The Alamo

[South Austin 52,628]

Has the Alamo re-opened the basement for tours?

[Michael Knight 12,995]

On 3/1/2020 at 9:15 PM, Parliament said:

I had the chance to tour the Alamo last week, and it really struck me.  A whole buncha men, both Texans and from far away faced certain death defending a fort from Santa Anna.  Sure it was strategically important, but I bet there was a way they coulda left it to Santa Anna in a tactical retreat, and still won the war.  Why didn't they do it?  Because it wasn't his, fuck you, that's why.

Reading the names of the men who defended the Alamo, and I realized just about every one of them has an important place in Texas named after him.  To Texas, the defense of the Alamo was the Guns of Fort Ticonderoga, the Crossing of the Delaware and the Battle of Thermopylae all in one.  It gave Texas the reputation it still has today.

Or am I wrong?

 

Texas has a long and complicated history, being ignorant about it doesn't help

[dcar00 14,378]

2 hours ago, South Austin said:

Has the Alamo re-opened the basement for tours?

talk about lobbing a softball...

[F250 28,826]

2 hours ago, Kennythetiger said:

Takes a pretty mean hombre to run off the Apache. 

Exactly. The Comanches were the Vikings of North America and they didn't just run off the Apache, they terrorized them. The only Indian tribe that expanded their power after the arrival of the Europeans. The Spanish introducing horses to North America was like filling Bruce Banner with gamma rays when it came to the Comanche.

When you consider the Comanche were way more dominant and aggressive than the Apache plus the fact they were fighting a paramilitary force like the Texas Rangers, as opposed to the Apache vs the U.S. calvary, there should be more attention on this piece of history.

[F250 28,826]

7 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

talk about lobbing a softball...

I was going to take a swing but it was too easy.

[Fuck Tim Beck 3,834]

12 minutes ago, F250 said:

Exactly. The Comanches were the Vikings of North America and they didn't just run off the Apache, they terrorized them. The only Indian tribe that expanded their power after the arrival of the Europeans. The Spanish introducing horses to North America was like filling Bruce Banner with gamma rays when it came to the Comanche.

When you consider the Comanche were way more dominant and aggressive than the Apache plus the fact they were fighting a paramilitary force like the Texas Rangers, as opposed to the Apache vs the U.S. calvary, there should be more attention on this piece of history.

Someone on the old site had recommended the book "Empire of the summer moon." Great book about the Comanche and Quanah Parker specifically. Even other Comanche tribes viewed Parker's tribe as savages. 

[Frank Erwin 203]

Three Road to the Alamo is a great book to get the AnteAlamo background story for Travis, Bowie, and Crockett.  This time of year always makes me go back and re-read some book on Texas History.  Texas is a land made great by her people and their exploits, and yes, the Battle of the Alamo does exemplify the character of Texas and Texans.  On March 6, my boys will again hear the chilling sound of "El Deguello" as we recount the Fall of the Alamo, with Onderdonk's print behind us.

[F250 28,826]

Anyone ever attend the Dawn of the Alamo event or any of the other ceremonies on March 6th at the Alamo?

[Hate 20,146]

1 hour ago, F250 said:

Exactly. The Comanches were the Vikings of North America and they didn't just run off the Apache, they terrorized them. The only Indian tribe that expanded their power after the arrival of the Europeans. The Spanish introducing horses to North America was like filling Bruce Banner with gamma rays when it came to the Comanche.

When you consider the Comanche were way more dominant and aggressive than the Apache plus the fact they were fighting a paramilitary force like the Texas Rangers, as opposed to the Apache vs the U.S. calvary, there should be more attention on this piece of history.

I mentioned it in another thread a couple of months ago, but my great great grandfather was the Sheriff of Llano County and fought off the Comanche during the Civil War days when a large percentage of the male population was off fighting in that war.  He was posthumously (obviously) awarded  Texas Ranger status a couple of years ago and a star was placed on his tombstone. /csb

Edited March 3, 2020 by Hate

[jdhorn92 1,558]

6 hours ago, Hate said:

I mentioned it in another thread a couple of months ago, but my great great grandfather was the Sheriff of Llano County and fought off the Comanche during the Civil War days when a large percentage of the male population was off fighting in that war.  He was posthumously (obviously) awarded  Texas Ranger status a couple of years ago and a star was placed on his tombstone. /csb

Well then he is certified one bad ass dude then. I read Empire of the Summer Wind and The Son, both great Comanche books. Those Comanches were a major force , good on your grand pappy !

[ImissWallyPryor 9,046]

On 3/2/2020 at 3:12 PM, Macanudo said:

And you get to have a drink where Teddy Roosevelt recruited Roughriders.

There's a great book about American myths and legends that I read years ago that has a chapter on the Alamo.  The author brings up the point about most Americans not knowing that we lost at the Alamo.

And his ending comment is sublime... 

"The point about the Alamo is that if you're going to lose, lose this way."

I finally read "Three Roads to the Alamo" about Bowie, Crockett and Travis last month.  Honestly, I think the decision to stay only worked out because Santa Ana took his eyes off the prize (crush the rebellion) and took the bait to sit in San Antonio.  Based on the outcome, he should have been able to overwhelm the defenders 7-10 days earlier.  Or leave Cos there to bottle up the defenders and take off after the leaders in San Felipe and other areas.  The one thing I have always wondered was what would have happened if Fannin had gotten off his as and moved his men to Bexar in February.  With 400+ men at the Alamo, the outcome might have still ended in a loss but the Mexican casualties would have been much greater. 

And De La Pena can kiss my ass.  Davy died swinging his Brown Bess above his head like a club fighting to the death.

 

What was it called then, or what is it called now? Depending on your answer, I may have a csb. 
 

And there is a valid argument that the De La Peña diary is a forgery. 

Edited March 4, 2020 by ImissWallyPryor

[Macanudo 13,017]

If you're talking about the bar, it's always been the Menger Bar.  If it's the book....  "I Don't Care If Paul Revere Rode or Not."

[tomahawk dunk 339]

9 hours ago, Fuck Tim Beck said:

Someone on the old site had recommended the book "Empire of the summer moon." Great book about the Comanche and Quanah Parker specifically. Even other Comanche tribes viewed Parker's tribe as savages. 

Empire of the Summer Moon was great. The Captured by Scott Zesch covers some of the same stories but it mainly talks about white settlers taken by the Indians. An interesting read as well.

[Armybrat 40,920]

1 hour ago, Macanudo said:

If you're talking about the bar, it's always been the Menger Bar.  If it's the book....  "I Don't Care If Paul Revere Rode or Not."

The original Menger bar that TR patronized was in a different part of the building in 1898.

[miguelito 11,313]

Now you tell us.

 

[Beau Vine 54,465]

On 3/1/2020 at 9:15 PM, Parliament said:

I had the chance to tour the Alamo last week, and it really struck me.  A whole buncha men, both Texans and from far away faced certain death defending a fort from Santa Anna.  Sure it was strategically important, but I bet there was a way they coulda left it to Santa Anna in a tactical retreat, and still won the war.  Why didn't they do it?  Because it wasn't his, fuck you, that's why.

Reading the names of the men who defended the Alamo, and I realized just about every one of them has an important place in Texas named after him.  To Texas, the defense of the Alamo was the Guns of Fort Ticonderoga, the Crossing of the Delaware and the Battle of Thermopylae all in one.  It gave Texas the reputation it still has today.

Or am I wrong?

I've told this before, but a couple of years ago, my daughter brought her college boyfriend from NYC (Long Beach) home for Christmas.  She took him around to Austin/SA.  I asked him about seeing the Alamo, and he seemed relatively unimpressed.  

I said, "You know that statue out front?  Those guys are the Texas version of the 9/11 NYFD guys." 

He gulped, nodded, and said, "OK, I get it now."

[Knoxtnhorn 6,066]

This hits close to home.

I'm a direct descendant of James Clinton Neill (Gonzales, Come and Take It) who commanded the Alamo before Travis took over.  He had returned home to take care of his ill family.  At the time, the Texians didn't think Santa Ana would make it to the area until early summer.  He was on his way back when the Alamo fell.  He was also injured at San Jacinto.

The guy who played Davy Crockett in the 50's, Fess Parker, is my uncle or something.  His mom was at my parent's wedding and apparently bitched so much, they had to shut down the reception earlier than planned to take her home.

Also, I stayed at The Menger last summer.  I had no idea its ties to Teddy Roosevelt until sitting in the bar and reading some of the historical stuff on the wall.

Again, really hits close to home...

 

[Knoxtnhorn 6,066]

This hits close to home.

I'm a direct descendant of James Clinton Neill (Gonzales, Come and Take It) who commanded the Alamo before Travis took over.  He had returned home to take care of his ill family.  At the time, the Texians didn't think Santa Ana would make it to the area until early summer.  He was on his way back when the Alamo fell.  He was also injured at San Jacinto.

The guy who played Davy Crockett in the 50's, Fess Parker, is my uncle or something.  His mom was at my parent's wedding and apparently bitched so much, they had to shut down the reception earlier than planned to take her home.

Also, I stayed at The Menger last summer.  I had no idea its ties to Teddy Roosevelt until sitting in the bar and reading some of the historical stuff on the wall.

Again, really hits close to home...

 

[Knoxtnhorn 6,066]

This hits close to home.

I'm a direct descendant of James Clinton Neill (Gonzales, Come and Take It) who commanded the Alamo before Travis took over.  He had returned home to take care of his ill family.  At the time, the Texians didn't think Santa Ana would make it to the area until early summer.  He was on his way back when the Alamo fell.  He was also injured at San Jacinto.

The guy who played Davy Crockett in the 50's, Fess Parker, is my uncle or something.  His mom was at my parent's wedding and apparently bitched so much, they had to shut down the reception earlier than planned to take her home.

Also, I stayed at The Menger last summer.  I had no idea its ties to Teddy Roosevelt until sitting in the bar and reading some of the historical stuff on the wall.

Again, really hits close to home...

 

[Beau Vine 54,465]

On 3/2/2020 at 3:18 AM, Onboard 2.0 said:

They do ?  Can't say as I've ever met a single person who thought they won @ the Alamo.  I'm sure they exist, but I haven't run across one.

I have.  I thought his post was pretty accurate.

[Fuck Tim Beck 3,834]

20 minutes ago, tomahawk dunk said:

Empire of the Summer Moon was great. The Captured by Scott Zesch covers some of the same stories but it mainly talks about white settlers taken by the Indians. An interesting read as well.

Thanks for posting this. I'll check it out

[ImissWallyPryor 9,046]

2 hours ago, Macanudo said:

If you're talking about the bar, it's always been the Menger Bar.  If it's the book....  "I Don't Care If Paul Revere Rode or Not."

My wife’s Czech ancestor opened this saloon about 3 blocks from the Alamo, but he died a year or two before Teddy Roosevelt was recruiting Rough Riders in San Antonio. 

It’s still there under a different name, but I think the street address may have changed. The address above takes me to a building that wasn’t there in the 1880s. This is supposed to be an original wall in the current establishment.

[Macanudo 13,017]

1 hour ago, Armybrat said:

The original Menger bar that TR patronized was in a different part of the building in 1898.

And the bar got dismantled and cut down several times. 

[DoobieWah 1,467]

2 hours ago, Armybrat said:

The original Menger bar that TR patronized was in a different part of the building in 1898.

 

No one?

 

Really?

[JohnnyRage 1,617]

So what are y'alls thoughts on the new book? I don't read.

[StassneyHorn 6,643]

Then read it and leave your own thoughts

[Armybrat 40,920]

On 3/3/2020 at 10:59 PM, DoobieWah said:

 

No one?

 

Really?

 

[High Plains Drifter 11,052]

8 hours ago, StassneyHorn said:

Then read it and leave your own thoughts

 

I assume you mean

 

 

One of those authors is a friend of mine. He is about as Texas as they come. He can trace his family back to before Texas' Independence on one side, and the to the Civil War on the other.

He's been getting death threats.

 

 

[Armybrat 40,920]

Not a John Wayne fan I’d wager... 😃

[Armybrat 40,920]

3 minutes ago, Patricio Swayze said:

People are total fucking idiots.  The MAGA Texans I imagine make up 99% of those threats.

Probably, but the last band of secessionist idiots out in West Texas were led by some carpetbagger from Missouri.

[Hate 20,146]

On 3/3/2020 at 9:12 PM, Knoxtnhorn said:

This hits close to home.

I'm a direct descendant of James Clinton Neill (Gonzales, Come and Take It) who commanded the Alamo before Travis took over.  He had returned home to take care of his ill family.  At the time, the Texians didn't think Santa Ana would make it to the area until early summer.  He was on his way back when the Alamo fell.  He was also injured at San Jacinto.

The guy who played Davy Crockett in the 50's, Fess Parker, is my uncle or something.  His mom was at my parent's wedding and apparently bitched so much, they had to shut down the reception earlier than planned to take her home.

Also, I stayed at The Menger last summer.  I had no idea its ties to Teddy Roosevelt until sitting in the bar and reading some of the historical stuff on the wall.

Again, really hits close to home...

 

I posted this in another thread, but I recently found out I am a direct descendant of Abner Kuykendall.  He was among the first to bring his family to Austin's Colony. He was good friends with Stephen F. Austin and was appointed to be the Captain of the Militia for the colony.  He led several scout missions to defend the colony against the natives.  He was stabbed in the neck in 1834 and died of tetanus.  His killer was tried and the prosecutor was William Travis.  The killer was found guilty and was immediately dragged out and hanged by two of Abner's sons, one of which is my 7th generation Grandpa Gibson.  That was the first legal execution in Austin's Colony.  Abner would have been the general for the Texas Army had he not been murdered instead of Sam Houston.  The Kuykendalls had a feud with Houston dating back to their days in Kentucky. 

Gibson went on to be a Captain in the Texas Army serving under General Burleson.  Gibson tried to lead his unit to the Alamo and then again to Goliad, but was ordered to stand down by Houston.  Houston threatened court martial to anyone that left to go to either site.  Gibson later was ordered to stay behind to guard the wounded and supplies at Harrisburg rather than participating in the decisive battle in San Jacinto. 

One of Gibson's younger brothers was Jonathan Hampton Kuykendall.  He was good friends with William Travis as they studied law together.  Jonathan Kuykendall was in Chihuahua, Mexico when he heard that Santa Anna was bringing his army into Texas to squash the rebellion. He rode back ahead of the army to alert the colonists and Colonel Fannin  of the impending attack.  

 

It's pretty cool to find out that people in your family participated in a big way to the formation of Texas. 

[Guest Lobo]

4 hours ago, High Plains Drifter said:

 

I assume you mean

 

 

One of those authors is a friend of mine. He is about as Texas as they come. He can trace his family back to before Texas' Independence on one side, and the to the Civil War on the other.

He's been getting death threats.

 

 

I think we know the same guy.  Between his energy writing and this work, he's been pissing people off for doing that weird thing called 'telling the truth.'  

We have a couple of decades of bullshit to work through as a state.  We are not who we think we are.  And the first boondoggle is the "Well, you're not a native Texan, so you wouldn't understand!"  The foundation of lies starts with that.  We gotta work through some shit

[MaybeACoordinator 8,349]

I am puzzled by the reaction to this book. Hasn't this revisionist history been known for decades now? What in particular is pissing off the MAGATs? Or are they just energized now?

[South Austin 52,628]

1 hour ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

I am puzzled by the reaction to this book. Hasn't this revisionist history been known for decades now? What in particular is pissing off the MAGATs? Or are they just energized now?

They need a tiny new toy of hatred every few months to keep them going.

[JohnnyRage 1,617]

The author stated on a podcast that the Disney movie was a passion piece for John Wayne in order to battle against the Commie leftist and to throw his support behind Nixon. He thought a Kennedy election would destroy this country.

It's weird how 60 years later we are having the exact same conversations and strife. The movie is the single greatest propellant of the myths, and was soon later buoyed by an infatuation so strong that it caused LBJ to make up an ancestor.

 

The most striking thing that I took away from the conversation, other than the slavery thing, was that there were only 4,000 persons in the whole area of Texas in the 18-teens before settlement. 15 years later we would have a country.

[Armybrat 40,920]

2 hours ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

I am puzzled by the reaction to this book. Hasn't this revisionist history been known for decades now? What in particular is pissing off the MAGATs? Or are they just energized now?

Yes it has been - we were teaching the Texans’ slavery aspect 50 years ago, that Sam Houston was an alcoholic, Travis a fugitive murderer, along with the fact that Santa Anna was a drug addict shitbag who screwed young girls and slaughtered the rebels in Zacatecas before he turned his sights on Texas.

[Armybrat 40,920]

39 minutes ago, JohnnyRage said:

The author stated on a podcast that the Disney movie was a passion piece for John Wayne in order to battle against the Commie leftist and to throw his support behind Nixon. He thought a Kennedy election would destroy this country.

It's weird how 60 years later we are having the exact same conversations and strife. The movie is the single greatest propellant of the myths, and was soon later buoyed by an infatuation so strong that it caused LBJ to make up an ancestor.

 

The most striking thing that I took away from the conversation, other than the slavery thing, was that there were only 4,000 persons in the whole area of Texas in the 18-teens before settlement. 15 years later we would have a country.

Yep, the Spanish couldn’t persuade enough of their own people to settle in Tejas to act as a buffer against the Plains injuns up here. 
So they took up Moses Austin’s offer to bring in gringo settlers.

Thay should’ve known better, what with all the trouble they had with the filibuster rabble in the previous decades.

Edited June 18, 2021 by Armybrat

[NeverMarryAStripper 21,943]

What's the point of winning if you don't get to make up the history afterwards

[Chad Fuck 17,808]

15 hours ago, Armybrat said:

Probably, but the last band of secessionist idiots out in West Texas were led by some carpetbagger from Missouri.

Are you talking about Stephen F. Austin here, or someone else?

[Chad Fuck 17,808]

15 hours ago, Hate said:

I posted this in another thread, but I recently found out I am a direct descendant of Abner Kuykendall.  He was among the first to bring his family to Austin's Colony. He was good friends with Stephen F. Austin and was appointed to be the Captain of the Militia for the colony.  He led several scout missions to defend the colony against the natives.  He was stabbed in the neck in 1834 and died of tetanus.  His killer was tried and the prosecutor was William Travis.  The killer was found guilty and was immediately dragged out and hanged by two of Abner's sons, one of which is my 7th generation Grandpa Gibson.  That was the first legal execution in Austin's Colony.  Abner would have been the general for the Texas Army had he not been murdered instead of Sam Houston.  The Kuykendalls had a feud with Houston dating back to their days in Kentucky. 

Gibson went on to be a Captain in the Texas Army serving under General Burleson.  Gibson tried to lead his unit to the Alamo and then again to Goliad, but was ordered to stand down by Houston.  Houston threatened court martial to anyone that left to go to either site.  Gibson later was ordered to stay behind to guard the wounded and supplies at Harrisburg rather than participating in the decisive battle in San Jacinto. 

One of Gibson's younger brothers was Jonathan Hampton Kuykendall.  He was good friends with William Travis as they studied law together.  Jonathan Kuykendall was in Chihuahua, Mexico when he heard that Santa Anna was bringing his army into Texas to squash the rebellion. He rode back ahead of the army to alert the colonists and Colonel Fannin  of the impending attack.  

 

It's pretty cool to find out that people in your family participated in a big way to the formation of Texas. 

This is a great story.  Chad Jr. and I did a great Texas History road trip this summer and stopped by Austin's colony and there was an active dig going on.  I stood where Travis's law office was.  I highly recommend going out there.  They have a very informative history center there.  Well worth the visit.

[Chad Fuck 17,808]

7 hours ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

I am puzzled by the reaction to this book. Hasn't this revisionist history been known for decades now? What in particular is pissing off the MAGATs? Or are they just energized now?

I heard it said that there are some folks who love their country/state like their mother - completely idealized and without fault.  

We all love our mothers, but some of us can recognize no one is without fault.  But just try and tell your friend their mother has faults. 

[Chad Fuck 17,808]

4 hours ago, NeverMarryAStripper said:

What's the point of winning if you don't get to make up the history afterwards

The weird thing about this history is it has been made up fairly recently.  Sure, there has always been a "Anglos made Texas what it is" stream of Texas history.  But it was put on steroids by the John Wayne movie, in conjunction with Disney's Fess Parker version of Davy Crockett, as referenced above.  If we could go back and ask our great-grandparents about their understanding of the Alamo pre-hollywood, I'd wager they'd have a very different view than the post-hollywood mythologized version.

Edited June 18, 2021 by Chad Fuck

[MaybeACoordinator 8,349]

1 minute ago, Chad Fuck said:

I heard it said that there are some folks who love their country/state like their mother - completely idealized and without fault.  

We all love our mothers, but some of us can recognize no one is without fault.  But just try and tell your friend their mother has faults. 

Well, I am in the "Son of a mother like Livia Soprano Club" so I guess I am immune. And as far as I know all three of the dudes who wrote that book are solid Texans.

I also write, and I've criticized Texas pretty harshly in some of my pieces. It cracks me up how I often I got called a Yankee or a Californian when in fact I am seventh generation on my mom's side and and fifth on my dad's. 

[MaybeACoordinator 8,349]

2 minutes ago, Chad Fuck said:

The weird thing about this history is it has been made up fairly recently.  Sure, there has always been a "Anglos made Texas what it is" stream of Texas history.  But it was put on steroids by the John Wayne movie, in conjunction with Disney's Fess Parker version of Davy Crockett, as referenced above.  If we could go back and ask our great-grandparents about their understanding of the Alamo pre-hollywood, I'd wager they'd have a very different view than the post-hollywood mythologized version.

Not sure about that -- it was around the Texas Centennial that the Alamo myth got supercharged. It was in an effort by Texas leaders to create a new mythology for us that weaned us away from Dixie. Why mope about the Lost Cause when we had our W and one in which slavery was kind of buried in a whole bunch of other shit, rather than front and center for the Confederacy. Santa Anna's depredations in Mexico gave us a villain that the South did not have. 

[Chad Fuck 17,808]

1 minute ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

Well, I am in the "Son of a mother like Livia Soprano Club" so I guess I am immune. And as far as I know all three of the dudes who wrote that book are solid Texans.

I also write, and I've criticized Texas pretty harshly in some of my pieces. It cracks me up how I often I got called a Yankee or a Californian when in fact I am seventh generation on my mom's side and and fifth on my dad's. 

I hear you, it's just that most of the time the people who prefer to live in the harsh light of reality, well, they don't get bent out of shape about reality.  They absorb it and move on.  Some people's identity is threatened by it and they wig the fuck out.

That's the point I was making.  Kind of.  I hope.  

Hey, it's Friday and I'm observing our new national holiday in my own particular way.  Forgive me if I go astray.  

[MaybeACoordinator 8,349]

Just now, Chad Fuck said:

I hear you, it's just that most of the time the people who prefer to live in the harsh light of reality, well, they don't get bent out of shape about reality.  They absorb it and move on.  Some people's identity is threatened by it and they wig the fuck out.

That's the point I was making.  Kind of.  I hope.  

Hey, it's Friday and I'm observing our new national holiday in my own particular way.  Forgive me if I go astray.  

Naw man, no offense taken, and I hope none given.

[Chad Fuck 17,808]

1 minute ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

Not sure about that -- it was around the Texas Centennial that the Alamo myth got supercharged. It was in an effort by Texas leaders to create a new mythology for us that weaned us away from Dixie. Why mope about the Lost Cause when we had our W and one in which slavery was kind of buried in a whole bunch of other shit, rather than front and center for the Confederacy. Santa Anna's depredations in Mexico gave us a villain that the South did not have. 

This is a fair point.  But Phil Collins didn't start collecting Alamo memorabilia because of the Texas State Fair.  He did it because of Fess Parker. 

[MaybeACoordinator 8,349]

Seems like if these redasses really gave a fuck Alamo Village in Brackettville would not be in ruins now. 

Edited June 18, 2021 by MaybeACoordinator

[Chad Fuck 17,808]

2 minutes ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

Seems like if these redasses really gave a fuck Alamo Village in Brackettville would not be in ruins now. 

 

[F250 28,826]

37 minutes ago, Chad Fuck said:

This is a fair point.  But Phil Collins didn't start collecting Alamo memorabilia because of the Texas State Fair.  He did it because of Fess Parker. 

Doesn't he also believe that he is a reincarnated soldier from the Battle of the Alamo?