Tax reform

[Biff Tannen 45,769]

My long shot hope is that due to social media, of all things, the Rs will be mercilessly called on their shenanigans when they start to trot out the deficit concerns again and will be constantly exposed for the fraudulent cunts they are.

[happyfunball 481]

9 hours ago, NBMisha said:

I'm going to promise myself I won't beat my head against the wall when this happens.  It is as certain as my golf slice.

already happening,..

 

 

[elfenix 34,387]

already happening,..
 
 

You mean the tax code encourages the economy to pay out in returns to capital? No way!

[woohorn 1,131]

Any update on the middle class tax cut promised on the eve of midterms?

[Stringer 1,472]

Bonuses are up $0.02 per hour

So, what did you do with your *checks notes* extra $40?

[ChickenSandwich 9,856]

Wait...I thought we WANTED to tax the rich more, instead we have a left leaning state trying to help the rich keep their tax cuts. Hypocrisy is thy name

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.foxbusiness.com/politics/high-tax-new-york-towns-to-battle-irs-over-salt-cap-workaround.amp

[Anastasis 23,513]

1 hour ago, Stringer said:

Bonuses are up $0.02 per hour

So, what did you do with your *checks notes* extra $40?

How many of you guys have been paid out your 2018 bonus yet?

without commenting on the broad impact of tax reform on wages and bonuses, that analysis is pretty limited at least with regarding to assessing the most common bonus structuring used by my org. 

[David Dennison 19,121]

11 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

Wait...I thought we WANTED to tax the rich more, instead we have a left leaning state trying to help the rich keep their tax cuts. Hypocrisy is thy name

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.foxbusiness.com/politics/high-tax-new-york-towns-to-battle-irs-over-salt-cap-workaround.amp

We do. We want to raise their rates and increase the number of brackets. 

A shit load of middle class Americans in states like Texas are getting fucked by the SALT elimination.

[Incredulity 11,693]

10 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

We do. We want to raise their rates and increase the number of brackets. 

A shit load of middle class Americans in states like Texas are getting fucked by the SALT elimination.

maybe try states like CA, NY, NJ, IL, OR.....  States with high income taxes rates.  Yes TX has high property tax.

[David Dennison 19,121]

Just now, Incredulity said:

maybe try states like CA, NY, NJ, IL, OR.....  States with high income taxes rates.  Yes TX has high property tax.

Yeah, and not being able to deduct those property taxes will leave a mark for a lot of Texans. Not a majority of property owners, but enough to piss people off.

[Incredulity 11,693]

2 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Yeah, and not being able to deduct those property taxes will leave a mark for a lot of Texans. Not a majority of property owners, but enough to piss people off.

You actually should be in favor.  It does what you say you want to do.  Raise taxes on wealthy, most distinctly, wealthy in blue states.

[babysdaddy 2,730]

1 hour ago, David Dennison said:

Yeah, and not being able to deduct those property taxes will leave a mark for a lot of Texans. Not a majority of property owners, but enough to piss people off.

10k in property taxes means you're living in a $650kish home.  Is that middle class to you?  

[Anastasis 23,513]

3 minutes ago, babysdaddy said:

10k in property taxes means you're living in a $650kish home.  Is that middle class to you?  

Yes. Upper. But still middle class. 

Edited December 18, 2018 by Anastasis

[Wiler77 1,586]

3 minutes ago, babysdaddy said:

10k in property taxes means you're living in a $650kish home.  Is that middle class to you?  

My tax rate is 2.7%.  10k in property taxes is a $370k home

[Anastasis 23,513]

1 minute ago, Wiler77 said:

My tax rate is 2.7%.  10k in property taxes is a $370k home

This doesn’t take into account the exemptions. Those don’t get you to 650 but it’s north of 370. 

Edited December 18, 2018 by Anastasis

[Pig Bellmont 8,757]

 

[sidis 9,841]

54 minutes ago, babysdaddy said:

10k in property taxes means you're living in a $650kish home.  Is that middle class to you?   

it is in the parts of texas that generate economic activity (austin, houston). 

i lost 18k of property tax deductions.  it sucks.  and if it were being done to raise revenues to lead to a healthier fiscal paradigm for the federal government, then it wouldn't be as frustrating as it is.  as it is, it is a meaningless offset to the utterly insane reduction of revenues from the ultrawealthy and corporations that were already experiencing their highest ever after-tax profitability.  pretty much a giant fuck you as it is...meaningless excrement swirling at the margins of an unnecessary stimulus during a period of heated aggregate demand.

[Anastasis 23,513]

Your in an income tax state? Or you have a 28k property tax bill?  If the latter that’s a nice humble brag.  

[David Dennison 19,121]

I just want to note that I had forgotten you will still claim up to $10,000 in SALT taxes.

My bad.

This does mainly affect the upper middle class and rich.

 

[sidis 9,841]

austin (wlh).  no, it is a humble "fuck me."  as was exempting my company from the reduction in corporate rates for being services...

[Lagunamadre 1,975]

7 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Your in an income tax state? Or you have a 28k property tax bill?  If the latter that’s a nice humble brag.  

That's the bill on a $1.3M house. Welcome to inside the loop of Houston. 

[Texas Jeff 1,978]

3 hours ago, David Dennison said:

Yeah, and not being able to deduct those property taxes will leave a mark for a lot of Texans. Not a majority of property owners, but enough to piss people off.

I think there are a lot of people that though of themselves as "well off" or "upper middle class" because they were able to itemize and get credit for property taxes, mortgage interest, and so on.  The new $24,000 standard deduction for MFJ is going to make the standard deduction the better choice for a lot of middle and upper-middle income taxpayers.

In theory this is a tax break but I think it's going to piss a bunch of people off.  People are going to feel like they spent money on property tax and mortgage interest payments and got no income tax benefit for doing that.  It's going to be harder for charities to get donations because fewer people are itemizing.

Also, the new re-arranged 1040 sucks.  What a lame idea.  Move some of the numbers to other statements so that the end result kinda looks like it might be around the size of a large postcard, in an era when more of us are just filing electronically.

[babysdaddy 2,730]

Forgive me for not seeing your hardship.  And if you are in a house that costs that much and in the service business and an owner (ex engineering since they apparently had the best lobbyists), then your income level would not qualify for the 20% pass through anyway.  So enjoy the doubling of the standard deduction and your reduced rates.  And cry me a fuckin river on your $1mm+ house.

 

For the record, I was totally against any change in the personal income tax (including SALT deduction cap....property tax bill well north of the deduction).  I'd also offer that any of you that believe living in a house that generates property taxes in excess of the SALT cap being middle class need to expand your horizons. 

[Anastasis 23,513]

14 minutes ago, Texas Jeff said:

 It's going to be harder for charities to get donations because fewer people are itemizing

Definitely going to impact giving. I made all my big 2017 and 2018 donations in 2017 so that I could maximize the standard deduction in 2018. In 2019 I will give all my big planned 19 and 20 donations in 19 and take the standard deduction again in 2020. Figure that’s about as long as this tax plan lasts in its current form anyways. 

Edited December 18, 2018 by Anastasis

[Anastasis 23,513]

15 minutes ago, babysdaddy said:

  I'd also offer that any of you that believe living in a house that generates property taxes in excess of the SALT cap being middle class need to expand your horizons

10k in property taxes represents a solid middle class house in almost every county in the United States. There is of course lots of room above that that I would also classify as middle class. But it sure as shit ain’t lower class. 

[babysdaddy 2,730]

Just now, Anastasis said:

10k in property taxes represents a solid middle class house in almost every county in the United States. There is of course lots of room above that that I would also classify as middle class. But it sure as shit ain’t lower class. 

We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this.  I just googled property taxes and this link showed up.  Spoiler, the highest median property tax in Texas is in Ft. Bend county and it's still 50% of the $10k deduction.  

"In the table below, we look at each county’s effective tax rate, which is equal to the amount of property tax that homeowners actually pay as a percentage of their home’s value. The table also includes the average annual tax payment and average home value in each county."

https://smartasset.com/taxes/texas-property-tax-calculator

 

 

 

[Anastasis 23,513]

Realize I probably misread your post. There is more room after 10k that is well within mc parameters. 

[Anastasis 23,513]

10 minutes ago, babysdaddy said:

We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this.  I just googled property taxes and this link showed up.  Spoiler, the highest median property tax in Texas is in Ft. Bend county and it's still 50% of the $10k deduction.  

"In the table below, we look at each county’s effective tax rate, which is equal to the amount of property tax that homeowners actually pay as a percentage of their home’s value. The table also includes the average annual tax payment and average home value in each county."

https://smartasset.com/taxes/texas-property-tax-calculator

 

 

 

I really don’t like distributional definitions of middle class, but it that’s what we are going to do we need more than the median. Give me the 25, 75, 90, 95 and 99 percentiles and I’ll counterpropose cut points. Without looking st actual numbers to reality check, I would offer a mc range at 25-75, upper middle class at 75-90 and rich at 90-95, and fucking rich at 99. But that’s just a starting point based on distribution. As I said, I don’t really like dogmatic adherence to distribution without no other inputs. 

[Anastasis 23,513]

Actually 90 may be too high as upper limit for upper middle class. Maybe 85. Need additional inputs. 

[Brisketexan 105,580]

1 minute ago, Anastasis said:

Actually 90 may be too high as upper limit for upper middle class. Maybe 85. Need additional inputs. 

Also needs local COLA adjustments. 150k is rich in San Saba, it's lower middle class in San Fran.

[Anastasis 23,513]

Just now, Brisketexan said:

Also needs local COLA adjustments. 150k is rich in San Saba, it's lower middle class in San Fran.

Right. Ideally I’d run that distribution based on some regional classification that made sense to account. 

[elfenix 34,387]

 

i'd like to find graphs zoomed in to 1%, 0.1%, and 0.01% as well, though they might need to be logarithmic which loses some of the impact. 

[babysdaddy 2,730]

original point by Dennison was that 10k in deduction limitation meant that "A shit load of middle class Americans in states like Texas are getting fucked by the SALT elimination."

I disagree and it really isn't a debate.  The SALT limitation deduction is not that impactful to people that are middle class in Texas because middle class folks aren't living in houses that have property tax bills above $10k.  People that have property tax bills that high have room to maneuver.

 

[Anastasis 23,513]

15 minutes ago, elfenix said:

 

i'd like to find graphs zoomed in to 1%, 0.1%, and 0.01% as well, though they might need to be logarithmic which loses some of the impact. 

Yeah, this is you can’t be dogmatic about letting measures of central tendency drive the definition. 

[sidis 9,841]

1 hour ago, babysdaddy said:

Forgive me for not seeing your hardship.  And if you are in a house that costs that much and in the service business and an owner (ex engineering since they apparently had the best lobbyists), then your income level would not qualify for the 20% pass through anyway.  So enjoy the doubling of the standard deduction and your reduced rates.  And cry me a fuckin river on your $1mm+ house. 

 

For the record, I was totally against any change in the personal income tax (including SALT deduction cap....property tax bill well north of the deduction).  I'd also offer that any of you that believe living in a house that generates property taxes in excess of the SALT cap being middle class need to expand your horizons.  

okay, i hear what you are saying and in a vacuum, i would not disagree with you if we were all existing in that vacuum.

however, i find your "cry me a fucking river" histrionics to be a bit ironic and just a bit disingenuous when you tell me that i need to suck it up and not complain about being taxed substantially more on actually creating extremely well paying jobs and living in an upper middle-class house so that we can reduce taxes on the people and corporations that would buy and sell my house, cars, accumulated wealth like a piece of fucking candy when they had already achieved such a dramatic level of wealth inequality between themselves and the rest of us (see changes in the gini coefficient in this country since reagan).  so while the republicans and the paid for dipshit in the wh is giving everything away to the billionaires and asking us in the middle-middle and upper-middle class to pick up the tab (lol, yeah right), your class warfare rhetoric rings hollow.

[Chuckie Finster 22,765]

 

[sidis 9,841]

37 minutes ago, babysdaddy said:

original point by Dennison was that 10k in deduction limitation meant that "A shit load of middle class Americans in states like Texas are getting fucked by the SALT elimination."

I disagree and it really isn't a debate.  The SALT limitation deduction is not that impactful to people that are middle class in Texas because middle class folks aren't living in houses that have property tax bills above $10k.  People that have property tax bills that high have room to maneuver.

  

middle class people have room to maneuver.  that's why they are middle class.  however, again, i ask...why are you okay with asking the middle and upper middle class to maneuver in order to enable tax reductions to the people on the very, very, very, very, very right end of the graph above?  why are you okay with that?

are you going to tell me because it will trickle down and create jobs?

[lemonlime 5,503]

My taxes are going up.  I live in an area with high SALT.  While I'm certainly not happy to pay taxes, I am grateful that I'm in a financial position that I have this issue, and that I live in a town with some of the best public schools in the country.

But my taxes going up pay for corporate tax cuts they're shipping overseas and taxes for the extremely wealthy, while the federal government is spending like a drunken sailor putting us all in debt, and spending like a drunken sailor on such things as a useless wall Mexico was supposed to pay for, child separation, imprisoning a large portion of the population, and trump's weekly golf vacations is fucking infuriating.  Meanwhile, the trump admin is slashing services people actually use like VA programs for suicide prevention and Medicaid.  And, it's representatives from donee states like Mississippi who are voting for this crap.  

[Brisketexan 105,580]

10 minutes ago, lemonlime said:

My taxes are going up.  I live in an area with high SALT.  While I'm certainly not happy to pay taxes, I am grateful that I'm in a financial position that I have this issue, and that I live in a town with some of the best public schools in the country.

But my taxes going up pay for corporate tax cuts they're shipping overseas and taxes for the extremely wealthy, while the federal government is spending like a drunken sailor putting us all in debt, and spending like a drunken sailor on such things as a useless wall Mexico was supposed to pay for, child separation, imprisoning a large portion of the population, and trump's weekly golf vacations is fucking infuriating.  Meanwhile, the trump admin is slashing services people actually use like VA programs for suicide prevention and Medicaid.  And, it's representatives from donee states like Mississippi who are voting for this crap.  

This.

If my taxes were going up to reduce the deficit and debt, I'd be okay with it.  

If my taxes were going up to fund the VA and its programs, I'd be okay with it.  Instead, for emphasis. they're going up to:

Quote

 pay for corporate tax cuts they're shipping overseas and taxes for the extremely wealthy, while the federal government is spending like a drunken sailor putting us all in debt, and spending like a drunken sailor on such things as a useless wall Mexico was supposed to pay for, child separation, imprisoning a large portion of the population, and trump's weekly golf vacations

Layer on to that the fact that this was supposed to be a "tax cut," and that makes it a triple-decker shit sandwich.  Which is the go-to menu item for this administration.  Everything is a shit sandwich.

Edited December 18, 2018 by Brisketexan

[Bozo_Casanova 26,684]

On 4/11/2018 at 8:05 PM, Bozo_Casanova said:

The question is not whether stimulus stimulates. The question is only whether the stimulus pays for itself. If it doesn't, it's ultimately a net drag on growth. These cuts, like the 2001 and 2003 cuts* will  structurally expand the deficit and the national debt. The corporate rate cuts were too large and the individual changes are just ridiculous. and while it will provide some modest level of stimulus, the Fed will effectively dampen it by raising the cost of money to contain inflation. 

 

 

 

* I predicted that, accurately, at the time back on Hornfans. @TahoeHorn, I seem to recall that you argued with me about that and suggested that we wait and see. Do you still think they were smart?

 

On 4/12/2018 at 10:19 AM, Bozo_Casanova said:

Hold up - inflation isn't "bad", provided that it's controlled* and slower than the rate of economic growth.  My point wasn't that the cuts were bad because they were inflationary, my point was that because they are, the Fed will have to contain inflation by raising rates (which was the plan all along), which will in turn dampen the stimulus effect of the cuts.

 

 

 

* That's what Central banks do. 

 

On 7/11/2018 at 7:57 PM, Bozo_Casanova said:

This thing was a wealth transfer from the many tomorrow to the few today. It will never pay for itself.

Where’s the coffee man? I’d like to talk about Bugtussle, and what it will be like there after he passes out of this world.

 

 

On 7/20/2018 at 12:38 PM, Bozo_Casanova said:

Oh hai guys - 

Remember back on the shag when I said that the middle class wouldn't respond politically to the cut because they wouldn't see enough of the benefit, and that any multiplier of this stimulus plan would be weak because the supply side stimulation would be blunted by the Fed tightening rates? Well, they haven't responded, and it was weak, and they have raised rates, so here comes the President after misunderstanding his first macro lesson to complain about things:

 

 

On 7/27/2018 at 5:53 PM, Bozo_Casanova said:

My solution as of today?  

Restructure revenue: Put the personal tax structure back to where it was in 2000, set the corporate rate to about 26-27%. Eliminate the cap on FICA/SECA “contributions” and cut the rates.

 

Cut costs:

Entitlements: turn social security into a means tested welfare program. Enact Wyden-Bennet or similar to achieve universal coverage more or less immediately in a cost neutral way.

 

Cut military headcount through attrition and use savings to restart WPA or equivalent.

 

Phased in, the combination of the above would likely achieve a budget surplus in about a decade without a historic deflationary event.

 

[Brisketexan 105,580]

4 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

 

 

 

 

You are.

And I'd lament the fact that you are now going to be insufferable with a giant swelled head....but I ALSO know that you are aware that your analysis wasn't genius-level.  It was fucking economics 101, so easy even a caveman could do it.  But it was still beyond DOTUS and his merry band of fellaters.

[Bozo_Casanova 26,684]

4 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

\And I'd lament the fact that you are now going to be insufferable with a giant swelled head....

'going to be'?

Edited December 18, 2018 by Bozo_Casanova

[Brisketexan 105,580]

7 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

'going to be'?

As long as you own the outfit in your avatar, you shouldn't get too big for your britches.

[TwiceHorn 31,686]

3 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

You are.

And I'd lament the fact that you are now going to be insufferable with a giant swelled head....but I ALSO know that you are aware that your analysis wasn't genius-level.  It was fucking economics 101, so easy even a caveman could do it.  But it was still beyond DOTUS and his merry band of fellaters.

It well may have been beyond dotus, but it wasn't beyond a bunch of those fucking lickspittles that passed it.  They knew damn well what it was going to do and how it was going to benefit them politically. 

[Brew 3,049]

I would like to see the numbers on the person who is getting limited on SALT and who’s overall tax bill is going up. Typically the cut in rates covers it along with the increased CTC if you have kids. You would have to have significant SALT deductions on a lower income number than typically supports it. The only people I have seen with an increase are lower income people with no kids they are getting caught in the 12% bracket or those with several kids and itemized deductions that lost the exemptions. I’m not saying it isn’t happening, but it’s the minority.  

[Incredulity 11,693]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article209015539.html

Trump's tax cut not for everyone: 1 million Californians will owe $12 billion more next year

 

I wonder why the lefties on the board don’t support this?

Edited December 20, 2018 by Incredulity

[Pig Bellmont 8,757]

 

[Brisketexan 105,580]

18 minutes ago, Pig Bellmont said:

 

And THAT, my friends, is what "winning" looks like.

I mean, if you define "winning" as "ramming a splinter-y wooden stick up your own ass to own the libs."

[David Dennison 19,121]

5 hours ago, Incredulity said:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article209015539.html

Trump's tax cut not for everyone: 1 million Californians will owe $12 billion more next year

 

I wonder why the lefties on the board don’t support this?

Because there are way more than one million wealthy individuals and a whole shit ton of corporations who got tax cuts that will save them much more than $12 billion.

 

Edited December 20, 2018 by David Dennison

[Incredulity 11,693]

1 hour ago, David Dennison said:

Because there are way more than one million wealthy individuals and a whole shit ton of corporations who got tax cuts that will save them much more than $12 billion.

 

the HORROR