2019 model year, but as of 2018 you can't even get a 4Runner with push button start.  I'm not sure on the Sequoia but it didn't have it in 2017.  That's just ridiculous.  My 2011 G37 had that.

My 2005 G35 had keyless start and HID headlights.

[Anton Chigurh 3318]

Speaking of Infiniti, what happened to them? Read something on Jalopnik that reminded me that they still exist but are kind of dwindling.

Nothing in their lineup is all that new, with the exception of that variable compression engine. They recently pulled out of Europe. So it’s kind of like the Toyota approach without the Toyota success. I know the market is shifting to crossovers, and other smaller brands are hurting too, but damn.


https://jalopnik.com/infiniti-is-getting-absolutely-creamed-1838822316

The mid to late 2000s was their peak, and they’ve just gone downhill ever since. Johan de Nysschen seems to destroy luxury brands.

[ChickenSandwich 9797]

Maybe I’m wrong, but the 2018 4Runner limited had a push button start. The Pro, not so much

[Okie State 3765]

2 minutes ago, Anton Chigurh said:

Speaking of Infiniti, what happened to them? Read something on Jalopnik that reminded me that they still exist but are kind of dwindling.

Nothing in their lineup is all that new, with the exception of that variable compression engine. They recently pulled out of Europe. So it’s kind of like the Toyota approach without the Toyota success. I know the market is shifting to crossovers, and other smaller brands are hurting too, but damn.


https://jalopnik.com/infiniti-is-getting-absolutely-creamed-1838822316

The mid to late 2000s was their peak, and they’ve just gone downhill ever since. Johan de Nysschen seems to destroy luxury brands.

That stupid fucking CEO came in and killed their identity. The first gen G sedan was very fun to drive. Their current line up blows.

[fattyflattie 4636]

1 hour ago, Chewbacca said:

Maybe it has changed with the 2019 model year, but as of 2018 you can't even get a 4Runner with push button start.

I don’t gaf about a Toyota, but why is this a negative? 

[Chewbacca 7691]

I don’t gaf about a Toyota, but why is this a negative? 

Maybe I've grown soft in my old age, but not having to get my keys out when I've got shit in my hands is very convenient.

[Anton Chigurh 3318]

I think it’s just something you get used to. I had push button, then didn’t. I don’t necessarily miss it.

[Anton Chigurh 3318]

Double post.

[fattyflattie 4636]

Cool. I’ve never had a vehicle with it. I don’t like the feeling of the newer vehicles that you don’t have to hold the key until it starts. My buddies ecoboost is like that.  I’m used to holding a key and once it starts, letting it go.  But all my rides are 10 yo.  I was genuinely curious as I don’t *think I’d like it. 

Edited October 9, 2019 by fattyflattie

[Sam Lin 3540]

9 hours ago, Gravy Train said:

I just don't see why they should be awarded with sales and a decades-old reputation of reliability when most of their lineup is produced with yesteryear's tech.  They're price-competitive and reliable for a reason-- they've had the better half of a decade to perfect a product. 

Your second sentence answers your first. I'm a car guy. I've beaten the shit out of Corollas and Camry rentals in a ton of countries (and seen entire fleets of taxi Corollas surviving in countries with minimal "dealer-level" maintenance ability). When I want something reliable, I buy a Toyota. When friends ask me for something reliable, I tell them Toyota. At this point I don't think any other automaker has the same ability to engineer reliability, because it simply isn't an ingrained part of the culture at other automakers.

One example: BMW is notorious for this - no cam bearings in the head, require special oil, rod bearings needing replacement before 100k mi on multiple generations of engine? Suggest any of that at Toyota and you'd be laughed at at best, off the team at worst. They're simply shitty engineering decisions. The Supra partnership with BMW is a huge turnoff to me, and guarantees the new Supra will never have the durability to build the legend of the MkIV. N54 turbo/wastegate issues anyone? You cannot push the bleeding edge and have the reliability.

[Gravy Train 974]

Nobody pushed the bleeding edge of the 2JZ’s stock sequential units because they didn’t flow for shit. The N54 is forged up and arguably offers the same potential as the 2JZ with supporting turbo and fuel mods.

Reliability is an oversold claim these days. Toyota’s shit is boring and it’s possible to build a reliable car with engineering dollars... look at Porsche.

Want an appliance with a low TCO? Buy a Tesla. Too expensive? Wait for the VW ID.3.

[Sam Lin 3540]

1 hour ago, Gravy Train said:

Reliability is an oversold claim these days. Toyota’s shit is boring and it’s possible to build a reliable car with engineering dollars... look at Porsche.

Lulz. That is exactly why I recommend Toyota. You have to go to Porsche to get similar reliability, and what kind of price point comparison is that??

[52-80 19062]

7 hours ago, Okie State said:

I agree. The Lexus GX is a joke too. It has basically been the same for as long as I can remember. They have no realistic midsize three row option.

Also the fact that you can't get a 4Runner with factory HID or LED headlights is absurd.

Or basic any modern safety features or tech...anything that came out the last 10 years.  The interior looks horrendous.

But they dont need to improve it, because the damn thing's grown in sales 25% YoY for 10 years on a the same base.  Its got a ridiculously good following.

7 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

That they abdicated the Supra to krauts gives this theory some legs.

Just way to costly to have developed it themselves.  There's nothing in the car formula it that they could have reused from existing parts - new chassis, new motor, new transmission, etc.  (Unless they wanted a v8 coupe...).  Same reason they split the other sports car project with Subaru. 

[Bert Orange 1115]

Porsche doesn’t have a push button start*

 

*technically

[Loco 3752]

3 hours ago, 52-80 said:

Or basic any modern safety features or tech...anything that came out the last 10 years.  The interior looks horrendous.

But they dont need to improve it, because the damn thing's grown in sales 25% YoY for 10 years on a the same base.  Its got a ridiculously good following.

 

Look at the residuals and resale on their old boring ass trucks...  

[Gravy Train 974]

Lulz. That is exactly why I recommend Toyota. You have to go to Porsche to get similar reliability, and what kind of price point comparison is that??

The reliability claims are oversold and built upon an aging impression just as SEC preseason polls are over-inflated. The precision, supply chain and consumer exposure behind mass-produced cars has transformed the product into a practical appliance, and many consumers view cars as such with little understanding of what's going on under the hood.

Most of the volume leaders from TMNA are fairly simple in design and utilize cross-platform component sharing. In these segments, are any of the completing brands truly maintenance nightmares? My brow is raised toward Nissan for adopting the CVT across their fleet and Ford's DCT in the Focus but these aren't exotic vehicles with maintenance schedules calling for anything more than regular fluid changes and consumables, brake linings, batteries, filters and tires.

Hell, most cars are delivered with transmissions filled for life and timing chain sets that no longer call for services at 90k miles. As mentioned, impressions have focused to dash molesting, infotainment tech, brand loyalty and fuel mileage claims.

[TwiceHorn 31166]

7 hours ago, 52-80 said:

Or basic any modern safety features or tech...anything that came out the last 10 years.  The interior looks horrendous.

But they dont need to improve it, because the damn thing's grown in sales 25% YoY for 10 years on a the same base.  Its got a ridiculously good following.

Just way to costly to have developed it themselves.  There's nothing in the car formula it that they could have reused from existing parts - new chassis, new motor, new transmission, etc.  (Unless they wanted a v8 coupe...).  Same reason they split the other sports car project with Subaru. 

Right, because their innovation is so lacking/lagging that they can't push the leading edge at all.  You have to think that at some point it's going to bite them in the ass.

The BRZ is another good case-in-point and it's not even a complex vehicle.

It's like any company that refuses to invest in R/D.  Except R/D is more critical in automotive.

Edited October 9, 2019 by TwiceHorn

[Gravy Train 974]

Tokyo is too risk-averse these days and keyed on a consumer that we don't relate to. Toyota once spent millions developing the LF-A, a brand halo car that saw three concept iterations, years of delays, a bespoke V10 (in partnership with Yamaha) and in-house carbon fiber looms.  As lauded as the car was in the press, it was punched in the dick by the Aventador, MP4-12C and GT-R for performance/dollar, 458 for styling/desire and Veyron for an engineering showcase.  The LF-A might have been more successful (and credible) if it were released on schedule by 2009, but 2011 was too late for what the competition was working on.

Now everything is contracted out and their attention seems to be focused on hydrogen, micro urban commuters and connected infrastructure services.  They perfected lead-acid hybrids and worked CAFE averages to their advantage while slow-playing diesels, gasoline direct injection and small-displacement turbocharging in North America until their competition forced their hand.  I'm convinced the GR Supra is just a brand marketing tool.

Edited October 9, 2019 by Gravy Train

[Anton Chigurh 3318]

Just way to costly to have developed it themselves.  There's nothing in the car formula it that they could have reused from existing parts - new chassis, new motor, new transmission, etc.  (Unless they wanted a v8 coupe...).  Same reason they split the other sports car project with Subaru. 

 

I think this would’ve been a fine base. But they wanted it smaller.

 

[Anton Chigurh 3318]

Also, to be fair, direct injection sucks because of all the drawbacks. Lots have gone to having dual injection now with port injectors as well. Toyota has actually done that for 10 years (they did something!).

[elfenix 34163]

16 hours ago, Chewbacca said:

Maybe it has changed with the 2019 model year, but as of 2018 you can't even get a 4Runner with push button start.  I'm not sure on the Sequoia but it didn't have it in 2017.  That's just ridiculous.  My 2011 G37 had that.

4runner just moved up the list.  fuck those things. 

[LebongJames 1781]

Our 2016 4Runner has push button start

[Chewbacca 7691]

Just now, LebongJames said:

Our 2016 4Runner has push button start

My brother has a 2018 and his does not.  Interesting.

[LebongJames 1781]

It’s a Limited, so that may be the difference. Also didnt pay anywhere near $50k. We got it for $40500. That’s one of the reasons we ended up with the 4Runner. For the features on that car everything else we looked at it was north of $50k.

 

 

[G650 13954]

Everything has gotten to be so reliable and have such a long service life these days it's always a scream to watch people slap fight over "reliability"

[elfenix 34163]

23 minutes ago, Anton Chigurh said:

 

I think this would’ve been a fine base. But they wanted it smaller.

 

they wanted an I6 in the supra to keep it a supra (can't blame them for that), and it would have to be bought in since toyota doesn't currently have one.  since they had to do that, it might not make financial sense to rejigger TNGA to accommodate the I6 instead of getting most of a car from magna. toyota's cost on the new supra is comparatively nothing.

Edited October 9, 2019 by elfenix

[ChiTownDoc 21090]

On 10/5/2019 at 10:35 AM, HoustonHorn said:

550i should be delivered today. Having it delivered to EVS Motors for tint and full satin wrap. They use Prestige SatinGuard which i went and looked at and its pretty slick looking.

The 2020 550i comes with 523hp and 580 lb-ft torque. Dinan apparently isn't supported by BMW anymore, but they said they can tune the car and add 100hp and over 100 lb-ft of torque. It's all electronic tuning and basically turns it into an M5.

Anybody have experience with tuning like this and had any issues with the warranty?

This sounds stupid/obvious but be good buddies w your dealer or someone there.  They have all the leeway in the world if they like you. I beat the hell out of all my cars. S63 pushing over 800hp and has issues come up.  They fix it all and even extended to 100k with no problems.  
 

If they wanna be dicks that tune will definitely void your warranty.  

[Loco 3752]

1 hour ago, ChiTownDoc said:

If they wanna be dicks that tune will definitely void your warranty.  

If they want to be dicks, lovebugs will void your warranty.   I've heard straight nightmare stories about one of the big BMW dealers here.  

[Okie State 3765]

1 hour ago, G650 said:

Everything has gotten to be so reliable and have such a long service life these days it's always a scream to watch people slap fight over "reliability"

Not sure I agree completely. Electronics seem to be the weak link in modern vehicles and they're becoming more and more prominent. If you read complaints, it's often related to computer glitches or electrical gremlins. As previously mentioned, electrical issues have seemingly killed one if our vehicles that may otherwise go another 100K miles.

[Gravy Train 974]

What's the electrical issue in your case?  Unless it was an ignition coil or computer leading to catastrophic detonation, I can't think of an electrical component capable of killing a car.

 

Well, there was once a terrible design Ford employed to integrate an always-energized cruise control switch to the brake booster of their trucks, vans and SUVs that resulted in seemingly spontaneous combustion, fueled by brake fluid.  Then there was the GM ignition switch debacle...

[elfenix 34163]

2 hours ago, G650 said:

Everything has gotten to be so reliable and have such a long service life these days it's always a scream to watch people slap fight over "reliability"

between this and the prior thread on kevin's shit board, how many complaints about BMWs have there been?

[52-80 19062]

2 hours ago, elfenix said:

4runner just moved up the list.  fuck those things. 

keys are soooooo 2001

[52-80 19062]

3 hours ago, Gravy Train said:

 

Now everything is contracted out and their attention seems to be focused on hydrogen, micro urban commuters and connected infrastructure services.  They perfected lead-acid hybrids and worked CAFE averages to their advantage while slow-playing diesels, gasoline direct injection and small-displacement turbocharging in North America until their competition forced their hand. 

Makes sense from a business point of view.  But OTOH I dont see why they still maintain a racing presence, and even launched cars under Gazoo Racing brands the GMRN Yaris, GT86, etc

[G650 13954]

29 minutes ago, Okie State said:

Not sure I agree completely. Electronics seem to be the weak link in modern vehicles and they're becoming more and more prominent. If you read complaints, it's often related to computer glitches or electrical gremlins. As previously mentioned, electrical issues have seemingly killed one if our vehicles that may otherwise go another 100K miles.

 

It's not really an agree/disagree situation, it's just a fact. Engines were 100k items before, transmissions about the same. Now they are 300k plus at least. Tires were 15k items, now 50k. Alternators, compressors, etc..The list is basically endless.

People have very selective memories when thinking about old vehicles. It was the 80's before some semblance of longevity arrived via Toyota and Volvo, and the mid 00's before it really became modern in terms of lifespan. Even as late the 90's and early 00's all of our Chevy 1500s had two or three motors and transmissions over their lives. I wasn't exaggerating the amount of transmissions we've bought. Crate 350's too.

 

9 minutes ago, elfenix said:

between this and the prior thread on kevin's shit board, how many complaints about BMWs have there been?

Dunno? I was looking at people arguing the merits of the Toyota philosophy mainly.

[Okie State 3765]

24 minutes ago, Gravy Train said:

What's the electrical issue in your case?  Unless it was an ignition coil or computer leading to catastrophic detonation, I can't think of an electrical component capable of killing a car.

 

Well, there was once a terrible design Ford employed to integrate an always-energized cruise control switch to the brake booster of their trucks, vans and SUVs that resulted in seemingly spontaneous combustion, fueled by brake fluid.  Then there was the GM ignition switch debacle...

If I knew, I'd fix it. Entire fucking car is possessed. Fuck hybrids.

[ChiTownDoc 21090]

11 minutes ago, G650 said:

 

It's not really an agree/disagree situation, it's just a fact. Engines were 100k items before, transmissions about the same. Now they are 300k plus at least. Tires were 15k items, now 50k. Alternators, compressors, etc..The list is basically endless.

People have very selective memories when thinking about old vehicles. It was the 80's before some semblance of longevity arrived via Toyota and Volvo, and the mid 00's before it really became modern in terms of lifespan. Even as late the 90's and early 00's all of our Chevy 1500s had two or three motors and transmissions over their lives. I wasn't exaggerating the amount of transmissions we've bought. Crate 350's too.

 

Dunno? I was looking at people arguing the merits of the Toyota philosophy mainly.

Where are these 50000 mi tires from?  Need me some of them.  

Edited October 9, 2019 by ChiTownDoc

[G650 13954]

2 minutes ago, ChiTownDoc said:

Where are these 50000 mi tires from?  Need me some of them.  

Yeah, me too lol.