Tax reform

[wildcat09 29256]

Just now, zork said:

Seems to me the argument is more of: you use the tax code rules as well, fucktard.

They literally challenged the New York Times to a debate. About what, I have no idea. 

[Fudge Nuggets 19151]

25 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

You honestly believe Fleet vehicles don't pay fuel taxes?  Derp.

Oh that tax that Fedex customers wind up paying via the fuel surchage?  That tax?

So yeah, Fedex isn't paying for their wear and tear; we are.

[Incredulity 11555]

5 minutes ago, Fudge Nuggets said:

Oh that tax that Fedex customers wind up paying via the fuel surchage?  That tax?

So yeah, Fedex isn't paying for their wear and tear; we are.

So consumers pay for business taxes?  Interesting.

[Anastasis 23395]

14 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Regular old tax dollars pay a crapload of the costs of building and maintaining our highway infrastructure.  And Fedex is paying [checks notes] not one penny of those.

Can you provide some details on this, in terms of the different sources of funding the highway system, both historically and currently.  Because my understanding is that the fuel tax surcharges not income taxes is the primary mechanism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highway_Trust_Fund

 

[Brisketexan 104624]

2 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Can you provide some details on this, in terms of the different sources of funding the highway system, both historically and currently.  Because my understanding is that the fuel tax surcharges not income taxes is the primary mechanism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highway_Trust_Fund

 

See the article I quoted.  

Short version: the fuel tax amount has stayed flat for a long-ass time.  But there has been inflation, and on top of that, there are additional costs coming due because of deferred maintenance.  So, the HTF does not have sufficient funding to cover our current highway expenses.  We're covering that funding need by transferring in billions from the general treasury (that is, generic tax dollars).

[Anastasis 23395]

41 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

See the article I quoted.  

Short version: the fuel tax amount has stayed flat for a long-ass time.  But there has been inflation, and on top of that, there are additional costs coming due because of deferred maintenance.  So, the HTF does not have sufficient funding to cover our current highway expenses.  We're covering that funding need by transferring in billions from the general treasury (that is, generic tax dollars).

So again, the primary funding mechanism is fuel taxes and other surcharges. To say that FedEx pays "absolutely nothing" towards building and constructing the road systems they use is wrong. The article you quote indicates that the HWT ran a cumulative $100B deficit since 2008.  I am pretty sure that FedEx has paid a substantial amount of federal income tax as well during that period of time. As far as HWT solvency, sounds to me like they need to peg the fuel tax to inflation, or cap the expenditures. 

If the argument here is that FedEx should pay a non-zero amount in federal incomes taxes, I would agree.  If the argument is that they don't pay anything towards supporting the infrastructure their business requires to function, I would disagree. Erroneous comments regarding the latter do not really inform a discussion of the former. 

Edited November 18, 2019 by Anastasis

[David Dennison 18658]

1 hour ago, Incredulity said:

So consumers pay for business taxes?  Interesting.

Ergo, we shouldn't tax businesses.

The Conservatives!

[Brisketexan 104624]

12 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

So again, the primary funding mechanism is fuel taxes and other surcharges. To say that FedEx pays "absolutely nothing" towards building and constructing the road systems they use is wrong. The article you quote indicates that the HWT ran a cumulative $100B deficit since 2008.  I am pretty sure that FedEx has paid a substantial amount of federal income tax as well during that period of time. As far as HWT solvency, sounds to me like they need to peg the fuel tax to inflation, or cap the expenditures. 

If the argument here is that FedEx should pay a non-zero amount in federal incomes taxes, I would agree.  If the argument is that they don't pay anything towards supporting the infrastructure their business requires to function, I would disagree. Erroneous comments regarding the latter do not really inform a discussion of the former. 

So....you're agreeing with me.

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

Saying they pay absolutely nothing is nonsensical.

Saying they don't pay their way, when all they pay is fuel and other similar taxes, is spot-on.

There we are.

In the bigger picture, the biggest beneficiaries of the institutions, structures, and infrastructure we have are those who use them to have their capitalist enterprises run along and through them like greased lightning.  Shipping protected by the US Navy and Coast Guard, roads paid by taxes and fees, courts to enforce contracts, all that shit.  Simplistic thinking says that the biggest beneficiaries of tax dollars are those who receive direct payments (welfare queens!).  Economics says that's actually the opposite of the truth.

And in recent decades, we've made sure that those who benefit the most pay less and less.

And the poorest folks can't pay more -- blood from a turnip and all that.

So, who makes up for it?  The middle class. Already burdened with crippling healthcare costs, and all but locked out of being able to continue that generational path because of skyrocketing college costs for their kids....we just add to their tax burden.

But hey, some execs needed another $20 million bonus for their brilliant efforts to [check notes] change tax policy to get their company more tax breaks.

[Anastasis 23395]

2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

So....you're agreeing with me.

 

Actually, you were agreeing with me.

 

[Anastasis 23395]

3 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

So, who makes up for it?  The middle class. Already burdened with crippling healthcare costs, and all but locked out of being able to continue that generational path because of skyrocketing college costs for their kids....we just add to their tax burden.

Here is more agreement.

The Middle Class has to shoulder the brunt of our fiscal dysfunction at the federal level. Especially the mid and upper middle class professional stiffs earning on a W2. 

[Incredulity 11555]

13 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Ergo, we shouldn't tax businesses.

The Conservatives!

[David Dennison 18658]

1 minute ago, Anastasis said:

Here is more agreement.

The Middle Class has to shoulder the brunt of our fiscal dysfunction at the federal level. Especially the mid and upper middle class professional stiffs earning on a W2. 

The effective tax rate of people making between $100,000 and $200,000 is around 13%. Between $200,000 and $500,000, it's 19.5%.

 

[Incredulity 11555]

35 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

So again, the primary funding mechanism is fuel taxes and other surcharges. To say that FedEx pays "absolutely nothing" towards building and constructing the road systems they use is wrong. The article you quote indicates that the HWT ran a cumulative $100B deficit since 2008.  I am pretty sure that FedEx has paid a substantial amount of federal income tax as well during that period of time. As far as HWT solvency, sounds to me like they need to peg the fuel tax to inflation, or cap the expenditures. 

If the argument here is that FedEx should pay a non-zero amount in federal incomes taxes, I would agree.  If the argument is that they don't pay anything towards supporting the infrastructure their business requires to function, I would disagree. Erroneous comments regarding the latter do not really inform a discussion of the former. 

It's not inflation that is the problem with the HWT.  Ironically, it is fuel efficiency.

[Brisketexan 104624]

54 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

It's not inflation that is the problem with the HWT.  Ironically, it is fuel efficiency.

As I understand, it's actually three factors:

1) inflation

2) yep, increased fuel efficiency

3) deferred maintenance (this is a problem with our infrastructure across the board -- we built shit 30-50 years ago, and now the "balloon payments" of repairing/replacing are all coming due)

[elfenix 34171]

considering the wear that pax cars/trucks put on highways compared to 18 wheelers, fedex trucking is getting subsidized. 

 

[elfenix 34171]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/12/16/corporations-paid-percent-tax-rate-last-year-steep-drop-under-president-trumps-law/?utm_campaign=post_most&utm_medium=Email&utm_source=Newsletter&wpisrc=nl_most&wpmm=1

 

Quote

About 400 of America’s largest corporations paid an average federal tax rate of about 11 percent on their profits last year, roughly half the official rate established under President Trump’s 2017 tax law, according to a report released Monday.

 

Quote

Many companies said a big drop in corporate tax rates would allow them to invest more in capital and equipment, but the uptick in new investment appears to have been short-lived. Much of the extra capital went into record stock buybacks, which increase share prices without requiring new investment or hiring.

 

[elfenix 34171]

https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2020-01-16/trump-tax-cut-hands-32-billion-windfall-to-america-s-top-banks?in_source=amp_trending_now_2

Top banks saved $18 billion in 2019, even more than prior year

Meanwhile lending slowed, job cuts mounted and dividends rose
[/Quote]

[Bozo_Casanova 26283]

The question is not whether stimulus stimulates. The question is only whether the stimulus pays for itself. If it doesn't, it's ultimately a net drag on growth. These cuts, like the 2001 and 2003 cuts* will  structurally expand the deficit and the national debt. The corporate rate cuts were too large and the individual changes are just ridiculous. and while it will provide some modest level of stimulus, the Fed will effectively dampen it by raising the cost of money to contain inflation. 
 
 
 
* I predicted that, accurately, at the time back on Hornfans. [mention=420]TahoeHorn[/mention], I seem to recall that you argued with me about that and suggested that we wait and see. Do you still think they were smart?

What this guy said.

[Bozo_Casanova 26283]

Maybe the tax cuts have yet to help or hurt revenue. It will take time to tell. 

Nope.

[Bozo_Casanova 26283]

Oh, and

That’s an irrelevant question. Stimulus stimulates. That’s not what stimulus does, that’s what stimulus is.The relevant question is if they pay for themselves over time. This one won’t.
 

[Incredulity 11555]

13 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

Oh, and

 

You’re incredibly impressive

 

 

 

 

 

to yourself.

[Bozo_Casanova 26283]

You’re incredibly impressive
 
 
 
 
 
to yourself.

Your mom was impressed, too.

[Storm the Field 5273]

This jerk-off again:

 

[elfenix 34171]

[Bozo_Casanova 26283]

41 minutes ago, Storm the Field said:

This jerk-off again:

 

 

[wildcat09 29256]

On 4/11/2018 at 7:14 PM, Incredulity said:

Shhhhhh!!!!!!.....trickle down is complete horseshit.

Liberal Moose out front shoulda told ya.

This guy sure was smart. We should trust him.

[Nivek 16859]

I thought the tax cuts were going to create high paying jobs for all? Maybe we need to reduce corporate rates to -5%.

[Incredulity 11555]

1 minute ago, Nivek said:

I thought the tax cuts were going to create high paying jobs for all? Maybe we need to reduce corporate rates to -5%.

[Foosters 17733]

9 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

Is this a serious post?

[Captainant 27463]

Should we tell him that real wage growth is less than 1%? Or would he find that incredulous?

[Bateshorn 9903]

On 1/17/2020 at 8:16 PM, elfenix said:

https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2020-01-16/trump-tax-cut-hands-32-billion-windfall-to-america-s-top-banks?in_source=amp_trending_now_2
 

And yet the Fed is having to lend into the daily short term market on the regular.

[Voldemort86 2259]

I guess Trumpski is promising a huge “ middle class tax cut” again. Anyone remember when he promised one of those right before the 2018 midterms?
 

i don’t know why any middle class voter with an IQ over retard level would believe this jack ass. His opportunity to pass huge middle class tax cuts was the first tax cut bill that they passed. Unfortunately, that bill only helped business owners and the top 10%.

[Brisketexan 104624]

4 minutes ago, Voldemort86 said:

i don’t know why any middle class voter with an IQ over retard level would believe this jack ass

You answered your own conundrum.

Stupid people is the most important voting bloc in the country.  Trump promised a middle class tax cut, the best health care that covers everybody for even cheaper than it is today, and that he wouldn't touch SS or Medicare.  He's broken the first two, and just today, promised to cut SS and Medicare.  But our voters are fucking Charlie Brown, charging the football for the 100th time.  Fucking idiots.

[Mrs Whiggins 13049]

It's even worse than Charlie Brown. At least he had the option for psychiatric help for a nickel.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13414]

3 hours ago, Voldemort86 said:

I guess Trumpski is promising a huge “ middle class tax cut” again. Anyone remember when he promised one of those right before the 2018 midterms?
 

i don’t know why any middle class voter with an IQ over retard level would believe this jack ass. His opportunity to pass huge middle class tax cuts was the first tax cut bill that they passed. Unfortunately, that bill only helped business owners and the top 10%.

There are some voters that really have no choice but to accept whatever some politician tells them will help them. They have zero control of their future prospects, and may listen to anyone that promises to help them. Even if they don’t believe that politician, it may be the only hope that he or she is telling the truth.

in 2016, coal miners were listening.  Trump said he would put them back to work. I recall Bill Clinton, speaking for Hillary, that they shouldn’t blame solar or wind, they should blame natural gas.  If your only job prospects and training is about digging coal out of the ground, who do you vote for? They’re not going to be retrained as nurses or programmers.

this happens with many groups. 

[Brisketexan 104624]

There are some voters that really have no choice but to accept whatever some politician tells them will help them. They have zero control of their future prospects, and may listen to anyone that promises to help them. Even if they don’t believe that politician, it may be the only hope that he or she is telling the truth.
in 2016, coal miners were listening.  Trump said he would put them back to work. I recall Bill Clinton, speaking for Hillary, that they shouldn’t blame solar or wind, they should blame natural gas.  If your only job prospects and training is about digging coal out of the ground, who do you vote for? They’re not going to be retrained as nurses or programmers.
this happens with many groups. 

They can do physical work. There are a zillion construction jobs in Texas. They even pay better than coal jobs. And are safer. They should move.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13414]

8 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

They can do physical work. There are a zillion construction jobs in Texas. They even pay better than coal jobs. And are safer. They should move.

They’re coalminers, don’t you understand!  They’re not ditch diggers or whatever you call them physical labor jobs in Texas. They have god given rights to mine coal, now get busy building some new coal power generation plants so they can earn a living.

Seriously, I hear ya.  It’s amazing that so many of us came from ancestors that came over to America with next to nothing and made a life.  We know have people that won’t move a mile from where they were born even if that keeps them in poverty.  

[TwiceHorn 31282]

4 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

You answered your own conundrum.

Stupid people is the most important voting bloc in the country.  Trump promised a middle class tax cut, the best health care that covers everybody for even cheaper than it is today, and that he wouldn't touch SS or Medicare.  He's broken the first two, and just today, promised to cut SS and Medicare.  But our voters are fucking Charlie Brown, charging the football for the 100th time.  Fucking idiots.

To be fair, stupid people have always been the most important voting bloc.

We just didn't know how well a stupid person candidate would appeal to them.  We usually have fairly intelligent candidates selling selected stupid shit to get elected.  Stupid shit that they can't deliver.

In 2016, we had a moron peddling stupid shit top to bottom.

Edited January 23, 2020 by TwiceHorn

[High Plains Drifter 10977]

On 11/18/2019 at 12:41 PM, Incredulity said:

It's not inflation that is the problem with the HWT.  Ironically, it is fuel efficiency.

 

Cars that are more fuel efficient are generally lighter. Lighter cars produce less wear and tear. Also, wear and tear does not increase lineally with increased weight, it increases exponentially. One 18 wheeler that gets 2 miles to the gallon does a lot more than 20 times the damage to the road than a rice burner that gets 40 miles to the gallon and drives the same number of miles. IOW, the rice burner driver is subsiding the cost of the damage the trucker does to the roads.

Perhaps once we are all driving electric cars (and decreasing maintenance costs, btw), increased fuel efficiency may be the largest factor, but we are no where near that point yet.

Yes, fuel efficiency results in less gas tax revenue. No, inflation and deferred maintenance are much larger problems.

 

tldr: wrong gif.

[High Plains Drifter 10977]

On 1/22/2020 at 8:16 PM, Brisketexan said:

They can do physical work. There are a zillion construction jobs in Texas. They even pay better than coal jobs. And are safer. They should move.

 

Dude, you know what they call people who move to get better jobs?

 

Migrants. (insert dramatic gasp here)

or worse,

Immigrants. (faints dead away)

[Biff Tannen 45495]

On 1/22/2020 at 8:56 PM, TwiceHorn said:

To be fair, stupid people have always been the most important voting bloc.

We just didn't know how well a stupid person candidate would appeal to them.  We usually have fairly intelligent candidates selling selected stupid shit to get elected.  Stupid shit that they can't deliver.

In 2016, we had a moron peddling stupid shit top to bottom.

This may be the most succinct and correct answer to what happened in 2016 I've ever seen.

[Message Board User 12389]

Doing my 2019 taxes now and anybody who supported the Trump tax cuts (or hell let’s just say Trump himself) should punch themselves in the balls until they die.

 

[tx 3 putt 76386]

10 minutes ago, Message Board User said:

Doing my 2019 taxes now and anybody who supported the Trump tax cuts (or hell let’s just say Trump himself) should punch themselves in the balls until they die.

 

 1234

[Js1 85110]

49 minutes ago, Message Board User said:

Doing my 2019 taxes now and anybody who supported the Trump tax cuts (or hell let’s just say Trump himself) should punch themselves in the balls until they die.

 

Right? My mom was like “good thing you can deduct your moving expenses” and I’m like “uh no they got rid of that except for military.” Her response: “that’s dumb, who did that?” 

YOU VOTED FOR HIM AND SUPPORTED IT, IDIOT

[Message Board User 12389]

44 minutes ago, Js1 said:

Right? My mom was like “good thing you can deduct your moving expenses” and I’m like “uh no they got rid of that except for military.” Her response: “that’s dumb, who did that?” 

YOU VOTED FOR HIM AND SUPPORTED IT, IDIOT

Removing the deductions is going a long way toward balancing the federal budget, right?

[woohorn 1131]

Well, it WILL-once it starts trickling down.

Be patient.

[tx 3 putt 76386]

They also took away claiming personal mileage as a business expense 

[David Dennison 18658]

 

[Incredulity 11555]

On 1/28/2020 at 8:00 AM, tx 3 putt said:

They also took away claiming personal mileage as a business expense 

When? In 1986? 

[Pig Bellmont 8691]

On 9/19/2018 at 8:55 AM, Bozo_Casanova said:

That’s pretty much it. The dialogue got too toxic, the debates didn’t have enough substance and it he told me wasn’t fun for him anymore.
it’s a shame, I miss having him around. Washparkhorn also.

Bump - I’m confused with this current board’s iteration of washpark as a Bernie Bro. You can’t post for years as a conservative/libertarian and suddenly be all in for a socialist democrat trolling other Dems supporting Biden. Anyone care to explain?